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Thread: T3 Module Concept.

  1. #1
    Ophichius's Avatar
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    T3 Module Concept.

    T3 cruisers are supposed to be not quite as good as T2, but tougher and more versatile, which a specialization towards heat. Why not adapt this same motif for T3 modules?

    Higher HP, lower heat damage/cycle, lower performance, but higher heat bonuses (Such that heated T3 > heated T2). Passive T3 modules would either have high HP, slightly lower performance, and lower fitting requirements compared to T2; or higher HP, identical performance, and higher fitting requirements.

    Thoughts?

    -O
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those Thukkers, that way I wouldn't have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody.
    Failing the Voight-Kampff test, one tortoise at a time.

  2. #2

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    Awesome idea! I would have liked better performance and lower O.H. damage but i guess for sake of balance its better to not over do it ;D

    there is like t1 rigs and t2 rigs and im kind of wondering why no t3 rigs
    Wish they could add T3 rigs wich would be built by wormhole salvage.

    A crazy idea i got is for a totally new rig to reduce the overheat damage would be very cool!

  3. #3

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    personally, i think that if you take into account t1 + all meta named + t2 + faction + deadspace + officer metas......introducing t3 modules is just overdoing it.

    What needs to be done is pay closer attention to all the meta level of modules and balance them across.....perhaps deadspace stuff is just like faction, but with better overheat........i don't know...but i would really like to avoid t3 modules.

  4. #4
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    t3 rigs which can be fit/unfit without destruction - but only on t3 ships - would go a long way towards making t3s the true "versatile" awesomeness they were supposed to be (esp when combined with the yurts).

    Or idea - make them affect your subsystem bonuses. Want a bricktank proteus? Have a t3 rig that adds 10% to the effect of your defensive sub, or a t3 rig that adds 10% per level to your electronics sub.

    For regular ships, it'd just effect one of your ship bonuses, depending on whats fit (esp for t2 ships that have lots of them.)

    I like the idea of t3 modules being tied in with heating tbh. Alternatively, make them overheatable etc etc like you said, but instead of actually taking heat damage, they just consume nanite repair paste from your cargo.

    The longer you heat, the higher the multiplier for how much paste is used - so you can't just stack nanite paste and heat nonstop without it rapidly becoming very expensive.

    Adds a whole new level of skill as you have to track your heat level, nanite paste, and operate all said modules strategically in order to outperform t2 etc etc.

    Would be great for soloers and very small gang stuff, but over time t2 would still outperform said t3 modules, esp for large fleet fights, making them not overpowered for such stuff(maybe fit a t3 invuln field or armor hardener that you only heat when primaried, but it wouldn't be ubiquitous on fleet ships).
    It's 2019. Get a grip.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    T3 cruisers are supposed to be not quite as good as T2, but tougher and more versatile, which a specialization towards heat. Why not adapt this same motif for T3 modules?

    Higher HP, lower heat damage/cycle, lower performance, but higher heat bonuses (Such that heated T3 > heated T2). Passive T3 modules would either have high HP, slightly lower performance, and lower fitting requirements compared to T2; or higher HP, identical performance, and higher fitting requirements.

    Thoughts?

    -O
    Following this concept T3 modules should have slightly lesser performance then T2 counterpart when non-overheated, as soon as you overheat them you should get performance slightly superior to overheated T2 modules. For balancing it the T3 modules should produce a lot less heat since they are designed to be used in overload but will pack less HP, this mean that using "all T3 modules" will be more efficent otherwise a stock T2 module will heat up the fragile T3 ones breaking them.

    Personally i think that the overheat concept is one of the best features introduced in the years since you have to seriously manage your modules and think about what you are doing, if you succeed you can surpass other people performance, if you fail you end up dead with broken modules.

    It's fun, i like it.

  6. #6
    Ophichius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Fremen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    T3 cruisers are supposed to be not quite as good as T2, but tougher and more versatile, which a specialization towards heat. Why not adapt this same motif for T3 modules?

    Higher HP, lower heat damage/cycle, lower performance, but higher heat bonuses (Such that heated T3 > heated T2). Passive T3 modules would either have high HP, slightly lower performance, and lower fitting requirements compared to T2; or higher HP, identical performance, and higher fitting requirements.

    Thoughts?

    -O
    Following this concept T3 modules should have slightly lesser performance then T2 counterpart when non-overheated, as soon as you overheat them you should get performance slightly superior to overheated T2 modules. For balancing it the T3 modules should produce a lot less heat since they are designed to be used in overload but will pack less HP, this mean that using "all T3 modules" will be more efficent otherwise a stock T2 module will heat up the fragile T3 ones breaking them.

    Personally i think that the overheat concept is one of the best features introduced in the years since you have to seriously manage your modules and think about what you are doing, if you succeed you can surpass other people performance, if you fail you end up dead with broken modules.

