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Thread: Star trek!

  1. #2361
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoffl View Post
    Another trek bites the dust


    Well at least Jean luc is on the horizon

    MI8m8
    I can’t find any official info on this yet.

    But if they cancel Discovery, they’re coming back to that timeline with the Georgiou spin-off, sooo...

    My bet is that all of this TOS-era Section 31 rumbling will then be echoed in the Picard show, as post-Dominion-War federation has backslid into authoritarianism due to S31 meddling and unaccountability. Given that S31 is run by an AI, it will be an allegory against letting computers take over the job of running the state and making moral decisions, because lol morally superior post-scarcity humans or something. Or who knows, maybe it will end up as an allegory in favor of FALGSC.
    I've always wanted that kind of Trek for a while. The problem with Trek is that they've never had to really fight for their values. The entire system is just there, all those nice egalitarian and pacifist ideas are entrenched already.

    The one-off episodes with S31 causing moral dilemmas or the crazy admirals never seem like a threat, because Picard or what have you always had an entire system behind them.

    They could write better stories if that whole system went poof and Picard had to go it alone against everyone in his chain of command
    Like in first contact?

  2. #2362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoffl View Post
    Another trek bites the dust


    Well at least Jean luc is on the horizon

    MI8m8
    I can’t find any official info on this yet.

    But if they cancel Discovery, they’re coming back to that timeline with the Georgiou spin-off, sooo...

    My bet is that all of this TOS-era Section 31 rumbling will then be echoed in the Picard show, as post-Dominion-War federation has backslid into authoritarianism due to S31 meddling and unaccountability. Given that S31 is run by an AI, it will be an allegory against letting computers take over the job of running the state and making moral decisions, because lol morally superior post-scarcity humans or something. Or who knows, maybe it will end up as an allegory in favor of FALGSC.
    I've always wanted that kind of Trek for a while. The problem with Trek is that they've never had to really fight for their values. The entire system is just there, all those nice egalitarian and pacifist ideas are entrenched already.

    The one-off episodes with S31 causing moral dilemmas or the crazy admirals never seem like a threat, because Picard or what have you always had an entire system behind them.

    They could write better stories if that whole system went poof and Picard had to go it alone against everyone in his chain of command
    Like in first contact?
    ???

    First Contact was about fighting the Borg, not crazy admirals with an agenda

    It was a pretty unambiguous and simple story

  3. #2363

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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post

    ???

    First Contact was about fighting the Borg, not crazy admirals with an agenda

    It was a pretty unambiguous and simple story


      Spoiler:



  4. #2364
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    First contact with the Vulcans is a MacGuffin. It has very little to do with the actual conflict driving the plot; just another “crew of the Enterprise saves the Earth” movie like.... oh, at least half of them (and at least as many episodes).

    And the story says fuck-all about the consequences of first contact; the next time the story picks up is in Enterprise, which is a full century later. At that point, even though the Federation doesn’t exist, it’s still presented as a largely utopian society. “The system” (read: Starfleet) exists already, and even in the darker bits of DS9, it’s never really challenged—or even explained, for that matter.

    So if they want to tell a story about actually threatening the fundamental assumptions underlying the utopian premises, they’d either have to tell the story of the 21st century after first contact (timeline note: the court depicted in Encounter at Farpoint with Q as magistrate existed almost 20 years after the Vulcans showed up, and things were still ‘getting worse’ in most of the world), or tell it in the later timeline but create something that actually threatens the fabric of the social system.

  5. #2365
    Movember '11 Ginger Excellence Movember 2011Movember 2012 sarabando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    First contact with the Vulcans is a MacGuffin. It has very little to do with the actual conflict driving the plot; just another “crew of the Enterprise saves the Earth” movie like.... oh, at least half of them (and at least as many episodes).

    And the story says fuck-all about the consequences of first contact; the next time the story picks up is in Enterprise, which is a full century later. At that point, even though the Federation doesn’t exist, it’s still presented as a largely utopian society. “The system” (read: Starfleet) exists already, and even in the darker bits of DS9, it’s never really challenged—or even explained, for that matter.

    So if they want to tell a story about actually threatening the fundamental assumptions underlying the utopian premises, they’d either have to tell the story of the 21st century after first contact (timeline note: the court depicted in Encounter at Farpoint with Q as magistrate existed almost 20 years after the Vulcans showed up, and things were still ‘getting worse’ in most of the world), or tell it in the later timeline but create something that actually threatens the fabric of the social system.
    you must of missed the DS9 episodes where Starfleet nearly goes full facists and has troops in the streets conducting blood tests, arresting people, using cadets for false flag attacks etc. Or the episode where Sisko fully fakes intelligence to drag an completely independent nation into his war.

