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  1. #17181
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  2. #17182
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Your peaceful Spanish collectivists murdered around 100,000 people and would have killed many more had they won. Even the anarchists in Catalonia killed around 10,000. The Zapatista have sacked public property and clashed with police and the army but given how drug cartels and the Zapatista are so hard to tell apart who knows if people in Chiapas are being murdered over politics or drugs.

    How about FARC, they never ..... on wait.

    Sports clubs are voluntary organizations, not some revolutionary force seizing the reigns of power and dealing with those opposed to their takeover, so the analogy is frankly insane. Plus they tend to have hierarchical management structures anyway.

    Just be honest and state that the mortar of the peoples' socialist paradise will be made from the bones of class enemies.

  3. #17183
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    if a system can't survive interference, it's fucking useless and doomed.

  4. #17184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    if a system can't survive interference, it's fucking useless and doomed.
    When the Martians make planetfall I hope you remember this post

  5. #17185
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitroast View Post
    New AI can guess whether you're gay or straight from a photograph

    It would never be abused and Russia would have no interest in this
    Not quite

    >The 91% accuracy rate only applies when one of the two men whose images are shown is known to be gay. Outside the lab the accuracy rate would be much lower.

  6. #17186
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Your peaceful Spanish collectivists murdered around 100,000 people and would have killed many more had they won. Even the anarchists in Catalonia killed around 10,000. The Zapatista have sacked public property and clashed with police and the army but given how drug cartels and the Zapatista are so hard to tell apart who knows if people in Chiapas are being murdered over politics or drugs.

    How about FARC, they never ..... on wait.

    Sports clubs are voluntary organizations, not some revolutionary force seizing the reigns of power and dealing with those opposed to their takeover, so the analogy is frankly insane. Plus they tend to have hierarchical management structures anyway.

    Just be honest and state that the mortar of the peoples' socialist paradise will be made from the bones of class enemies.
    Why are we still complaining about the violent imposition of ideology? Haven't we established that all ideologies do this as they struggle to rise to primacy? Or are we just going to ignore the entire political and economic history of the 19th century? Do all those Irish and Indians who starved to death while forced to remain net-exporters of food by British business interests get any absolution as victims of capitalism, or was that just good old voluntary association and we shouldn't care? Or the Filipinos? Or the Africans? Or the Chinese? Or even the working classes of Western Europe and America, who were killed by the cartload in factories and mills?

    Not that things were all that different in the 20th century... https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html And don't even get me started on how the west has treated the Middle East and its oil... or Vietnam, or even the modern hyperincarceratory police state. You know the US has more people in prison, as a share of its population, than the USSR did at the height of Stalinism?

    So tell me, is political violence ever justified? Or is revolution inherently immoral because it leads to violence? Or is it just that violence that furthers captalism is acceptable, because capitalism is good, whereas violence in furtherance of socialism is unacceptable, because socialism is evil? Or is it just that we don't promote understanding of the violent upheavals that ushered in the glorious era of the "free market", and so we have no understanding of the motivation behind violence done in the name of socialism?

    You can indict 20th century communism for violence all you want, but you don't get to handwave or brush under the carpet the hundreds of millions of deaths that occurred during capitalism's struggle for ideological dominance by saying "Hurr that's just business!"

    It's not business. It's deliberate fucking murder, done for no other reason than profit.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 8 2017 at 03:17:09 PM.

  7. #17187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Your peaceful Spanish collectivists murdered around 100,000 people and would have killed many more had they won. Even the anarchists in Catalonia killed around 10,000. The Zapatista have sacked public property and clashed with police and the army but given how drug cartels and the Zapatista are so hard to tell apart who knows if people in Chiapas are being murdered over politics or drugs.

    How about FARC, they never ..... on wait.

    Sports clubs are voluntary organizations, not some revolutionary force seizing the reigns of power and dealing with those opposed to their takeover, so the analogy is frankly insane. Plus they tend to have hierarchical management structures anyway.

    Just be honest and state that the mortar of the peoples' socialist paradise will be made from the bones of class enemies.
    Why are we still complaining about the violent imposition of ideology? Haven't we established that all ideologies do this as they struggle to rise to primacy? Or are we just going to ignore the entire political and economic history of the 19th century? Do all those Irish and Indians who starved to death while forced to remain net-exporters of food by British business interests get any absolution as victims of capitalism, or was that just good old voluntary association and we shouldn't care? Or the Filipinos? Or the Africans? Or the Chinese? Or even the working classes of Western Europe, who were killed by the cartload in factories and mills?

    Not that things were all that different in the 20th century... https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html And don't even get me started on how the west has treated the Middle East and its oil...

    So tell me, is political violence ever justified? Or is revolution inherently immoral because it leads to violence? Or is it just that violence that furthers captalism is acceptable, because capitalism is good, whereas violence in furtherance of socialism is unacceptable, because socialism is evil?