    It's fun, i like it.
    I'm not a fan of them being fragile. That forces pure T3 or no T3, and makes T3 passive modules worse than T2 in every way. Making T3 only outperform T2 when used in conjunction with heat mechanics was the design goal, so making T3 modules more resistant to heat damage makes more sense than the other way round. (T2 modules are already worse than T1 in terms of heat buildup and damage, pushing T3 further along that axis isn't desirable.). The price you pay for T3 should be in uneated performance and/or fitting, not in performance inside their superiority niche of heated operation.

    -O
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those Thukkers, that way I wouldn't have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody.
    Failing the Voight-Kampff test, one tortoise at a time.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Fremen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    T3 cruisers are supposed to be not quite as good as T2, but tougher and more versatile, which a specialization towards heat. Why not adapt this same motif for T3 modules?

    Higher HP, lower heat damage/cycle, lower performance, but higher heat bonuses (Such that heated T3 > heated T2). Passive T3 modules would either have high HP, slightly lower performance, and lower fitting requirements compared to T2; or higher HP, identical performance, and higher fitting requirements.

    Thoughts?

    -O
    Following this concept T3 modules should have slightly lesser performance then T2 counterpart when non-overheated, as soon as you overheat them you should get performance slightly superior to overheated T2 modules. For balancing it the T3 modules should produce a lot less heat since they are designed to be used in overload but will pack less HP, this mean that using "all T3 modules" will be more efficent otherwise a stock T2 module will heat up the fragile T3 ones breaking them.

    Personally i think that the overheat concept is one of the best features introduced in the years since you have to seriously manage your modules and think about what you are doing, if you succeed you can surpass other people performance, if you fail you end up dead with broken modules.

    It's fun, i like it.
    I'm not a fan of them being fragile. That forces pure T3 or no T3, and makes T3 passive modules worse than T2 in every way. Making T3 only outperform T2 when used in conjunction with heat mechanics was the design goal, so making T3 modules more resistant to heat damage makes more sense than the other way round. (T2 modules are already worse than T1 in terms of heat buildup and damage, pushing T3 further along that axis isn't desirable.). The price you pay for T3 should be in uneated performance and/or fitting, not in performance inside their superiority niche of heated operation.

    -O
    Actually the idea of "pure t3 or no t3" sounds perfectly fine to me, it's a "different technology" built up for beign used under "controlled" overheating:

    - T3 cruiser using t3 modules should be able to overheat for extremely prolonged times (or maybe forever?) without any sensible damage to the system.
    - On the other side if you just pick a t3 module and fit it inside a "standard" t2 fitting on a t1/t2 ship that module can be overheated for a good amount of time (it produces low heat) but if you overload the nearby modules the t3 one will suffer.

    The perfect example of this situation is a heated up t3 warp disruptor nearby a MWD, if you overheat the disruptor you can gain a better range for extended periods of time but if you overheat your MWD for catching someone your t3 disruptor will most likely burn to ashes unless you carefully micro-manage it.

    This is something that could balance out the use of t2 or t3 modules, if you just make T3 modules generate less heat and beign tougher then t2/t1 counterpart you have just, de-facto, rendered obsolete all t2 modules and you will just force "everyone" to switch to t3 ones.

    With my proposal it will become a choice:

    - Dedicated t3 ships will be able to use these modules "to maximum" efficency with a proper re-balance so that a t3 cruiser can keep these new modules overloaded for extremely long periods of time or even forever with max skills, i suggest to add proper bonus in a way that the heat generated by one t3 overheated module in a t3 ships with t3 modules nearby will "heat away" and not even start damaging the module itself.
    - If you want you can fit a "all t3" power-level, for example all t3 mids and your heat is under control but without the added bonus of a t3 cruiser.
    - Who just think "hey let's switch this t2 module for the t3 one for better performance" will have to keep in mind that overheating the nearby modules will rip apart the t3 one forcing the pilots to make choices and think carefully if the added performance under overload overcome the drawback.

    EvE is a better game the more "choices" you have to make, doing a new tech level of modules that are brainlessly superior to t2 ones in most of the situations is plain stupid.

    PS: sorry for my bad english.
    Last edited by Liam Fremen; November 19 2013 at 01:44:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Ophichius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Fremen View Post
    Actually the idea of "pure t3 or no t3" sounds perfectly fine to me, it's a "different technology" built up for beign used under "controlled" overheating:

    - T3 cruiser using t3 modules should be able to overheat for extremely prolonged times (or maybe forever?) without any sensible damage to the system.
    - On the other side if you just pick a t3 module and fit it inside a "standard" t2 fitting on a t1/t2 ship that module can be overheated for a good amount of time (it produces low heat) but if you overload the nearby modules the t3 one will suffer.

    The perfect example of this situation is a heated up t3 warp disruptor nearby a MWD, if you overheat the disruptor you can gain a better range for extended periods of time but if you overheat your MWD for catching someone your t3 disruptor will most likely burn to ashes unless you carefully micro-manage it.

