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Thread: [TMA] RR carrierfleet shenanigans

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    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Smile [TMA] RR carrierfleet shenanigans

    AKA Ganked 100 Megathread (but I can't rename it without breaking people's links to it)

    Outstanding questions from thread progression:


    • Is anyone able to build/source Capital Egress Port Maximizer Is for this? My dedicated cap-source Chim fit posted below really benefits from them.

    • Would every carrier/capital in fleet on grid need to set that fleet fitting service thing before anyone can refit, or only all those in range of the person trying to refit, or does it only need 1 now?

    • Is there any lowsec site (DED complex?) that pulls all warp attempts to 0km, like a nullsec bubble?


    ----------

    Ship Fittings start here on page 2.

    Also they can be found on Fleet-Up.com, RvB Ganked group.

    RvB forums thread.


    ----------


    OP:
    So say there's going to be a bunch of suicidal noob cap ships in a lowsec near you in a few months time(no I'm not talking TEST), what would be the basics of getting their best bang/buck?

    I've figured the following as a starting point:
      Spoiler:
    • Lowsec means no-one's getting Doomsday'd.
    • Shield-tanked, because then we'd have a chance to save supporting subcaps, because it slices a few vital seconds off of successfully cycling reps.
    • No triage. ~10 RR carriers with 3 RR each seems equal to a cheap shield triage carrier's local tank. If we'll have >10, this pays off always?
    • Carriers to be fitted 3:2 RR to ET modules, meta0. While each of the Thanny, Nid and Chimmy seem to be able to be stable with 4-1 fits, they're only just, and 3-2 gives much more room for some neuting pressure, and people changing fits as ...fun... happens. Plus to service subcap cap requests. Also it seems the only sensible way to cap everyone back up quickly if we arrive via cyno, and why the fuck wouldn't we take the opportunity to do so?
    • All rigs to be t1 CCCs. Bonus points for having got a carrier with cheaper large rigs from before the change. 2xT2 CCC would be a bonus, but things like semi-conductor ones, or RRAs should we be armour-tanked, would only be worse/useless, right?
    • Assuming people don't have Carrier 5 or capital module skills to 4(per/wil 4 lyfe).
    • All lows to be DC2 + as many meta4 CPRs as will fit.
    • All mids to be Invuln, EM ward, sebo (scripted for scan res), projected ECCM, then as many T2 cap rechargers as will fit.
    • We do a logi-channel style spread of 1-up, 1-down for cap trans, 1-down for PECCM.
    • Everyone to carry spare active shield hardeners of all types, plus 2 invulns. If someone gets shot, they swap out sebo and then CRs to put in thermal, kin, etc & heat them. If they cook them they can swap fresh ones on, right?
    • Mindflood is perfect for this, no downsides as they'd only be for local reps, right?
    • Fighters are highly debatable as being worthwhile? Sentries, heavies and several flights of smaller stuff including ewar drones would be the best way to react to hostiles that no doubt will be srs bsns about bagging our suicidal killmails asap.

    Now, with this initial look-over, it seems the Nid's potentially the best for this, second being the Chimmy? I say this based on the fact the Nid seems to have better cap and scan res, plus the rep amount bonus. The capitals are going to die, but at least we'd like a chance to save some subcaps before things get silly, and we'll have less dependance on people's cap-management.

    This is where people with practical experience can explain if/why the chim's extra 2 mids & resists will actually change the whole thing around, due to something like the combo of hardeners they can swap on vs say Moros dps, or the need for bonused ET range after an average jump-in/unlucky bounce..? Or if armour is worth doing, and/or if we'll realistically be able to rep any BCs with this 100-130 scanres. Or indeed if a few ECM/damp ships will ruin our fun.

    Also, feel free to explain a better combo of maybe sig-amps(dat 24% CPR regen though), a practical way to use RSBs from the get-go and not just a PECCM chain, or the likelyhood of needing everyone to have auto-targetters/smartbombs/neuts/something else to hand(I'm sure some will have some of these available, and a cyno or 2). No I don't expect we'll bring racks of warp core stabs.

    The only major thing I can think of is if people should bring a 4th RR module, or a shield booster to refit on and burn cap in an unstable manner, and that's maybe a bit too try-harding for our silly outing. Of course someone's going to die before they even get to the rest of the fleet, bounced off of a known pirate station or something.

    I think the actual event's being billed as a capital-ships things, so we'll have dreads too, but I assume they're useless outside of being fitted for Siege, so they might as well be shield-fit and we'll try save them inbetween them trying to blap things/brawl overwhelming hostile cap numbers.

    I expect the most likely way we die is to BL dreads, or PL supers. The only counter we can offer is we'll tell everyone where & when this is ahead of time so as to get all the pirates & other notable mobile parties equally prepared, maybe we'll open lines of communication to their FCs so we can team up for some silly killmails, and we'll try get everyone to bring plenty of HICs to deter/bag supers. The node will be reinforced, the day & time almost certainly a Saturday EU evening.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; September 25 2013 at 11:23:59 AM.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  2. #2
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Actually, geddons. Geddons = death. Does any nullsec lot have a geddons doctrine (not that they'd cost a lot to obtain for this)? Or those welp-pests with 2xh neuts? I'm remembering Eve-Uni have their Dragon-slayer anti-capitals ball of death too(guess we need to have words). Would everyone having a 3rd ET be the best use of the limited storage space, or would such a spider still break to comparable numbers of neut BSs?
    Seems I need info/experience as to which combos of spare capital modules is possible/best to carry on each ship. I assume all subcap modules are trivial to store.

