+1Originally Posted by Cassius Longinus
We've done that since time immemorial (rote policy), because our KB is a record of what's happened in space, and we don't particularly agree with CCP's mechanics on the topic.
Although SD'ing can occassionally work in your favour - for example when someone hits eject by mistake, leaving their 4.5 bill Nag behind as booty.
Fair enough I guess, seems kinda scuzzy though. I get that you work out the fits from ship scanning but everything else is almost completely made up. The ironic thing for me is that whilst you attach weight to your killboard enough to go around faking kills, the act of faking kills subtracts credibility (weight) from it. It means that nothing on there could really be trusted. As shitty the killmail system is - verification means a line is drawn in the sand, you don't get to fake kills for people who SD'd, or people you almost caught, or people you "would've definitely killed if you hadn't burnt a point out", or something. Once you blur the lines with fake mails you ensure that nothing that gets posted can really be trusted as accurate.We've done that since time immemorial (rote policy), because our KB is a record of what's happened in space, and we don't particularly agree with CCP's mechanics on the topic.
EDIT: Nothing wrong with SD'ing, it's largely a failure on CCP's part in terms of recordkeeping, nothing else.
Also fundamentally someone who SDs does so to deprive you of a kill and their loot. They scuttled their ship, you didn't kill them. Yes you can argue semantics and how if you hadn't been there they wouldn't have lost it, and as someone who has sat and watched capitals SD on gangs in W-space I have sympathy for your plight, but fabricating killmails isn't the answer imo. Until CCP fix capital SDs everyone is in the same boat and suffers the same problems equally.
That said if you've been doing it since time immemorial it's not like this post is going to make any difference.
Last edited by Durzel; January 31 2012 at 08:56:36 PM.
We joked around in corp about having our kill board look like:
Kills
Losses
Seppuku
I've been lucky in only seeing a successful SD once or twice but then again I almost never go capital hunting. In a C1 WH several months ago we did have one guy eject from his tengu at half shields and a bit later from his noctis when he meant to SD and eject. Then we jokingly asked him if he had anymore ships to give us which I guess caused him to snap. He began taking his corp mate's ships from the SMA and warping them to us only to eject from them and gather more. I think we walked away with 5-6 ships in total. It was a very surreal yet profitable day in Eve.
nice work.
i would suggest fitting your bhaalgorns properly next time and you won't lose any
http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_de...ll_id=12276303
also +1 for that RnK fight.
love that all out gank fleet
Ouch. No web? cap rechargers and CPR?i would suggest fitting your bhaalgorns properly next time and you won't lose any
http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_de...ll_id=12276303
I love the mining drones though. How very Honey Badger of him.
Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.
"You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."
Its a proof of cowardliness that we can reference at a later time. and its not like it effects anyones killboard.Fair enough I guess, seems kinda scuzzy though. I get that you work out the fits from ship scanning but everything else is almost completely made up. The ironic thing for me is that whilst you attach weight to your killboard enough to go around faking kills, the act of faking kills subtracts credibility (weight) from it. It means that nothing on there could really be trusted. As shitty the killmail system is - verification means a line is drawn in the sand, you don't get to fake kills for people who SD'd, or people you almost caught, or people you "would've definitely killed if you hadn't burnt a point out", or something. Once you blur the lines with fake mails you ensure that nothing that gets posted can really be trusted as accurate.We've done that since time immemorial (rote policy), because our KB is a record of what's happened in space, and we don't particularly agree with CCP's mechanics on the topic.
EDIT: Nothing wrong with SD'ing, it's largely a failure on CCP's part in terms of recordkeeping, nothing else.
Also fundamentally someone who SDs does so to deprive you of a kill and their loot. They scuttled their ship, you didn't kill them. Yes you can argue semantics and how if you hadn't been there they wouldn't have lost it, and as someone who has sat and watched capitals SD on gangs in W-space I have sympathy for your plight, but fabricating killmails isn't the answer imo. Until CCP fix capital SDs everyone is in the same boat and suffers the same problems equally.
That said if you've been doing it since time immemorial it's not like this post is going to make any difference.
You're right, done. http://www.failheap-challenge.com/sh...481#post361481
Something about merging with Narwhals/Exhale/Bite Me?CCRES is now sleeping.
Yeah, it was a bastardized incursion fit, but you make do with what you've got.Ouch. No web? cap rechargers and CPR?i would suggest fitting your bhaalgorns properly next time and you won't lose any
http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_de...ll_id=12276303
I love the mining drones though. How very Honey Badger of him.
"Oh look, Hulks in space!"
I love logging into teamspeak with those words ringing through my ears. It was a good day for a little mining by proxy. Unfortunately our scout soon called out, "Probes on scan".
Looks like they had a probe picket out. The hulks immediately went running for their POS and dressed in some battleships. We assumed they were expecting to crash the wormhole. We decided to stick a flycatcher in there and spent the next hour or so waiting. We occupied our time with little discussions about our plans.
