hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 2 of 14 FirstFirst 1234512 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 270

Thread: Some are more equal than others?

  1. #21
    Synapse's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,111
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrien View Post
    I know quite a few women who could be considered feminists under some of the definitions throw about here. Most of them just want a fair shake in a world that is still heavily stacked towards men. They want the same career opportunities as male counter-parts; they want to be paid the same as men who are doing the same job. They don't want to be sexually harassed just because they're easy on the eye. They may not have the same sense as humor as you, and they may get offended at the sexual joke you and your mates would normally share. None of this makes them militant, or anything to fear. It just means like you and I they're human beings who deserve to be treated with respect. You should always be thinking before you opening your mouth and speaking... who is my audience and will they be offended by what I say. If they're going to offended do I really care... you get to make a choice and then they get to make some value judgements about what type of person you are.

    Are there woman out there whose beliefs go far beyond these basic demands... yes; but they're such a minor part of feminism and they're nothing to fear. There are plenty of male misogynists out there who vocalise radical views of their own.
    Too bad this thread isnt specifically about femisim _or_ logical fears.

    It's about looking over your shoulder as a member of a class known for holding a majority of racists/sexists/homophobes etc and always having to defend onesself as a member of that class rather than as an individual.

    It has a lot more in common with equality campaigns than not.

    The whole point of this thread is how hard it is to be considered as an individual and look how quickly we're saying "feminists are all nice girls who just want simple equality and there are so few of the others you might as well treat them as if they dont exist." Which is exactly the point. You're ignoring the individual merits of people and judging based on the class instead.

    If you point out that this is a lost cause, I'll refer you to post #2 in the entire thread. Doesn't mean it's not worth discussing.
    Last edited by Synapse; January 29 2013 at 11:56:38 AM.

  2. #22
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    17,668
    Synapse when that becomes a problem even 1/1000 as significant in objective severity and frequency as the residual anti-women discrimination, anti-minority discrimination etc then you'll have a point.

    Until then, this is just another argument primarily used by white western guys to justify not having to scrutinise their indifference to discrimination against others by reference to the bogeyman of straw feminists in the closet (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=341).


    We can all agree that the incredibly small minority of misandrists are as bad as misogynists. But how is this salient, relevant or otherwise interesting?
    Last edited by Lallante; January 29 2013 at 12:14:01 PM.

  3. #23
    Synapse's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,111
    I'm reading that as an attempt to shut down the conversation by saying my points (however valid) are not as important as some other (HEY LOOK OVER HERE, INSTEAD!) points. We can have an anti-discrimination ragefest thread. I predict it will be boring because we all agree with each other. Vehemently so. This is not that thread.

    Also you've managed to insinuate without actually saying so that anyone who disagrees with you(read: whispous, myself, others) is at best indifferent to injustice and inequality, and potentially hiding feelings in support.

    That's an unfair way to treat individuals but I guess you're doing a wonderful job of illustrating what the thread is about. The strategy goes like this: First, associate some group of arbitrary people with a group of objectively bad people -> Second, you can shut down the opinions of anyone from that arbitrary group regardless of the validity of what they say, because they are associated with bad people now.

    Edit: For comparison - Lallante, when anything you post about becomes a problem even 1/1000 as significant in objective severity and frequency as the tens of thousands who die yearly in wars and armed conflict then you'll have a point. Until then post only about armed conflict or you don't have a point.
    Last edited by Synapse; January 29 2013 at 12:44:59 PM.

  4. #24
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    17,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    I'm reading that as an attempt to shut down the conversation by saying my points (however valid) are not as important as some other (HEY LOOK OVER HERE, INSTEAD!) points. We can have an anti-discrimination ragefest thread. I predict it will be boring because we all agree with each other. This is not that thread.

    Also you've managed to insinuate without actually saying so that anyone who disagrees with you(read: whispous, myself, others) is at best indifferent to injustice and inequality, and potentially hiding feelings in support.

    That's an unfair way to treat individuals but I guess you're doing a wonderful job of illustrating what the thread is about. Associate some group with bad people -> shut down the opinions of anyone from that group regardless of the validity of what they say.
    That's not far off my point, but you are missing the key follow up. People, a LOT of people, work themselves up into indignation about this, a very very minor, but legitimate, point ON PURPOSE as an excuse (conscious or unconscious) for not giving a fuck about the corrolary discrimination against minorities/women.


    edit: I've re-read the thread and realised I'm reading a bit too much into this. I'll back down and finish just by saying that my experience is that a large proportion of people who, when presented with the issue of gender inequality, get really angry at "those damn radical feminists" are either closet misogynists or else dont know what radical feminism is. But of course its legit to discuss it in its own thread

    PS: Modern radical feminism (opposition to the patriarchy) is really, really dumb and most of its adherents are trolls or misandrists.
    Last edited by Lallante; January 29 2013 at 01:06:59 PM.