    Will we have some ball-ache with having to ensure everyone in fleet sets refitting services before anyone can do any refitting? Or did CCP improve that?

    Similarly because of no-fun-neuts-death, all dreads should be ideally be Nags I guess, because then we don't have to hear Lord's explain why they're the best
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; September 6 2013 at 04:20:16 PM.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

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    Experts are calling this a shitosaural field
    Failheap is bridiging through a LORDSERVANT
    There no escaping this now

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    Chimera slowcats repping a Rokh fleet sounds baller.

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    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    all dreads should be ideally be Nags I guess, because then we don't have to hear Lord's explain why they're the best
    You're learning.

    Run rattlesnakes/scorp navies as subcap doctrine. Both have loltastic tank + nice dps/utility. You could have all scorp navies run energy xfers in their utility slot for an extra anti-neuting power, or have them run neuts to offensive neut bhaalgorns/geddons.

    I am a Lamborghini tractor.

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    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    It's a welp fleet, we wouldn't expect any uniformity or notable value to the subcaps. I wouldn't even expect it from the capships, thus not pursuing any ratio of pure ET+PECCM chims to ST+sebo nids. At least the carriers are likely to be bought nearer the time, and only take ~a week to crosstrain to lvl4.

    Rokhs sounds good as a suggestion though(along with cruise ravens?), to reach out from under our RR umbrella, though I was wondering if there was some shield comp that could force/tempt people to come brawl us rather than pick us/our support apart from range. Damps being a midslot module though. Could we cyno to 0 on a FW plex/one of those things where everyone's warpins are forced to 0km? Or cyno in elsewhere and warp to one asap?
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; September 2 2013 at 08:26:10 AM.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

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    Just an FYI no lighting cynod in/around/on grid of a fw plex. It is deadspace.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

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    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Ok, so could we cyno in to a station/safespot and then warp the cap ships to the plex gate, along with all the support fleet?
    If so, if the plex is done/finished/whatever happens in there, would we retain our deadspace grid outside where everyone's pulled to 0km on us & no direct cynos allowed?

    Supers can still assign fighterbombers that can warp offgrid, even if they don't dare come on grid themselves, right?
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; September 2 2013 at 11:30:14 AM.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

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    Donor Mangala Solaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Ok, so could we cyno in to a station/safespot and then warp the cap ships to the plex gate, along with all the support fleet?
    If so, if the plex is done/finished/whatever happens in there, would we retain our deadspace grid outside where everyone's pulled to 0km on us & no direct cynos allowed?

    Supers can still assign fighterbombers that can warp offgrid, even if they don't dare come on grid themselves, right?
    Good idea on the plex there, especially if we can warp to it etc. Makes for a more interesting scenario.

    Also I can be in any carrier on well fit on the day on mangala and my alt, so let me know if we decide a pref (im leaning to chimera after reading the thread ofc, especially based on reps etc)

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    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    I kinda want to push for the ET Chims + ST Nids, it seems twice as likely to save people (because RSBd scanres Nids) and puts most of the capacitor generation onto the tankier Chims.
    But you need 2 Chims:3 Nids. Thanatos are crap/inferior to Nids (except lol fighters dps).

    Assuming carrier 4, capital emissions skill to only 3, the following just fits using Genolutions CA-1 & 2 (edit: it did pre 1.1. See page 4) and forms a stable setup in pairs, feeding & boosting 3 Nids between them.

    Chimera, shield pantheon pure cap trans
      Spoiler:
    [Chimera, shield pantheon pure cap trans]

    Damage Control II
    Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
    Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
    True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

    EM Ward Field II
    Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
    Remote Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
    Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
    Remote Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
    Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

    Capital Energy Transfer Array I
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I
    Capital Energy Transfer Array I

    Capital Egress Port Maximizer I
    Capital Egress Port Maximizer I
    Capital Egress Port Maximizer I


    2 cap trans, 1 PECCM on paired Chim, 2 cap trans 1 RSB 1 PECCM on one Nid, 1 cap trans 1 RSB 1 PECCM on the shared Nid(he gets more scan res & sensor strength). Maybe the Chims should double PECCM each other?

    It seems they can refit to full T2 active hardeners in the mids without having to offline any highs(unlike a pure ST Nid), and the setup still seems basically just as stable because the cap's coming from the ETs rather than regen.

    Again the big problem being you need them rigged like this(if indeed these rigs are available & work as described), so you can't just ask for everyone to try bring Chims, and then easily refit some to 3xST & CCCs. Plus the Nids rep ~30% more per rep thanks to their bonus.


    So unless there's a better/easier Chim battery fit/setup(one that accounts for crap skills and only CCCs), I think the fit plan in the OP would work best/easiest.


