Wormhole Space (147 posts deleted and counting)

[LordsServant]

I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

More importantly, it's just stupid. If you want to force carebears to fight, your only answer is to gank them if they're in a C4 or lower. I understand that in wormhole space it's important to have a bit more security, but a small 4 man corp shouldn't be able to hide for days behind a POS while a significantly larger corp has no opportunity to force them out. I don't have a suggestion that would work, I just think the system is broken.

No.

The best thing about W-Space is that it does, to some extent, counter the usual Eve logic of more people = better. Just because some corp is just a few buddies playing the game, or doesn't just take on any fucking idiot into their ranks, why should that then make them subservient to some bigger corp/alliance? Your post typified the 0.0 attitude of "why can't my blob win, it's not fair, I have more friends".

Why do you even care that a few noobs have a WH fortress? It's not like the gudfites are going to suddenly flow because the POS has less EHP.

You just want a few pathetic and easy ganks. WH POS mechanics are fine as they are.

I don't think your grasp of WH mechanics is all the way there m8.

Noobs shouldn't have a WH fortress.

A few GOOD people are welcome to have a WH fortress. This already exists without POS - if someone comes into your system, hop into 1-2 triage archons, 2-3 tracking dreads, 2-3 lokis/bhaalgorns, and you can easily rape an exponentially larger group (just make sure u blap the bhaalgorns first, or use your bhaals to win the capacitor war.

The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do. Noone likes bashing POS with subcaps, and noone wants to spend weeks camping a system to starve them out with absolutely no fights in between. (Only reason you'd do this is if you REALLY hated them, or wanted to invade their WH in which case they're fucked unless they pay my alliance a lot of money to come save them. =D )

This does not make for good or engaging gameplay for the odd passer by just looking for "good fights."

CCP should do something to make the "run to POS, hide/log off for a few hours" method much less effective, or counterable besides "setup cloaky dictor inline, bubble when u make urself known, hope their t3's arent nullified."

[Smuggo]

The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do. Noone likes bashing POS with subcaps, and noone wants to spend weeks camping a system to starve them out with absolutely no fights in between.

So it's not okay for them to have an easy time sitting in the pos, but it should be okay for you to have an easy time killing the pos? Double standards much?

[Duckslayer]

Hi there my name is duckslayer and i live in a wormhole so that at no point do i ever have to actually shoot pos or sov structures. i think that lordsservant may be doing it wrong. Maybe if you want the 4 corp of noobs to pew, turning up with a 20 man pos bashing fleet isnt going to get fights of ~:HONOURE:~

[corbex]

To be honest this isnt just a problem in low class wh's is alot of people in c5 or c6 who are there purely to farm isk that at teh first sign of a new sig in theer system log off in site, or in a pos. and its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system only for them to log caps and be abck in business a week later. Most these people also use the leaching method to make it even safer so sleepers dont get in range to point or nuet them, hopefully ccp will fix this or just declare it a expliot.

[Duckslayer]

its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGID NGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNG

[Artjay]

its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGID NGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNG

[Qui Shon]

To be honest this isnt just a problem in low class wh's is alot of people in c5 or c6 who are there purely to farm isk that at teh first sign of a new sig in theer system log off in site, or in a pos. and its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system only for them to log caps and be abck in business a week later. Most these people also use the leaching method to make it even safer so sleepers dont get in range to point or nuet them, hopefully ccp will fix this or just declare it a expliot.

What's this lee(a)ching method? Using range setup and warping out before sleepers get in point range?
I "watched" on d-scan some Russian corp killing sleepers with two Revs and nothing else, but they warped out of site before I could get probes on them (radar or something non-anom). If that's what you're talking about then I don't see the problem, or why it would be an exploit?

There's still methods to catch them, in fact its easier now as logoffski doesn't stop aggression like it used to, so imho it's already been made more ganker friendly.

[Damien Smith]

"Oh noes! People actually spend the time, isk and effort to build an easily defensible home and I don't like the advantages that gives them"

Why should any random pubbie gank fleet be given carte blanche to destroy POS's at will? You want them dead, you put the fucking effort in...

[Artjay]

I wrote this this morning and realised it was a bit strongly worded so I trashed it, but then I read Lordsservants post and dug it out of the Recycle Bin.

___________________________________________


I realise I’m going to piss off some people with this post and will get a lot of ‘didn’t want you in w-space anyways’ replies but fuck it.

I recently left w-space to head back to null-sec, and one of the factors was the recent entrenchment of the mantra, I think originally touted by K162 and relentlessly copied by many other sycophantic wannabes of 'contribute to w-space or get out’. This is bullshit; people who espouse it come across as looking like they have limited understanding of both human interaction and eve-online.

