[PVP] Harbinger

[Dan Pyre]

Harbinger is best at facemelt range.

Well, the Brutix is the best at facemelt range.

Harbinger is best at pre-facemelt range

[Angel Hun]

Hes Still Alive

Worst Primary.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

I'm going to repeat myself a bit here but I'm going to say the secret to using harbingers is definitely to have a passive defense ganglink active on one of your harbingers (failing a boosting legion in system or something). It's quite easy to fit and the EHP boost is substantial: to the point where it's simply surprising that your armor BC gang, which otherwise looks perfectly normal, is taking significantly more punishment than one might expect.

[Sponk]

I'm going to repeat myself a bit here but I'm going to say the secret to using harbingers is definitely to have a passive defense ganglink active on one of your harbingers (failing a boosting legion in system or something). It's quite easy to fit and the EHP boost is substantial: to the point where it's simply surprising that your armor BC gang, which otherwise looks perfectly normal, is taking significantly more punishment than one might expect.

Isn't that true for most battlecruisers?

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Isn't that true for most battlecruisers?

Particularly the harbi and the cane, which have enough room (and spare highs) to easily fit links. Less so for the drake (due to gimping the fit a bit harder, iirc) and definitely less for gallente, where you lose a gun to make room for the link.

[Suleiman Shouaa]

Isn't that true for most battlecruisers?

Best for the Harbinger since it has more armor than a Hurricane.

[mistersparky]

The fit above is trying to be an arty cane, and it really can't do that job unfortunately

If I were to fly the harby, it would be up to 20km and no more tbh

Sorry I am not being very constructive though, just frustrated with this ship

What if one were running a Arty Cane fleet, and had a pilot who was only speced to fly a Harb? Slap him in a Beam Harb and accept its not going to be as good as the Arty Cane, or stick him in a Pulse Harb and accept that he isn't going to be able to hit at the same range as the Canes?

[SteeleResolve]

What if one were running a Arty Cane fleet, and had a pilot who was only speced to fly a Harb? Slap him in a Beam Harb and accept its not going to be as good as the Arty Cane, or stick him in a Pulse Harb and accept that he isn't going to be able to hit at the same range as the Canes?

Depends how the fleet will fly. Is the fleet gonna be at mid range from the primary (30+)? If yes, then obviously the beam fit.

If it is going in at zero then obviously the pulse fit would be better. Dont know why theyd go in at zero though....

[Vortex]

What if one were running a Arty Cane fleet, and had a pilot who was only speced to fly a Harb? Slap him in a Beam Harb and accept its not going to be as good as the Arty Cane, or stick him in a Pulse Harb and accept that he isn't going to be able to hit at the same range as the Canes?

Put him in a ceptor, tackle things for the canes. Beam harbingers are terrible.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Put him in a ceptor, tackle things for the canes. Beam harbingers are terrible.

This, something that I see wayyyy, wayyyy, wayyy too many fleets fail to realize.

Tackling is an utterly lost art in eve these days for a variety of reasons, but it seems like almost no fleet forms up with a proper core of ships + proper tackle.

Can't fly the right ship? Fly a tackler or gtfo.

Tackling is a noble profession, and good scout/tackle ceptor/dictor pilots are absolutely amazing.

[Shiroi Okami]

What if one were running a Arty Cane fleet, and had a pilot who was only speced to fly a Harb? Slap him in a Beam Harb and accept its not going to be as good as the Arty Cane, or stick him in a Pulse Harb and accept that he isn't going to be able to hit at the same range as the Canes?

If you're flying proper (brawling) arty canes (The kind that don't have sebos and don't use tremor because it's shit), a shield pulse harb is an excellent complement to such a fleet in that it's frig killing and general dps ability at <35km is amazing.

[Tsubutai]

This, something that I see wayyyy, wayyyy, wayyy too many fleets fail to realize.

Tackling is an utterly lost art in eve these days for a variety of reasons, but it seems like almost no fleet forms up with a proper core of ships + proper tackle.

Would you rather have two inties or a loki-boosted arazu/rapier combo?

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Would you rather have two inties or a loki-boosted arazu/rapier combo?

I'd rather have 2 inties than 2 t1 fit, low SP scrubs trying to fly a Battlecruiser.

"Can't fly a BC properly? Oh I'm sure you can get in an arazu and we have a loki lying around somewhere instead one second!"

[Tsubutai]

I'd rather have 2 inties than 2 t1 fit, low SP scrubs trying to fly a Battlecruiser.

"Can't fly a BC properly? Oh I'm sure you can get in an arazu and we have a loki lying around somewhere instead one second!"

That's fair enough, but I disagree with your statement that "no fleet forms up with ... proper tackle" - it's just that for various reasons, the metagame favours T3s and recons for tackle rather than inties.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

That's fair enough, but I disagree with your statement that "no fleet forms up with ... proper tackle" - it's just that for various reasons, the metagame favours T3s and recons for tackle rather than inties.

Recons and T3 boost ARE tackle, I should have specifically stated that "scrub fleets" are forming up heavily favoring more BCs and totally ignoring the important role of tackle.

anyways, back on topic...

[Sparkus Volundar]

I'd go with pulse Harbi or, if if you've enough tackle, an Arbi to bring a little TD love and maybe some neuts to try anti-tackle duty while staying with the fleet.

