hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 69

Thread: The Non-shit Ukraine thread

  1. #1
    Kai's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 2, 2012
    Posts
    5,981

    The Non-shit Ukraine thread

    Helgur made a valiant attempt but it's almost certainly doomed to fail.

    Post thoughts / questions on whats happening in the Ukraine here.

    Still of the opinion if you read this through a realist lense, not much out of the ordinary is going on. Only key difference is we no longer think the 'ordinary' way of international politics is 'normal' anymore.

  2. #2
    Donor cullnean's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    The tower of power, too sweet to be sour, ohhhh yeahh!
    Posts
    14,599
    This thread is pointless

    Sent from my HUAWEI P6-U06 using Tapatalk

  3. #3

    Join Date
    August 5, 2013
    Posts
    5,144
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?

  4. #4
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    15,070
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.

    I agree with cull that this thread is pointless - the main point of the other thread is to bait Razor.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    August 5, 2013
    Posts
    5,144
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.

    I agree with cull that this thread is pointless - the main point of the other thread is to bait Razor.
    Okay didn't realise.

    And yeah plus its quite depressing how little the "west" is doing to help. I mean its nice to keep up to date with current affairs but since we aren't even Sabre rattling then...well... its a bit sad.

    Its not even like its their (Ukraine) own fault really , they just have a really corrupt government so its not like they could even into EU/Nato if they wanted.

    I just hope it doesn't end up in nukes, whatever happens. Such a shitty way to go.

  6. #6
    Synapse's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,111
    I look forward to a thread with less bear-baiting.

    1) State of loans? I remember Ukraine had to pay 15bn or something? They got 1bn from Europe and 1bn from the usa...does that leave them 13bn in debt to Russia still or is it more likely my memory is faulty?
    2) "Separatist" confirmations? Have we had any direct identifications of people being arrested or shot as part of the government buildings takeover. Several people died over the weekend on both sides...I suspect some of them are being identified.

    Will be interesting to know if the resulting ID shows a Russian or Ukrainian citizen. Even then, it wouldn't be hard at this point for Russia to be organizing and funding Ukrainians who want to do this...so ID and sourcing on the weapons and gear he was using would also be interesting.

    I see a lot of people in matching fatigues and combat boots with AKs marching around in images as "volunteers". Either someone is outfitting them or accurate military outfits are the latest fad.

  7. #7
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    The Motherland, OOS
    Posts
    25,209
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.
    hahaha

    Everybody should chill. Noone is interested in my input because i'm way too biased so i won't post here.

  8. #8
    Synapse's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,111
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.
    hahaha

    Everybody should chill. Noone is interested in my input because i'm way too biased so i won't post here.
    Quite interested in your input, so long as you keep the trolling out. That's the point here.

  9. #9
    SAI Peregrinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 13, 2011
    Posts
    1,476
    When this whole thing started I was reminded of the manual for the old SU-27 Flanker game, IIRC it included a good-sized section on why they set it in the Crimea. IIRC it was mostly about the strategic control over the region that is afforded by controlling Crimea being quite high. Might be interesting if anyone can find a copy.

  10. #10
    Paradox's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 24, 2011
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Devonshire
    Posts
    6,800
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.
    hahaha

    Everybody should chill. Noone is interested in my input because i'm way too biased so i won't post here.
    Your input might be among the most interesting if you can offer any insight.

    The other thread obviously isn't interested in that.

    Personally I would like to know your opinion on the assertion that the armed protesters that we see are Russian armed forces personnel.

    The new Ukrainian government doesn't seem interested in accusing Russia of planting agents, but maybe they have been and the sources I read haven't been reporting it.

    Edit: also I don't know how much TV you watch but I'd be interested to know how the media/ news in Russia is spinning it.
    Last edited by Paradox; April 15 2014 at 12:27:09 AM.


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  11. #11
    Keorythe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.
    hahaha

    Everybody should chill. Noone is interested in my input because i'm way too biased so i won't post here.
    Your input might be among the most interesting if you can offer any insight.

    The other thread obviously isn't interested in that.

    Personally I would like to know your opinion on the assertion that the armed protesters that we see are Russian armed forces personnel.

    The new Ukrainian government doesn't seem interested in accusing Russia of planting agents, but maybe they have been and the sources I read haven't been reporting it.

    Edit: also I don't know how much TV you watch but I'd be interested to know how the media/ news in Russia is spinning it.
    They have actually made those claims but not nearly as aggressively as we see in western media. The problem is that they've had plenty of defections from their own police forces including SBU units. Those could theoretically incite and direct others. So more than likely they're holding back on getting too aggressive with their own accusations. There's also the whole "west sponsored Euromaiden" that they have to contend with and the probably don't want to go down that same road of throwing the exact same accusations.

    But that brings us to the issue of para-militias. Those things were tightly controlled in Ukraine and especially in Russia. For them to suddenly appear well armed and organized points to an outside force giving orders and planning. That's far outside the realm of any SBU units whose specialties. And make no mistake, compared to the barely organized mob of Euromaiden, these groups are light years ahead. We aren't seeing any sort of social media being used as communications or organization like we did with Euromaiden and there doesn't seem to be any central figures to have a dialogue. So draw your conclusions from that.