Dont get me wrong, I love the mechanics of w-space, and i dont deny that there are some awesome fights to be had, but too many people seem to fail to grasp the fact that eve is a sandbox, and that wormholes are not the arenas of world of warcraft where you line up against each other, proceed to attack in a gentlemanly fashion before bowing to each other at the end and proceeding back to their respective POS’es. No. Eve online is a sandbox game, and whether you care to admit it or not - the majority of w-space is a gankbox game.

It appears to me that the ‘contribute or get out’ club has evolved over time in order to act as a comfort blanket to those corps who use it. These corps think that not doing much and using expensive ships makes them good at PVP when actually it mans that, they don’t have to put as much effort into invading other peoples space to make themselves look hard since they only invade people who don’t have the intention of defending themselves. Additionally, it prevents attack on their own systems by the only people that have the capability to competently mount an invasion.

The recent unification of many said corps to send a ‘message’ to that shit AAA corp, confirmed my perception that the higher echelons of w-space are gagging for another large-scale invasion/battle similar to when Starbridge & Co. invaded Aquila so they can try and stay evenews24 relevant, yet are far to risk averse/lazy to co-ordinate an attack in case it ends up with another miserable failure like when they tried to invade Guillotine therapy space.

Back to the sandbox part, obviously in this game people set your own goals, and if making a big wad of cash is your goal, then safe-ing up every time a Narwhals/whoever guy jumps into your system is probably a wise thing to do. As long as w-space is the most lucrative form of ISK income (besides possibly moon goo and being a whiz at the markets) it will be filled with alt-corps for people who plex-to-play, people who are saving for a titan, whatever. Part of the sandbox is creating your own content. There are plenty of ways to force a conflict with someone and if you can’t be bothered to put in the effort or don’t have the imagination to make that happen… deal with it.

[corbex]

To be honest this isnt just a problem in low class wh's is alot of people in c5 or c6 who are there purely to farm isk that at teh first sign of a new sig in theer system log off in site, or in a pos. and its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system only for them to log caps and be abck in business a week later. Most these people also use the leaching method to make it even safer so sleepers dont get in range to point or nuet them, hopefully ccp will fix this or just declare it a expliot.

What's this lee(a)ching method? Using range setup and warping out before sleepers get in point range?
I "watched" on d-scan some Russian corp killing sleepers with two Revs and nothing else, but they warped out of site before I could get probes on them (radar or something non-anom). If that's what you're talking about then I don't see the problem, or why it would be an exploit?

There's still methods to catch them, in fact its easier now as logoffski doesn't stop aggression like it used to, so imho it's already been made more ganker friendly.

you basically extend the grid to about 450 km and then just warp in all caps at once 2 dreads 2 carrier the sleeper bs will only go 250km from the spawn point then they hit a invisible wall and bounce against it so they never get in point or neut range and the dreads can just sit 150 to 200km from them picking them off with no worries at all as they have 0 transveral.

[Sandslinger]

you basically extend the grid to about 450 km and then just warp in all caps at once 2 dreads 2 carrier the sleeper bs will only go 250km from the spawn point then they hit a invisible wall and bounce against it so they never get in point or neut range and the dreads can just sit 150 to 200km from them picking them off with no worries at all as they have 0 transveral.

Dingduckding and we have a winner....Figured you all knew this......I guess not

A corp doesn't need a pos to be complete isk whores in WH all they need is capitals and in the lower classes they don't even need that.

In fact POS's represent investment in WH and in the system itself. the more POS's the larger the investment.

Once a corp has put some up you actually have means of hurting them before that If a corp or hell a multiboxer does it right there is no actual ingame method of catching them. besides perhaps logging off in the site you think they are going to do next and praying and hoping that somehow you land directly on top of them when you log in..which well you won't if they do it right.

Perhaps CCP could do something to make pos shoots more fun or whatever tbh I would be more worried about them breaking the game if they tried but that's just me.

In any case that's 3 pages worth of emo/hurt feelings/vague and not so vague insults. These kind of discussions always end up this way there's 6 classes and people with hugely varying playstyles there will be no agreement here........

Could we perhaps take this discussion somewhere else now ?? . I keep seeing this thread updated and I get all excited as it's usually excelent content yet there's 3 pages of pure disapoint now

[Durzel]

The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do.

The blob could bring less ships, you know, to encourage an actual fight. Bringing a disproportionate number of ships to try and get a fight out of people who you should assume are reticent to fight unless their history suggests otherwise seems like a pretty dumb strategy. Is it any wonder these people recoil when they see everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them?

