Wormhole Space (147 posts deleted and counting)

[Nobody_Holme]

Chipping in to mention that GT just roll through, look for a gank, and then roll out whenever I see them around.

AHARM roll in with at least 2 battleships for each pilot who lives in the hole. (not players, even, characters).

narwhals and adhoc, meanwhile, banzai in with waaaay too little stuff, lose a few, kill a couple, and then bring in their numbers to have a camp on either side of a hole that cant handle the mass either way.

Everyone smacks. Yes, me too.

Wormholes without the blobs (hello, aharm, CCRES (if they even still exist) when fighting, therussians(tm)...) are the cool part of eve. thats about it.

[Lord Maldoror]

While justifying 'NATO' to its many critics, Two step said:

We (AHARM) certainly would not have been there if the starbridge gang was a more reasonable size. It is stupid that w-space is now seeing gangs of 100+. When we invaded CCRES we had like 60 people in fleet, and that was the highest I had expected to see in w-space. It would be a real shame if w-space turned into this sort of large fleet warfare, because I liked the 10 v. 10 fights that were more common.

AHARM in general doesn't like to have blues, so the current blueness will be ending soonish, we need to wipe out a few Russian systems first. Then we will be back to no blues, which will be great.

So after saying this, you went blue to:

1) Narwhals Ate my Duck
2) No Holes Barred
3) Adhocracy Inc,
4) Aquila ?
5) Transmission Lost
6) Talocan ?

and some others? And then got 150 guys together to try and attack a wormhole owned by a small but elite corp? And let's not forget, spending a long time first moving in a monster capfleet (by wormhole standards). I don't mind actually, such is Eve, and the beauty of fighting a blob is that in many ways one can't lose.

Come on, Mr. Lord Maldoror, if you are going to quote numbers, you could at least quote proper ones. You guys have 40+ folks in T3s in there, plus plenty of folks in all those logged off triage carriers/dreads. I think a fairer number would be closer to 60.

No, I think 30 is a fair number, 40 is me being very generous. Remember this is all taking place at 0400 in the morning and we're not going to be able to get as many as we could in a peak EU TZ. But even then, I have screens of your 100man gang which doesn't include the capfleet + other toys you have logged off in our wormhole. You'll note from the screenshot we have 21 in gang which includes several scouts and inactive players.

As for "collapsing holes", have a look at the screenshot again - the wormhole is in good condition. There is a T2 anchorable bubble on the wormhole. My carrier is 46km from the wormhole. A few support cannot quickly collapse it. Perhaps we could warp off, kill it and try and warp back in at zero - but you should be able to see those assets aligning at a POS since it has considerable EHP. Perhaps we have a cloaked carrier - but surely if we've had a carrier cloaked there for a long time, you'd have seen it with a covert and logged in some assets to kill what would have been an isolated capital. Have a look for yourself, my carrier is on the middle right:



The notion of 'collapsing holes' is being presented as some indication that if you'd gone for it we'd somehow have been able to collapse the wormhole - even though the evidence points strongly otherwise. Moreover, why is it so difficult for seven wormhole alliances to enter anyway? You have enough assets logged off there to prevent any random cloaked carriers collapsing wormholes. It's like assembling a naval armada and then deciding that the wind chill factor isn't optimum and then giving up.

For weeks we've been treated to page after page on this thread about the AHARM-led NATO coalition and its might. This guy sums it up pretty well:

Anglo WH entities banding together to fight off invasion of large russkie blob: cool/impressive
Anglo WH entities remaining banded together to invade/blob 20-30 single-TZ frenchies: not so cool/impressive, but eh, that's eve
Anglo WH entities failing to accomplish anything against said frenchies, losing a bunch of ships in the process, and then whining about blueballs/ganks: lololololol

[Daneel Trevize]

Back to actual spaceships, would not a carrier be able to rep another if it were ~50km away? And you have some of the finest triage/RR pilots & fits. I'd see any cloaked carrier on the other side as bait, not vulnerable to being ninja'd inside the largest bubble. To ensure the mass was used, I'd expect another cloaked inside your bubble close to/in jump range. But then I'm paranoid.

[Curufin]

Chipping in to mention that GT just roll through, look for a gank, and then roll out whenever I see them around.

I don't know where this idea come from (in fact I have, but I prefer to not feed more anger).

In this thread, you will find some BR from us. This year, we gave at least one fight to CCRES, NARWHAL and AHARM in their home system, without outnumbered them. They never did. We also had multiple fights against NORCORP in neutral systems. They were the only one giving us some fun at home, when they tried to invade us (the first time).