  12. #12
    Synapse's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,111
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.
    hahaha

    Everybody should chill. Noone is interested in my input because i'm way too biased so i won't post here.
    Your input might be among the most interesting if you can offer any insight.

    The other thread obviously isn't interested in that.

    Personally I would like to know your opinion on the assertion that the armed protesters that we see are Russian armed forces personnel.

    The new Ukrainian government doesn't seem interested in accusing Russia of planting agents, but maybe they have been and the sources I read haven't been reporting it.

    Edit: also I don't know how much TV you watch but I'd be interested to know how the media/ news in Russia is spinning it.
    They have actually made those claims but not nearly as aggressively as we see in western media. The problem is that they've had plenty of defections from their own police forces including SBU units. Those could theoretically incite and direct others. So more than likely they're holding back on getting too aggressive with their own accusations. There's also the whole "west sponsored Euromaiden" that they have to contend with and the probably don't want to go down that same road of throwing the exact same accusations.

    But that brings us to the issue of para-militias. Those things were tightly controlled in Ukraine and especially in Russia. For them to suddenly appear well armed and organized points to an outside force giving orders and planning. That's far outside the realm of any SBU units whose specialties. And make no mistake, compared to the barely organized mob of Euromaiden, these groups are light years ahead. We aren't seeing any sort of social media being used as communications or organization like we did with Euromaiden and there doesn't seem to be any central figures to have a dialogue. So draw your conclusions from that.
    Exactly my take on it.

    I don't really need the accusations in any media to conclude they seem to be organized and funded by some competent government. What I understand less is why no one is going to the next step of posting the whole charade. Crackdown on one of the better funded looking groups, take some of their stuff and post the resulting proof that they wouldn't have had it.

  13. #13
    Kai's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 2, 2012
    Posts
    5,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4m View Post
    You do realize Razor can post here too, right?
    Pretty sure he was banned long ago.
    hahaha

    Everybody should chill. Noone is interested in my input because i'm way too biased so i won't post here.
    Your input might be among the most interesting if you can offer any insight.

    The other thread obviously isn't interested in that.

    Personally I would like to know your opinion on the assertion that the armed protesters that we see are Russian armed forces personnel.

    The new Ukrainian government doesn't seem interested in accusing Russia of planting agents, but maybe they have been and the sources I read haven't been reporting it.

    Edit: also I don't know how much TV you watch but I'd be interested to know how the media/ news in Russia is spinning it.
    They have actually made those claims but not nearly as aggressively as we see in western media. The problem is that they've had plenty of defections from their own police forces including SBU units. Those could theoretically incite and direct others. So more than likely they're holding back on getting too aggressive with their own accusations. There's also the whole "west sponsored Euromaiden" that they have to contend with and the probably don't want to go down that same road of throwing the exact same accusations.

    But that brings us to the issue of para-militias. Those things were tightly controlled in Ukraine and especially in Russia. For them to suddenly appear well armed and organized points to an outside force giving orders and planning. That's far outside the realm of any SBU units whose specialties. And make no mistake, compared to the barely organized mob of Euromaiden, these groups are light years ahead. We aren't seeing any sort of social media being used as communications or organization like we did with Euromaiden and there doesn't seem to be any central figures to have a dialogue. So draw your conclusions from that.
    Exactly my take on it.

    I don't really need the accusations in any media to conclude they seem to be organized and funded by some competent government. What I understand less is why no one is going to the next step of posting the whole charade. Crackdown on one of the better funded looking groups, take some of their stuff and post the resulting proof that they wouldn't have had it.
    Because step one of your plan: 'Crackdown on one of the better funded looking groups' requires major firefights in populated urban centres. That takes some time to do right (where right includes: not needlessly endangering your own citizens, not triggering massive Russian reaction). As the ambush of the assault team a couple of days ago showed; the Ukrainian SF is also needing to clean house first because otherwise their OPSEC is screwed.

    Edit: given events of the last few days (ie. retaking the airfield) a lot of this stuff should be falling into Ukrainian hands. Which is about 7 days after the start - and about 5 days after the ambush slowed things down.
    Last edited by Kai; April 16 2014 at 12:06:45 AM.

  14. #14
    ValorousBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Location
    ( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)
    Posts
    4,421
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    There's also the whole "west sponsored Euromaiden" that they have to contend with and the probably don't want to go down that same road of throwing the exact same accusations.
    Ok this was mentioned in the main thread, but I want to ask here. Does anyone seriously think the US was NOT involved in the Euromaiden protests? I'm not into the ~tinfoil~ stuff and I'm not saying the American government started the whole thing, but the CIA is one of the most brazen and reckless intelligence agencies in history. They have a hefty resume of inciting discontent and rebellion against enemy regimes. Assisting the Euromaiden seems like low-hanging-fruit compared to some of the other shit the CIA has gotten themselves into, and yet I see people dismissing western involvement in the Euromaiden as totally ridiculous.