"How will we trap them?"
"Do we really want to seal ourselves into their wormhole?"
"Do we have probes in here?"
"Do we even need Guardians? They're just crashing battleships."
Typical things honestly. At one point they did the smart thing and attempted to scout out our system. We moved the fleet off d-scan and they never found our true strength. Lazy scouts make this game that much easier.
"Huh, Three of them just re-shipped into Archons and a Chimera..."
Well that simplified things. As they warped in, we jumped out, and proceeded to go to town. Pushing our fleet through must have put the wormhole at critical, because a few of their battleships disappeared and a moment later the wormhole vanished. Working with an M267 is frustrating some days. Whatever, we could make it back home later, there were carriers to liberate. We just got to work systematically freeing the remaining fleet from the burden of their ships and implants.
"Looks like they're self destructing boys."
You know, we found those carriers in a C3 too. CCP really needs to give us kill mails for seppuku kills. Maybe we should have let the Sabre die, just so those carriers would be on the battle report.
http://fcftw.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_re...ll_id=12350147
Please excuse my stupid care-bearish question... but from all these reports and other stuff I hear, WH space seems to have much higher percentage of gankers compared to targets than even lowsec? Tiny percentage of naive guys actually do sleeper sites or mining or whatever and 99% of people in WH space are hunting them down.
I don't remember even seeing a successful defense BR about WH space from people who do PVE or industry. Even with WH supposedly preventing blobbing attackers will still stack the odds so that most of "BR" have defending side selfdestructing without even trying to fight.
WTF
Last edited by dzajic; February 6 2012 at 12:57:07 PM.
This is just the way of Eve really.
Wormhole space means your targets don't know you're there, so their choice is either to PVE for sweet, sweet ISK or waste their time playing. Eventually they all bear it up, it's just a question of when.
With lowsec your targets have got instant intel in the form of local so once you've appeared there it doesn't matter who you are or what your intent is - if they're predisposed to run away and cloak (or worse, and more common - automated to do so) then you're shit outta luck.
It also helps that wormhole ISK is very good, and as such it is actually worth the risk using pimp stuff to run the sites. If you are savvy and watch the entrance(s) with cloaked scouts you can be mostly safe, but never 100% safe. New incoming wormholes can appear at any time, and there could be a guy logged off in there who comes online and sees you plexing.
I also think that wormholes have a great feature in that wormhole camps are pretty much a waste of time. When you jump in you're in jump range on the other side so you can just jump out again and laugh at the idiots sat there trying to uncloak you while you're invulnerable. Contrast that with lowsec where you only have to jump into the wrong system at the wrong time in your bloaty PVE ship and land in a camp and you're screwed. And for what? Some token additional bounty and LP from missions. Bleh.
What he said, the w-space hunters pve too, they just know how people pvp and thus how to protect against it.
Also any higher-class w-space gank in an anom is going to need logi ships & the dps to break them on both sides.
And holes need lots of mass so cap ships up the isk on the field quickly.But also you can have a bubbler jump back with you and be sure to bubble you on the other side, when you then have the 4 mins polarity timer. Best-worst case you don't break cloak for 1min on either side, still 2 mins to survive. It's certainly fun.
Highsec holes aren't.
Last edited by Daneel Trevize; February 6 2012 at 03:26:56 PM.
I think this is more of an Eve mentality thing. A pure industry/PvE group that refuses to PvP shouldn't be in lawless space anyway. As other people have said everyone PvEs to some extent in WH space.
Look back several pages to when I wrote up a battle report about my corp doing a defense (or just click the Youtube (Part2) link in my sig). We all figured that we were completely screwed with the 3 we had versus the 35 they brought but we ended up holding our POS and then later blowing up their staging POS a couple of days later. We had no expectation of survival when we went to fight, we just figured that actually trying to fight would be 10x more memorable than huddling inside shields self destructing ships. Now we were very fortunate in how the battle unfolded but we would have never had that chance without trying.
There have been several battle reports in here of people choosing to fight against the odds for WH defense dwarfing ours in scale and "coolness factor". I didn't use them as an example as I can't speak to the mentality of the players in those fights, only the one I personally experienced.
Thanks for answers. And yt links.
go look up the eve news 24 article on what happened when the russians tried invading aquila and got their shit kicked in by narwhals, aquila and aharm. :P
You've got me a little curious. What POS defenses did you have? If it's your current set up, no need to divulge it here. A good POS set up is worth so so much. Even more so if you have gunners. In any event, I hope you gave your Chimera pilot the absolute highest of fives. Triage is a wonderful thing.
Even if that Bhaalgorn showed up, your Chimera might have been able to rep through.
Lastly, Drakes and Guardians. They weren't even Armor fit drakes.
