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Thread: Bitcoin

  1. #2201
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    STORJ

    Iím a huge cryptocurrency / block-fad distractor but there are some cases where itís a useful tool. Of course I do believe any real implementations will be private and trust controlled. And proof of brute force work will be phased out.

    Itís a tool that has specific uses. The gold rush right now is about trying to use it for every problem. Obviously that will crash and burn.


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  2. #2202
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    HOW ONE CRYPTOCURRENCY STARTUP IS HELPING LIFT PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY IN EAST AFRICA

    CRYPTO MAY HOLD THE KEY TO SOLVING WORLD HUNGER

    MILLENNIALS ARE KILLING FIAT CURRENCY: THE DANGERS OF CRYPTO

    CRYPTO AND YOU: SHOPPING FOR GROCERIES WITH A CRYPTO WALLET IN 2018

  3. #2203
    Frug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    An alternative point of view on Bitcoin & crypto-et al currencies, click through it's a thread

    The fuck?
    Sounds like some dumbass hippy who is butthurt they spent all that money on avo toast and canít afford bitcoin.
    I stop reading when I notice someone thinks twitter is the tool with which to make a blog post.

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    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  4. #2204
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    And that's assuming you solve the problems around transaction throughput and network availability. Which you won't.
    Quantum computers around the corner? :3
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  5. #2205
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    And that's assuming you solve the problems around transaction throughput and network availability. Which you won't.
    Quantum computers around the corner? :3
    Not really relevant to the problem. The lack of throughput is a problem that could be solved classically.


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  6. #2206
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    And that's assuming you solve the problems around transaction throughput and network availability. Which you won't.
    Quantum computers around the corner? :3
    Quantum computing chips aren't really designed to solve these kinds of problems. Their problems are more like "analyze every surface of this mountain range simultaneously and tell me the highest peak and lowest valley" or "find the most likely result of this economic situation".

    Might they be used in the future to do cryptographic analysis? Probably, but I haven't seen that yet.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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    WTF I hate white people now...

  7. #2207
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    It appears that all of Sydney's handful of Bitcoin atms are either out of cash or had their programming changed to only accept cash in but not pay any out.

  8. #2208
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Crikey
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  9. #2209
    SAI Peregrinus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quantum computing chips aren't really designed to solve these kinds of problems. Their problems are more like "analyze every surface of this mountain range simultaneously and tell me the highest peak and lowest valley" or "find the most likely result of this economic situation".

    Might they be used in the future to do cryptographic analysis? Probably, but I haven't seen that yet.
    Just FYI, that's a gross misunderstanding of how quantum computers work. Try https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9812037.pdf or the other quantum computing primers on https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/ (right sidebar, scroll down a ways).

    They will be useful for certain cryptographic work: Shor's algorithm dramatically improves the performance of integer factorization and finding (elliptic curve) discrete logarithms. Grover's algorithm improves the performance for breaking symmetric algorithms like block ciphers and hash functions (EG the double SHA256 used in Bitcoin, though this is less direct[1]). Grover's algorithm effectively halves the number of bits of effective security, so a 256-bit cipher would be as effective as a 128-bit cipher is today. Hash functions require more bits for security than block cipher primitives, so Bitcoin will probably be breakable by quantum computers if they are actually possible.

    The "if they are actually possible" bit is important: they work at very small scales but the difficulty of building a general-purpose quantum computer* grows exponentially with the number of qbits needed. The connections decohere faster and faster as more qbits are added, such that beyond 10-15 qbits (the current record is 10) the system decoheres (can't be used for computation) so quickly that we can't measure it. Going to the fastest measurement systems possible (femtosecond lasers) would only add 1-2 more qbits, even if those measurement systems were appropriate for the task at hand (they aren't). Several hundred are needed for any practical attacks. I'd estimate we're at least 50 years away from a practical general purpose quantum computer, and that's likely to be the perpetual 50 years away of Fusion power.

    * D-wave's "quantum computer" is not general purpose. It only does simulated annealing, which isn't relevant to cryptography in any way.

    [1] Not directly for SHA256, but likely applicable: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/864.pdf

  10. #2210
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAI Peregrinus View Post
    They will be useful for certain cryptographic work
    You mean we'll finally know what the Zodiac was saying?


