'The future possibilities of space-travel, which are now left mainly to unfounded fantasy, could be more soberly treated without ceasing to be interesting and could show to even the most adventurous of the young that a world without war need not be a world without adventurous and hazardous glory. To this kind of contest there is no limit. Each victory is only a prelude to another, and no boundaries can be set to rational hope."
-Bertrand Russell (1872–1970)
Thx for the files, let the EFTwarrioring begin
Oh well, more files to provide already
Rebalanced HACs, Medium weapons rework
OP updated with files containing HAC and medium turret changes.
A quick overview of my thoughts: (I really should make a blog)
God, this is a sexy ship now. (Sadly, not sexy enough to dethrone Legions though.)
The five medium drones provide either extra DPS OR some ECM, the extra grid makes it a lot easier to do HAM fits with a plate, and it's a hair more mobile. And it retains its option high. The capacitor, which was already ridiculously good, is now even better. I'd almost say that this is the new Deimos.
The HML bonus is a cute idea, but it's ultimately not useful -- the total DPS for an HML fit with 3x BCS goes up from 250dps to 300dps. This isn't enough to matter at either small gang or fleet sizes. HAMs or GTFO.
Unfortunately, as good as the Sacri's tank is, it's still not good enough for fleet work. The HAM Legion will still probably dominate fleets -- in large gang for its tank, and in small gang for its massive neut bonus (i.e. Rote's Heropig comp).
Not much has changed. It's still cheap and decent en masse for small-to-medium gang. Large fleets will still prefer the Legion due to its superior tank. Soloers will continue to skip on it due to its lack of drones, lack of option high, and only three mids.
About the only thing of note is that the Shield Beam Zealot does a little more alpha now -- however, it's actually worse at blapping frigs due to the tracking nerf. (And as far as I know, that was the only role that this fit was currently serving.)
It's interesting, but the changes are ultimately ineffectual. No reason to use it over a Tengu, save for cost.
The extra launcher gives it some real DPS (with CN ammo: 425 @ 140km with HMLs, 590 @ 45km with HAMs) -- about the same as a five-launcher Tengu. The addition of three light drones is nice, I suppose. However, the tank is still thin as hell -- 40k EHP for a single-LSE MWD kiting fit, 50k EHP for a double-LSE AB doctrine fit. The capacitor is still an issue too; an MWD kiting fit can only burn around for about one minute nonstop. Soloers might get a kick out of it, but I suspect that small fleets will continue to prefer skirmish-range turret ships, and large fleets will continue to prefer the Tengu for its additional tank and higher DPS.
First big WTF in this list.
First off, they've killed the Beagle. Dead in the water, it's done. It already was kinda iffy with no drones, but now that it has no neut or nos, it's absolutely done.
So, let's talk rail fits. First off, it's grid fucked -- can't fit a full rack of 250mm guns without a ACR or PDS. (PDS ends up being ideal -- the added ROF on medium rails means increased cap draw, and the Eagle's cap was already shitty before the changes.) From there, one asks -- what is this ship's role? It's certainly not alpha. With the biggest medium rails and 3x BCSes, you're putting down 1400 alpha with CNAM at 50km. So Eagle is certainly not a frig-swatter.
As far as I can tell, the ideal for the new Eagle is to be a 60-70km skirmisher. Fit a MWD, double LSE, double invuln, load up Thorium, and put out ~375dps per ship at 70-80km, with better tank and effective tracking than a Naga/Rokh but half the damage.
Frankly, though, I don't buy it. Ultimately, given the isk and SP cost for an Eagle, you are ultimately better off getting a Tornado, Talos, or Naga. Yes, these ships have worse tracking due to the increased target signature (400m vs 125m). But, what is the shape of the field when you're fighting a skirmishing fleet? Skirmishers are kiting -- they're pulsing MWD to maintain 70km distance and drawing their enemy out behind them. Transversals in a skirmishing fleet are intentionally kept minimal. Look at the wrecks left behind on the field whenever skirmishers fight -- you can draw a line straight through them.
Ultimately, the constraints of FCing mean that tracking really isn't an issue for skirmishing fleets in practical use. As long as this is the case, the T3 BCs are going to continue to wipe the floor with comparable medium-turret ships. Especially in the case of the Eagle, which struggles to remain capstable while kiting, and has to use Thorium to reach out to skirmish range. "But the Eagle tracks better" is an argument that is both A) true, and B) irrelevant to Eve reality.
RISE, WHY ARE YOU DESTROYING MY FAVORITE SHIPS.
So, it's a little bit faster now. It gains a fourth mid, but loses the option high. What does this get us?
First off, blaster deimos is a little more hairy. It continues to be grid-fucked, so you struggle to fit a 1600mm plate + prop mod + ions. The option slot loss makes armor setups a lot less useful:
* With no medium neut, it's a lot less useful to gangs.
* With no medium nos to help counteract neuts / run MAARs, it's a lot less useful to soloers -- and you don't have the grid for a medium injector unless you switch to an 800mm plate and/or electrons.
