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Thread: Ukraine: Russian Invasion

  1. #23021
    rufuske's Avatar
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    I just witnessed some people arguing that main battle tank is not a heavy tank, so not heavy armour. I don't know anymore what is the reality I live in or whether I should be given some medication.

  2. #23022

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    I just witnessed some people arguing that main battle tank is not a heavy tank, so not heavy armour. I don't know anymore what is the reality I live in or whether I should be given some medication.
    They confuse German word "Panzer" with tank. "Panzer" literally translates as "armor. The Marder is an IFV, not a tank, it's "Schützenpanzer".
    So all are Panzers, but not all Panzers are tanks.

    More "Panzers" to the fry:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarV...ably_bulgaria/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarV...ish_bmc_kirpi/

  3. #23023
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    I'm not talking about IFV, I'm talking about MBTs. MAIN BATTLE TANKS. I don't even...

  4. #23024
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    Well, the doctrinal concept of the heavy tank died with WWII and the development of the MBT from the medium tanks. There were some heavy tanks during the Cold War and current MBTs weigh more than heavy tanks of WWII. However, the doctrinal concept of the heavy tank is dead. Heavy tanks were tanks designed to fight lighter tanks and defensive positions. With the higher speed maneuver warfare and combined arms doctrines following WWII (and even during WWII) those tanks were quickly obsolete. Often, they were relegated to defensive work as pillboxes. Medium tanks were perfectly capable of taking out other tanks regardless of weight (see Sherman & T34 vs Tiger discussions) and modern tactics avoid strongpoints for fast strikes at rear elements to disrupt command, control, communications and logistics. Modern MBTs carry the heaviest non-artillery guns that are reasonable with thick armor while keeping mobility high.

    Technically of course a modern MBT is heavy, a Leopard 2 weighs 63t, a Tiger I weighed 57t. But doctrine wise a modern MBT isn't a heavy tank. The discussion around the AMX10 RC and its use etc. is pretty dumb as well. Is it a light tank, is it a reconnaissance vehicle, can it defeat Russian armor etc.
    nevar forget

  5. #23025

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Gaah! It's so annoying I just have to vent. Sweden has hundreds of CV 90's and we don't even have personell for more than half of them ATM. It's a far superiour IFV to anything the rest of the west has and now we're on our second government that refuses to even talk about sending them. And we can produce them and replace them pretty effin quickly as well. Fkn short sighted, cheapskated cowardly politicians.

    It's a bloody perfect chassis for the Ukranians that can do everything from AA drone hunting to mortars shelling trenches.
    I'm sure it is a mature platform, but CV90 has 40mm/35mm or 30m autocannon. Already promised Bradley has 25mm and Marder has 20mm. So logistic will be a pain in the a$$. When Germany sent Ghepards we had problems with 35 mm. ammo because is swiss made and they deny delivery because "neutrality". Next time let's check if ammo is domestic made and avaible in large supply.

  6. #23026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Well, the doctrinal concept of the heavy tank died with WWII and the development of the MBT from the medium tanks. There were some heavy tanks during the Cold War and current MBTs weigh more than heavy tanks of WWII. However, the doctrinal concept of the heavy tank is dead. Heavy tanks were tanks designed to fight lighter tanks and defensive positions. With the higher speed maneuver warfare and combined arms doctrines following WWII (and even during WWII) those tanks were quickly obsolete. Often, they were relegated to defensive work as pillboxes. Medium tanks were perfectly capable of taking out other tanks regardless of weight (see Sherman & T34 vs Tiger discussions) and modern tactics avoid strongpoints for fast strikes at rear elements to disrupt command, control, communications and logistics. Modern MBTs carry the heaviest non-artillery guns that are reasonable with thick armor while keeping mobility high.

    Technically of course a modern MBT is heavy, a Leopard 2 weighs 63t, a Tiger I weighed 57t. But doctrine wise a modern MBT isn't a heavy tank. The discussion around the AMX10 RC and its use etc. is pretty dumb as well. Is it a light tank, is it a reconnaissance vehicle, can it defeat Russian armor etc.
    So, would you consider MBT heavy armour or not? Ah, fuck it, judging where thing are headed, Poland will again misplace a lot of it's tank inventory. This time cat kind along with PT91s that haven't been missing already.