Some people won't fight if they see one ship appear on dscan, others might fight if they think they can win. Few will fight if they already know they are heavily outnumbered and will have to rely on a perfect strategy and hope that there aren't any more hostiles on their way, waiting in the wings, or whatever.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Smuggo - people who have a really big issue with POSes in lower class wormholes are basically just people looking to curbstomp bears for no other reason than "because". They aren't looking for ~goodfights~ and they aren't overly concerned about the lack of a fight, since any fight they expect to take place would surely be a one-sided gank in any event. Shockingly people who don't want to fight are invariably bad at fighting and don't have Bhaals and triage Carriers to use on a whim.

[Ampoliros]

I wrote this this morning and realised it was a bit strongly worded so I trashed it, but then I read Lordsservants post and dug it out of the Recycle Bin.

Read your post and the only real argument i see is that "Because eve is a sandbox, carebears have the right to bear without fighting and we should deal with it", which is a pretty bad argument (no offense). Hell, same logic: because eve is a sandbox, i should be able to kick whomever i don't like out of w-space, for whatever reason I want - including for being unapologetic carebears. Point is, there's already space where you don't have to pvp and can bear everyday, it's called highsec. W-space should be for something better.

As to the other parts of your post:
- a good portion of the evictions we (AHARM) do have been against groups that had the capability and numbers to fight us but wouldn't, and we've gotten fights after invading them - Ash alliance, Strag3s, Lightning Knights, 4U holdings. A further good portion have been against groups that should have had the numbers to fight us after invading but basically gaveup and started SDing.
- I can count on one hand the number of times we've had ~honourduels~, and they only happen when numbers are vastly inequal and the alternative is blueballs for everyone.
- The 'security blanket' thing is pretty lol. We dont evict people who fight us because if we did we probably wouldn't have anyone fun to fight.

edit: also, i agree with the honourable gentleman from No Holes Barred (sandslinger). There should be BRs here, not hate

Also also, i thought it was called 'leashing', like the thing that would keep sleepers attached to their structures instead of burning out to shoot you in the face

[two step]

The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do.

The blob could bring less ships, you know, to encourage an actual fight. Bringing a disproportionate number of ships to try and get a fight out of people who you should assume are reticent to fight unless their history suggests otherwise seems like a pretty dumb strategy. Is it any wonder these people recoil when they see everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them?

Some people won't fight if they see one ship appear on dscan, others might fight if they think they can win. Few will fight if they already know they are heavily outnumbered and will have to rely on a perfect strategy and hope that there aren't any more hostiles on their way, waiting in the wings, or whatever.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Smuggo - people who have a really big issue with POSes in lower class wormholes are basically just people looking to curbstomp bears for no other reason than "because". They aren't looking for ~goodfights~ and they aren't overly concerned about the lack of a fight, since any fight they expect to take place would surely be a one-sided gank in any event. Shockingly people who don't want to fight are invariably bad at fighting and don't have Bhaals and triage Carriers to use on a whim.

The one thing that I think is wrong with the near invulnerability of lower class wormhole POSes is that it means other small groups can't come in and invade. I'm not sure the best way to balance it though.

[Smuggo]

I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

[Varcaus]

I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

Not unless who ever wants it up just to stay up to spite you. (unless spais)

[Duckslayer]

I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

Log off and go play something less terrible than eve onlineos shoot mode?

[Durzel]

The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do.

The blob could bring less ships, you know, to encourage an actual fight. Bringing a disproportionate number of ships to try and get a fight out of people who you should assume are reticent to fight unless their history suggests otherwise seems like a pretty dumb strategy. Is it any wonder these people recoil when they see everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them?

Some people won't fight if they see one ship appear on dscan, others might fight if they think they can win. Few will fight if they already know they are heavily outnumbered and will have to rely on a perfect strategy and hope that there aren't any more hostiles on their way, waiting in the wings, or whatever.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Smuggo - people who have a really big issue with POSes in lower class wormholes are basically just people looking to curbstomp bears for no other reason than "because". They aren't looking for ~goodfights~ and they aren't overly concerned about the lack of a fight, since any fight they expect to take place would surely be a one-sided gank in any event. Shockingly people who don't want to fight are invariably bad at fighting and don't have Bhaals and triage Carriers to use on a whim.

The one thing that I think is wrong with the near invulnerability of lower class wormhole POSes is that it means other small groups can't come in and invade. I'm not sure the best way to balance it though.

Yeah I agree there. To be honest it wouldn't be a terrible idea to limit the size of POS you can erect in lower class wormholes and/or even impose some kind of penalty for POS hitpoints in lower class holes to deal with the restrictions on ship types people can bring in. A large tower in a C1 is to all intents and purposes invulnerable unless you really have a problem with the owner, although the new T3 BCs make this a bit more bearable.

[EntroX]

I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

..go on

[Smuggo]

I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

..go on

Infiltrate target corp, gain trust, remove fuel from tower, wait until next tick, shield goes offline, shoot CHA/SMA/Labs, scoop goodies.

Have none of you ever played Eve before?