The Mittani is... Sun Tzu

[Evelgrivion]

TL;DR: Massive blowhard sounds more like it.

That tl;dr is really, really selling it short. I'll give it a shot.

Napoleon, Alexander and other famous figures in the history of warfare only matter in the context of having new strategies to play, angles to master, and techniques to polish to a mirror shine. Eve Online doesn't have those, because the problems of game design and industrial abundance have turned Eve Online's sovereignty warfare into the spacehip equivalent of Trench Warfare. These battles aren't won by strategically breaking the other side's armies, they're won by making the other side give up. This reality elevates the value of propaganda pieces like Mittani; tactically, these personalities are meaningless. Strategically, they are rallying points for other people to browbeat each other over. Mittens is a drummer boy, not Sun Tzu.

[Dray]

TL;DR: Massive blowhard sounds more like it.

That tl;dr is really, really selling it short. I'll give it a shot.

Sun Tzus and famous figures in the history of warfare only matter in the context of having new strategies to play, angles to master, and techniques to polish to a mirror shine. Eve Online doesn't have those, because the problems of game design and industrial abundance have turned Eve Online's sovereignty warfare into the spacehip equivalent of Trench Warfare. These battles aren't won by strategically breaking the other side's armies, they're won by making the other side give up. This reality elevates the value of propaganda pieces like Mittani; tactically, these personalities are meaningless. Strategically, they are rallying points for other people to browbeat each other over. Mittens is a drummer boy, not Sun Tzu.

I did read it and thought it was accurate, the drummer boy analogy is about as good as you could get.

The only difference for me is the Mittani has wrote about it on Ten Ton Hammer, before him people fought and won sov/alliance warfare and after him people will do it in whatever form it takes. The whole BoB thing is hilarious, being handed an alliance on a plate through no effort of your own is not a victory in any sense, but in true Eve fashion you take whatever you can get and make the most of it.

As for Sun Tzu I always been a little baffled by the veneration his work receives, I tried to read it once and I got bored really quickly and honestly think "The Art of Common Sense" would be a better title, I just think he was an intelligent man in a time where intelligence, especially in warfare, just didn't really matter it was just a big old pissing competition.

There's a bit more to it than that but I over simplified it to save a wall of text.

[Sponk]

There's a bit more to it than that but I over simplified it to save a wall of text.

holy shit ppl can do that?

[Dray]

There's a bit more to it than that but I over simplified it to save a wall of text.

holy shit ppl can do that?

I've been over simplifying all my life and apart from a few embarrassing moments at funerals and weddings it has served me fine.

[XenosisReaper]

Retards trolling retards

[Dray]

Retards trolling retards

You're too awesome to post here.

[XenosisReaper]

Retards trolling retards

You're too awesome to post here.

So you're saying that this thread is entirely original and productive?

[Dray]

Retards trolling retards

You're too awesome to post here.

So you're saying that this thread is entirely original and productive?

Highlighted what I was saying, also to save time and trouble lets assume we've spat a few bollox posts at each and got to the point where one of us makes a Nazi reference and loses interest.

[XenosisReaper]

Retards trolling retards

You're too awesome to post here.

So you're saying that this thread is entirely original and productive?

Highlighted what I was saying, also to save time and trouble lets assume we've spat a few bollox posts at each and got to the point where one of us makes a Nazi reference and loses interest.

You are literally worse than Hitl- shit.

Well...uh... hmmm...

[Lancehot]

Between the stressed sibilance & that sound of saliva between the tongue & roof of the mouth, I couldn't listen to the whole thing.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

There's still strategic geniuses in Eve. They just aren't operational commanders, they're fleet composition designers.

[Bartholomeus Crane]

TL;DR: Massive blowhard sounds more like it.

That tl;dr is really, really selling it short. I'll give it a shot.

Napoleon, Alexander and other famous figures in the history of warfare only matter in the context of having new strategies to play, angles to master, and techniques to polish to a mirror shine. Eve Online doesn't have those, because the problems of game design and industrial abundance have turned Eve Online's sovereignty warfare into the spacehip equivalent of Trench Warfare. These battles aren't won by strategically breaking the other side's armies, they're won by making the other side give up. This reality elevates the value of propaganda pieces like Mittani; tactically, these personalities are meaningless. Strategically, they are rallying points for other people to browbeat each other over. Mittens is a drummer boy, not Sun Tzu.