  15. #15
    Donor AmaNutin's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 21, 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,600
    In other news: more coverage in Vice News of Eastern Ukraine (27)
    Audacter calumniare, semper aliquid haeret

    "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt"
    Bertrand Russell - the Triumph of Stupidity (1933)

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity." -Yeats, 1919


    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    I find it incredible that a whole country can actually be more retarded than FHC.

  16. #16
    Badboy K's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    1,412
    what a clusterfuck situation

  17. #17
    Donor TheManFromDelmonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    4,710
    What exactly do you mean by involvement?

    Advice on building burning tyre barriers? I don't think the cia have much experience with that.

    Advice on printing leaflets and using twitter to build support? Well it's not exactly cia work but sure some ngos would help out. Those ngos can have cia embedded in them, with or without the knowledge of the ngo themselves.

    Weapons and money? Uf they do this they do it at the top and the people at the top have plenty of money and access to weapons and military jackets and riot shields.

    Basically I can't see any way in which cia involvement would actually matter. The thousands of protesters didn't stick it out for months because their cia handler told them too. The euromaiden group was downright angry when more corrupt industry captains got into government after the president ran away, even if they were western friendly. Only the election promise has kept them quiet and it remains to be seen how quiet they'll be once the results are in.

    Finally, if it was a cia orchestrated revolt they must have loved it when public protest was banned. It made their job a lot easier.

    Even treating western involvement as something worth discussing is to accept the Russian idea that it should have exclusive influence over its neighbouring countries. Ukraine borders europe, it carries a lot of gas to europe, its president banned protest. That's plenty of reason for europe and allies to do something, and no less reason than Russia has to do something.
    Last edited by TheManFromDelmonte; April 19 2014 at 11:25:04 AM.

  18. #18
    ValorousBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Location
    ( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)
    Posts
    4,421
    Quote Originally Posted by TheManFromDelmonte View Post
    What exactly do you mean by involvement?
    Help with organizing defense of the square against the police, setting up the logistics chain that supplied the protesters, possibly help making sure the extremists didn't take over, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManFromDelmonte View Post
    Finally, if it was a cia orchestrated revolt they must have loved it when public protest was banned. It made their job a lot easier.
    Again, I don't think the CIA orchestrated the whole thing, but they are oppurtunists.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManFromDelmonte View Post
    Even treating western involvement as something worth discussing is to accept the Russian idea that it should have exclusive influence over its neighbouring countries. Ukraine borders europe, it carries a lot of gas to europe, its president banned protest. That's plenty of reason for europe and allies to do something, and no less reason than Russia has to do something.
    First, I think it's worth acknowledging, but yeah not necessarily worth discussing beyond the fact that it probably happened. Second, the existence of western help does not, in any way, justify the Russian idea that it should have an exclusive sphere of influence. I agree that the west has a lot of good reasons for being involved in Ukraine, and Russia's claim to the contrary is just hurf blurf.

  19. #19
    Keorythe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by ValorousBob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheManFromDelmonte View Post
    What exactly do you mean by involvement?
    Help with organizing defense of the square against the police, setting up the logistics chain that supplied the protesters, possibly help making sure the extremists didn't take over, etc.
    Negative on all accounts. The defense was very disorganized and not particularly good. Several of the feeble attempts the police made had no real effort behind it and the one time police used an APC it was firebombed with cocktails. The logistics train was well documented and we saw how the protesters often operated on a shoestring budget as far as food, bottles, and equipment went. Their diets were primarily of bread which was made by several local bakeries on their side of things. Other food stuffs was brought in by family and volunteers. Those that put it together are known and if there was a CIA plant then they would have stuck out (and Russia would have their face plastered everywhere).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManFromDelmonte View Post
    Finally, if it was a cia orchestrated revolt they must have loved it when public protest was banned. It made their job a lot easier.
    Again, I don't think the CIA orchestrated the whole thing, but they are oppurtunists.
    Most definitely they are opportunists. But Euromaiden took off and took on a life of its own within a very short period. Clandestine operations don't get put together in that short of a time without being very overt.

    The fact is that the US never had the close ties to manipulate the area like Russia does. Claiming that the whole affair was a CIA operation or supported by them has little to stand on. But one of the first things you do to an enemy is discredit them. Consider the history of Russia and Ukraine then bring in the big bad boogeyman of the CIA. Could you imagine the perspective if Texas or California was attempting to succeed and the US government suddenly claimed it was a KGB backed operation? When you tell the pro-Russian groups in Ukraine and in your home Russia, it makes the Russian side appear the victim and makes the other side as nothing more than outsider puppets. They claimed this same narrative during their Crimea takeover.

  20. #20
    Donor AmaNutin's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 21, 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,600
    More Vice news (dispatch 28)

    Audacter calumniare, semper aliquid haeret

    "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt"
    Bertrand Russell - the Triumph of Stupidity (1933)

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity." -Yeats, 1919


    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    I find it incredible that a whole country can actually be more retarded than FHC.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •