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Thread: 10GB upload space fyeah. Gitlab access - Desu!

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Please no bitterness
    It's not biterness, I am just expressing annoyance at your presumptiveness and "told you so" arrogance and also you pointing out things that are obvious. Also what blutreiter said about unity.


    My theories on what makes a good indy team are not perfect and need refining – what you saw above was my theory based on my experiences up until a few months ago. I am not arrogant enough to think I know it all, so wanted to refine it.

    I apologise if it came across otherwise.

  2. #22
    Donor Blutreiter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Ahhh, the dynamic lighting.

    I would have rolled with that in Unity and used a manually created range culling server-side to limit entity creation for players. If the project was succeeding, I would have then gone for a fundraiser to try to get the pro version and overlap some dynamic lighting on top of the culling system.

    With your game environment it would have been (relatively) easy to dynamically break it down into zones, with entities subscribing to each (room/corridor) zone as they leave/enter.

    Subscription changes could be checked for every 1 or 2 seconds (rather than every frame) to limit processing overhead.

    After this you perform a direct range check (limited by zone subscription adjacency – you only check range culling for a player against entities in their zone and adjacent zones).

    After that you further break it down with LOS checks on anything that passes the distance check.

    Effectively three tiers of culling, with each successive step working on a smaller set of items so that it can be more accurate without being too computationally expensive when entity numbers increase.

    Only the stuff that passes these three levels of culling on the server gets sent to the clients.

    Then you overlay dynamic lighting on the client to make this culling look good. It's one of the last things you worry about.

    Yes. I know. 20:20 hindsight and all that. It's easy to come in after the fact, but difficult to apply while doing, especially if doing while learning.
    Yes, I understand that you prefer Unity because you have experience with it. For us, that would have been a leap of faith. A 1500$ leap of faith. No matter how you try to rationalize this, for an untested development team, that is not going to happen - especially since we had no experience with Unity.

    Other engines are very viable and all have upsides and downsides. Unity is simply not budget friendly.

    If we had a coder with decent knowledge about Unity, I would have considered trying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Lyrus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    There's no fucking way I'm googling '12" Hero'

  3. #23

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    Yes. I know. Hence my comment about 20/20 hindsight.

    Fuck me……I wish I hadn't said anything.

    Either the bitterness is over 9000, or I have come down with a case of foot in mouth.

    I'll keep my analysis to myself. I'm sorry if I upset anyone.It was not my intent. I have been in the exact same place as you chaps, multiple times.

    I have failed more than you
    Last edited by Nicholai Pestot; June 18 2013 at 10:25:26 AM.

  4. #24
    Donor Blutreiter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Yes. I know. Hence my comment about 20/20 hindsight.

    Fuck me……I wish I hadn't said anything.

    Either the bitterness is over 9000, or I have come down with a case of foot in mouth.
    No, your initial assumptions were correct. The problem was that no deadlines were set and even if we would have kicked people off, we would not have had quick replacements.

    Classical case of "let a carpenter work with his own tools" - a coder inevitably does his best in a development environment he knows. UDK was Darkflares domain, Allegro for Helgur. UDK is an awesome engine, but not very intuitive to do the first step, so we relied on DFs groundwork. Helgur had a gameclient example up in Allegro, much like what you provided in the other thread, but we decided to deviate from Allegro (this is where the hindsight kicks in).

    2 wrong decisions:

    1. Helgur was definetely the dedicated coder in the team. He agreed to move to an engine he had no experience with because we basically persuaded him. Since the code is the most important aspect of the game, Helgur should have been supported instead, no matter if Allegro isn't as shiny.

    2. No deadlines.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Lyrus
    they send you a pedometer, and set you daily activity targets
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    There's no fucking way I'm googling '12" Hero'

  5. #25
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Yes. I know. Hence my comment about 20/20 hindsight.

    Fuck me……I wish I hadn't said anything.

    Either the bitterness is over 9000, or I have come down with a case of foot in mouth.

    I'll keep my analysis to myself. I'm sorry if I upset anyone.It was not my intent. I have been in the exact same place as you chaps, multiple times.

    I have failed more than you
    You haven't upset anyone, but the difference between genuine interest in what went wrong and a bit of schadenfreude can be muddy sometimes, especially here. I mistook your posting as the latter I am afraid, sorry about that (you could have worded your post a bit different in my opinion, in that regard).

  6. #26

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    Yeah, I probably could have worded it better. Given that that is cleared up and given Blue's good analysis of what went wrong, what are your thoughts Helgur?

  7. #27
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Well, after we decided to move to UDK I halted development on my end as I mentioned I had no experience with UDK. I also told Jalif when he wanted to move to unity back when he was in charge, that I would like to see a definite decision of what SDK we would use, so I wouldn't waste hours on end coding in something that would risked being scrapped anyways. I got to admit that I lost a bit of confidence in the project after that, but since people where so positive I decided to just go along with it and see where it went.

    But to take some self criticism I probably could have been a lot more concrete and affirm my opinions when I felt the project swaying out on thin ice. I should have grabbed the ball a lot sooner in that regard.

    Lay out the specs of the game, do the research of what is needed, and when you have landed on the tools and you know you got what it takes to finish the job stick with it. If you want to add functionality/features to the game, that can be taken care for version 1.5 or a sequel. Otherwise you will never get anything done. It was just too much back and forth.

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