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Thread: Some are more equal than others?

  1. #41

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    That's the problem with feminism, it's much too diverse in what they want and believe, but they all identify as feminists. Even ones like this
    Still identify as feminists, and if you speak out against one for being a complete retard, you've viewed as being against feminism in general.
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  2. #42
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    Men can't be feminists, they can only be rapists or gay.

    http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/201...-supporter-if/
    He has ever sexually engaged with any woman while she was~~ subjected to psychological, physical, economic, or emotional coercion.
    So, if someone has sex with a woman who is horny, it's rape? Yea, this chick is fucking nuts.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    That's the problem with feminism, it's much too diverse in what they want and believe, but they all identify as feminists.
    replace 'feminism' with pretty much any group and you'll see how absurd what you said was. here, let me show you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami, alternate reality edition View Post
    That's the problem with christians, it's much too diverse in what they want and believe, but they all identify as christian.
    all feminists share the same root: the end of gender inequality. Past that, there's a diversity in opinions, which is not a bad thing. There are feminists who believe pornography is inherently destructive to women and degrading. There are feminists who think that porn and sex are great things when done with respect. The two argue with each other a lot.

    Still identify as feminists, and if you speak out against one for being a complete retard, you've viewed as being against feminism in general.
    It depends on how you argue and what you're arguing about. In this case, I'd point out that members of marginalized groups have the right (and good reason) to be upset at the people disrespecting their rights and opinions. Calling her 'a complete retard', for example, would be a pretty shitty thing to say.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Out of curiosity, what would be required for there to be real "equallity for women" in the U.S. for example, legally speaking. What would be required, specificly.

    If you ask me "should there be equallity for women", I cannot fathom anyone saying "fuck no" to that. I know I wouldn't say no.

    But what does it mean? In a policy-of-government, legal, standpoint, what does equality for women mean in the specifics?

    For a start, equal pay for equal work, is a cornerstone of this right? Certainly gets my support, with some caveats (i.e. no two people are equal, pay should be based on productivity, i.e. merit, without race/gender/etc being a factor).

    But what else? Say you're writing the bullet points for a new bill before Congress called the "Equality for Women Act", what are those bullet points?
    It'd be pretty impossible to come up with a list. There's obviously some things like equal work for equal pay, abortion, and access to birth control; but like I'm telling Shiroi here, there's plenty of disagreement within feminist groups as to what the best path to equality is, and what should really be included as 'gender equality'. Some feminists might say that equality for women includes trans women and therefore LGBT rights...some will not.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Legionnaire View Post
    It seems like we just need to accept the fundamental differences between men and women before even having a national conversation about equality.
    What percentage of the US population doesn't already believe this, though?

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  6. #46
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    In Denmark a "feminist" group wanted to spend 4 million dollars of tax payer money on setting up female pissoirs (or how you spell it), were women can stand up and piss. All in the name of equality.


  7. #47
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    Some people ( a lot of people ) miss the difference between "equal" and "identical".

    Global androgeny is not the solution to gender inequality.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Legionnaire View Post
    I have no problem with womens' rights activists, I think we can all agree that women are largely treated as second class citizens in large swaths of non-developed countries.
    Yeah - but don't assume that women being treated like shit is just something that happens in afghanistan. There's obviously a huge difference in degree and repercussions, but that doesn't mean its not worth dealing with ~first world issues~, too.

    I will say however that in the United States there are a lot of social double standards that place men in an interestingly negative position relative to the opposite sex.
    Low hanging fruit obviously being the double standard against men who have been abused by women. Their often treated like nothing happened, told to "man up", or congratulated.
    Sure. If you ask yourself why that is though, you can pretty easily see that this is why men should be feminists; they are harmed by the institutional systems of sexism, too. Sexism says that men are superior to women, that masculinity is superior to femininity, and that both men and women and masculinity and femininity are in direct opposition to one another.

    If you understand these as true, you can pretty easily see that men who are abused by women are not viewed as masculine (strong, dominant, aggressive)* and instead are viewed as feminine (weak, deferential, passive)* - and that's where the shaming comes from. You could view it as a type of misogyny; 'femininity is bad, therefore men who are viewed as feminine are also bad'.