Most of the reports are on this thread. If you read everything, you will see also another kind of fight we are working on, using our T3 Fleet at the edge of the WH and 0.0.


Yes, we also have many kills that you consider "gank", like every single corp in EvE do. Is that bad ? We don't think so. When you see 5 guys that you can engage with a 10 man fleet, you don't give up. The fight turns around scouting and hunting. You have to probe without being spotted, use wisely the WH mechanic and experience new strategies to catch your targets. If you fail, you have nothing, you lose, but you learn. We discuss every misstakes, even in a gank. So yes, we also do "gank", it improves our hunting skills and our wormhole knowledge. But this is not our main goal.

If we could have an epic fight everyday, I would be definitly pleased. We don't find such opportunities everyday. But there is not a single FC in Guillotine and Fairlight, not looking for that

[Lord Maldoror]

Back to actual spaceships, would not a carrier be able to rep another if it were ~50km away? And you have some of the finest triage/RR pilots & fits. I'd see any cloaked carrier on the other side as bait, not vulnerable to being ninja'd inside the largest bubble. To ensure the mass was used, I'd expect another cloaked inside your bubble close to/in jump range. But then I'm paranoid.

This is our home wormhole, we didn't have anything the other side. I should have given a bit more context to it, sorry. Basically, the call came and I warped in from a POS and hit the edge of the anchored bubble, as you'd expect. At this point I think the NATO coalition had to cross a system or two of wh space in order to jump in. But my point is that I would have found it difficult to get to the wormhole in time to collapse it. We had more warping in behind me of course, so perhaps they believed there was smaller stuff that might MWD over and start collapsing or something - I still find it unlikely though and I don't know what more we could do within the mechanics to try and encourage a fight.

[Daneel Trevize]

I lol'd while slurping chocolate milk from my sippy cup and now I'm all sticky!

Last edited by Grarr Dexx; October 19 2011 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Very nice and all but lets just stick to discussing wormhole fights ok?

I wonder what did you originally say..?

This is our home wormhole, we didn't have anything the other side. I should have given a bit more context to it, sorry. Basically, the call came and I warped in from a POS and hit the edge of the anchored bubble, as you'd expect. At this point I think the NATO coalition had to cross a system or two of wh space in order to jump in. But my point is that I would have found it difficult to get to the wormhole in time to collapse it. We had more warping in behind me of course, so perhaps they believed there was smaller stuff that might MWD over and start collapsing or something - I still find it unlikely though and I don't know what more we could do within the mechanics to try and encourage a fight.

Maybe use a HIC/interdictor rather than tougher, constant T2 large bubble? Sit your gang in the bubble so if they get polarity they'll need to have enough DPS+RR or die (or be interdiction nullifier fit)? Take your fleet out of your home and meet them half way?

Just remembering my time with a small bunch in w-space, we'd live in a C5 wolf-rayet and have caps as an option, but would take our favourite armour ships + 2 guardians to black holes, pulsars if it meant we'd get pew (sometimes we'd reship to shield ships we were mostly inexperienced in, hardly different flying style though, fuck nano, point blank punch up on the hole or bust usually). I guess you're dealing with different levels of dps/amount of tackle on the primary, they'll have no hope to escape/survive without plenty of support vs a well fitted & flown enemy, but for vs smaller/weaker opponents, a bit of over-aggression and 'fuck it, they're internet spaceships, we don't lose them often & can earn them back fast' certainly led to a fun or sometimes lolbad event rather than certain bad non-event.

[Lord Maldoror]

Take your fleet out of your home and meet them half way?

Remember they have a capital fleet logged off in our wormhole though, along with support.

The problem with meeting them half way, which would be in the wormhole system next door, would be the assets they have in our wormhole, logged off. They spent presumably months (?) moving in the large capital fleet via chain-collapsing. And in the more recent times they also have (or had) support logged off here.

If we had gone into the static to fight the incoming invasion force there rather than on the bubble, the hostiles could simply have used their existing force in our wormhole (which ought to already have outnumbered us) to gain control while we were outside.

[XenosisReaper]

Take your fleet out of your home and meet them half way?

Remember they have a capital fleet logged off in our wormhole though, along with support.

The problem with meeting them half way, which would be in the wormhole system next door, would be the assets they have in our wormhole, logged off. They spent presumably months (?) moving in the large capital fleet via chain-collapsing. And in the more recent times they also have (or had) support logged off here.

