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  1. #17481
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    Fascism is where targeted groups get sent to camp, while communism is where it will happen at random.
    I have you on ignore but clicked to see your post.

    This is actually well said and you deserve some credit for that.

    Now back to the ignore pit with you. Nobody sees your posts unless you get quoted anyway.
    Ah yes the structural imperative of gulags in leftist thinking is universal and well founded.
    This is true, gulags are not a requirement.

    Sometimes you go for re-education camps.

    Sometimes you go for political prisons or mental hospitals.

    Or you just skip the imprisonment and just apply a bullet to the back of the neck.

  2. #17482
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Or you eschew vertical organisation and unjustified hierarchies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  3. #17483
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.

  4. #17484
    Rakshasa The Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Or you eschew vertical organisation and unjustified hierarchies.
    When everyone must gain equitable outcome you cannot have a population with variances.

    You can improve people by changing the environment, but not the biology, so those who are naturally more intelligent and conscientious get sent to the gulags to keep outcomes equitable.
    Are you an engineer? -- Quack

  5. #17485
    spitroast's Avatar
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    New AI can guess whether you're gay or straight from a photograph

    It would never be abused and Russia would have no interest in this

  6. #17486
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitroast View Post
    New AI can guess whether you're gay or straight from a photograph

    It would never be abused and Russia would have no interest in this
    And what are #1 and #2 out of interest?

  7. #17487
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Or you eschew vertical organisation and unjustified hierarchies.
    The problem is, what happens when several of your "horizontal" socio-political units chooses voluntarily to merge and vertically organise?

    GULAGS!

  8. #17488
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  9. #17489
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Your peaceful Spanish collectivists murdered around 100,000 people and would have killed many more had they won. Even the anarchists in Catalonia killed around 10,000. The Zapatista have sacked public property and clashed with police and the army but given how drug cartels and the Zapatista are so hard to tell apart who knows if people in Chiapas are being murdered over politics or drugs.

    How about FARC, they never ..... on wait.

    Sports clubs are voluntary organizations, not some revolutionary force seizing the reigns of power and dealing with those opposed to their takeover, so the analogy is frankly insane. Plus they tend to have hierarchical management structures anyway.

    Just be honest and state that the mortar of the peoples' socialist paradise will be made from the bones of class enemies.

  10. #17490
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    if a system can't survive interference, it's fucking useless and doomed.

  11. #17491
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    if a system can't survive interference, it's fucking useless and doomed.
    When the Martians make planetfall I hope you remember this post

  12. #17492
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitroast View Post
    New AI can guess whether you're gay or straight from a photograph

    It would never be abused and Russia would have no interest in this
    Not quite

    >The 91% accuracy rate only applies when one of the two men whose images are shown is known to be gay. Outside the lab the accuracy rate would be much lower.

  13. #17493
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Your peaceful Spanish collectivists murdered around 100,000 people and would have killed many more had they won. Even the anarchists in Catalonia killed around 10,000. The Zapatista have sacked public property and clashed with police and the army but given how drug cartels and the Zapatista are so hard to tell apart who knows if people in Chiapas are being murdered over politics or drugs.

    How about FARC, they never ..... on wait.

    Sports clubs are voluntary organizations, not some revolutionary force seizing the reigns of power and dealing with those opposed to their takeover, so the analogy is frankly insane. Plus they tend to have hierarchical management structures anyway.

    Just be honest and state that the mortar of the peoples' socialist paradise will be made from the bones of class enemies.
    Why are we still complaining about the violent imposition of ideology? Haven't we established that all ideologies do this as they struggle to rise to primacy? Or are we just going to ignore the entire political and economic history of the 19th century? Do all those Irish and Indians who starved to death while forced to remain net-exporters of food by British business interests get any absolution as victims of capitalism, or was that just good old voluntary association and we shouldn't care? Or the Filipinos? Or the Africans? Or the Chinese? Or even the working classes of Western Europe and America, who were killed by the cartload in factories and mills?

    Not that things were all that different in the 20th century... https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html And don't even get me started on how the west has treated the Middle East and its oil... or Vietnam, or even the modern hyperincarceratory police state. You know the US has more people in prison, as a share of its population, than the USSR did at the height of Stalinism?

    So tell me, is political violence ever justified? Or is revolution inherently immoral because it leads to violence? Or is it just that violence that furthers captalism is acceptable, because capitalism is good, whereas violence in furtherance of socialism is unacceptable, because socialism is evil? Or is it just that we don't promote understanding of the violent upheavals that ushered in the glorious era of the "free market", and so we have no understanding of the motivation behind violence done in the name of socialism?

    You can indict 20th century communism for violence all you want, but you don't get to handwave or brush under the carpet the hundreds of millions of deaths that occurred during capitalism's struggle for ideological dominance by saying "Hurr that's just business!"

    It's not business. It's deliberate fucking murder, done for no other reason than profit.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 8 2017 at 02:17:09 PM.

  14. #17494
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    But then we aren't talking Social-Democrats here are we. We are talking Marxist based political Socialism, which has never been attempted without pulling people in the ground or into imprisonment.
    Your ignorance of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

    The collectivist movements during the Spanish Civil War managed fine until they were undermined by soviet backed leninists, the zapatistas are getting on better than most of Mexican society, there's a heap of voluntarist movements in nations abandoned by capital after the financial crash.

    There's countless examples even in western nations of horizontal organisation, have you ever been a member of a sports club?

    The obsession with vertical hierarchies is embedded in the bourgeoisie, everyone else just has to put up with it for the time being.
    Your peaceful Spanish collectivists murdered around 100,000 people and would have killed many more had they won. Even the anarchists in Catalonia killed around 10,000. The Zapatista have sacked public property and clashed with police and the army but given how drug cartels and the Zapatista are so hard to tell apart who knows if people in Chiapas are being murdered over politics or drugs.

