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Thread: Wormhole Space (147 posts deleted and counting)

  1. #681
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yashir Wong View Post
    Carriers are among the strongest force multipliers in the game and represent an enormous hurdle. This is especially true in wormhole space where you cannot get anything bigger than a carrier in. A single Archon in triage is worth a little more than 6 Guardians in repping power. That same carrier can shrug off over 15,000 dps without breaking a sweat. It will take close to 17,000 dps to force it down without neutralizers. At 17,000 dps it will probably take 15 minutes to kill it. That's if the carrier pilot decides overheating is for chumps. Typically you need the neuting power of 2 Bhaalgorns fit with 7 heavy neuts and about 10,000 dps to bring a carriers cap to 0 and then kill it. This will take you a little over 3 minutes. If you're insane and decide you don't want Neuts, that means you need over 22,000 dps to kill it before it can self destruct. A decent battleship with excellent skills can get almost 1000 dps.

    These stats are heavily rounded. If there's anyone with more refined data, please correct me.

    I hope that long winded post and the other replies above help answer your questions.
    You assumed a pretty basic T2 fit triage Archon. Just an additional set of numbers for a more pimped one you're more likely to see in a WH.

    It almost doubles your triage carrier cost, but it's really worth it unless you're really short on money. in a WH, pretty much everything will have some pimp. Just throwing up some stats, without stepping into the world of officer stuff, you're looking at 22k tanked on overload, 17k without. 3960 RR per second, most guardians(it's fit dependent) are going to be between 300-400. Assuming max skills, you're talking about 83k GJ capacitor, anad a 508 regen. Two Bhaalgorn's with faction nuets sitting on a triage carrier are still going to take three minutes to cap him out, assuming he's overloading one of his reppers tanking 11k DPS. If he runs both, two minutes, 17k DPS tanked.

    Add boosters to this, and you'll see even more tank. 28k DPS tanked with strong exile. One Bhaalgorn will mean nothing when we add in mindflood boosters, the Archon is still cap stable running one repper, and over 6 minutes to neut him down if he runs both. Just because I'm a sadistic bastard, let's say this fight is taking place in a C6 Wolf Rayet. With exile boosters, overloaded local reps, and the WH effect, that's 57k DPS tanked.

    Let's then put those stats into a relevant situation. Unless you go officer on a dread, the best DPS you can get out of a Moros is around the neighborhood of 13-14k DPS. If you plan to overpower an Archon with raw DPS, you're going to need three Moros' to be effective. Add in Bhaalgorns, you'll be able to do it with two Bhaalgorns and one Moros. A cost analysis says three Moros with the fit that does 14k DPS is going to take you about 10billion ISK. Do it with Bhaalgorns and it goes down a bit, 7.8billion. Meanwhile that Archon fit is about 2.6billion, and there's nothing to say that you're not going to loose that dread or Bhaalgorn while trying to drop that Archon. It's also pretty important to remember that after 5 minutes, that Archon could leave triage and get reps from an external source, such as another Archon.

  2. #682
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Ganglinks work for cap ships, right?

  3. #683

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Ganglinks work for cap ships, right?
    yup they do.

    And yes Yashir Wong is really under estimating what WH entities will bring to a fight.

    @ dzajic . Yeah a lot of people who get invaded simply choose to self destruct stuff. I think a lot of the pvp entities in WH won't invade other pvp entities because well killing them means reducing the amount of neighbours that actually add pvp flavour. So a lot of invasions is against corps and alliances that only came to WH to whore isk and not add to the pvp community out here.

    There is simply this ever growing barrage of isk whooring corps that refuse to fight anyone that everyone is busying themselves trying to remove, Doesn't mean there aren't proper fights too though =)

  4. #684
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Ganglinks work for cap ships, right?
    I didn't include ganklinks mostly because I didn't have a ganglink ship on my EVEHQ, but also because they're not always present for WH fights like they are for 0.0 fights. Remember there's a limited number of people involved.

  5. #685

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandslinger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Ganglinks work for cap ships, right?
    yup they do.

    And yes Yashir Wong is really under estimating what WH entities will bring to a fight.

    @ dzajic . Yeah a lot of people who get invaded simply choose to self destruct stuff. I think a lot of the pvp entities in WH won't invade other pvp entities because well killing them means reducing the amount of neighbours that actually add pvp flavour. So a lot of invasions is against corps and alliances that only came to WH to whore isk and not add to the pvp community out here.