    You can indict 20th century communism for violence all you want, but you don't get to handwave or brush under the carpet the hundreds of millions of deaths that occurred during capitalism's struggle for ideological dominance by saying "Hurr that's just business!" It's not business. It's fucking murder.
    So lets summarize the Pro-Red argument:

    1. Real communism has never been tried. This time we'll do it right and horizontal and anarchic and Zapatista-like and stuff! Look at who I read, how could I be wrong! You must be too dumb to understand! (the Keck Intellectual Master-Red Position)

    2. Hey Capitalism killed people too, can't make an Omelette without shooting 50 million eggs in the backs of the eggy heads, and imprisoning 100 million other counter-revolutionary eggs for holding the wrong political beliefs, amirite? Getting to our preferred ends justify the typical means. (the Lach/Smuggo Whataboutism/Whats a Few dead Capitalists Defense).




  8. #17188
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    We're also going to need some citations on that 100s of millions figure.

  9. #17189

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    We're also going to need some citations on that 100s of millions figure.
    Unlike our Reds, I'm happy to say it was pulled out of my ass as pure hyperbole.

    If you want to know how many people Communism has killed and imprisoned, I am sure you can find some informed estimates in any number of reputable books on the topic my friend.

    I would suggest a good starting point would be the works of Anne Applebaum or Tim Snyder (for the USSR). For other regimes you'll likely have to look at other authors.




  10. #17190
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Pretty much this - Capitalism via colonialism killed a lot of people but no where near 100s of millions.

    Pretty much what I am annoyed by is the insistence of a particular branch of revolutionary political ideology that somehow they'll take power, smash the current system, then rebuild a new "perfect" system without filling a lot of body bags and camps.

    History has shown us time-and-time again that the signal-minded and ruthless application of power is always accompanied by slaughter.

    I just want honesty - we'll build a non-hierarchical socialist society and it will only require 10 million deaths, 15 million tops!
    Last edited by Maximillian; September 8 2017 at 03:24:19 PM.

  11. #17191

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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Maximillian again.




  12. #17192
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    I know your 100s of millions was hyperbole, but I've heard that figure a few times out of our red friends, so again, some citations that capitalism has killed 100s of millions.

    I mean, I guess if we include Ghengis' lust for gold in the bucket of capitalism, anything is possible, but then words lose meaning.

  13. #17193
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Pretty much this - Capitalism via colonialism killed a lot of people but no where near 100s of millions.

    Pretty much what I am annoyed by is the insistence of a particular branch of revolutionary political ideology that somehow they'll take power, smash the current system, then rebuild a new "perfect" system without filling a lot of body bags and camps.

    History has shown us time-and-time again that the signal-minded and ruthless application of power is always accompanied by slaughter.

    I just want honesty - we'll build a non-hierarchical socialist society and it will only require 10 million deaths, 15 million tops!
    Let's see, the pre-Columbia population of the Americas was between 30 and 80 million, but I suppose you can technically say the first century or so was mercantilism, not capitalism. We can round down and say ~20 million dead, but that figure could well be closer to ~50 million.

    We've got ~60 million dead in British famines in India.

    ~10 million from the Atlantic slave trade.

    ~20 million from the various Nazi war crimes. A similar number for the Japanese.

    ~15 million from French colonialism in Africa.

    That's well over 100 million, and I'm only picking events that have nice clean 8 figure death tolls, ignoring the enormous number of six-and-seven figure events that have occurred in the last 400 years.

    And that leaves out the fact that, setting aside deliberate violence and conquest, about 20 million people a year still die, today, because of starvation, thirst, and lack of medicine. Not because we don't have adequate supply of these things, but because there's no "demand" for food and water and medicine in these "markets." That's 100 million every five years.

  14. #17194
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Pretty much this - Capitalism via colonialism killed a lot of people but no where near 100s of millions.

    Pretty much what I am annoyed by is the insistence of a particular branch of revolutionary political ideology that somehow they'll take power, smash the current system, then rebuild a new "perfect" system without filling a lot of body bags and camps.

    History has shown us time-and-time again that the signal-minded and ruthless application of power is always accompanied by slaughter.

    I just want honesty - we'll build a non-hierarchical socialist society and it will only require 10 million deaths, 15 million tops!
    Let's see, the pre-Columbia population of the Americas was between 30 and 80 million, but I suppose you can technically say the first century or so was mercantilism, not capitalism. We can round down and say ~20 million dead, but that figure could well be closer to ~50 million.

    We've got ~60 million dead in British famines in India.

    ~10 million from the Atlantic slave trade.

    ~20 million from the various Nazi war crimes. A similar number for the Japanese.

    ~15 million from French colonialism in Africa.

    That's well over 100 million, and I'm only picking events that have nice clean 8 figure death tolls, ignoring the enormous number of six-and-seven figure events that have occurred in the last 400 years.

    And that leaves out the fact that, setting aside deliberate violence and conquest, about 20 million people a year still die, today, because of starvation, thirst, and lack of medicine. Not because we don't have adequate supply of these things, but because there's no "demand" for food and water and medicine in these "markets." That's 100 million every five years.
    So modern, liberal democratic society has anything to do with any of that? As I said, cast the net too wide and words lose meaning.
    meh

  15. #17195
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Modern, liberal, "democratic" society is absolutely on the hook for ongoing deaths due to poverty.