Well, you could use that as a tl;dr if you want, mine wasn't meant to be descriptive, just to emphasis the point, the rather obvious point in fact.

As for Sun Tzu, no he isn't really a genius cyrrentky, because everyone knows, through experience of hindsight analysis, most of what he wrote then as a bunch of open doors. He doesn't deserve reverence for writing it down, he deserves it for writing it down so damn early. The same, in a different cultural setting, can be said for Clausewitz and a number of others. It all was very novel at the time, but by now we all took the lessons on board, we all know it already (there still are little jems in there, but they mostly only shine in hindsight).

But, really, not by any stretch of the imagination, can this be applied to drummerboy Mittens. This is all half-baked, half-arsed, back of a milk-carton knowledge. Clausewitz alone, beyond 'On war' wrote masses and masses of maxiums and deliberations and thoughts on war and warfare. Picking out what happens to fit and ignoring the rest is just sad. There is however a difference between Clausewitzian and Jominian theories of war, as well as with others, and those differences are fundamental and interesting to think about. But none of those are at stake here, because, let's face it, Mittens hasn't got a clue about them apart from what he read on that milk-carton some time ago. And fair is fair, he doesn't need to. He just needs to beat that drum hard and loud and continuously.

At any rate, Sun Tzu is no longer that special, but he did capture a lot of the essence, but most importantly, he was the first (recollected) to do so. That really is enough.

And yes there are still strategic geniuses in EVE, no doubt. But like Allenby, who was one of the few exceptions in WWI, they are covered in a mountain of strategic, operational, and tactical shit. They can, if they are lucky, shine in a sideshow, like Allenby, but lets face it, it will always be a sideshow, and the meat of the war is in the logistics and the agitprop. That's fine, but it is hopelessly boring and unexciting for a computer game you pay subscription for.

Sell it any way you want, no one wants to be sap number 10010010101 dying for a meaningless piece of real estate you don't really care about, and which is only really important to wear the opponents moral down, clones or no clones. I'm not saying convincing those minions to think otherwise is easy. I'm just saying it has nothing much to do with warfare, and certainly nothing to do with generalship, or tactics, or operation or strategic thinking. It is just what it is, agitprop, and being a drummerboy to keep the lads putting down their lives in vain. Who are we attacking next? Eurasia! Or was it Oceania? Who cares! Onward to glory! Seriously, fuck it all, not worth my trouble, and really, I pity you if you think otherwise.

And all this is caused by horrendous game design. Nothing else. Sov warfare is horrendously boring and uninspired because it is designed to be that way. And in this, terribly boring environment, what you need are drummerboys who keep moral up, and do the agitprop, and provide the lulz in what is really a very unlulzy environment. And that's all there is too it.

And yes, the real 'brains' in the operation are the ones who provide the resources, do the logistics, supply the ships, that crap, but fuck it, that's all carebearing really. There is no grand strategy here, there is no operational excellence, and tactical exploits mean preciously little in the scale of things. It is up and over, and that's it. Boring.

Anyway, whatever ...

[Lallante]

Jesus are you capable of expressing yourself in less than a thousand words? You are worse than the Jade of yesteryear.

[Mike deVoid]

Words-per-post is Barth's damage-per-second; and it's employed soley against CCP and mittens. Amusing really.

[Evelgrivion]

Words per post is Barth's damage second; and it's employed soley about CCP and mittens. Amusing really.

I've read this post four times and I have no idea what you were trying to say with the first half.

[Mike deVoid]

Posting from a phone. I lose words sometimes, not sure how it happens. Edited for clarity.

[Bartholomeus Crane]

Words per post is Barth's damage second; and it's employed soley about CCP and mittens. Amusing really.

I've read this post four times and I have no idea what you were trying to say with the first half.

Sigh ...

Merely that although Sun Tzu's writings nowadays are not longer that impressive, that this is only so because by now most of what he wrote is supposed to be commonly accepted knowledge. What is still impressive though is that he wrote this as early as he did, and that so much of it is still applicable now, even if it is common knowledge.

