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Thread: Naval Action

  1. #41
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by navalaction View Post
    But wasd is in the game. It's a standard now for action games - we will leave point and click for diablo 3.
    Thing is players on WASD will have advantages over those using realistic (especially unexperienced) which will create a large gap between the two control modes. If they were somehow artificially separated (ala War Thunder but that only works for session based games) or limited to one mast ships then there would be both an incentive to learn full controls and less community fracturing.

    So is this on the table? Looks like a huge issue to me, that's all.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Thing is players on WASD will have advantages over those using realistic (especially unexperienced) which will create a large gap between the two control modes. If they were somehow artificially separated (ala War Thunder but that only works for session based games) or limited to one mast ships then there would be both an incentive to learn full controls and less community fracturing.

    So is this on the table? Looks like a huge issue to me, that's all.
    That you have those.

  3. #43

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    WASD being easier but manual control giving better results when you master it would be fine with me. Might be too hard to balance though with a large player skill range.

  4. #44
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavolio View Post
    WASD being easier but manual control giving better results when you master it would be fine with me. Might be too hard to balance though with a large player skill range.
    There is a pretty small area where both used simultaneously would be a success instead of a big mess. For example there is a potential for macros if there are no user presets which can be thwarted by deep weather simulation. And the list goes on.

  5. #45
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    I would also prefer the war thunder style segregation of "arcade" "realistic" and "simulation".

    I can see it being shit though if its a small community, which a realistic age of sail game will be.

  6. #46
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    Razor is right, it's going to be very difficult to balance this even with War Thunder style gameplay modes.


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  7. #47
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Razor is right, it's going to be very difficult to balance this even with War Thunder style gameplay modes.
    Which is exactly the kind of shit that should be avoided in an open world MMO.

    However noone said you can't have an arcade session-based ~quick fight~ mode ride alongside a persistent MMO.

  8. #48
    Jurskjeld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Razor is right, it's going to be very difficult to balance this even with War Thunder style gameplay modes.
    Which is exactly the kind of shit that should be avoided in an open world MMO.

    However noone said you can't have an arcade session-based ~quick fight~ mode ride alongside a persistent MMO.
    You mean to leave the pubscum with a game mode of inferior content where wasd is allowed? Not that I'd be against such an arrangement.

    The potential of the game is great, but my fantasies are unlikely to be fulfilled by any business-minded developer. I don't think one can have simultaneous wasd and hardcore controls (not that such hardcore controls are necessarily being put in), unless the payoff for mastering hardcore controls is vastly greater. Which I guess has been said already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don
    ^robsably aboujt to throw up so goood night failheap IU love you all even you ctrlchris even iuf you keep bnegrrepping me for no reason

  9. #49
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurskjeld View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Razor is right, it's going to be very difficult to balance this even with War Thunder style gameplay modes.
    Which is exactly the kind of shit that should be avoided in an open world MMO.

    However noone said you can't have an arcade session-based ~quick fight~ mode ride alongside a persistent MMO.
    You mean to leave the pubscum with a game mode of inferior content where wasd is allowed? Not that I'd be against such an arrangement.

    The potential of the game is great, but my fantasies are unlikely to be fulfilled by any business-minded developer. I don't think one can have simultaneous wasd and hardcore controls (not that such hardcore controls are necessarily being put in), unless the payoff for mastering hardcore controls is vastly greater. Which I guess has been said already.
    No i mean to leave sloop and cutter newbies with it. Bigger ships would have much longer response time to sail adjustment anyway that would give plenty of time to set it up right.
    Last edited by RazoR; January 30 2014 at 02:20:17 AM.

  10. #50
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    A: Just saw this, all of my wants.

    B: Just make WASD respond slower and slower as the ship size goes up, and blam, balance. Although I guess combat potential is more important than size. Inb4 I pick up an Indiaman for gits and shiggles.

    C: Totally needs some form of expensive or time-intensive process to train crew in specific areas, possibly with related costs of some comical form such as angry admirals bitching at you for not keeping your ship clean due to so much training, or running out of powder to train gunners with. Something so that you can pull bullshit heroics against pubbies and not just get sunk by the first broadside (I'm looking at YOU, Jack Aubrey).

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody_Holme View Post
    A: Just saw this, all of my wants.

    B: Just make WASD respond slower and slower as the ship size goes up, and blam, balance. Although I guess combat potential is more important than size. Inb4 I pick up an Indiaman for gits and shiggles.

    C: Totally needs some form of expensive or time-intensive process to train crew in specific areas, possibly with related costs of some comical form such as angry admirals bitching at you for not keeping your ship clean due to so much training, or running out of powder to train gunners with. Something so that you can pull bullshit heroics against pubbies and not just get sunk by the first broadside (I'm looking at YOU, Jack Aubrey).
    This. Time to start my bi-annual Aubrey reread early.