  7. #23027
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    Splitting hairs about what is and isn't a tank is meaningless to Ukraine. They just want anything that has a gun.

    Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

  8. #23028
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    And moves fast.

  9. #23029

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    The role of MBT is the same from day 1 and because NATO/US fought in asymmetric wars in past 30 years it doesn't means the concept is dead. There are hundreds of vids from Ukraine where MBT is bashing trench at point blank.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/hot/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFoota...e_followed_by/

  10. #23030
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  11. #23031
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    Finland willing to donate Leo's of other countries donates with them.
    Polands willing to donate 240 (Assuming they waiting for their K2's to arrive first)
    Why is it called earth, when it is mostly water???

  12. #23032

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Gaah! It's so annoying I just have to vent. Sweden has hundreds of CV 90's and we don't even have personell for more than half of them ATM. It's a far superiour IFV to anything the rest of the west has and now we're on our second government that refuses to even talk about sending them. And we can produce them and replace them pretty effin quickly as well. Fkn short sighted, cheapskated cowardly politicians.

    It's a bloody perfect chassis for the Ukranians that can do everything from AA drone hunting to mortars shelling trenches.
    I'm sure it is a mature platform, but CV90 has 40mm/35mm or 30m autocannon. Already promised Bradley has 25mm and Marder has 20mm. So logistic will be a pain in the a$$. When Germany sent Ghepards we had problems with 35 mm. ammo because is swiss made and they deny delivery because "neutrality". Next time let's check if ammo is domestic made and avaible in large supply.
    It's a BOFORS 40mm. Ammo has been made since the 1950's, license built in dozens of countries. It's not some custom made Swiss cheese grater... Even mentioning them in the same paragraph makes no sense.

  13. #23033
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Well, the doctrinal concept of the heavy tank died with WWII and the development of the MBT from the medium tanks. There were some heavy tanks during the Cold War and current MBTs weigh more than heavy tanks of WWII. However, the doctrinal concept of the heavy tank is dead. Heavy tanks were tanks designed to fight lighter tanks and defensive positions. With the higher speed maneuver warfare and combined arms doctrines following WWII (and even during WWII) those tanks were quickly obsolete. Often, they were relegated to defensive work as pillboxes. Medium tanks were perfectly capable of taking out other tanks regardless of weight (see Sherman & T34 vs Tiger discussions) and modern tactics avoid strongpoints for fast strikes at rear elements to disrupt command, control, communications and logistics. Modern MBTs carry the heaviest non-artillery guns that are reasonable with thick armor while keeping mobility high.

    Technically of course a modern MBT is heavy, a Leopard 2 weighs 63t, a Tiger I weighed 57t. But doctrine wise a modern MBT isn't a heavy tank. The discussion around the AMX10 RC and its use etc. is pretty dumb as well. Is it a light tank, is it a reconnaissance vehicle, can it defeat Russian armor etc.
    So, would you consider MBT heavy armour or not? Ah, fuck it, judging where thing are headed, Poland will again misplace a lot of it's tank inventory. This time cat kind along with PT91s that haven't been missing already.
    MBTs are MBTs, not heavy tanks otherwise they’d be called that. I already explained why.
    nevar forget

  14. #23034
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    Isn´t it nice when people discuss semantics and definitions of words in different languages that do not use exchangeable names and definitions of anyway arbitrary sets of no-really-norms from different points of view?
    Could read that shit for hours.

  15. #23035

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    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  16. #23036
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    On the first day of orthodox christmas my true love gave to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    And a partridge in a pear tree
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  17. #23037

  18. #23038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Isn´t it nice when people discuss semantics and definitions of words in different languages that do not use exchangeable names and definitions of anyway arbitrary sets of no-really-norms from different points of view?
    Could read that shit for hours.
    I'm sticking to English and how the terms are used. Let's not get into what France calls the AMX10 RC and how it is called in English and German.
    nevar forget

  19. #23039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    nevar forget

  20. #23040

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    Quote Originally Posted by VARRAKK View Post
    Finland willing to donate Leo's of other countries donates with them.
    Polands willing to donate 240 (Assuming they waiting for their K2's to arrive first)
    The real question is will Germany issue the reexport certificate?

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