On the other hand it is not enough to be the 'first' to write down 'stuff' in a certain field, if the only thing you reallly do is half-baked borrowing and cherry-picking what happens to fit, without showing the, basically, required understanding of the whole body of knowledge, or at the least an interpretation of that knowledge within the context. That is just sad.

Just slinging Sun Tzu into the discussion and serving up some cherry-picked platitudes does not show insight. It just shows that you've read some stuff on the back of a milk-carton and that you like to be a blow hard about it.

That's all ...

[Shin_getter]

And all this is caused by horrendous game design. Nothing else. Sov warfare is horrendously boring and uninspired because it is designed to be that way. And in this, terribly boring environment, what you need are drummerboys who keep moral up, and do the agitprop, and provide the lulz in what is really a very unlulzy environment. And that's all there is too it.

Couldn't have it any other way, sadly. Eve's system of attritional boredom is the natural out growth of the demands of the player base. It is democratic war where the will of each individual is more important then brilliance of the few.

Much of real war is not fun. Real war is not a sustained repetition of good fights or even much of a fight at all. The faster the pace of tactical engagement, the more of it is sitting around waiting for something to happen, and sudden burst of violence that ends before the observer on the ground could figure out what happened.

Allowing for "Tactical Genius" just means a smarter FC can stomp all over your tard FC, and you just die no matter what you do. So you just join the smart FC and have people complain how small entities don't survive.

Allowing for fast "Maneuver warfare" just mean you can work for month and lose it all in a weekend that you are not logged in.

Hell, even economic warfare results in endless cries of blobs, battleship/captial/titan/super online, so we are gonna nerf everything expensive from ever having decisive effect on the battlefield to make it so making money don't matter.

What strategic success really means is a endless string of easy ganks. Much of strategy is about hitting the enemy weak point while avoiding wasteful strength on strength battles. It is obvious why this is very bad because people want "good fights." If strategy is possible then people will of out of the way to avoid it because it is not fun for anyone but the single guy on top planning the strategy.

The current Eve system such that "the people that want it the most, gets it", and that is a better way to allocate resources for the purposes of satisfying the player base then have gifted folks take it all and a pissed mass that gets nothing. (just think of the subs)

FAIRNESS

And yes, the real 'brains' in the operation are the ones who provide the resources, do the logistics, supply the ships, that crap, but fuck it, that's all carebearing really. There is no grand strategy here, there is no operational excellence, and tactical exploits mean preciously little in the scale of things. It is up and over, and that's it. Boring.

Amateurs talk tactics, Professional talk logistics.

Operational excellence rarely determine wars in its natural environment that is far removed from artificial games. For all the operational and tactical brilliance of the American Confederacy, the German Wehrmacht or Imperial Japanese Navy, they got rolled silly by superior economic powers. If you throw 5000 tanks on a 3 kilometer front, or 20 fleet carriers on a battleship, even retards can win a victory, and thus its done. In preindustrial times wars are more commonly determined by the fear of death and fast fail cascades, and numbers and resources didn't count for quite as much, but not today.

There is focus on individual skill when reading history since it is attractive and personal, but it doesn't count for all that much.

[KKassandra]

In Eve I adopt a general principle of assuming anyone bringing up Sun Tzu in a straight-faced manner is a pillock. It has served me well, so given that Mittani clearly has some mastery of the art of herding dipshits (a vital skill for any alliance higher up), I choose to believe he was making some kind of joke to himself.


Edit: also agreeing with the general principle of the poster above, namely that :goodfites: and meaningful strategy can't exist at the same time in the same conflict, since the whole point of good strategy is to avoid battles that aren't one-sided rolfstompings.

I once heard someone describe Eve as an RTS where you play as one of the expendable peons, controlled by some uncaring higher power. Disguising this fact is the key to making Eve warfare fun for the average player.


Edit2: in terms of 'vision', this is presumably what CCP are/were going ofr with Dust. Aware that being an immortal space demigod who is in fact Pvt Joe Schmuck #123245 is a problem, they sought to graft on the idea of being the puppetmaster controlling tens/hundreds/thousands of other players by contracting console FPS players to fight for your interests. So that every schmoe gets to be the mighty general in between bouts of being cannon fodder.

[XenosisReaper]

The Mittani is... Butthurt.