  11. #2211
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    It appears that all of Sydney's handful of Bitcoin atms are either out of cash or had their programming changed to only accept cash in but not pay any out.

  12. #2212

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAI Peregrinus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quantum computing chips aren't really designed to solve these kinds of problems. Their problems are more like "analyze every surface of this mountain range simultaneously and tell me the highest peak and lowest valley" or "find the most likely result of this economic situation".

    Might they be used in the future to do cryptographic analysis? Probably, but I haven't seen that yet.
    Just FYI, that's a gross misunderstanding of how quantum computers work. Try https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9812037.pdf or the other quantum computing primers on https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/ (right sidebar, scroll down a ways).

    They will be useful for certain cryptographic work: Shor's algorithm dramatically improves the performance of integer factorization and finding (elliptic curve) discrete logarithms. Grover's algorithm improves the performance for breaking symmetric algorithms like block ciphers and hash functions (EG the double SHA256 used in Bitcoin, though this is less direct[1]). Grover's algorithm effectively halves the number of bits of effective security, so a 256-bit cipher would be as effective as a 128-bit cipher is today. Hash functions require more bits for security than block cipher primitives, so Bitcoin will probably be breakable by quantum computers if they are actually possible.

    The "if they are actually possible" bit is important: they work at very small scales but the difficulty of building a general-purpose quantum computer* grows exponentially with the number of qbits needed. The connections decohere faster and faster as more qbits are added, such that beyond 10-15 qbits (the current record is 10) the system decoheres (can't be used for computation) so quickly that we can't measure it. Going to the fastest measurement systems possible (femtosecond lasers) would only add 1-2 more qbits, even if those measurement systems were appropriate for the task at hand (they aren't). Several hundred are needed for any practical attacks. I'd estimate we're at least 50 years away from a practical general purpose quantum computer, and that's likely to be the perpetual 50 years away of Fusion power.

    * D-wave's "quantum computer" is not general purpose. It only does simulated annealing, which isn't relevant to cryptography in any way.

    [1] Not directly for SHA256, but likely applicable: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/864.pdf
    So, should I only invest all my family's savings, or mortgage the house as well?

  13. #2213
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAI Peregrinus View Post
    * D-wave's "quantum computer" is not general purpose. It only does simulated annealing, which isn't relevant to cryptography in any way.
    This is the one quantum computer I am somewhat familiar with, as I work in the factory making their chips. They have 2000-qbit chips, btw.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  14. #2214
    SAI Peregrinus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SAI Peregrinus View Post
    * D-wave's "quantum computer" is not general purpose. It only does simulated annealing, which isn't relevant to cryptography in any way.
    This is the one quantum computer I am somewhat familiar with, as I work in the factory making their chips. They have 2000-qbit chips, btw.
    Yes, but those qbits aren't all entangled with one another. Sticking tons of SQUIDs or other qbit devices on a chip is easy. I wouldn't say that what D-wave has done is easy, but it's vastly, VASTLY easier than maintaining coherence with large numbers of entangled qbits. It's like the difference between learning to make fire and figuring out how to smelt steel.

  15. #2215
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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  16. #2216
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SAI Peregrinus View Post
    They will be useful for certain cryptographic work
    You mean we'll finally know what the Zodiac was saying?
    A different solution space as it were. Advances in what is being called deep learning provide a more likely pathway to solve problems like that, and so far that doesn't get any meaningful increase from quantum computing, over a general improvement from evolutionary new software architectures a broader shift to something like that would bring about.
    meh

  17. #2217
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    Not sure if anyone caught this gem already, apologies if I'm double posting / weirdly, my FHC no longer renders the box/content of twitter tag posts, just the text/raw link. I think I broke something.


    Last edited by Sparq; January 21 2018 at 03:00:14 PM.

  18. #2218
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    >10100 bux for a 8yo Taurus
    u kidding me m8

  19. #2219
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Lehman Brothers is now launching its own Crypto-currency platform.

    The end is truly fucking nigh.......

  20. #2220
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Lehman Brothers is now launching its own Crypto-currency platform.

    The end is truly fucking nigh.......
    lmao, ancap's wet dream is going to come true and completely crush their vision of utopia
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

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