  6. #2366
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    A few scenes well worth rewatching.

    Question is though, does it work primarily because it's so different from normal trek expectations?

  7. #2367
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarabando View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    First contact with the Vulcans is a MacGuffin. It has very little to do with the actual conflict driving the plot; just another “crew of the Enterprise saves the Earth” movie like.... oh, at least half of them (and at least as many episodes).

    And the story says fuck-all about the consequences of first contact; the next time the story picks up is in Enterprise, which is a full century later. At that point, even though the Federation doesn’t exist, it’s still presented as a largely utopian society. “The system” (read: Starfleet) exists already, and even in the darker bits of DS9, it’s never really challenged—or even explained, for that matter.

    So if they want to tell a story about actually threatening the fundamental assumptions underlying the utopian premises, they’d either have to tell the story of the 21st century after first contact (timeline note: the court depicted in Encounter at Farpoint with Q as magistrate existed almost 20 years after the Vulcans showed up, and things were still ‘getting worse’ in most of the world), or tell it in the later timeline but create something that actually threatens the fabric of the social system.
    you must of missed the DS9 episodes where Starfleet nearly goes full facists and has troops in the streets conducting blood tests, arresting people, using cadets for false flag attacks etc. Or the episode where Sisko fully fakes intelligence to drag an completely independent nation into his war.
    Nope, I remember those episodes, and I suspect those events will be revisited going forward.

    My point is that those episodes and that arc didn’t really have the impact they could/should have, because they were in some sense “justified” by a legitimate collective threat.

  8. #2368

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabando View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    First contact with the Vulcans is a MacGuffin. It has very little to do with the actual conflict driving the plot; just another “crew of the Enterprise saves the Earth” movie like.... oh, at least half of them (and at least as many episodes).

    And the story says fuck-all about the consequences of first contact; the next time the story picks up is in Enterprise, which is a full century later. At that point, even though the Federation doesn’t exist, it’s still presented as a largely utopian society. “The system” (read: Starfleet) exists already, and even in the darker bits of DS9, it’s never really challenged—or even explained, for that matter.

    So if they want to tell a story about actually threatening the fundamental assumptions underlying the utopian premises, they’d either have to tell the story of the 21st century after first contact (timeline note: the court depicted in Encounter at Farpoint with Q as magistrate existed almost 20 years after the Vulcans showed up, and things were still ‘getting worse’ in most of the world), or tell it in the later timeline but create something that actually threatens the fabric of the social system.
    you must of missed the DS9 episodes where Starfleet nearly goes full facists and has troops in the streets conducting blood tests, arresting people, using cadets for false flag attacks etc. Or the episode where Sisko fully fakes intelligence to drag an completely independent nation into his war.
    Nope, I remember those episodes, and I suspect those events will be revisited going forward.

    My point is that those episodes and that arc didn’t really have the impact they could/should have, because they were in some sense “justified” by a legitimate collective threat.
    One of the fundamental assumptions of the fed ideology is that nothing justifies those things. That's the conflict inherent in those episodes.

  9. #2369
    Crystalline Entity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabando View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    First contact with the Vulcans is a MacGuffin. It has very little to do with the actual conflict driving the plot; just another “crew of the Enterprise saves the Earth” movie like.... oh, at least half of them (and at least as many episodes).

    And the story says fuck-all about the consequences of first contact; the next time the story picks up is in Enterprise, which is a full century later. At that point, even though the Federation doesn’t exist, it’s still presented as a largely utopian society. “The system” (read: Starfleet) exists already, and even in the darker bits of DS9, it’s never really challenged—or even explained, for that matter.

    So if they want to tell a story about actually threatening the fundamental assumptions underlying the utopian premises, they’d either have to tell the story of the 21st century after first contact (timeline note: the court depicted in Encounter at Farpoint with Q as magistrate existed almost 20 years after the Vulcans showed up, and things were still ‘getting worse’ in most of the world), or tell it in the later timeline but create something that actually threatens the fabric of the social system.
    you must of missed the DS9 episodes where Starfleet nearly goes full facists and has troops in the streets conducting blood tests, arresting people, using cadets for false flag attacks etc. Or the episode where Sisko fully fakes intelligence to drag an completely independent nation into his war.
    Nope, I remember those episodes, and I suspect those events will be revisited going forward.

