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Thread: Is patriotism obsolete?

  1. #21
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    "Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw
    meh

  2. #22
    Procellus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

    In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

    -O
    What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

    On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.

  3. #23
    Ophichius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procellus View Post
    What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

    On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.
    Ironically, that's why so many Americans think patriotism is great and can't comprehend any other view of it. In US popular culture, WWII is really sort of our shining moment. We got to be the white knights for the whole world, and we did it by pulling together as Americans. Or so the narrative goes. (Ignoring or glossing over the thousands of Americans we locked up in internment camps for the high crime of having the wrong ancestors. And the institutional racism pervasive throughout the era. And the fact that we sat on our assess and let Europe get pounded to shit until the attack on Pearl Harbor.)

    -O
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those Thukkers, that way I wouldn't have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procellus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

    In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

    -O
    What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

    On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.
    The slaves were never gonna get to vote. Here's how it went down under the 3/5ths compromise: "Me and all 6 of my 10 slaves vote for William Harrison." So slave owners did want slaves to get a full vote.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procellus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

    In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

    -O
    What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

    On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.
    Strongly agree on negative results of nationalism and patriotism. The results can take a century to show themselves but the end result is an inability to deal with your international peers.

  6. #26
    Movember '12 Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012 Cassiuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    "Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw
    ^ This is what you call an end-game quote. Lock fred. Game over.

    +1
    I'm actually an '07.

  7. #27
    Donor Rudolf Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Procellus View Post
    What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

    On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.
    Ironically, that's why so many Americans think patriotism is great and can't comprehend any other view of it. In US popular culture, WWII is really sort of our shining moment. We got to be the white knights for the whole world, and we did it by pulling together as Americans. Or so the narrative goes. (Ignoring or glossing over the thousands of Americans we locked up in internment camps for the high crime of having the wrong ancestors. And the institutional racism pervasive throughout the era. And the fact that we sat on our assess and let Europe get pounded to shit until the attack on Pearl Harbor.)

    -O
    This. WWII is basically the hardening concrete in youth social studies classes in the US (at least it was when I was a kid) that enforced the America fuck yah patriotic attitude.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

  8. #28
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Important for what? Why should I care more about another person living 300 miles away in my country than someone I have far more in common with a mere 30 miles away over a border?

  9. #29

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    Goodness must come from the bureaucracy~ all hail the bureaucracy and its numerous rules The current web of red tape is derived from the first government whose powers has been granted by the almighty, whose original rules for complete governance ended barbarity and deprivation and ushered in the golden age of civilization, where the people are moral, the wars were just, the social relations harmonious, the wealth properly distributed and great works are created.

    However the reactionary terrorists, individualists, and jealous rival bureaucracies have successfully deprived us of this truly righteous heritage. They have undermined the people's belief in the one true bureaucracy and the function of the state is at a low point. What was once order is now chaos as harmful ideas spread and impedes the great goals and plans designed by the bureaucracy, which is the only light in the darkness of the world that gives us direction and shall lead us to the future! This all the while the brutal and evil healthcare and old age pension schemes imposed by the hostile foreign sources being the true cancer on this planet and must be exterminated for the greater good of the people and the state. Great harm is being inflicted by the dangerous foreign evils of value added tax, monetarists central bank policy, and singular chamber of elected representatives.

    We the sane, the brave, the wise and the just must stand united in the greater cause of powerful governance. A true man must stand behind the lobbyists, the 3rd court of appeals, the internal revenue service and we shall fight against the threat to our true institutions. We have the men, we have the money and we have the weapons. We shall fight them in expeditions. We shall fight them in the sea. We shall fight them on the beaches. We shall fight them in the fields and streets. We shall fight them on the hills! We shall fight them everywhere! We shall never surrender! Man, Serve Your Duties!

    There is no greater honor then dying for the nation! Defend the century old legal structure drafted by wealthy landowners that seized power in a self serving manner!
    Last edited by Shin_getter; July 22 2013 at 01:30:20 AM.

  10. #30
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Important for what? Why should I care more about another person living 300 miles away in my country than someone I have far more in common with a mere 30 miles away over a border?
    Its not a matter of care MORE. Its a matter of caring at all. I suppose you do a bit but most on this forum dont give a shit.
    I think hat patriotism is a decent thing as a group builder for a nation, but it can get out of hand fast and patriotism goes to elistism either racial or purely national which is retarded. I live in a country where it was frowned upon to call yourself dutch for allmost a decade (nineties) that backswinged into if you aint dutch you are against us. Both are equally retarded.
    Personally i am not that proud to be dutch as i dont think my country has done anything special in the time i am alive. The past is something different offcourse.
    I do however feel some pride in being a member of the EU on purely historical grounds (degrees in polisci and history so no surprises aye), that standpoint atm is like taking a dump in the halls of parliament. But whatever fads will be fads.

