Starcraft 2 PLAAGUUUUUU

[RoemySchneider]

Very disappointed with Dreamhack. Normally enjoy watching Brotoss heroes ripping it up, but watching hour after hour of 2-base all-ins made me want to claw my eyes out.

toss has always been boring vOv... it started with the lame 'deathball&go' (even off one base), then people discovered 4gate all day every day, then naniwa slowed everything down to a halt with his forgefastexpand, etcetc - and every diamond&higher player does the very same for months.

they also have to be hit with a patch club to get them to notice other ideas; the warp prism had to get more HP before it was used for harassment which hadnt been even attempted after the insta-storm nerf (white-ra's speshul tactics dont count -.-)

i miss the beta days where people tried more-or-less stupid shit like dropping 4 immortals to snipe buildings or a single colossus drop to harass some workers with that still-ridiculous normal splash dmg
alas, it all went downhill when forcefields stopped everything in its tracks, and now that spell pmuch defines your place/rank in the ladder -.-

[hXc]

I heard that 4gate is dead
also zerg is even more boring right - 12 minutes max roach all in stephano style every game becomes boooring (I don't follow terran that much and I'm silver so no real "builds" here)
and I've found MaNa's 2 base all ins vs Stephano quite interesting, not mentioning last game vs Hero which was just epic

apart from the finals it was all in all a quite good tournament imo


zerg imba

[Beardponderer]

[Lexa Hellfury]

the warp prism had to get more HP before it was used for harassment

Um, yeah, before the boost they got 3-shot by queens, they were pretty much useless pre-buff.

[Vortex]

Very disappointed with Dreamhack. Normally enjoy watching Brotoss heroes ripping it up, but watching hour after hour of 2-base all-ins made me want to claw my eyes out.

toss has always been boring vOv... it started with the lame 'deathball&go' (even off one base), then people discovered 4gate all day every day, then naniwa slowed everything down to a halt with his forgefastexpand, etcetc - and every diamond&higher player does the very same for months.

they also have to be hit with a patch club to get them to notice other ideas; the warp prism had to get more HP before it was used for harassment which hadnt been even attempted after the insta-storm nerf (white-ra's speshul tactics dont count -.-)

i miss the beta days where people tried more-or-less stupid shit like dropping 4 immortals to snipe buildings or a single colossus drop to harass some workers with that still-ridiculous normal splash dmg
alas, it all went downhill when forcefields stopped everything in its tracks, and now that spell pmuch defines your place/rank in the ladder -.-

People tried warp prism harass all the time before it was buffed. The base HP it had with was just too low - without perfect micro, any form of AA would instantly destroy the damn thing, taking any units alongside it. Even if was empty, the time usage of the robotics bay is a *huge* deal given how important every unit it produces is to literally every matchup. So yea, if you're name wasn't Whitera with obscenely good micro, you didn't take the bet that you could keep it alive. You went with a more conventional, less risky strategy that didn't pin all your hopes on a unit with paper-thin HP.

Dropping 4 immortals? What? Back in beta you cold try 2x immortal drops, but they got hit with a significant build time nerf (+15s) which effectively ended that strategy. At 250/100 each, and 200/0 for the prism, even a 2x immortal drop consumes 700/200 to build, and takes 160s! To drop four immortals would take an absurd 320s to build unless you have two robotics facilities. And while you try to build all that, your opponent will see that you're weak and just kill you with a timing push anyways. Even whitera doesn't really drop immortals, as a colossus takes 200min and 35s less to build than 2x immortals, and zealots do even more dps while costing only minerals and a warpin cooldown. Immortal drops haven't been viable sense early beta, and they won't ever be coming back.

[Lexa Hellfury]

You see some immortal drops in PvZ, mostly on maps where you have an easily defendable ramp and short flight distance to/from the enemy base (Shakuras immediately comes to mind). In PvP you see immortal drops all the time, but only when the location of the enemy army is known. This is due to the speed of the Protoss army. If you see your enemy move out, you have about 6 years to pull your immortals back for defense. I dont think I've ever seen an Immortal drop PvT.

[Vortex]

You see some immortal drops in PvZ, mostly on maps where you have an easily defendable ramp and short flight distance to/from the enemy base (Shakuras immediately comes to mind). In PvP you see immortal drops all the time, but only when the location of the enemy army is known. This is due to the speed of the Protoss army. If you see your enemy move out, you have about 6 years to pull your immortals back for defense. I dont think I've ever seen an Immortal drop PvT.