That was a good watch, excellent job!
This reply is a little scattered and quite long, but there's a lot of reasons why most BRs in wormhole space end with one side overwhelmingly outnumbering the other.
Most stories in w-space are about ganks, because PvE isn't exciting. Also, I don't really want to tell you about all the time's I've screwed it up. Don't misunderstand though. I spend most of my time shooting sleepers. I've screwed up plenty of ganks, and have been on the receiving end a few times.
Lets start with PvP that doesn't involve a seige.
Most PvP in w-space ends in a gank, because if everything goes right, your prey won't see you until a bubble goes up around them. If your prey is even remotely attentive, if any one of the your scouts screws up, if anyone gives away your presence, the game is up and your prey escapes. The majority of hunts end with your prey catching wind of you before you can even find them. Experienced prey will know of your presence before you even know they're out there. Even in wormhole space, the hunted have every advantage over the hunters. All it takes is a little bit of effort.
That covers the non seige side of things. Onto what it takes to seige a POS.
You don't see many successful defense BRs, because very few people are foolish or powerful enough to attempt to engage a well defended POS. Defenders will always have the advantage of a POS and its guns. Attackers are literally storming a castle. Even with a dreadnought helping you out, it can take 4 hours of just shooting the POS stick to bring it to reinforced. That's not including the time it takes to bring down the POS modules that are webbing, neuting, jamming and shooting you. If those same mods are controlled by people, expect to see your ships get alpha'd. A properly fit POS with just one gunner can easily alpha a battleship. If the defenders take to the field, bringing down that POS just got that much harder. I like it, because it means evicting a group requires a certain level of dedication and manpower.
One of the hallmarks of a successful POS seige involves controlling the entrance so the other side can't bring in reinforcements. That is typically what will make or break you. You can attempt to do it with a smaller force, but you will never do it with a weaker force. A smaller force with strong logistics and ewar (of every kind, but emphasis on neuts and ecm) will beat a much larger force without.
Which brings me to why Carriers take so many people to kill.
Carriers are among the strongest force multipliers in the game and represent an enormous hurdle. This is especially true in wormhole space where you cannot get anything bigger than a carrier in. A single Archon in triage is worth a little more than 6 Guardians in repping power. That same carrier can shrug off over 15,000 dps without breaking a sweat. It will take close to 17,000 dps to force it down without neutralizers. At 17,000 dps it will probably take 15 minutes to kill it. That's if the carrier pilot decides overheating is for chumps. Typically you need the neuting power of 2 Bhaalgorns fit with 7 heavy neuts and about 10,000 dps to bring a carriers cap to 0 and then kill it. This will take you a little over 3 minutes. If you're insane and decide you don't want Neuts, that means you need over 22,000 dps to kill it before it can self destruct. A decent battleship with excellent skills can get almost 1000 dps.
These stats are heavily rounded. If there's anyone with more refined data, please correct me.
I hope that long winded post and the other replies above help answer your questions.
Last edited by Yashir Wong; February 7 2012 at 10:11:09 AM.
Thanks, I believe we had about 20 ECM, 2 small lasers, a web, and a disruptor active at the time (we had some other stuff anchored but we never turned anything else on). We had hardeners but it didn't really come into play in the fight. I wasn't the primary, they mainly focused on the scorpion navy and the chimera. From what the other 2 pilots were saying it was keeping about 1/3 of them shut out judging off the locks (I remember a few of the KMs were sporting ECCM). The carrier pilot was pulling double duty in also playing as the POS gunner to assign 3 amarr ECM to the 3 guardians on the field (and reassign as they warped on and off grid) which actually allowed us to kill their other ships.You've got me a little curious. What POS defenses did you have? If it's your current set up, no need to divulge it here. A good POS set up is worth so so much. Even more so if you have gunners. In any event, I hope you gave your Chimera pilot the absolute highest of fives. Triage is a wonderful thing.
Even if that Bhaalgorn showed up, your Chimera might have been able to rep through.
Lastly, Drakes and Guardians
That was a good watch, excellent job!
We ended up cannibalizing their staging POS and adding the ECM they deployed to our own as well as doing a general refit of ours after the whole thing was over to discourage further assaults.
And yeah... it wasn't the best of fleets they were throwing at us. I think they felt that we'd just roll over if they brought plenty of bodies instead of going about it with a decent plan in mind. No complaints from me though!
Last edited by xanral; February 7 2012 at 02:58:03 PM.
I wonder how many friends they tried to phone up to bring you down. At least you got a decent test of your defense as well as some excellent experience for your Chimera pilot. It's almost like playing 2 games of whack-a-mole at once. One side's whacking out red bars, and the other's bopping Guardians on the head. From the video it's clear that you guys kept your cool, chose your targets wisely and calmly knocked them down, one by one.
One last thing, I would hate sieging that tower, ecm is always a good choice.
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