In theory, you can use the fourth mid for a double-LSE shield blaster boat. This is pretty sexy, other than the fact that you have a 0% EM shield resist (i.e. two T2 anti-em rigs are mandatory) and you're instantly dead in the water if you get neuted.
Shield rail deimoses are viable now, but the medium rail tracking nerf, plus the fact that the Deimos has no tracking bonus, makes them unlikely. On TQ today, you can fit up a 250mm rail Deimos and orbit at 20km, and you won't be able to hit a stationary target; the tracking nerf to medium rails will only make that worse.
Armor rail deimoses will require two ACRs. Not even thinking about it.
This almost makes up for the ruining of the Deimos.
Gardes reach out to 45km now stock, and Curators to 78km. Two Omnitracks make those 70km and 115km, respectively. However, the guns remain useless as ever, and the tank continues to be an issue. This is basically the only HAC that's not outclassed by Tech3 cruisers or T3 BCs, simply because there is no drone Tech3.
Ultimately, though, it's just a little better -- not enough to really distinguish it from the VNI or Dominix, and certainly not enough to justify the isk or SP investment.
I expect that some plated Ishtar doctrines might emerge as a complement to today's Dominix doctrines. (However, the lack of MJD might be an issue.) However, other than that, it's in the middle of the road of the HAC lineup; it doesn't really excel at anything.
Some win, some loss.
Shield arty Muninns weren't using their option highs anyways other than small neuts. They get to fit a damage control for an extra 8k EHP, or a third TE (to compensate for the tracking nerf), or a nano; they gain an 11% DPS due to the arty ROF gain. Ultimately, Elo Knight will be happy, but their position in the Eve meta won't change here.
Armor Muninns (stop laughing) don't really change either. The AC+HAM fit is gone, obviously; the only real fit now is 5x 220mm ACs + med neut, and you pick up a lowslot for a gyro. Net DPS ends up being about the same.
I'm flabbergasted at how foolish this change is. The Vagabond was already functionally obsolete compared to the Cynabal, and they've actually managed to make it worse. The ranting for this is best put at a separate post here.
Three terrible changes. Two no-ops. And three ships that are slightly better than before, but ultimately remain outclassed by Tech3 cruisers or Tier-3 BCs, both in absolute performance and in bang-for-isk/sp ratios.
Wormhole dwellers, Naga/Tornado/Cynabal producers, and T1 cruiser fans: you have nothing to fear at this time. It's almost angering how bad these changes are.
It is kind of strange to see an argument saying that tracking doesn't matter thus Naga > Eagle, then on the next line saying tracking does matter thus Railmos is bad.
Tracking have the potential to matter or not matter depending on gang formats and the tackle available to each side.
I happen to think the nano-railmos have some good potential to be teased out. With help of long range tackle (recon, linked-rf-point) plus a linked environment, you can have a huge (tracking * signature) advantage against many opponent types while having slight mobility advantage to make use of it, letting you do damage without taking any. If your medium guns isn't tracking your opponent's large guns certainly have zero chance of tracking a much smaller target. Against anything with better tracking and/or smaller sig, you have better range.
Just need to find that range where your 30% off chase/run vector burn can just barely track that arty tornado while avoiding getting hit at the same time.
Last edited by Shin_getter; July 19 2013 at 03:57:16 AM.
In skirmish gangs -- where you'd imagine the Eagle to have it's niche -- tracking is not as valuable. So, you have your choice of:
* a ship with good tracking but mediocre DPS (Eagle)
* a ship with crappy tracking and amazing DPS (Naga)
Under that situation, the Naga is the clear choice. The Eagle is nice on paper, but in that situation, the Naga wins.
The opposite is true for the Railmos. Rail Deimoses, being nanoships carrying their own personal points and a very light shield tank, are more likely be used for hit-and-run ops in small gangs. In that case, everyone is responsible for their own survival and their own DPS, rather than "FC said to knock you out." The Deimos' shitty tracking becomes an issue.
If you tried to take a Deimos to a skirmishing fleet, it's tracking would be acceptable. (Its tank, and optimal range, would not be.)
More tracking definitely would help the railmos, since killing tackle is critical in microgangs.
However that damage output at range combined with speed and sig means it is worth using despite that. Against anything with (long range) medium guns and up, if you aren't tracking your opponent isn't either, while there are still many situations where you'd track when your opponent doesn't thanks to small sig.
Just need a plan of sorts to cover for weaknesses.
I kicked in
When do we get the new changes?
Originally Posted by Quackbot
A very entitled question, reeking with "i'm-a-fucking-twat"
Ty nam, was just a random question, no assumptions or entitlement.
I haven't used these files except once for cruise missiles. Am slightly interested in the new eagle-most of the reason sniper hacs died out was due to lack of dps, tank, and more applied dps at their range. Eagle has tank, gets a mid, proper fittings this time, and rails are getting buffed.
Sniperhacs could potentially be coming back IMO...
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
For when the inevitable happens. Alt Accounts(tm).