    While I am skeptical that what I want from a sailing age game can be done at all, or what I actually want, I'm going to follow this closely.

  12. #52
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    20 books of fucking win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don
    ^robsably aboujt to throw up so goood night failheap IU love you all even you ctrlchris even iuf you keep bnegrrepping me for no reason

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miriam Sasko View Post

    While I am skeptical that what I want from a sailing age game can be done at all, or what I actually want, I'm going to follow this closely.
    i wonder if you guys could share that list of wants?

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by navalaction View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriam Sasko View Post

    While I am skeptical that what I want from a sailing age game can be done at all, or what I actually want, I'm going to follow this closely.
    i wonder if you guys could share that list of wants?
    I can start off with mine, which I suspect may be shared with a few others.

    1) At least semi realistic. By which I mean an attempt at proper sail characteristics, speeds, damage model etc. NOT an arcade game.
    2) A decent level of customisation, but not at the expense of all realism. So cutting in half a line ship to make a fast Razee frigate is fine, changing guns, sails, sailing characteristics etc....but please no super fast, glass cannon sloops loaded with carronades or the like making everything into nano-fag warfare (eve reference, it means uncatchable, well armed hit and run ships that carry very little risk in using them).
    3) Some kind of crew progression system that isn't terrible, and isn't just Warcraft style "you leveled up, now you can fire better shot from your cannons by pressing 4".

    Um...in all honesty that would make me mega happy on it's own.

  15. #55
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    Some sense of crew importance, sure. I share the sentiment that a subtle impact from experience is better. As an aside: Silent Hunter 3 tried to make crew progression and management a key part of itself, but it ended up interfering with ordinary gameplay to a pretty abhorring extent. At sea, the management ended up being very tedious because you micromanaged the watches. That didn't work particularly well, but with shortcuts through an interface, the burden could've been alleviated.

    The ability to be better at someone else because I know how to do maneuvers well, and because I know my ship well. Ie, knowing how close to the wind to take her, knowing how to jibe smoothly, knowing not to open up my lowest gun ports in high weather if I will heel at all.

    Here's a concept: Proper weathervane. The vane doesn't point in the direction of the wind, but towards the mean (proper term?) of the wind and the ship's velocity. That makes steering within X points less of an easy visual estimation. You'd get the aural feedback (fluttering sails) at different points of the vane depending on your speed and the wind's speed.

    Gunsmoke to lee making aiming slightly harder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don
    ^robsably aboujt to throw up so goood night failheap IU love you all even you ctrlchris even iuf you keep bnegrrepping me for no reason

  16. #56
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    Sure, I can try to put words down, but as I tried to say earlier, I am not really sure what I want. Even at the lowest level, I'm not sure if an eve-like open world game or a wot-like instanced battle one is preferable.

    Real sea warfare was simple boredom to such an extent that any game capturing this would be horrible. I mean, using eve speak, the English camped in the French for months on end. Fleet battles happened maybe once a year during war time, and some captains went their entire career without ever facing a single-ship or small flotilla engagement.

    And the engagements themselves took hours. Maneuvers that bear fruit half a day later. Random Happenstances brutally altering the course of events. Week-long searches until you bring an enemy to action. All these are things that only a niche playership will find fun, and I have no idea how to make a playable game out of it.

    Therefor I think instanced scenarios will be the better short-term solution.

    But, there are a few things that I am sure I want, and which to an extent parrot Alex.

    1) Detailed damage model. Make it a decision to go for the masts, the rudder, or the main ship's body with crew and guns. Possibly even ignore the concept of HP for the entire ship and look at single parts of it whose loss will make carrying on the fight harder. Of course a ship can catch fire or blow up, but most real fights end when one side pulls down its flag. Hence

    2) Find a mechanic that makes actually yielding a useful mechanic when you've lost a fight, and accepting the yield as well. Possibly by making you retain the crew and officers.

    3) Trainable crew and officers. This is probably tied in with some sort of XP system. In any case, I don't want to steer the ship directly but via commands to the crew. Of course, as a good player you can micromanage more and more (as in, command "make sail" vs "courses and topsails, stand by for reefing". Make crew management an integral part - those poor boys can do only so many things at once.

    4) Random weather, possibly within predetermined parameters for any given scenario

    Those are the things I can think of right away. I'll give a possible open world more thought but consider it unlikely that I'll come up with something feasible, even though I'd love such a game.

    Edit for Jurskjeld: The expression you are looking for is "apparent wind", and I'd love having to base decisions on that.
    Last edited by Miriam Sasko; February 4 2014 at 01:02:20 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post

    I can start off with mine, which I suspect may be shared with a few others.