  5. #25
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    17,668
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_ar..._rocks_at_them!

    This is a perfect case in point. I shouldn't have to mention how many millions of t-shirts you can get that include references to "bitches" or other women-denigrating (and fairly harmless) slogans which were not remarked upon by the organisers of this campaign.

  6. #26
    Tarminic's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    2,998
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    It's about looking over your shoulder as a member of a class known for holding a majority of racists/sexists/homophobes etc and always having to defend onesself as a member of that class rather than as an individual.
    How many times in your life has this actually happened?

    Status of Babby: 100% Formed

  7. #27

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    North Britain
    Posts
    1,998
    Have you considered the possibility that instead of "over-entitlement", it is something else ?

    There have always been people with the attitude that someone else is to blame for whatever misfortune occurs. Real or imagined.
    You know, things like, "that other guy got promoted instead of me, must be because of (imagined reason)".

    So, you encounter N women that have that attitude, and one of the reasons they claim they're hard done by is "oppression by men."
    And because that's a common reason given, then you see what looks like a pattern, because you've forgotten the other women that don't fit the pattern.

    So, instead of there being "militant feminists with over-entitlement attitudes", you've just encountered a number of angry women that your brain has noticed ?

  8. #28

    Join Date
    December 20, 2012
    Posts
    104
    Just throwing in my two-cents for this one. I'm a band director for high school. I absolutely love to teach and make music every day for my career. May not be paid much in the teaching field but it's what I love. As far as teacher demographics, the majority of teachers in today's society are female. However, in the field of music, high school band directors are predominately male. I'm an oddball for my field and I love it. I don't get paid less because I'm a woman, and I didn't get my job simply because I have a rack. I have never understood why women get so angry about men in the work place or men in general, saying that they are oppressed by men. I'm an independent woman and can take care of myself. I don't need to bitch about anything to get my way. I've also grown up being "one of the boys" and don't take crap. No one should, regardless of your sex, sexuality, or race. I had a professor who was a HUGE feminist. If there was something going on in the world in which women were being put down, we'd hear about it. There will aways be racism or sexism. se la vie, I suppose.
    to live, would be an awfully big adventure.

  9. #29
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    17,668
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumWithMe2012 View Post
    Just throwing in my two-cents for this one. I'm a band director for high school. I absolutely love to teach and make music every day for my career. May not be paid much in the teaching field but it's what I love. As far as teacher demographics, the majority of teachers in today's society are female. However, in the field of music, high school band directors are predominately male. I'm an oddball for my field and I love it. I don't get paid less because I'm a woman, and I didn't get my job simply because I have a rack. I have never understood why women get so angry about men in the work place or men in general, saying that they are oppressed by men. I'm an independent woman and can take care of myself. I don't need to bitch about anything to get my way. I've also grown up being "one of the boys" and don't take crap. No one should, regardless of your sex, sexuality, or race. I had a professor who was a HUGE feminist. If there was something going on in the world in which women were being put down, we'd hear about it. There will aways be racism or sexism. se la vie, I suppose.
    "Guys I don't personally seem to suffer from discrimination in the workplace therefore it doesn't exist and women who complain about it should just man up."

    A woman complaining about discrimination in the workplace is "bitching to get their own way" now?

  10. #30
    Synapse's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,111
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    It's about looking over your shoulder as a member of a class known for holding a majority of racists/sexists/homophobes etc and always having to defend onesself as a member of that class rather than as an individual.
    How many times in your life has this actually happened?
    I don't keep count. Often enough that "how many times in my life" is an unreasonable number to count. Maybe times per year or times per month.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumWithMe2012 View Post
    Just throwing in my two-cents for this one. I'm a band director for high school. I absolutely love to teach and make music every day for my career. May not be paid much in the teaching field but it's what I love. As far as teacher demographics, the majority of teachers in today's society are female. However, in the field of music, high school band directors are predominately male. I'm an oddball for my field and I love it. I don't get paid less because I'm a woman, and I didn't get my job simply because I have a rack. I have never understood why women get so angry about men in the work place or men in general, saying that they are oppressed by men. I'm an independent woman and can take care of myself. I don't need to bitch about anything to get my way. I've also grown up being "one of the boys" and don't take crap. No one should, regardless of your sex, sexuality, or race. I had a professor who was a HUGE feminist. If there was something going on in the world in which women were being put down, we'd hear about it. There will aways be racism or sexism. se la vie, I suppose.
    "Guys I don't personally seem to suffer from discrimination in the workplace therefore it doesn't exist and women who complain about it should just man up."