    Another thought, would it be sensible to use RSBs when I'd said SBs, but put them only onto half the Nids, stacking them up so as to try get some reps on smaller targets quicker, and the rest of the reps arrive several seconds later but being better than all being just too slow to give any reps because everyone has meh scan res? The tradeoff looks to be the longer basic lock time between the carriers to set up the initial ET, PECCM & RSB chains.

    Or should we just look to have T2 logi cruisers around to get some hero reps in? The concern then is the lock target count limit of the carriers, and them being unable to save the tiny-sigd Basis/Scimis if hostiles switch primaries at any real pace.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; September 25 2013 at 09:40:56 AM.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  11. #11
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    This FW plex beacon idea... we could potentially even drift/bump the carriers ~35km sunwards out of immediate neut & blaster moros range(if we have battery chims, they can go even further). All the while repping our support camping the warp-in & having them screen tackle stuff trying to get to us. They can also go full web & scram tackle fits, and our sentries will work well either from the initial set dropped on landing, or subsequent flights dropped down the line towards us. Right?

    Can smartbombs be lit if they'd hit the plex gate/beacon?

    The biggest problem seems to be in getting everyone's carriers near enough to the party system beforehand, then where/how to cyno in. We could maybe use 1 safe as the cyno in, with someone at another/have a chosen FW plex that capitals then immediately warp to. The subcaps sit at the cyno grid to jam/damp/kill anyone getting there fast enough to tackle the caps. Then there's just the spies in fleet that might try tackle/drop fleet & be a cyno for others...
    I guess we could come in with some stabs fitted, we'd be low cap after that & warping to the plex, but still viable to then refit to CPRs right after the cap chain's sorted? At least, align to warp and start to refit if we aren't immediately threatened once at speed.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; September 2 2013 at 02:36:03 PM.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  12. #12
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    This FW plex beacon idea... we could potentially even drift/bump the carriers ~35km sunwards out of immediate neut & blaster moros range(if we have battery chims, they can go even further). All the while repping our support camping the warp-in & having them screen tackle stuff trying to get to us. They can also go full web & scram tackle fits, and our sentries will work well either from the initial set dropped on landing, or subsequent flights dropped down the line towards us. Right?

    Can smartbombs be lit if they'd hit the plex gate/beacon?

    The biggest problem seems to be in getting everyone's carriers near enough to the party system beforehand, then where/how to cyno in. We could maybe use 1 safe as the cyno in, with someone at another/have a chosen FW plex that capitals then immediately warp to. The subcaps sit at the cyno grid to jam/damp/kill anyone getting there fast enough to tackle the caps. Then there's just the spies in fleet that might try tackle/drop fleet & be a cyno for others...
    I guess we could come in with some stabs fitted, we'd be low cap after that & warping to the plex, but still viable to then refit to CPRs right after the cap chain's sorted? At least, align to warp and start to refit if we aren't immediately threatened once at speed.
    Cyno on station, dock up, undock, warp.

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    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Fear of bouncing with 10-30 cynoing in. I haven't flown a cap before, I expect some other might be in similar shoes. Legit concern?
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Fear of bouncing with 10-30 cynoing in. I haven't flown a cap before, I expect some other might be in similar shoes. Legit concern?
    Not really, no. Just position your cyno correctly(5km off station via the tactical overlay, should be still 0km by overview from station) Even if you do bump, you won't go that fast, and it's only 10 seconds to dock. Once you start talking about cynoing in titans, or 50+ caps you see a bounce, but I doubt you'd see much from the numbers you're talking about. If you're really worried, you could just come in piecemail and dock up, say 5 or so at a time. Jump 5 in, dock up, jump 5 more, dock up.

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    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    If we all undock at once and try warp to the same beacon, won't we then start physics trying to bounce us out of eachother, & out of alignment?
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

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    You can warp to any size plex, larges you can go 'in' (there is no accel gate, but iirc it is still deadspace which means no on grid warps / cynos / etc), you just cannot activate a gate. I'm not sure how fighter assigns work with fw plexs, but I would guess they can help on the outside, but not the inside of a plex.

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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    If we all undock at once and try warp to the same beacon, won't we then start physics trying to bounce us out of eachother, & out of alignment?
    Nope. Physics doesn't kick in for 60 seconds unless you agress.

  18. #18
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    If we all undock at once and try warp to the same beacon, won't we then start physics trying to bounce us out of eachother, & out of alignment?
    Nope. Physics doesn't kick in for 60 seconds unless you agress.
    This. Back in raiden when we cyno'd in 50 titans + support, it was a mad dash to get everyone spread out, and there was always "that guy" (usually flying the drake of titans...erebus) who'd bump at 60 causing a massive chain reaction of lolz.

    Fighterbombers cannot be assigned - they can be told to engage a target and will follow it through warp, but you cannot assign fighterbombers like regular fighters.

    I am a Lamborghini tractor.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post

    Nope. Physics doesn't kick in for 60 seconds unless you agress.
    Nope nope nope.

  20. #20
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Excellent, seems we are pretty much removing supers as a threat if we do this plex thing then? Death by a thousand rifters, here we come
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

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