    1) At least semi realistic. By which I mean an attempt at proper sail characteristics, speeds, damage model etc. NOT an arcade game.
    2) A decent level of customisation, but not at the expense of all realism. So cutting in half a line ship to make a fast Razee frigate is fine, changing guns, sails, sailing characteristics etc....but please no super fast, glass cannon sloops loaded with carronades or the like making everything into nano-fag warfare (eve reference, it means uncatchable, well armed hit and run ships that carry very little risk in using them).
    3) Some kind of crew progression system that isn't terrible, and isn't just Warcraft style "you leveled up, now you can fire better shot from your cannons by pressing 4".

    Um...in all honesty that would make me mega happy on it's own.
    But its always have fun kapelle, perhaps that means sometimes at your expense.

  18. #58
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    but please no super fast, glass cannon sloops loaded with carronades or the like making everything into nano-fag warfare (eve reference, it means uncatchable, well armed hit and run ships that carry very little risk in using them).
    Please take your eve butthurt elsewhere, tia.

  19. #59
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    Hey,

    Can't believe we have a dev registering here - well played.

    I used to play PotBS - I play Eve, and I am a bit of a casual gamer now (Got kid, Job ect).

    I kinda wanted to share my "Wish list" as there are probably a lot of people like me who play quite a few games casually, don't have time to learn simulator-like controls but genuinely appreciate a well made and well polished game.
    I am also a fan of the "Age of Sail" - (not the game the time) but PotBS left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth after they took away the large ships and the game was generally to much Magic and horribly made avatar combat.

    So here would be my list of suggestions:

    - Please Don't Exclude Large ships from the game, 1st Rate ships of the line are some of the most attractive ships of the time period - use these gorgeous behemoths as your marketing and PR stuff and you'll get the player-base up quickly.

    - If you are going to make the game more of a simulator please have some kind of "Arcade mode" for me and my "Retarded" friends who only have a couple of hours to play each night. Please don't penalize our XP or whatever either, just pitch people who want to play at a Simulator level with others who do as-well .As has been mentioned before, similar to War thunder would be ideal, as then when I do fancy playing with all the extra controls I can.

    - Have some form of Tree to progress through a nations ships, I know this might sound silly, but even in eve (Where there is no ship tree) there is now a ship tree, that doesn't mean you have to progress through it, but it is there. I think people should have to use the smaller boats in order to progress, mainly because otherwise the game will be filled with noobs-of-the-line, but also because it gives a good sense of achievement and progression. I don't personally like grindy games, I gave up on world of tanks at tier 9, but if you at least force ~Some~ usage of the smaller ships, this would be good.

    - Teams. Please don't add pirates. and if Pirates are planned to be in the game, make it so that they are either NPC's or players that are temporarily side-swapped. everyone and their dog wants to be a fucking pirate and it always ruins any game with pirates in them.

    - I dont know how you would make this open world and work. In PotBS they did it but it had a seperate map and design for open sea travel, which frankly ruined immersion, I would prefer a map and "fast travel" (like an old sailing map with dotted lines gradually going to your destination) to what was in PotBS, random encounters could be a good thing for any open world system with fast travel, but fast travel should be something you can do as a fleet as well as solo. So if your fleet of 4 friends gets jumped on the way to another port or something, everyone gets pulled into the fight, not just one or something lame. Allowing for escorts and convoys ect.

    I dunno just some thoughts, its a hard one to think up ideas that won't suck for a game with this much potential. It really depends if they want it to be more open world or instance based. Open world would be awsome, but sounds too much like an MMO. and instance based makes me feel like all my games are going to be the same style but tanks or planes or ships or old ships. but making it too different to the "norm" risks it being overlooked by the general population.

    Still looks frikin awsome.

  20. #60
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurskjeld View Post
    Some sense of crew importance, sure. I share the sentiment that a subtle impact from experience is better. As an aside: Silent Hunter 3 tried to make crew progression and management a key part of itself, but it ended up interfering with ordinary gameplay to a pretty abhorring extent. At sea, the management ended up being very tedious because you micromanaged the watches. That didn't work particularly well, but with shortcuts through an interface, the burden could've been alleviated.

    The ability to be better at someone else because I know how to do maneuvers well, and because I know my ship well. Ie, knowing how close to the wind to take her, knowing how to jibe smoothly, knowing not to open up my lowest gun ports in high weather if I will heel at all.

    Here's a concept: Proper weathervane. The vane doesn't point in the direction of the wind, but towards the mean (proper term?) of the wind and the ship's velocity. That makes steering within X points less of an easy visual estimation. You'd get the aural feedback (fluttering sails) at different points of the vane depending on your speed and the wind's speed.

    Gunsmoke to lee making aiming slightly harder.
    I ended it.

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