Yea you see them every once in a while on specific maps in specific matchups. My post never said you don't see any immortal drops, just that their changes way back in beta effectively ended a 2 immortal drop play as a standard option in the 'toss arsenal. In each of the matchups you listed though, there is a huge amount of risk present in the immortal drop. PvZ, immortals have to do work or you just flatout lose. Z can expand three billion times while you're dinking around with your two immortals, and ling/roach will crush any fledgling protoss army that tries to come out (or just backstab). Immortals aren't particularly effective vs. queens (which have quite decent AA), suck so bad vs. lings, and suck hard vs. roaches without forcefield support. In other words, they MUST snipe drones and/or tech structures, or the zerg will just double expand and take a commanding league, if not kill you with an easy timing attack.

PvP is weird, but immortal dropping is huuuugely risky there due to blink stalkers. One wrong mismicro on the warp prism, and you probably just lost the game. A single prism + zealots is a safer harassment option, and can decimate mineral lines on the cheap with an easy backstab during the main fight. Later on warp prisms can breathe life back into the immortal by dropping them directly onto colossus in the ball v ball battle, which is good because you built the immortals to stay safe vs. blink stalker play anyways (note: you did not try to drop them originally, you just build them to be normal).

Either way, none of this has to deal with the supposed idea that protoss just don't experiment with their kit, and that's entirely what I was addressing. You can find a quirky or edge-case use for every unit in the game, even at pro-levels (mothership rushing, for example. Hardly normal play, but it can and does happen even at pr0 level), but that doesn't make it normal, solid gameplay. Immortal drops are very expensive and extremely risky, and that's why you just don't see them all that often. Prior to the warp prism HP buff, any WP play at all was extremely risky due to their stupidly low HP. Even god-tier players like Whitera had trouble using them effectively back then. Given the multitude of safe, strong options that did not involve dropping, well... its not exactly surprising that it was an unpopular strategy.

[Sirrush]

http://www.teamliquidpro.com/liquidrising/


FUCK.

YES.

[lt]

Watching!

:TpTlk:

[Lexa Hellfury]

Holy fuck PvZ is such horseshit atm

[Lexa Hellfury]

Holy fuck PvZ is such horseshit atm

[Takon Orlani]

So i cant find my disc, and bnet says i dont have an account.

Welp.

[Torashuu]

After watching the teamLiquid documentary I have to say that they don't come off as a top team. They seem too focused on the nice and not enough on the pro. I know of no sport where professionals get better by being nice and cuddly to them.

I know this makes me come off as an internet hardman and is even worse because I suck at SC2. It just seems that esp the CEO/COO have alot to learn on managing a sports team at professional level. It just seems EG's management is a bit more professional.

Like half the introductions going "He'd be the best/top3 of the world if not for <personal issues>" gets kinda old fast. It was a nice inside peek though and appreciate the effort they put in. Making e-sports bigger is a hard job.

[Lexa Hellfury]

It just seems that esp the CEO/COO have alot to learn on managing a sports team at professional level.

Idk, it seems to me like TL are doing quite well for themselves.

[lt]

I didn't get that impression at all. (I also liked that EG donated 666 $).

:TpTlk:

[Torashuu]

Then it's probably me.

[donjehova]

I was underwhelmed by the docu to say the least. 1 hour of pretty standard interviews, which was all very similar and pretty boring. Didn't get any insight into the lives of the tl players or the team as such. No story arc at all either. I really hope the other documentary's in the making a done like proper movies, and not just a shallow circle jerk by players.

[hXc]

I was underwhelmed by the docu to say the least. 1 hour of pretty standard interviews, which was all very similar and pretty boring. Didn't get any insight into the lives of the tl players or the team as such. No story arc at all either. I really hope the other documentary's in the making a done like proper movies, and not just a shallow circle jerk by players.

does it get better at all after the first hour?
i stopped watching it after hero's interview, I got bored of everyone repeating "he's so nice" every second sentence

[Lexa Hellfury]

Typical PvZ:

1. Get fast robo and pump out 4-5 immortals with 7-8 sentries and a mix of stalkers and zealots
2. Oppnent attacks with roaches.
3. Throw down pefect forcefields, and hold
4. 45 seconds later, opponent attacks with roaches
5. Throw down perfect forcefields, and hold
6. 45 seconds later, opponent attacks with roaches
7. Throw down perfect forcefields, and hold
8. 45 seconds later, oppnent attacks with roaches
9. Miss 1-2 forcefields
10. Lose game instantly
11. Watch replay, see opponent expanded twice while attacking repeatedly

[donjehova]

I was underwhelmed by the docu to say the least. 1 hour of pretty standard interviews, which was all very similar and pretty boring. Didn't get any insight into the lives of the tl players or the team as such. No story arc at all either. I really hope the other documentary's in the making a done like proper movies, and not just a shallow circle jerk by players.

does it get better at all after the first hour?
i stopped watching it after hero's interview, I got bored of everyone repeating "he's so nice" every second sentence

Well, they sort of try to turn into a direction of EG vs. TL. It just doesn't work at since, since there really is no emotional rivalry between the teams. They are still in the phase of "we are just happy to have someone good to compete against" which does not produce interesting content.