    There is simply this ever growing barrage of isk whooring corps that refuse to fight anyone that everyone is busying themselves trying to remove, Doesn't mean there aren't proper fights too though =)
    It's true, I was working with a relatively low cost fit. When I was building it I was using Pyfa's cost estimator which is apparently skewed extremely high. According to pyfa this fit will cost you 3.4 bil:

      Spoiler:
    [Archon, Triage]

    Triage Module II
    Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
    Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
    Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I

    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II

    Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
    Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
    True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    Capacitor Power Relay II
    Capacitor Power Relay II

    Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
    Large Remote Repair Augmentor II


    From what you're telling me that cost estimate is way too high.

    A good siege against the right target can often be quite profitable too. There also seems to be no lack of targets in C5 space these days. For me a siege is as much about popping a tower as it is getting a fight out of the occupants. There's a few reasons why we siege to the bitter end but mostly its our lack of a C5 static. So, when we pick a target we are committed and we like something to show for it.

  6. #686
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Afaik it's Faction CPRs before not-meta-0 cap modules, isk-spending-wise. Ignore faction CRs unless tight on CPU (shield-tankers only?). DC2!
    Also not sure RRAs do anything for cap ships. Moar cap regen!

    Max ganglinks+mindlink would do disgusting things to archon/cap ship tanks. Even 1 link on a tier2 battlecruiser sat inside a POS or buffertanked/safed up should be worth it if it's not a combat char. Miners train leadership skills, right? And orcas can fit them...

  7. #687
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Here's what I was using for those numbers:
      Spoiler:
    [Archon, Triage]

    Triage Module II
    3x Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I

    4x Cap Recharger II

    Damage Control II
    2x Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    2x Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
    2x Khanid Navy Capacitor Power Relay

    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

    EVEHQ says it's 2,589m or 2.6b. Not sure if that's correct, but looking at most of the numbers it has listed it looks about right. I went with the C-type EANMs since they're not too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Also not sure RRAs do anything for cap ships. Moar cap regen!
    EVEHQ says they do, not sure if that's realistic or not, but it doesn't matter RRAs don't help local tank, and anyone who isn't an alpha fleet(Basically anyone in a wormhole) and doesn't primary the Archon on the field is a retard. Letting a triage Archon sit and do it's business is a recipe for disaster. You drop an Archon for the threat of it's reps, the realism of it's local tank. Yes, meta RRs make an Archon have stupid rep power at nearly 4k a second, you're pretty much going to be primary as soon as you show up on the field unless the gang knows they can't break your local tank and are instead hoping you fuck up.

    For that reasoning, a CCC is better than any RRA. Also means if you have the isk for some but not all meta stuff, meta your reps before you do your RRs.
    Last edited by Cue1*; February 8 2012 at 03:02:56 AM.

  8. #688

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Here's what I was using for those numbers:
      Spoiler:
    [Archon, Triage]

    Triage Module II
    3x Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I

    4x Cap Recharger II

    Damage Control II
    2x Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    2x Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
    2x Khanid Navy Capacitor Power Relay

    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

    EVEHQ says it's 2,589m or 2.6b. Not sure if that's correct, but looking at most of the numbers it has listed it looks about right. I went with the C-type EANMs since they're not too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Also not sure RRAs do anything for cap ships. Moar cap regen!
    EVEHQ says they do, not sure if that's realistic or not, but it doesn't matter RRAs don't help local tank, and anyone who isn't an alpha fleet(Basically anyone in a wormhole) and doesn't primary the Archon on the field is a retard. Letting a triage Archon sit and do it's business is a recipe for disaster. You drop an Archon for the threat of it's reps, the realism of it's local tank. Yes, meta RRs make an Archon have stupid rep power at nearly 4k a second, you're pretty much going to be primary as soon as you show up on the field unless the gang knows they can't break your local tank and are instead hoping you fuck up.

    For that reasoning, a CCC is better than any RRA. Also means if you have the isk for some but not all meta stuff, meta your reps before you do your RRs.
    I thought a common way to cap out an Archon in triage is to apply damage on another target, while capping out the Archon since the remote repairs will always be hungrier than a local rep. That was my reasoning behind the RRA. The repair rigs that don't effect a capital ship are all for local reps.

  9. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yashir Wong View Post
    I thought a common way to cap out an Archon in triage is to apply damage on another target, while capping out the Archon since the remote repairs will always be hungrier than a local rep. That was my reasoning behind the RRA. The repair rigs that don't effect a capital ship are all for local reps.
    Will definitely cap them out, but you're not applying DPS meanwhile. Forcing an Archon to manage his own cap and armor levels is more likely to net you the kill on the Archon. Unless there's something more tactically valuable on the field, primarying the Archon and capping him dry is the best bet.