    I think it's fair to blame the British for the way they treated India, given that their genocidal reign there didn't end until the 1940s.

    Germany and Japan were both crushed for their actions, but at least they have the good sense to feel ashamed of what they did. They've been fairly well behaved since then.

    The United States has political continuity all the way back to the days of the Atlantic slave trade and Native American genocides, and is directly responsible for millions of deaths in Southeast Asia, Central America, and the Middle East over the past 125 years.

    The "modern era" begins in the early 1600s. I think anything since then is fair game, given the continuity of political and economic systems between now and then.

  16. #17196
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    So the capitalist world killed over 500 years what Mao killed in 30 years.

    You cannot assign 20 million dead due to poverty and disease just to capitalism because capitalism does not control the planet. Huge parts are in the hands of Socialist states like China, the USSR existed for a large part of the period post WW2. And you have a patch work of totalitarian one party states and theocracies to boot.

    So the blame for people dying from poverty and disease is shared.

    Also many of the millions of deaths in South East Asia, Central America and the Middle East were caused by Communists.

  17. #17197
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Modern, liberal, "democratic" society is absolutely on the hook for ongoing deaths due to poverty.

    I think it's fair to blame the British for the way they treated India, given that their genocidal reign there didn't end until the 1940s.

    Germany and Japan were both crushed for their actions, but at least they have the good sense to feel ashamed of what they did. They've been fairly well behaved since then.

    The United States has political continuity all the way back to the days of the Atlantic slave trade and Native American genocides, and is directly responsible for millions of deaths in Southeast Asia, Central America, and the Middle East over the past 125 years.

    The "modern era" begins in the early 1600s. I think anything since then is fair game, given the continuity of political and economic systems between now and then.
    So punishing children for what their parents did is OK?
    meh

  18. #17198
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Are you talking about the american healthcare system ?
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  19. #17199
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    So the capitalist world killed over 500 years what Mao killed in 30 years.

    You cannot assign 20 million dead due to poverty and disease just to capitalism because capitalism does not control the planet. Huge parts are in the hands of Socialist states like China, the USSR existed for a large part of the period post WW2. And you have a patch work of totalitarian one party states and theocracies to boot.

    So the blame for people dying from poverty and disease is shared.

    Also many of the millions of deaths in South East Asia, Central America and the Middle East were caused by Communists.
    Holy shit, you've finally gotten to the point I've been trying to make! Blaming any of this on one ideology or the other is stupid! "Hurr durr communism killed 100 million!!" is a stupid argument because "Hurr durr capitalism killed 100 million!!" is also a stupid argument.

    Human malice and indifference—not ideology—kills people. So, in arguing about policy for the future, let's not resort to backwards-facing indictments that can apply equally to whatever ideology your personal convictions are opposed to. It's circular, useless, and prevents one from addressing issues that are actually facing the world today.

    Instead, let's talk about how to use some of the good things that have come out of the past 400 years of ideological conflict (things like the democratic republic) to make sure that human malice and indifference don't result in future genocides, and to help us cope with the enormous disruption to human society that climate change will unleash.

    I'm not a fucking revolutionary. I'm not an absolutist, at all. While I believe that we'd be better off in a society where the defaults were collective ownership and cooperation rather than private ownership and competition, I also believe the proper mechanism for changing those defaults is education and electoral politics, not revolutionary upheaval enforced at gunpoint.

    Also, these ideals (collective/cooperative vs private/competitive) are not mutually exclusive, as any survey of societies will tell you. The most successful societies have examples of both paradigms, though one paradigm is always dominant. But when that paradigm becomes nearly exclusive or universal, you're fucked, and that's what we're dealing with now in the West. A return to balance, even if it's a capitalist-dominant balance, requires advocacy for the other side.

    Attempts to derail that advocacy by saying "Hurr but that ideology killed people!" are counterproductive given that there are no clean hands in history. All younaccompish is setting off a useless circle of "Nuh uh, youre more evil!" rather than attempting to solve the fucking problems.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 8 2017 at 05:00:46 PM.

  20. #17200
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Modern, liberal, "democratic" society is absolutely on the hook for ongoing deaths due to poverty.

    I think it's fair to blame the British for the way they treated India, given that their genocidal reign there didn't end until the 1940s.

    Germany and Japan were both crushed for their actions, but at least they have the good sense to feel ashamed of what they did. They've been fairly well behaved since then.

    The United States has political continuity all the way back to the days of the Atlantic slave trade and Native American genocides, and is directly responsible for millions of deaths in Southeast Asia, Central America, and the Middle East over the past 125 years.

    The "modern era" begins in the early 1600s. I think anything since then is fair game, given the continuity of political and economic systems between now and then.
    So punishing children for what their parents did is OK?
    Who is saying anything about anyone being "punished?"

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