If we had gone into the static to fight the incoming invasion force there rather than on the bubble, the hostiles could simply have used their existing force in our wormhole (which ought to already have outnumbered us) to gain control while we were outside.

Surely in that case they could have just logged everyone on and jumped the forces they had outside into your hole and curbstomped you?

[Lord Maldoror]

Surely in that case they could have just logged everyone on and jumped the forces they had outside into your hole and curbstomped you?

History has taught them otherwise on counting their chickens for a curbstomping but fortune favours the bold and they should certainly have tried.

[Daneel Trevize]

LM, ok fair enough you were talking about an invasion rather than just general pew, but what about the less robust hole bubble? Maybe next time, eh, if AHARM/NATO need all the confidence help they can get? At least a HIC can't be certain to pod itself, and you get to play with dps/timers & save if it you're lucky.

[Mesh M]

If you have less robust bubble (especially the hic suggested) we could just have killed it and immediately warped a cap in, thereby exactly doing what our friends feared we would do. Frankly speaking, i wonder what kind of red carpet reception our hostiles expected. Rommel certainly didn't serve champagne and escargots at Omaha beach in '44 either.

If hostiles have

a) TZ superiority (even with batphone working we won't get our max numbers at that time online, i myself went to bed after shadowing the hostile fleet for hours in kaaputenen and jita)
b) mass caps logged out in our wh
c) about 30-50 support logged out in our wh
d) a blob of 100 guys trying to get in

and we have like 25 guys sitting there, opening the door halfway (by not collapsing or sitting a zero), i wonder what else we could have done to encourage the invasion. I don't think anybody posting in this thread is seriously suggesting you should, in any situation, completely fight on the condition of a hostile force that is outnumbering you at least 3:1. In fact its more or less standing operations procedure for almost all WH corps to engage only on hostile terrain if a) either the hostiles suck, b) the hostiles can be surprised or c) you can estabilsh a beachhead for an invasion by securing the entrance.

Even the evictions that supposedly went balls deep are most often just based on the knowledge that the target certainly won't be able to beat your eviction force, leaving you with ample time to extract after bulldozing the structures.

[two step]

While justifying 'NATO' to its many critics, Two step said:

We (AHARM) certainly would not have been there if the starbridge gang was a more reasonable size. It is stupid that w-space is now seeing gangs of 100+. When we invaded CCRES we had like 60 people in fleet, and that was the highest I had expected to see in w-space. It would be a real shame if w-space turned into this sort of large fleet warfare, because I liked the 10 v. 10 fights that were more common.

AHARM in general doesn't like to have blues, so the current blueness will be ending soonish, we need to wipe out a few Russian systems first. Then we will be back to no blues, which will be great.

So after saying this, you went blue to:

1) Narwhals Ate my Duck
2) No Holes Barred
3) Adhocracy Inc,
4) Aquila ?
5) Transmission Lost
6) Talocan ?

and some others? And then got 150 guys together to try and attack a wormhole owned by a small but elite corp? And let's not forget, spending a long time first moving in a monster capfleet (by wormhole standards). I don't mind actually, such is Eve, and the beauty of fighting a blob is that in many ways one can't lose.

Firstly, we weren't blue to all those folks. Secondly, last I checked, there were a lot more than just GT folks in that hole, and that happened *well* before our planned attack.

Come on, Mr. Lord Maldoror, if you are going to quote numbers, you could at least quote proper ones. You guys have 40+ folks in T3s in there, plus plenty of folks in all those logged off triage carriers/dreads. I think a fairer number would be closer to 60.

No, I think 30 is a fair number, 40 is me being very generous. Remember this is all taking place at 0400 in the morning and we're not going to be able to get as many as we could in a peak EU TZ. But even then, I have screens of your 100man gang which doesn't include the capfleet + other toys you have logged off in our wormhole. You'll note from the screenshot we have 21 in gang which includes several scouts and inactive players.