  10. #690

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    we'll have something a bit more detailed tonight or tomorrow but, we just killed a 40b+ chimera.

    http://www.evenews24.com/2012/02/10/...er-of-w-space/

  11. #691

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    we'll have something a bit more detailed tonight or tomorrow but, we just killed a 40b+ chimera.

    http://www.evenews24.com/2012/02/10/...er-of-w-space/

    shit heap makin me shit double double posts. big surprise there :eyeroll:

  12. #692
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    And all those tengus, and then the odd pod. Talons?

  13. #693

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post


    And all those tengus, and then the odd pod. Talons?
    pod was from a tengu that died on the other side of the wormhole iirc.

  14. #694
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Sorry I meant the 3.3bil carrier's pod. The other, faction, carrier loss. http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12403814

    Scratch that, I was right the first time, the 'super' pilot's pod http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12404976
    Crystals don't work on cap ships, right. But isn't there something better than 3 Talons and, most specifically, the Omega?
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; February 10 2012 at 10:24:26 PM.

  15. #695
    Lowa [NSN]'s Avatar
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    Not every day you go home with 17b worth of lewt from one ship.
    But that it tanked 4m damage without remote rep has to be considered good use of the fitting no?
    I assume it triaged at some point but still...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    I would create a dragon made out of vaginas. Then I would create a dragon made out of dicks. Then I would have them fight to the death.

  16. #696
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    I forgot pulsars also give that cap bonus. I do like that he had 2 shield boosters to burn out.
    Why not one single bhaalgorn on the kill, AHARM? Just a neut domi and a carrier for cap warfare (maybe the NMs utility highs too, but still)? Surely you could field the logis to keep any BS alive. BR!

  17. #697

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    bhaalgorns are rather 2011 don't you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    I forgot pulsars also give that cap bonus. I do like that he had 2 shield boosters to burn out.
    Why not one single bhaalgorn on the kill, AHARM? Just a neut domi and a carrier for cap warfare (maybe the NMs utility highs too, but still)? Surely you could field the logis to keep any BS alive. BR!
    Knowing how much a regular chimera sucked in a pulsar to try and cap out, I ran the numbers on this in EFT just to see.

    At level 5, this thing can run the entire setup, triage, 2x capital shield boosters, and 2x capital remote reps indefinitely, at 67% cap stability.

    It takes 36 Heavy Neuts to bring this down to 8 minutes of cap. If the carrier pilot pops a strong mindflood, it takes 56 heavy neuts to damage the cap stability. If the carrier pilot turns off the capital remote reps, it takes 77 heavy neuts to cap it out.

  19. #699
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    How many Talisman'd Bhaalgorn's is that then? About 5?
    What can it tank? PyFA and EFT are telling me something over 39k dps using heat, at that 67-69% stable (turn off the ATs), before ganglinks. ~1.67m EHP too. If he'd used a Strong Blue Pill as was in the cargo, and if they work on caps, and with maxed tengu ganglinks(plenty of said ships & mindlinks about in that system it seems) it could have been tanking ~73k dps perma, 114k max.

    Not sure about the PDS, another CPR and trading a CR for a second Invuln gets you to ~70k peak dps tanked at ~53% all going before drugs. That's the 39k figure without needing heat, aka perma. Ganglinks get it to ~77k perma, 140k dps max. Also about 1mil more EHP than the other fit. Strong Blue pushes that to ~100k perma-tanked, 180+k dps tanked with heat.
    You are risking the drug side-effects though either way. 30% bonus for 30-22.5% reduced cap/boost amount.

    In hindsight, if AHARM didn't throw a few cheap bhaalgorns at it because it was a pulsar (BR!), would you go nearly double the peak tank or 5k GJ & 800GJ/s more cap? You could take a mindflood with the second fit if neuts arrived and it comes out tanking that ~7k more dps & 50% more EHP after links before heat. It is still more strained to run the STs but a 10% bigger cap buffer to have to push past a 15% lower peak. Perhaps the first fit was best. Only a few dreads could come in at a time, more chance of a gang of BSs being fed cap from logis.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; February 11 2012 at 11:18:29 AM.

  20. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowa [NSN] View Post
    Not every day you go home with 17b worth of lewt from one ship.
    But that it tanked 4m damage without remote rep has to be considered good use of the fitting no?
    I assume it triaged at some point but still...
    he was in triage on the field for ~30 minutes while we killed all his buddies

    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    I forgot pulsars also give that cap bonus. I do like that he had 2 shield boosters to burn out.
    Why not one single bhaalgorn on the kill, AHARM? Just a neut domi and a carrier for cap warfare (maybe the NMs utility highs too, but still)? Surely you could field the logis to keep any BS alive. BR!
    i'll see what we can sort out for a BR; I assume that something will be coming up in the blog at least in a few days

    nothing but props to these guys for bringing a fight twice against us with limited numbers, and for going down with mighty space honour in the end - he certainly had the time to SD, and he didn't.

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