    How about FARC, they never ..... on wait.

    Sports clubs are voluntary organizations, not some revolutionary force seizing the reigns of power and dealing with those opposed to their takeover, so the analogy is frankly insane. Plus they tend to have hierarchical management structures anyway.

    Just be honest and state that the mortar of the peoples' socialist paradise will be made from the bones of class enemies.
    Why are we still complaining about the violent imposition of ideology? Haven't we established that all ideologies do this as they struggle to rise to primacy? Or are we just going to ignore the entire political and economic history of the 19th century? Do all those Irish and Indians who starved to death while forced to remain net-exporters of food by British business interests get any absolution as victims of capitalism, or was that just good old voluntary association and we shouldn't care? Or the Filipinos? Or the Africans? Or the Chinese? Or even the working classes of Western Europe, who were killed by the cartload in factories and mills?

    Not that things were all that different in the 20th century... https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html And don't even get me started on how the west has treated the Middle East and its oil...

    So tell me, is political violence ever justified? Or is revolution inherently immoral because it leads to violence? Or is it just that violence that furthers captalism is acceptable, because capitalism is good, whereas violence in furtherance of socialism is unacceptable, because socialism is evil?

    You can indict 20th century communism for violence all you want, but you don't get to handwave or brush under the carpet the hundreds of millions of deaths that occurred during capitalism's struggle for ideological dominance by saying "Hurr that's just business!" It's not business. It's fucking murder.
    So lets summarize the Pro-Red argument:

    1. Real communism has never been tried. This time we'll do it right and horizontal and anarchic and Zapatista-like and stuff! Look at who I read, how could I be wrong! You must be too dumb to understand! (the Keck Intellectual Master-Red Position)

    2. Hey Capitalism killed people too, can't make an Omelette without shooting 50 million eggs in the backs of the eggy heads, and imprisoning 100 million other counter-revolutionary eggs for holding the wrong political beliefs, amirite? Getting to our preferred ends justify the typical means. (the Lach/Smuggo Whataboutism/Whats a Few dead Capitalists Defense).


    "Nothing left to do, but smile, smile, smile......" Robert Hunter, "He's Gone"
    "...we looked very closely at the matter and concluded that unfortunately arseholes also get to benefit from democratic freedoms." Andreas Geisel, Interior Affairs Senator, Germany


  15. #17495
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    We're also going to need some citations on that 100s of millions figure.

  16. #17496
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    We're also going to need some citations on that 100s of millions figure.
    Unlike our Reds, I'm happy to say it was pulled out of my ass as pure hyperbole.

    If you want to know how many people Communism has killed and imprisoned, I am sure you can find some informed estimates in any number of reputable books on the topic my friend.

    I would suggest a good starting point would be the works of Anne Applebaum or Tim Snyder (for the USSR). For other regimes you'll likely have to look at other authors.


    "Nothing left to do, but smile, smile, smile......" Robert Hunter, "He's Gone"
    "...we looked very closely at the matter and concluded that unfortunately arseholes also get to benefit from democratic freedoms." Andreas Geisel, Interior Affairs Senator, Germany


  17. #17497
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Pretty much this - Capitalism via colonialism killed a lot of people but no where near 100s of millions.

    Pretty much what I am annoyed by is the insistence of a particular branch of revolutionary political ideology that somehow they'll take power, smash the current system, then rebuild a new "perfect" system without filling a lot of body bags and camps.

    History has shown us time-and-time again that the signal-minded and ruthless application of power is always accompanied by slaughter.

    I just want honesty - we'll build a non-hierarchical socialist society and it will only require 10 million deaths, 15 million tops!
    Last edited by Maximillian; September 8 2017 at 02:24:19 PM.

  18. #17498
    Alistair's Avatar
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Maximillian again.


    "Nothing left to do, but smile, smile, smile......" Robert Hunter, "He's Gone"
    "...we looked very closely at the matter and concluded that unfortunately arseholes also get to benefit from democratic freedoms." Andreas Geisel, Interior Affairs Senator, Germany


  19. #17499
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    I know your 100s of millions was hyperbole, but I've heard that figure a few times out of our red friends, so again, some citations that capitalism has killed 100s of millions.

    I mean, I guess if we include Ghengis' lust for gold in the bucket of capitalism, anything is possible, but then words lose meaning.

  20. #17500
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Pretty much this - Capitalism via colonialism killed a lot of people but no where near 100s of millions.

    Pretty much what I am annoyed by is the insistence of a particular branch of revolutionary political ideology that somehow they'll take power, smash the current system, then rebuild a new "perfect" system without filling a lot of body bags and camps.

    History has shown us time-and-time again that the signal-minded and ruthless application of power is always accompanied by slaughter.

    I just want honesty - we'll build a non-hierarchical socialist society and it will only require 10 million deaths, 15 million tops!
    Let's see, the pre-Columbia population of the Americas was between 30 and 80 million, but I suppose you can technically say the first century or so was mercantilism, not capitalism. We can round down and say ~20 million dead, but that figure could well be closer to ~50 million.

    We've got ~60 million dead in British famines in India.

    ~10 million from the Atlantic slave trade.

    ~20 million from the various Nazi war crimes. A similar number for the Japanese.

    ~15 million from French colonialism in Africa.

    That's well over 100 million, and I'm only picking events that have nice clean 8 figure death tolls, ignoring the enormous number of six-and-seven figure events that have occurred in the last 400 years.

    And that leaves out the fact that, setting aside deliberate violence and conquest, about 20 million people a year still die, today, because of starvation, thirst, and lack of medicine. Not because we don't have adequate supply of these things, but because there's no "demand" for food and water and medicine in these "markets." That's 100 million every five years.

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