    A woman complaining about discrimination in the workplace is "bitching to get their own way" now?
    Whoa Lall you're taking this way to adversarially. I think her post was meant to be a more lighthearted "not everyone in today's world needs to be part of the gender wars" sort of post. No need to start fires there.

  11. #31
    Ampoliros's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Aperture Harmonics
    Posts
    1,013
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    It's about looking over your shoulder as a member of a class known for holding a majority of racists/sexists/homophobes etc and always having to defend onesself as a member of that class rather than as an individual.
    How many times in your life has this actually happened?
    I don't keep count. Often enough that "how many times in my life" is an unreasonable number to count. Maybe times per year or times per month.
    This just seems like a variation of the 'I have to watch what I say' argument. If the worst thing you have to deal with is accusations (by whom?) of having shitty opinions, I maintain that you're doing pretty well. Everyone has to deal with that. You're not going to show up for a job interview one day and not get hired because 'you could be racist'.

  12. #32
    SAI Peregrinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 13, 2011
    Posts
    1,708
    Not every woman is oppressed. Not every black person is oppressed. Not every member of [insert group here] is oppressed. That doesn't mean that none are oppressed, and it doesn't make oppression OK.

  13. #33
    Tarminic's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    2,998
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    It's about looking over your shoulder as a member of a class known for holding a majority of racists/sexists/homophobes etc and always having to defend onesself as a member of that class rather than as an individual.
    How many times in your life has this actually happened?
    I don't keep count. Often enough that "how many times in my life" is an unreasonable number to count. Maybe times per year or times per month.
    Who the hell do you hang out with that you have to defend yourself as a member of the male gender on a monthly basis? I can seriously count on one hand the number of times I've ever had a conversation like that.

    Status of Babby: 100% Formed

  14. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    April 18, 2011
    Location
    Only one here to predict a win for God Emperor
    Posts
    12,463
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Who the hell do you hang out with that you have to defend yourself as a member of the male gender on a monthly basis? I can seriously count on one hand the number of times I've ever had a conversation like that.
    Might be similar to how some people seem to keep ending up on the receiving end of domestic violence?
    Are you an engineer? -- Quack

  15. #35
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    17,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Who the hell do you hang out with that you have to defend yourself as a member of the male gender on a monthly basis? I can seriously count on one hand the number of times I've ever had a conversation like that.
    Might be similar to how some people seem to keep ending up on the receiving end of domestic violence?
    Synapse is attracted to women who emasculate him due to childhood sexual/parental trauma?

  16. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    April 18, 2011
    Location
    Only one here to predict a win for God Emperor
    Posts
    12,463
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Synapse is attracted to women who emasculate him due to childhood sexual/parental trauma?
    Sounds plausible to me.
    Are you an engineer? -- Quack

  17. #37
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 18, 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,405

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US..._1979-2005.gif
    Source : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Division of Information and Marketing Services

    Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

    P.S. You don't have to be a woman to be a feminist. I consider myself a feminist because I support equality for women.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  18. #38
    Alistair's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    14,135
    Out of curiosity, what would be required for there to be real "equallity for women" in the U.S. for example, legally speaking. What would be required, specificly.

    If you ask me "should there be equallity for women", I cannot fathom anyone saying "fuck no" to that. I know I wouldn't say no.

    But what does it mean? In a policy-of-government, legal, standpoint, what does equality for women mean in the specifics?

    For a start, equal pay for equal work, is a cornerstone of this right? Certainly gets my support, with some caveats (i.e. no two people are equal, pay should be based on productivity, i.e. merit, without race/gender/etc being a factor).

    But what else? Say you're writing the bullet points for a new bill before Congress called the "Equality for Women Act", what are those bullet points?



  19. #39

    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Genos, HYDRA
    Posts
    1,092
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US..._1979-2005.gif
    Source : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Division of Information and Marketing Services

    Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

    P.S. You don't have to be a woman to be a feminist. I consider myself a feminist because I support equality for women.
    Men can't be feminists, they can only be rapists or gay.

    http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/201...-supporter-if/
    My latest PVP video: Freestyle III

  20. #40
    Ampoliros's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Aperture Harmonics
    Posts
    1,013
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami View Post
    Men can't be feminists, they can only be rapists or gay.

    http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/201...-supporter-if/
    oh, well, if one woman with a blog said it it must be what every feminist thinks

    to be serious, most feminists would disagree with this woman about most of this list. Hell, most feminists would disagree with her on pretty much everything - she hates transgendered individuals, she hates pornography and BDSM, and pretty much hates men in general. she is a literal straw feminist.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •