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  1. #781
    Donor Nu11u5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    I don't think they'll have any main characters in this series proudly admitting they were terrorists.
    They did that like 20 years ago. Kira Nerys on DS9 was a former Bajoran resistance fighter, assassin, and terrorist bomber, she was explicitly stated to have done all of those things on screen.
    So you didn't read the last page of this thread where we're talking about Kira. Pretty sure Kira is the Grendel's point.
    Exactly. Unlike Tom Zarek in BSG Kira is definitely one of the 'good guys' as well as being unrepentant over her actions. There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    BSG clearly has a Caprican bias and has it out for Sagittarions.

    (not all that joking - most of the show's main characters were Caprican and the story called out their actions and motivation on more than one occasion)


    ..also I had pointed out that the insurgency on New Caprica is a better example of "good guy" terrorism from that show.
    Last edited by Nu11u5; January 2 2017 at 12:48:22 AM.

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    I really doubt it. I think people are too quick to believe a shitstorm will happen over something. You don't have to look very hard to see movies and shows throughout the years dealing with issues as sensitive as this, or even more so.

    Someone somewhere would complain about it, and someone somewhere else would make a big deal out of the fact that someone complained. Some internet warriors would freak out like they always do and everyone would move on in a week.
    Last edited by Frug; January 2 2017 at 03:05:30 AM.

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  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nu11u5 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    I don't think they'll have any main characters in this series proudly admitting they were terrorists.
    They did that like 20 years ago. Kira Nerys on DS9 was a former Bajoran resistance fighter, assassin, and terrorist bomber, she was explicitly stated to have done all of those things on screen.
    So you didn't read the last page of this thread where we're talking about Kira. Pretty sure Kira is the Grendel's point.
    Exactly. Unlike Tom Zarek in BSG Kira is definitely one of the 'good guys' as well as being unrepentant over her actions. There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    BSG clearly has a Caprican bias and has it out for Sagittarions.

    (not all that joking - most of the show's main characters were Caprican and the story called out their actions and motivation on more than one occasion)


    ..also I had pointed out that the insurgency on New Caprica is a better example of "good guy" terrorism from that show.
    I actually liked that episode when it was revealed Baltar was from Space-Yorkshire and spent much of his childhood hiding his bumpkin accent so he could fit in with the Capricans.
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  4. #784
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nu11u5 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    I don't think they'll have any main characters in this series proudly admitting they were terrorists.
    They did that like 20 years ago. Kira Nerys on DS9 was a former Bajoran resistance fighter, assassin, and terrorist bomber, she was explicitly stated to have done all of those things on screen.
    So you didn't read the last page of this thread where we're talking about Kira. Pretty sure Kira is the Grendel's point.
    Exactly. Unlike Tom Zarek in BSG Kira is definitely one of the 'good guys' as well as being unrepentant over her actions. There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    BSG clearly has a Caprican bias and has it out for Sagittarions.

    (not all that joking - most of the show's main characters were Caprican and the story called out their actions and motivation on more than one occasion)


    ..also I had pointed out that the insurgency on New Caprica is a better example of "good guy" terrorism from that show.
    I actually liked that episode when it was revealed Baltar was from Space-Yorkshire and spent much of his childhood hiding his bumpkin accent so he could fit in with the Capricans.
    same! i also quite liked the prequel stuff that went into adamas tauron upbringing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    I don't think they'll have any main characters in this series proudly admitting they were terrorists.
    They did that like 20 years ago. Kira Nerys on DS9 was a former Bajoran resistance fighter, assassin, and terrorist bomber, she was explicitly stated to have done all of those things on screen.
    So you didn't read the last page of this thread where we're talking about Kira. Pretty sure Kira is the Grendel's point.
    Exactly. Unlike Tom Zarek in BSG Kira is definitely one of the 'good guys' as well as being unrepentant over her actions. There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    Would depend on execution.

    People love Freedom Fighters. People HATE Terrorists.

    People love George Washington. People hate Fidel Castro.

    People love the Rebellion. People hate the First Order.

    People love the French Resistance. People hate ISIS.

    All comes down to how the freedom fighter/terrorist is portrayed, if their "side" is portrayed as the "good guys" in the fight or not. If their cause is portrayed as justified and righteous. And if they are portrayed by and in a way that the majority of teh audience can sympathize and empathize with (i.e. in American TV this generally means attractive, white men and women fighting for "freedom" from oppression).

    TLDR: Nuest Trek could do it easily without a word of objection if they did it as they've done it in the past. If, however, the cast a brown-skinned Islamic actor as the "good guy" fighting the evil oppression of the all-white Federation, then you're average chucklehead would protest.




  6. #786
    Movember '11 Ginger Excellence Movember 2011Movember 2012 sarabando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    I don't think they'll have any main characters in this series proudly admitting they were terrorists.
    They did that like 20 years ago. Kira Nerys on DS9 was a former Bajoran resistance fighter, assassin, and terrorist bomber, she was explicitly stated to have done all of those things on screen.
    So you didn't read the last page of this thread where we're talking about Kira. Pretty sure Kira is the Grendel's point.
    Exactly. Unlike Tom Zarek in BSG Kira is definitely one of the 'good guys' as well as being unrepentant over her actions. There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    Would depend on execution.

    People love Freedom Fighters. People HATE Terrorists.

    People love George Washington. People hate Fidel Castro.

    People love the Rebellion. People hate the First Order.

    People love the French Resistance. People hate ISIS.

    All comes down to how the freedom fighter/terrorist is portrayed, if their "side" is portrayed as the "good guys" in the fight or not. If their cause is portrayed as justified and righteous. And if they are portrayed by and in a way that the majority of teh audience can sympathize and empathize with (i.e. in American TV this generally means attractive, white men and women fighting for "freedom" from oppression).

    TLDR: Nuest Trek could do it easily without a word of objection if they did it as they've done it in the past. If, however, the cast a brown-skinned Islamic actor as the "good guy" fighting the evil oppression of the all-white Federation, then you're average chucklehead would protest.
    I think this is why this guy made such a good bad guy in DS9


    Even Garek and Dumar touch on this when they end up getting Kira to help them train their Cardassian resistance.

  7. #787

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grendelfreak View Post
    There would be a phenomenal shitstorm if Star Trek tried to have a similar character today.
    I really doubt it. I think people are too quick to believe a shitstorm will happen over something. You don't have to look very hard to see movies and shows throughout the years dealing with issues as sensitive as this, or even more so.

    Someone somewhere would complain about it, and someone somewhere else would make a big deal out of the fact that someone complained. Some internet warriors would freak out like they always do and everyone would move on in a week.
    Indeed. "shitstorm" is basically a given just about with everything these days, sometimes just for the sake of it. Decision makers shouldn't base their decisions on potential shitstorms happening. Not saying there aren't any justified ones. But the signal/noise ratio has become worse in the past couple of years. Not exclusively caused by, but at least heavily supported by the armies of Twitter/FB/<whatever> posting bots.
    Last edited by Hel OWeen; January 4 2017 at 03:37:10 PM. Reason: Typos

  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Indeed. "shitstorm" is basically a given just about with everything these days, sometimes just for the sake of it.
    10 people out of millions complaining about a thing is not a shitstorm. The media talking about 10 people because they have nothing better to do is also not a shitstorm. It's bored people talking about a thing.

    The only given is that people call it a shitstorm. I think it's because they think it's more than 10 people when it's not, or they're really bored and want it to be a shitstorm so they'll have something to talk about - something safe to point at and say "omg a shitstorm".

    But then everyone starts saying it's some kind of shitstorm when it's more like a butterfly's fart. Then suddenly everything's a shitstorm and omg life is so hard because someone wrote an angry tweet.

    Kirk kissing Uhura was probably more of a shitstorm than having a character announce they were a terrorist when their planet was basically occupied by nazis would be today. Obviously it depends on execution, but we're talking about Kira. She didn't exactly extol the virtues of murdering innocents. The show basically bludgeons you with how great the Federation's code of ethics is. Nobody would get mad, except those 10 random people on twitter and maybe some moron on Fox News.
    Last edited by Frug; January 6 2017 at 07:23:59 AM.

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  9. #789
    Movember '11 Ginger Excellence Movember 2011Movember 2012 sarabando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Indeed. "shitstorm" is basically a given just about with everything these days, sometimes just for the sake of it.
    10 people out of millions complaining about a thing is not a shitstorm. The media talking about 10 people because they have nothing better to do is also not a shitstorm. It's bored people talking about a thing.

    The only given is that people call it a shitstorm. I think it's because they think it's more than 10 people when it's not, or they're really bored and want it to be a shitstorm so they'll have something to talk about - something safe to point at and say "omg a shitstorm".

    But then everyone starts saying it's some kind of shitstorm when it's more like a butterfly's fart. Then suddenly everything's a shitstorm and omg life is so hard because someone wrote an angry tweet.

    Kirk kissing Uhura was probably more of a shitstorm than having a character announce they were a terrorist when their planet was basically occupied by nazis would be today. Obviously it depends on execution, but we're talking about Kira. She didn't exactly extol the virtues of murdering innocents. The show basically bludgeons you with how great the Federation's code of ethics is. Nobody would get mad, except those 10 random people on twitter and maybe some moron on Fox News.
    Which is why i like DS9 as Quark warns Nog that humans are great when the power is on and the replicators work but he needs to remember where they came from and they are very dangerous.

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    Looks like Axanar might well be fucked. Full copyright trial is ordered after the Judge decides it's not "fair use".
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...pyright-trial/

    Their argument is really, really weak tbh, so i suspect they are doomed.

  12. #792
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    So shit tbh, Axanar looked good

    (DISCLAIMER NOT IN A REPLACE NUTREK KIND OF WAY DEAR E-LAWYERS READING)
    "I think we could all do with sitting back a bit and detaching ourselves from the situation to really think about how these issues reflect on our future and how we discuss them here and be a bit less aggressive or defensive because everyone has a complicated set of circumstances that has led the to place importance on particular issues and it doesn't meany any of them is less valid, we just need to look at the broader picture"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalline Entity View Post
    So shit tbh, Axanar looked good
    Did it?