    *these are societal views, and not my own.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Some people ( a lot of people ) miss the difference between "equal" and "identical".

    Global androgeny is not the solution to gender inequality.
    *androgyny

    also, who said it was the solution? the straw feminists?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    It'd be pretty impossible to come up with a list. There's plenty of disagreement within feminist groups as to what the best path to equality is, and what should really be included as 'gender equality'
    It would be far easier to address the issue if there was something close to consensus on the issue on the side claiming a lack of equality.

    With that said, you did provide some examples to look at.

    There's obviously some things like equal work for equal pay,
    A given. The only reasoning for a difference in pay between a man and a woman is productivity and attendence, if such a discrepancy were to exist. I would think the vast majority would support this on it's own.

    abortion
    Forgive me, but can you explain what equality issue exists regarding abortion? Men are incappable of having one, and women can currently have one with only minor restrictions on late term, so how could there be equallity here?

    and access to birth control
    When you say "access", I assume you mean "State Paid or Health Insurance Paid (by Law) Free Birth Control"? Because access is as easy as going to any super market or 7-11.

    I agree in principle that if teh State of a Insurer chooses to cover men's sexual aids such as Viagra, they should certainly cover birth control. Seems very reasonable to me.

    On another note...

    It will be interesting when the flip of this issue also comes into play down the road.

    For example, men getting the same time off benefits as women when they (the man's wife/parner/surrogate) is having a child. Or being given the same flexabillity regarding child-based issues most women get in the modern U.S. office.

    Or the massive advantage women currently posess in custody battles and divorce proceedings being leveled out.

    Etc.

    I'm looking forward to the first woman U.S. President. I had thought it would be Ms. Clinton, but it seems we preferred an African American first over a woman, /shrug. Now I think it's too late, and her work during the Obama Administration has not helped her cause for a possible 2016 in many eyes. Who esle is out there, I wonder, that has a real shot in 2016 who is a woman?



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    Sexism says that men are superior to women, that masculinity is superior to femininity, and that both men and women and masculinity and femininity are in direct opposition to one another.
    Actually, sexism says only that one gender is better than the other. It does not specify which gender is the superior one. Sexism from women to men happens, maybe not as often as men to women, but it still happens.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    That's the problem with feminism, it's much too diverse in what they want and believe, but they all identify as feminists.
    replace 'feminism' with pretty much any group and you'll see how absurd what you said was. here, let me show you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami, alternate reality edition View Post
    That's the problem with christians, it's much too diverse in what they want and believe, but they all identify as christian.
    all feminists share the same root: the end of gender inequality. Past that, there's a diversity in opinions, which is not a bad thing. There are feminists who believe pornography is inherently destructive to women and degrading. There are feminists who think that porn and sex are great things when done with respect. The two argue with each other a lot.

    Still identify as feminists, and if you speak out against one for being a complete retard, you've viewed as being against feminism in general.
    It depends on how you argue and what you're arguing about. In this case, I'd point out that members of marginalized groups have the right (and good reason) to be upset at the people disrespecting their rights and opinions. Calling her 'a complete retard', for example, would be a pretty shitty thing to say.
    Such wide differences are not as prominent (Or extreme) in christianity, to use your own example, and the religious equivalents of militant feminists, like the westborough baptist church, are afaik being classified as hate groups, but god forbid if someone try and label a group which wants to kill 2.7 billion people a hate group, cause then you would be sexist. At the same time though even the most extreme of christian fundamentalists, while like militant feminists support mass genocide, it's not quite on the same scale.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    Sexism says that men are superior to women, that masculinity is superior to femininity, and that both men and women and masculinity and femininity are in direct opposition to one another.
    Actually, sexism says only that one gender is better than the other. It does not specify which gender is the superior one. Sexism from women to men happens, maybe not as often as men to women, but it still happens.
    if you pull your definition of sexism from dictionary.com, sure

    granted - misandry exists, but it's not institutionalized, it's not ingrained in society, it's not something men fight against every day. A person might be a misandrist and treat men like shit. Society is misogynistic, everyone is subject to social pressures to treat women like shit. To call what men go through 'sexism' is a bit like when people say that paying taxes is like slavery. It's false equivalence.
    Last edited by Ampoliros; February 11 2013 at 11:17:20 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    It would be far easier to address the issue if there was something close to consensus on the issue on the side claiming a lack of equality.
    there's no disagreement with the lack of equality, there's disagreement as to how that lack of equality should be fixed.

    abortion
    Forgive me, but can you explain what equality issue exists regarding abortion? Men are incappable of having one, and women can currently have one with only minor restrictions on late term, so how could there be equallity here?
    Men have the right to bodily autonomy, to make decisions about their bodies and health without governmental interference. Women do not.

    Moreover, there's a constant push back against said rights, and constant attempts to place absurd hurdles throughout the process.

    and access to birth control
    When you say "access", I assume you mean "State Paid or Health Insurance Paid (by Law) Free Birth Control"? Because access is as easy as going to any super market or 7-11.

    I agree in principle that if teh State of a Insurer chooses to cover men's sexual aids such as Viagra, they should certainly cover birth control. Seems very reasonable to me.
    p. much. Again, not an exhaustive list, best I can come up with at 3am or whatever.

    For example, men getting the same time off benefits as women when they (the man's wife/parner/surrogate) is having a child. Or being given the same flexabillity regarding child-based issues most women get in the modern U.S. office.

    Or the massive advantage women currently posess in custody battles and divorce proceedings being leveled out.
    I'd be in favor of equal time off benefits, or some sort of shared time off benefit for both individuals; i think most feminists would.

    the 'massive advantage of women in custody/divorce proceedings' is of debatable veracity. From what I recall, men and women receive custody roughly equally when both partners try to seek it, and I think most feminists support that too. Again, to paraphrase my argument from a few posts back, the flip side of 'men can't be good caretakers' is that 'all women must be great caretakers', which is sexist.

    No idea about divorce, but i don't know how it's unfair to split marital assets in half.

    I'm looking forward to the first woman U.S. President. I had thought it would be Ms. Clinton, but it seems we preferred an African American first over a woman, /shrug. Now I think it's too late, and her work during the Obama Administration has not helped her cause for a possible 2016 in many eyes. Who esle is out there, I wonder, that has a real shot in 2016 who is a woman?
    Don't think it's too late, but I guess we'll see.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    there's no disagreement with the lack of equality, there's disagreement as to how that lack of equality should be fixed.
    What's your preference for corrective action?

    Men have the right to bodily autonomy, to make decisions about their bodies and health without governmental interference. Women do not.
    Men cannot posess/create another life within them, the key difference in this issue.

    Moreover, there's a constant push back against said rights.
    Base Politics, and not very successful politics at that. When (R) controlled the Govt. they did nothing at the Federal Level to really effect Roe v. Wade, which is very telling.

    p. much. Again, not an exhaustive list, best I can come up with at 3am or whatever.
    Aye, understood.

    I'd be in favor of equal time off benefits, or some sort of shared time off benefit for both individuals; i think most feminists would.
    Employers wouldn't. Hence the issue. With that said, some upper-tier U.S. employers have started heading in this direction.

    the 'massive advantage of women in custody/divorce proceedings' is of debatable veracity. From what I recall, men and women receive custody roughly equally when both partners try to seek it
    I'd have to see a source on that, one not written by a biased special interest group. Sadly, I myself lack a source as well, but my memory of my State on contested custody was somethign close to 75%+ Pro-Women.

    No idea about divorce, but i don't know how it's unfair to split marital assets in half.
    Well, one example would be a case where one partner did nothing to aquire those assets, i.e. did no work during the period of the union.

    Such a prtner would be entitled to some, but certainly not half.

    Also, issues of equaillity in issues like ex-spouse paid alimony would also need looked at. Women do not deserve ongoing fiscal support simply fort being a woman in an equal setting.

    Don't think it's too late, but I guess we'll see.
    Indeed.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    Such wide differences are not as prominent (Or extreme) in christianity, to use your own example
    uhm, yes, they really are. Christianity is a pretty wide set of beliefs.

    Anyhow, we'll go with the more accessable example of political parties. Ron Paul is a republican. George W. Bush is a republican. The two hold vastly different views on many issues, but share some common views too. It's not a sound argument against republicans to say 'Hey, you two have different views on some stuff, what the fuck? I'm going to ignore you'

    You don't need to enforce purity of beliefs across an entire group to argue for something. That's absurd.

    and the religious equivalents of militant feminists, like the westborough baptist church, are afaik being classified as hate groups, but god forbid if someone try and label a group which wants to kill 2.7 billion people a hate group, cause then you would be sexist. At the same time though even the most extreme of christian fundamentalists, while like militant feminists support mass genocide, it's not quite on the same scale.
    where are all these militant feminists? How are they organizing to kill men? How do they expect to get away with it?

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    It's about looking over your shoulder as a member of a class known for holding a majority of racists/sexists/homophobes etc and always having to defend onesself as a member of that class rather than as an individual.
    How many times in your life has this actually happened?
    I don't keep count. Often enough that "how many times in my life" is an unreasonable number to count. Maybe times per year or times per month.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumWithMe2012 View Post
    Just throwing in my two-cents for this one. I'm a band director for high school. I absolutely love to teach and make music every day for my career. May not be paid much in the teaching field but it's what I love. As far as teacher demographics, the majority of teachers in today's society are female. However, in the field of music, high school band directors are predominately male. I'm an oddball for my field and I love it. I don't get paid less because I'm a woman, and I didn't get my job simply because I have a rack. I have never understood why women get so angry about men in the work place or men in general, saying that they are oppressed by men. I'm an independent woman and can take care of myself. I don't need to bitch about anything to get my way. I've also grown up being "one of the boys" and don't take crap. No one should, regardless of your sex, sexuality, or race. I had a professor who was a HUGE feminist. If there was something going on in the world in which women were being put down, we'd hear about it. There will aways be racism or sexism. se la vie, I suppose.
    "Guys I don't personally seem to suffer from discrimination in the workplace therefore it doesn't exist and women who complain about it should just man up."

    A woman complaining about discrimination in the workplace is "bitching to get their own way" now?
    Whoa Lall you're taking this way to adversarially. I think her post was meant to be a more lighthearted "not everyone in today's world needs to be part of the gender wars" sort of post. No need to start fires there.

    It really was meant to be completely light-hearted. I work with a lot of women who constantly complain that the men are getting paid/treated better than the women. I'm a brand new teacher and a band director at that so I'm one of a kind in my career. Ironically enough, most female high school directors are some of the best in the business so I have no complaints there because I work my ass off. Cue* can attest to that. My point of my original post was simply to state that if a person goes into a job with the thought process of "I'm going to work my best and earn all that is given to me," one will find that there's a pretty even playing field out there.
    to live, would be an awfully big adventure.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    It'd be pretty impossible to come up with a list. There's plenty of disagreement within feminist groups as to what the best path to equality is, and what should really be included as 'gender equality'
    It would be far easier to address the issue if there was something close to consensus on the issue on the side claiming a lack of equality.

    With that said, you did provide some examples to look at.

    There's obviously some things like equal work for equal pay,

    abortion
    Forgive me, but can you explain what equality issue exists regarding abortion? Men are incappable of having one, and women can currently have one with only minor restrictions on late term, so how could there be equallity here?

    and access to birth control
    When you say "access", I assume you mean "State Paid or Health Insurance Paid (by Law) Free Birth Control"? Because access is as easy as going to any super market or 7-11.

    I agree in principle that if the State of a Insurer chooses to cover men's sexual aids such as Viagra, they should certainly cover birth control. Seems very reasonable to me.

    For example, men getting the same time off benefits as women when they (the man's wife/parner/surrogate) is having a child. Or being given the same flexabillity regarding child-based issues most women get in the modern U.S. office.

    Of course, men cannot birth a child. They can have a vasectomy though. No questions asked. A different form of "birth control" if you will but still, there's no baby without the sperm. I think the birth control and abortion stances are what I have an issue with today. It's my body. I should choose what to do with it. I don't feel that anyone else should have the right to tell me that I couldn't have an abortion. Out of the house and the senate combined, only about 20% of them are women so one cannot say that women don't have a voice in congress. But it should be no one's right but my own to choose to take birth control or have an abortion. I stand very firm on that issue.

    I have access to birth control. All I had to do was go to the doctor and say "I need to be on the pill." $3.00 later, and I'm set for a month. Some healthcare providers even do them for free. I suppose there's always the issue of obtaining the pill without healthcare but there's always planned parenthood and there are other organizations that have help structures set in place. Also, whatever happened to a condom? Can't be on the pill? Can't afford the kid? No condom? Well, I guess that means no sex for you. Common sense.

    I don't want kids. As a teacher, I have about 50 of them and I don't really want one of my own. However, if I ever were to have a baby with future husband and I wanted to go back to work, I would have no issue with him staying home. The issue is that how do you tell a company or employer that your wife just had a baby and isn't taking maternity leave but you're taking it for her while she goes back to work. I'm sure that this isn't unheard of but I can't imagine the reaction on an employer's face. An open-minded one may consider this but they'll have to consider the implications on their company while this man is absent for 2-3 months taking care of a baby. I have to wonder how often that actually happens.

    Lastly, equal work for equal pay. I work 10 hours. Mr. Johnson works 10 hours. We do the same job. Accomplish the same tasks. Same quality of work. I expect that we'd both be paid the same. Is my work any different because I'm a woman??? Absolutely not. I can't see how any person could argue otherwise.
    to live, would be an awfully big adventure.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    Such wide differences are not as prominent (Or extreme) in christianity, to use your own example
    uhm, yes, they really are. Christianity is a pretty wide set of beliefs.

    Anyhow, we'll go with the more accessable example of political parties. Ron Paul is a republican. George W. Bush is a republican. The two hold vastly different views on many issues, but share some common views too. It's not a sound argument against republicans to say 'Hey, you two have different views on some stuff, what the fuck? I'm going to ignore you'

    You don't need to enforce purity of beliefs across an entire group to argue for something. That's absurd.

    and the religious equivalents of militant feminists, like the westborough baptist church, are afaik being classified as hate groups, but god forbid if someone try and label a group which wants to kill 2.7 billion people a hate group, cause then you would be sexist. At the same time though even the most extreme of christian fundamentalists, while like militant feminists support mass genocide, it's not quite on the same scale.
    where are all these militant feminists? How are they organizing to kill men? How do they expect to get away with it?
    You're either being deliberately obtuse or have a significant lack of reading comprehension skills
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    Still identify as feminists, and if you speak out against one for being a complete retard, you've viewed as being against feminism in general.
    Sure you can, the #misandry person is a complete retard, and I am a feminist man. If all females (we have a few, right?) on this forum say that I can't hold both viewpoints, then I will believe you. Until then, nothing wrong with criticizing one individual without criticizing an entire group.

    Quote Originally Posted by I Legionnaire View Post
    It seems like we just need to accept the fundamental differences between men and women before even having a national conversation about equality.
    We could argue all day about what, if any, are the "fundamental differences between men and women". Why does that have to be resolved before pursuing equality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    if you pull your definition of sexism from dictionary.com, sure

    granted - misandry exists, but it's not institutionalized, it's not ingrained in society, it's not something men fight against every day. A person might be a misandrist and treat men like shit. Society is misogynistic, everyone is subject to social pressures to treat women like shit. To call what men go through 'sexism' is a bit like when people say that paying taxes is like slavery. It's false equivalence.
    Women can be sexist, I have seen it, and it is annoying. Sure, they aren't the dominant gender in society, so it does not have as big an impact as misogyny, but I can still call it out when I see it. Not the same as calling taxation slavery, bigotry is always a problem in any form.
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