As for "collapsing holes", have a look at the screenshot again - the wormhole is in good condition. There is a T2 anchorable bubble on the wormhole. My carrier is 46km from the wormhole. A few support cannot quickly collapse it. Perhaps we could warp off, kill it and try and warp back in at zero - but you should be able to see those assets aligning at a POS since it has considerable EHP. Perhaps we have a cloaked carrier - but surely if we've had a carrier cloaked there for a long time, you'd have seen it with a covert and logged in some assets to kill what would have been an isolated capital. Have a look for yourself, my carrier is on the middle right:

I have to give you credit here, you did an excellent job of not reading or responding to a full half of my post. You had a full 35 people on http://www.rooksandkings.com/killboa...l&kll_id=31829 which was the day before the invasion. You can't plead late timezones, as we would have been in the hole a lot earlier had you guys not collapsed the hole every time you saw people probing the chain. I don't blame you guys doing that btw, that is exactly what I would be doing if I didn't want a fight.

The notion of 'collapsing holes' is being presented as some indication that if you'd gone for it we'd somehow have been able to collapse the wormhole - even though the evidence points strongly otherwise. Moreover, why is it so difficult for seven wormhole alliances to enter anyway? You have enough assets logged off there to prevent any random cloaked carriers collapsing wormholes. It's like assembling a naval armada and then deciding that the wind chill factor isn't optimum and then giving up.

You did a great job quoting me in the rest of the post, but here I left out the quote. I'll help you by putting it back in:

I think we had around 70 in the fleet the other weekend. The problem is, our route into your wormhole was only a nullsec that was deep in dronelands, and we had to go through another C1 to get there, so would have only been able to push 25-30 cruisers through, which we judged as not enough to fight you. We did have a perfectly good highsec route scanned out earlier, but you closed that one, despite your claims to want fights.

If you read that part, you will see I wasn't talking about collapsing holes with the one you left open, I was talking about earlier in the evening. The one you keep showing pics of we had the issue with a C1, and that wouldn't have allowed enough mass through to fight you. I know you seem to think we had tens or hundreds of pilots logged out in your system, but that isn't the truth.

Anyway, I think this argument has long since run its course, so I will stop with this post. I'm sure we will run into each other again, and hopefully next time we will have a *battle* report to post here.

[Lord Maldoror]

Hey guys, I believe I speak for most of failheap when I ask for an end to this discussion about non-fights. I enjoy the interesting and articulate battlereports often found in this thread, especially since wormhole space is my main interest in this otherwise faltering game. I don't care about the 'truth', I just want some entertainment to give credence to the comforting illusion that WH space is the last vestige of fun.

This is important because we've been exposed to a month of NATO chestbeating on here, and people wondered what would happen to wormhole space's first coalition. That question elevates it to the status of something that merits discussion. An entity like NATO was once unthinkable in wormhole space.

[Grarr Dexx]

Hey guys, I believe I speak for most of failheap when I ask for an end to this discussion about non-fights. I enjoy the interesting and articulate battlereports often found in this thread, especially since wormhole space is my main interest in this otherwise faltering game. I don't care about the 'truth', I just want some entertainment to give credence to the comforting illusion that WH space is the last vestige of fun.

Here here. I'm done playing nice cause it just seems you faggots can't either. Entrox has allowed us sub mods to infract posts, and five infractions means you're on a one week vacation for the whole goddamned forum. Now, play nice.

[Lord Maldoror]

Firstly, we weren't blue to all those folks.

Let me stop at your at 'firstly'.


You weren't blue to them? Let's have a look at the fleet for a moment and see who you are in gang with:



Now let's take some random names from the fleet:

Pagan585 - Narwhals Ate My Duck
Blast GoDon - Adhocracy Inc.
Revein - No Holes Barred
and so on...

Do you see a pattern here? And yes, if you'd like I can get a screenshot of you with them, Two Step flying a Legion.


You disown people rather quickly.

If you read that part, you will see I wasn't talking about collapsing holes with the one you left open, I was talking about earlier in the evening. The one you keep showing pics of we had the issue with a C1, and that wouldn't have allowed enough mass through to fight you. I know you seem to think we had tens or hundreds of pilots logged out in your system, but that isn't the truth.

Nonsense. Why would you bring your NATO fleet to the wh if there was no way of going through it? Why fly from Kaaputenen to the wh entry in Ostingele?

It doesn't make any sense.



And you seem to be trying hard not to eat your words regarding the NATO coalition. Remember what you said here:

We (AHARM) certainly would not have been there if the starbridge gang was a more reasonable size. It is stupid that w-space is now seeing gangs of 100+. When we invaded CCRES we had like 60 people in fleet, and that was the highest I had expected to see in w-space. It would be a real shame if w-space turned into this sort of large fleet warfare, because I liked the 10 v. 10 fights that were more common.