[Daneel Trevize]

On the topic of face-melt range vs pre-facemelt range, and inspired by Kil2's 1600mm + MAR antics... for owning the 9-13km zone:

[Harbinger, Dual rep + hax?]

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Small 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Medium Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Valkyrie II x5


With a few tricks up your sleeve(implants & links), this thing is so fucking fun to fly. Will devour a BC held at tackle range, or force them off if perma-kited (Scorch is OP, you can chase things down for ages, making them have cap issues and thus have to warp). Untested vs tier3 BCs though. Again, so much fun, thing just keeps on trucking, munches frigates too.

Or, for more speed and a long point:
[Harbinger, Dual rep + hax? no plate or armour rigs?]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

Medium Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Medium Algid Energy Administrations Unit I
Medium Algid Energy Administrations Unit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Valkyrie II x5

Perhaps better is a T2 point, medium nos/neut and a TE.

[Harbinger, Dual rep + hax? no plate or armour rigs? m nos]

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Medium Armor Repairer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Medium Algid Energy Administrations Unit I
Medium Algid Energy Administrations Unit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Valkyrie II x5


Doesn't require energy turrets rigging to 5 to fit, but it's very snug.

[Vortex]

You should really stop listing fits with the mods all spread apart like that, its a PTIA to read. You should obviously split the mods on the ship for overheating reasons in-game, but just keep similar mods together please when posting :S

Splitting your weapons like that to run three fitting rigs is also really really terrible. Just drop down to pure FMP and run freaking damage rigs - you wind up with more fittings freed up and more damage. Actually your resist layout annoys me a lot as well, since you wind up with rather glaring holes in Thermal and Kinetic, which are by far the most common types of damage you are going to face. Explosive you will only really see from Minmatar drones and Fusion Ammo.

So really you should be flying that harbinger like this:


[Harbinger, dual rep fixt (oh you can read it too how nice)]
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

To compare:
Same DPS output, although you can have more if you run a burst rig instead of the two tank rigs
Don't need to swap two sets of laser crystals (QOL improvement)
Significantly more DPS tanked
Significantly more legible
Lots of PG free if you wanted to free up the CPU for a medium neut/nos.

Keep in mind that even my improved dual rep fit only tanks 244 dps without armor links, which is nothing. To put that in perspective, you need those two reps running for 91.5s before you equalize the EHP difference with a bog-standard 1600/MAR Harbinger. A T3 legion link alt improves the time to 80.78s, which is still a long-ass time. Standard exile + link alt drops the EHP parity to 67s. This comparison does not factor in the single MAR running on the regular old harbinger either, which would significantly increase the time to EHP parity. Basically, the dual MAR setup could work, sort of, so long as you are in fights with LOW dps or you kill off their high dps ships fast enough that you don't just ~die~. Otherwise a plated/MAR fit (or just straight plate) is going to work a lot better, esp. considering those plated fits have a second Heatsink on you (you can run two damage rigs to equalize the DPS, but then you also increase the time for EHP parity).


edit: Regarding your original, first fit:
I don't see the point of trading a heatsink for a second MAR and downgrading the plate. It takes 77.45s to equalize the EHP difference (again ignoring that the 1600 also has a MAR), and you give up 76 dps with that second heatsink for the privilege. Its not like you are significantly faster either - ~50m/s and 0.9s align. Neither harbinger is ever going to catch anything that doesn't want to get caught. Even with a link alt, you need 61s to equalize the EHP difference - and the 1600 fit has nearly 100k EHP with just a Legion alt in local - lets not even start talking about slaved setups. Sorry, but I don't see the purpose of trading damage and EHP for that little gain in EHP/s tanked.

[OrangeAfroMan]

Debating on the details of this fit:

[Harbinger, Harbinger - Solo SB]

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Small YF-12a Smartbomb

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Warp Disruptor II

Medium Armor Repairer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

If I drop one of my hardening rigs for an ACR I could fit a Medium Nos or Neut, but I don't think you'd get much benefit out of a Medium Nos or Neut compared to the benefit of filling one of your resist holes. You could fit a small Nos/Neut, but those are essentially worthless on a BC.

[Daneel Trevize]

Good points

And you should get an EFT/PyFA that has the latest mod names

In my defence, fitting rigs don't gimp your speed like armour ones, and are cheaper. And when you're active armour tanking someone 100% in a t1 ship I expect they'll switch to explosive and you can bait better. But yes your resists get you to that place if e.g. they have PP loaded over Barrage, I think I'd just suggest the meta4 web so you can get the medium neut/nos.

Honestly I'd been having a blast with the plate + MARs fit and derived the others from that, and would still favour plating this thing in any case because you are indeed less likely to manage to get just low enough dps to make that time-to-parity happen. But also don't forget the 'noble'+nomad tanking implants, which puts it close to just 1 aggro timer.

The big bone of contention in my mind is still scram or long point..?

Afro, is a small smarty even useful again default ec-300 orbit? I'd have thought the small nos for holding tackle or the neut for anti-frigates & stupid stable pve fits is far more worthwhile.
Also, would still try bluff the cane pilots and drop the thermal resist for the PG rig, leaving kinetic and explosive better.