    It looked to me like a big pile of steamy poo


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  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalline Entity View Post
    So shit tbh, Axanar looked good
    Did it?

    It looked to me like a big pile of steamy poo
    For a fan made show/film or whatever it was, was an epic thing man. Watch Prelude to Axanar through the lens of a fan made production. Pretty damn well made.
    "I think we could all do with sitting back a bit and detaching ourselves from the situation to really think about how these issues reflect on our future and how we discuss them here and be a bit less aggressive or defensive because everyone has a complicated set of circumstances that has led the to place importance on particular issues and it doesn't meany any of them is less valid, we just need to look at the broader picture"

    Smuggo - Brexit Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Looks like Axanar might well be fucked. Full copyright trial is ordered after the Judge decides it's not "fair use".
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...pyright-trial/

    Their argument is really, really weak tbh, so i suspect they are doomed.
    FUCK! copyright laws are a pile of horseshit.


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    What the fucking fuck in the fuck fuck is going fucking on here?

  16. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalline Entity View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalline Entity View Post
    So shit tbh, Axanar looked good
    Did it?

    It looked to me like a big pile of steamy poo
    For a fan made show/film or whatever it was, was an epic thing man. Watch Prelude to Axanar through the lens of a fan made production. Pretty damn well made.
    If I wanted to see more WAAARRR pew pew pew I'd watch Star Wars. They do a better job of it.

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  17. #797

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Indeed. "shitstorm" is basically a given just about with everything these days, sometimes just for the sake of it.
    10 people out of millions complaining about a thing is not a shitstorm. The media talking about 10 people because they have nothing better to do is also not a shitstorm. It's bored people talking about a thing.

    The only given is that people call it a shitstorm. I think it's because they think it's more than 10 people when it's not, or they're really bored and want it to be a shitstorm so they'll have something to talk about - something safe to point at and say "omg a shitstorm".
    It's too easy to just "like" or "+1" soemthing these days. So 10 people write some similar shit and thousands "like" it and eve share it. If every "like" would require some written content (like I remember some forum software did/does), there would be less BS spread around.

    Kirk kissing Uhura was probably more of a shitstorm than having a character announce they were a terrorist when their planet was basically occupied by nazis would be today. Obviously it depends on execution, but we're talking about Kira. She didn't exactly extol the virtues of murdering innocents. The show basically bludgeons you with how great the Federation's code of ethics is. Nobody would get mad, except those 10 random people on twitter and maybe some moron on Fox News.
    Fortunately (for the show), DS9 chenged later on the narrative away from that black & white Cardassia = evil, Bajor = good. I always imagined Kira, being a Cardassian, as brutal and convinced about doing the right thing as she's done as a Bajoran resistance fighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeves View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Looks like Axanar might well be fucked. Full copyright trial is ordered after the Judge decides it's not "fair use".
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...pyright-trial/

    Their argument is really, really weak tbh, so i suspect they are doomed.
    FUCK! copyright laws are a pile of horseshit.
    They are, but in this case they are actually working as intended.

    This isnt a case of a big mean studio stamping out a fanmade project for no reason...Paramount allows plenty of fan projects.

    The Axanar team on the other hand are a purely for-profit setup. They sell Axanar branded merch, use the funds for salaries for the team members, and even tried to sell the show to Amazon and Netflix, all without any licensing permission.
    They even tried to hire away one of Paramounts writers.

    Throughout all this Paramount has sat down and spoken to them, and the Axanar owner has basically told them to fuck off.

    No sympathy at all, and for once copyright working correctly.

  19. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarabando View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Indeed. "shitstorm" is basically a given just about with everything these days, sometimes just for the sake of it.
    10 people out of millions complaining about a thing is not a shitstorm. The media talking about 10 people because they have nothing better to do is also not a shitstorm. It's bored people talking about a thing.

    The only given is that people call it a shitstorm. I think it's because they think it's more than 10 people when it's not, or they're really bored and want it to be a shitstorm so they'll have something to talk about - something safe to point at and say "omg a shitstorm".

    But then everyone starts saying it's some kind of shitstorm when it's more like a butterfly's fart. Then suddenly everything's a shitstorm and omg life is so hard because someone wrote an angry tweet.

    Kirk kissing Uhura was probably more of a shitstorm than having a character announce they were a terrorist when their planet was basically occupied by nazis would be today. Obviously it depends on execution, but we're talking about Kira. She didn't exactly extol the virtues of murdering innocents. The show basically bludgeons you with how great the Federation's code of ethics is. Nobody would get mad, except those 10 random people on twitter and maybe some moron on Fox News.
    Which is why i like DS9 as Quark warns Nog that humans are great when the power is on and the replicators work but he needs to remember where they came from and they are very dangerous.
    DS9 was the best Trek cause of this. It showed some self-awareness by demonstrating that the Federation is only wonderful because of comfortable circumstances, not because it has some innate special quality. But even then Section 31 shows that the Federation could never give up on the old ways

    I was hoping the franchise would move in this direction, but it looks like its going to be standard fare of boring exploration again

  20. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

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