AHARM in general doesn't like to have blues, so the current blueness will be ending soonish, we need to wipe out a few Russian systems first. Then we will be back to no blues, which will be great.

Now if you want to leave it there, be my guest - but it's important eve history learns the lessons of wormhole space blobbing and that the ups and downs are plain sight for posterity.

[Rengas]

I'm genuinely confused as to why you sought to censor my post Grarr, as I was merely echoing Smuggo's jovial sentiment of disbelief at an increasingly convoluted thread.

With that being said I'd like to ask why the Pewalition (NATO) forces spent so much time and effort in gaining an entrance to the GT system by trying to scan a route from the GT static (which could be easily cycled by RnK forces) instead of just piling up in a wormhole with a static connection to whatever class wh GT live in and cycling till they open up into them.



Edit: I believe this course of action was eventually taken. However, only after hours of frustration and e-honor defamation.

[two step]

I'm genuinely confused as to why you sought to censor my post Grarr, as I was merely echoing Smuggo's jovial sentiment of disbelief at an increasingly convoluted thread.

With that being said I'd like to ask why the Pewalition (NATO) forces spent so much time and effort in gaining an entrance to the GT system by trying to scan a route from the GT static (which could be easily cycled by RnK forces) instead of just piling up in a wormhole with a static connection to whatever class wh GT live in and cycling till they open up into them.



Edit: I believe this course of action was eventually taken. However, only after hours of frustration and e-honor defamation.

They live in a class 5 wormhole, which is a lot harder to chain collapse into, because there are 512 of them, vs. 113 C6s. Since it seems to average about a weekend or so of chain collapsing to get into a C6, a week and a half of collapsing sounds terrible to me. In general, folks in C5s are a lot less vulnerable than C6 dwellers...

[Nobody_Holme]

Chipping in to mention that GT just roll through, look for a gank, and then roll out whenever I see them around.

I don't know where this idea come from (in fact I have, but I prefer to not feed more anger).

In this thread, you will find some BR from us. This year, we gave at least one fight to CCRES, NARWHAL and AHARM in their home system, without outnumbered them. They never did. We also had multiple fights against NORCORP in neutral systems. They were the only one giving us some fun at home, when they tried to invade us (the first time).

Most of the reports are on this thread. If you read everything, you will see also another kind of fight we are working on, using our T3 Fleet at the edge of the WH and 0.0.


Yes, we also have many kills that you consider "gank", like every single corp in EvE do. Is that bad ? We don't think so. When you see 5 guys that you can engage with a 10 man fleet, you don't give up. The fight turns around scouting and hunting. You have to probe without being spotted, use wisely the WH mechanic and experience new strategies to catch your targets. If you fail, you have nothing, you lose, but you learn. We discuss every misstakes, even in a gank. So yes, we also do "gank", it improves our hunting skills and our wormhole knowledge. But this is not our main goal.

If we could have an epic fight everyday, I would be definitly pleased. We don't find such opportunities everyday. But there is not a single FC in Guillotine and Fairlight, not looking for that

Note: I wasnt saying its a bad thing, and i've only actually seen you guys while either totally off-timezone in CCRES' old C6, or in assorted lower-class holes. In none of those cases were you getting a fight. Ditto AHARM (although there were a couple of encounters against them while in CCRES, some of which turned into fights, some of which turned into hole collapses while grunts were told to POS up and shut up)

The point remains that none of the entities i mentioned were going to get a fair fight, and most cases, were unlikely to get a gank (theres a few baitships that got left in armour from being cocky, mind), and GT actually act as I would in the situations i've seen. BATTLESHIPWALL in a wormhole known to be occupied by a max of 10 guys who're visibly around in bombers and a recon and willing to engage, as a route to gank something down the chain beyond them, with a carrier in support, thats not something i'd do, but then again, AHARM have a better killboard record than me, so whos to argue.

The fun fights with everyone else big are, well, fun... but red on your killboard makes baby CEO cry, so I can totally understand why people dont like that stuff, and its not like i've ever really given those to anyone else, so I cant reasonably complain about other people not doing it to me...

[Lallante]

How did this thread go from among the best on FHC to among the worst so fast?

Race to the bottom, post quality wise, between AHARM and RnK, won by the outsider RnK for complaining about blobs and :fairfites:.

Both sides: shut the fuck up.

[Cassius Longinus]

The thing that is dumb about number talk is that 40 solaces on a T3 is some 21k DPS repped. It's a relevant number when you think of the kind of engagements this thread is sometimes about.