    This is something that could balance out the use of t2 or t3 modules, if you just make T3 modules generate less heat and beign tougher then t2/t1 counterpart you have just, de-facto, rendered obsolete all t2 modules and you will just force "everyone" to switch to t3 ones.

    With my proposal it will become a choice:

    - Dedicated t3 ships will be able to use these modules "to maximum" efficency with a proper re-balance so that a t3 cruiser can keep these new modules overloaded for extremely long periods of time or even forever with max skills, i suggest to add proper bonus in a way that the heat generated by one t3 overheated module in a t3 ships with t3 modules nearby will "heat away" and not even start damaging the module itself.
    - If you want you can fit a "all t3" power-level, for example all t3 mids and your heat is under control but without the added bonus of a t3 cruiser.
    - Who just think "hey let's switch this t2 module for the t3 one for better performance" will have to keep in mind that overheating the nearby modules will rip apart the t3 one forcing the pilots to make choices and think carefully if the added performance under overload overcome the drawback.

    EvE is a better game the more "choices" you have to make, doing a new tech level of modules that are brainlessly superior to t2 ones in most of the situations is plain stupid.

    PS: sorry for my bad english.
    Your design takes away the choice for T3 or T2 by making the optimal strategy full T3 in all cases. Mixed T2/T3 is strictly inferior to pure T2 in that scenario, and your scenario has no place for T3 passive modules.

    By making T3 inferior performance except while heated (And passive modules inferior performance to T2), but focusing on a single area of superiority (performance while heated and absorption of heat damage), you add a -meaningful- choice. Adding one good option and two shitty ones is worse than adding one meaningful choice (i.e. two good options.)

    -O
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those Thukkers, that way I wouldn't have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody.
    Failing the Voight-Kampff test, one tortoise at a time.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Fremen View Post
    Actually the idea of "pure t3 or no t3" sounds perfectly fine to me, it's a "different technology" built up for beign used under "controlled" overheating:

    - T3 cruiser using t3 modules should be able to overheat for extremely prolonged times (or maybe forever?) without any sensible damage to the system.
    - On the other side if you just pick a t3 module and fit it inside a "standard" t2 fitting on a t1/t2 ship that module can be overheated for a good amount of time (it produces low heat) but if you overload the nearby modules the t3 one will suffer.

    The perfect example of this situation is a heated up t3 warp disruptor nearby a MWD, if you overheat the disruptor you can gain a better range for extended periods of time but if you overheat your MWD for catching someone your t3 disruptor will most likely burn to ashes unless you carefully micro-manage it.

    This is something that could balance out the use of t2 or t3 modules, if you just make T3 modules generate less heat and beign tougher then t2/t1 counterpart you have just, de-facto, rendered obsolete all t2 modules and you will just force "everyone" to switch to t3 ones.

    With my proposal it will become a choice:

    - Dedicated t3 ships will be able to use these modules "to maximum" efficency with a proper re-balance so that a t3 cruiser can keep these new modules overloaded for extremely long periods of time or even forever with max skills, i suggest to add proper bonus in a way that the heat generated by one t3 overheated module in a t3 ships with t3 modules nearby will "heat away" and not even start damaging the module itself.
    - If you want you can fit a "all t3" power-level, for example all t3 mids and your heat is under control but without the added bonus of a t3 cruiser.
    - Who just think "hey let's switch this t2 module for the t3 one for better performance" will have to keep in mind that overheating the nearby modules will rip apart the t3 one forcing the pilots to make choices and think carefully if the added performance under overload overcome the drawback.

    EvE is a better game the more "choices" you have to make, doing a new tech level of modules that are brainlessly superior to t2 ones in most of the situations is plain stupid.

    PS: sorry for my bad english.
    Your design takes away the choice for T3 or T2 by making the optimal strategy full T3 in all cases. Mixed T2/T3 is strictly inferior to pure T2 in that scenario, and your scenario has no place for T3 passive modules.

    By making T3 inferior performance except while heated (And passive modules inferior performance to T2), but focusing on a single area of superiority (performance while heated and absorption of heat damage), you add a -meaningful- choice. Adding one good option and two shitty ones is worse than adding one meaningful choice (i.e. two good options.)

    -O
    And with your approach in wich case it would be more efficent to use a t2 module instead of a t3? Fitting restrictions or cost in isk/time was proven to not be an efficent way for balancing stuff.

    Imho you are not just boosting "a single area of superiority" there are modules that already operate under heat for most of the battles (for example guns) except for very prolonged fights, with this in mind you are just saying that replacing a t2 module for a t3 one will be a 100% profit without any drawback since you will be able to overheat for a longer period of time boosting your stats.

    What i'd like to avoid is a situation where for a specific module (or types of modules like "guns") the T2 version will be completely out-classed by the T3 counterpart in most or all of the situations, i would prefer T3 ones beign more specialized and requiring some trade-off for pushing out thier potential.

    Anyway, i think many of us agree on this: T3 modules should surpass T2 performance while heated while beign slightly inferior while not overheated.

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