    My point is that those episodes and that arc didn’t really have the impact they could/should have, because they were in some sense “justified” by a legitimate collective threat.
    One of the fundamental assumptions of the fed ideology is that nothing justifies those things. That's the conflict inherent in those episodes.
    And most of them are bloody good episodes tbh

    also we got


    Which was funny, because Layton was booked on B5 and DS9 at the same time
    "I think we could all do with sitting back a bit and detaching ourselves from the situation to really think about how these issues reflect on our future and how we discuss them here and be a bit less aggressive or defensive because everyone has a complicated set of circumstances that has led the to place importance on particular issues and it doesn't meany any of them is less valid, we just need to look at the broader picture"

    Smuggo - Brexit Thread

  10. #2370
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Last night's episode was a bit of a mess.

  11. #2371

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    wtf is earth english?they speak federation standard ffs.

  12. #2372
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Last night's episode was a bit of a mess.
    Shit is all over the place

    MI8m8

  13. #2373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikar View Post


    A few scenes well worth rewatching.

    Question is though, does it work primarily because it's so different from normal trek expectations?
    it works because it's a deeper examination of Trek's ideals with something other than a straw-man to compare them with. One of the things that DS9 does best is compare and contrast federation utopianism and examine it's fringes to show it's short comings and where it can be improved. The biggest thing though, especially in "the pale moonlight" is sacrifice, it's possible that one man may have to sacrifice his own personal ethics to defend that of others, because it is something worth preserving, and worth sacrificing for.

    What most people miss about a lot of DS9, is that it's not about why the federation is stupid, It's about self sacrifice, it's about why the federation is better, but sometimes on the edge of utopia, you have to sacrifice your own place in that utopia to preserve and expand it.

    In the end, all it cost was the lives of 1 senator, 1 criminal, and the self respect of one starfleet officer, and I'd call that, a bargain.

  14. #2374
    Movember '11 Ginger Excellence Movember 2011Movember 2012 sarabando's Avatar
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    season 2 of disco is growing on me i just wish they had a story group who understood cannon

  15. #2375
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Uhh I think they understand canon fairly well.

    Unless you’re complaining about the aesthetics.

  16. #2376
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarabando View Post
    season 2 of disco is growing on me i just wish they had a story group who understood cannon
    IMO disco would have been ok if they hadn't tried to pretend it was star trek, but I don't think it would have lasted more than half a season if they hadn't. Trek22 if it's not trek it wouldn't survive, if you call it trek everyone points out that you're an idiot and it doesn't survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Uhh I think they understand canon fairly well.

    Unless you’re complaining about the aesthetics.
    he's confusing understand with respect.

  17. #2377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Last night's episode was a bit of a mess.
    It was a roller coaster for sure, but it was also the first episode of Star Trek that disco's really managed (human colony was close though). Also the camerawork was not nearly as nausea inducing.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Do you even lift? Do you even post.
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    Ass ass ass.

  18. #2378
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    Agree, though I think Ep2 managed better.

    This one just had two or three episodes worth of stuff in it; the 15-episode-season limit is showing. This leads to things being unclear.

      Spoiler:
    Like with Saru’s ganglia. Was his recovery natural, just what happens when the condition is allowed to advance and run its course without being culled? Or was this an effect of the mushrooms? The ganglia withering looked a lot like the mushroom effects. Or was it because of the sphere? I *think* based on his later anger that it was just the natural course of things... but I’m not entirely sure.

    Guessing: assuming that’s the case, what do you want to bet the “predator” race on his planet (who are never actually seen) are just other Kelpians who know the “truth” about their biology?

  19. #2379
    Movember '11 Ginger Excellence Movember 2011Movember 2012 sarabando's Avatar
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    just started watching TNG again and just had "Planet of the negros" god this is pretty bad.

  20. #2380
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    Well try Best of Both Worlds or Inner Light...
    "I think we could all do with sitting back a bit and detaching ourselves from the situation to really think about how these issues reflect on our future and how we discuss them here and be a bit less aggressive or defensive because everyone has a complicated set of circumstances that has led the to place importance on particular issues and it doesn't meany any of them is less valid, we just need to look at the broader picture"

    Smuggo - Brexit Thread

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