    The USA version of patriotism is imo a bit retarded if you focus on certain groups like the rednecks but also the art crew from the costal cities. The usa isnt all that in popular speak and its certainly not the end all.

    Then again the most fervent and racist nationalist people i ever met were chinese. Kingdom of the middle earth lol
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  11. #31
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    Patriotism is just another form of community identity and idealism. The soul of it is being proud of what the country should represent. Trying to equate patriotism with nationalism is a poorly thought out argument. Resistance groups throughout German and occupied territories during WWI and II both believed themselves to be patriots and were fighting for their ideal belief of what it represented. Patriotism isn't changed by nationalism. It's the other way around. Patriotism is when someone assists with the formation or sustainment of national goals and ideals. WWII gained more ground due to conditions in the country which let the National Socialist German Workers' Party flourish and push their version of patriotism. It took a concerted propaganda effort to make fighting in WWII a patriotic duty especially when the US stood to gain little from the European side than enough ground to bury it's dead while depleting its high yield hematite iron ore deposits within a decade and a half, and seeing no real return from payments of lend-lease since it was US govt. subsidized below the cost to make. Would there have been "if you're driving alone, you're driving with Hitler" posters made if Japan had not formally become part of the Axis? I honestly don't know.

    I've always found it odd that those who chide on patriotism are often the first to swell their chest when some new article describes their country in a positive light. Freedom index, NHS, better economy growth, military does something.

    Quote Originally Posted by shin_getter
    stuff
    Sir, that belongs in general chat. At least attempt to argue a point.
    Last edited by Keorythe; July 25 2013 at 03:57:49 AM.

  12. #32

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    Patriotism is ultimately a personal feeling, not a generalizable idea or ideal. Discussing whether there should be patriotism is like discussing whether people should like boobs. Its gonna happen anyways regardless of result.

    To have patriotism, one needs that particular group identity, the sense of pride and a specific set of moral instincts. People without them can not and will not feel patriotism no matter how much it is promoted, and none of the above is automatic nor necessary for healthy human functioning.

    --
    Some patriotism promoters think patriotism serves greater, other moral functions like reducing the harm inflicted on other people and likes. I will just say that is wrong, since people that hold those values directly will do the right thing without needing patriotism. You don't need patriotism to know a racist aggressive imperialist regime bent on violent expansion at immense cost of human suffering needs to be destroyed, for example.

    Some patriots wants to take account of the advantages of modern state as result of their type of feeling, however that is also wrong. My previous post talks about the actual operation of the state, and it is the smooth and efficient operation of the state that provides good results like order and economic growth. The fictive-kinship with other members is not required, as we can see from the success of immigrant, history-less countries like Canada or Singapore. Most patriots identify with a imaginary people but not the regime, when it is the latter the actually produce results.

    Patriotism is useful for the establishment of a strong centralized state in places that lack them, and centralized state is better for long run wealth and development due to economies of scale and reduction in lower scaled violence, so it is not naturally harmful or something. (in that sense, a humanist will support establishment of states, however a tribalist would not) In the context of interconnected developed world it does not seem to do anything particularly useful.

    --
    In terms of figuring out people, the state tag is useful, but not as useful as personality inventories, education attainment or socioeconomic/ethnoculture background, none of which is neatly divided by modern borders.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassiuss View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    "Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw
    ^ This is what you call an end-game quote. Lock fred. Game over.

    +1
    I like that quote, but no. Patriotism isn't about the current state of your country, it's about your belief in contributing to your country. Americans who believe the US is the best country in the world are stupid. Americans who believe we should strive to be the best country in the world are patriots. To me, patriotism is about holding your country to a higher standard because you care about it.

  14. #34
    Super Baderator DonorGlobal Moderator cullnean's Avatar
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    Is patriotism obsolete?

    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    Cullneshi the god of shitposting.

  15. #35
    Donor Rudolf Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    Is patriotism obsolete?

    Nope.
    Phone reppin. This distinction is lost on a great many.

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  16. #36
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Posting because it's relevant and I don't want this sub-forum to DIE.

    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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    WTF I hate white people now...

  17. #37
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    Yup, Will is a patriot IMO because he cares about the quality of the country as a whole, and not just himself. If you don't give a fuck about your peers or your community and just look out for yourself, you're not a patriot.

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