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Thread: Political Shots Fired Thread

  1. #19161

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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Can you give me a quote please?
    I have only skimmed it. I can't see him talking about programming abilities.
    Read it in full then, it's "only" 3,500 words. One of the Big Problems with the memo, and probably one of the core reasons he was fired, is he is exclusively talking about technical, hands-to-keyboard, headphones on coding. He has reduced the role of software engineer to the stereotype of the uber nerd conquering all before them with a few lines of code, and any attempt to alter that stereotype is a Left-biased, politically correct attack on his core Self.

    The reality, as any professional will tell you, is that people who see themselves as "programmers", who don't prioritise their soft skills, make fucking terrible engineers. We're building products, fundamentally, for people. We have to think and act like people. We have to interact and work with people. If his ideas had any merit (which they don't), then in the reality of engineering women with (in his words) their preference for social interaction, for empathy and for wide-ranging variety would be shitting on us poor men from a great height.

  2. #19162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Also pretty much all of the big IT companies who have emerged since the 1990s have been Asian or Indian, and you can be pretty sure they have Asian management.

    Most of the wests big IT companies formed in the 1950s to 1980s - often as offshoots of the military - and as a result their management has been pretty stagnate as it is dominated by long-term players who got on board in the early years.

    The days when you joined a company at the bottom and worked your way up to CEO are gone, so if you want to sit at the board table you either need a shitload of cash to buy in as an investor or you need to build your own company from scratch and get big - and most fail.

    And none of that is very "family friendly" either. That is one of the reason so many women go into education or health here in Oz - you can structure your career around having kids.
    Sorry but most of this just isn't true

  3. #19163
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Ah yes, pair programming, where the poor, nervous, anxious young woman can feel reassured by the strong alpha male sat next to her keeping her in check. Safe in the knowledge that her mistakes will be caught by her superior she will thrive into her new low-level delivery position*.

    *Because she's not suitable for management.
    wat
    That was a reply to root, expanding on what "maybe pair programming would help" actually means in the context of the full memo. He's not even subtle about it. The full statement was as follows:

    We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming
    and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how
    people-oriented certain roles at Google can be
    and we shouldn't deceive
    ourselves or students into thinking otherwise
    Google has a ridiculous burn rate on staff anyway. You either buy into the 'cult' and spend all you waking hours in the Google bubble, or you do what most do and GTFO as soon as you get enough experience for it to look good on your CV.

    Only the top few at Google enjoy the profits, the rest work long hours for shit pay all while trying to convince themselves that it is worth it.

  4. #19164
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Can you give me a quote please?
    I have only skimmed it. I can't see him talking about programming abilities.
    Read it in full then, it's "only" 3,500 words. One of the Big Problems with the memo, and probably one of the core reasons he was fired, is he is exclusively talking about technical, hands-to-keyboard, headphones on coding. He has reduced the role of software engineer to the stereotype of the uber nerd conquering all before them with a few lines of code, and any attempt to alter that stereotype is a Left-biased, politically correct attack on his core Self.

    The reality, as any professional will tell you, is that people who see themselves as "programmers", who don't prioritise their soft skills, make fucking terrible engineers. We're building products, fundamentally, for people. We have to think and act like people. We have to interact and work with people. If his ideas had any merit (which they don't), then in the reality of engineering women with (in his words) their preference for social interaction, for empathy and for wide-ranging variety would be shitting on us poor men from a great height.
    Yeah, the stereotype that programmers should just be code-monkeys with zero social agency has done a lot of harm

  5. #19165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Google has a ridiculous burn rate on staff anyway. You either buy into the 'cult' and spend all you waking hours in the Google bubble, or you do what most do and GTFO as soon as you get enough experience for it to look good on your CV.

    Only the top few at Google enjoy the profits, the rest work long hours for shit pay all while trying to convince themselves that it is worth it.
    Do you have any evidence for this? I'll be the first to tell you that Google can be toxic as all hell, but the idea that they've got high attrition or there are people on shit money is just laughable. They're still the most desirable and one of the highest paying companies in the world to work for. In the UK google staff earned £160,000 each on average in 2015. That's six times the median wage nationally.

  6. #19166

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Google has a ridiculous burn rate on staff anyway. You either buy into the 'cult' and spend all you waking hours in the Google bubble, or you do what most do and GTFO as soon as you get enough experience for it to look good on your CV.

    Only the top few at Google enjoy the profits, the rest work long hours for shit pay all while trying to convince themselves that it is worth it.
    Do you have any evidence for this? I'll be the first to tell you that Google can be toxic as all hell, but the idea that they've got high attrition or there are people on shit money is just laughable. They're still the most desirable and one of the highest paying companies in the world to work for. In the UK google staff earned £160,000 each on average in 2015. That's six times the median wage nationally.
    Whats the median UK google staff wage?

  7. #19167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Whats the median UK google staff wage?
    Globally it's $141k, they don't publish the number at a national level but I'd expect it to be higher still here as the UK doesn't have much overhead.

  8. #19168

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    So its about 3.8 times the UK median for full-time employees.

    Still decent.

  9. #19169
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    The bit where he talks about positive discrimination, he effectively states that women in IT were being hired based on being women rather than their ability, which is a pretty offensive thing to imply about your co-workers.
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    One of the Big Problems with the memo, and probably one of the core reasons he was fired, is he is exclusively talking about technical, hands-to-keyboard, headphones on coding. He has reduced the role of software engineer to the stereotype of the uber nerd conquering all before them with a few lines of code, and any attempt to alter that stereotype is a Left-biased, politically correct attack on his core Self.
    Thanks for the reply.
    I have to think about it a bit more.
    The Rapier is my love boat
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  10. #19170
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    The most oppressed group of people in the world is the straight, white, middle-to-upper class, pro-weed conservative male gamer.

  11. #19171
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Do you disagree with "Women on average show a higher interest in people"?
    Yes I disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #19172
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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    The bit where he talks about positive discrimination, he effectively states that women in IT were being hired based on being women rather than their ability, which is a pretty offensive thing to imply about your co-workers.
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    One of the Big Problems with the memo, and probably one of the core reasons he was fired, is he is exclusively talking about technical, hands-to-keyboard, headphones on coding. He has reduced the role of software engineer to the stereotype of the uber nerd conquering all before them with a few lines of code, and any attempt to alter that stereotype is a Left-biased, politically correct attack on his core Self.
    Thanks for the reply.
    I have to think about it a bit more.
    Elmicker phrased it quite well.

    My concern re: the memo is that he first posits general traits that differ between XX and XY, "on average". He then goes on to reason that on basis of those phenomena, we should draw some conclusions about gender affecting performance in IT careers. First, the IT career individuals are certainly not average representatives of their gender (neither are any individuals in fields requiring high education), and you can't really properly draw conclusions on basis of that. Second, he posits that there are differences between genders, but as he obviously is not a scientist, he does not report the effect sizes nor understand how minuscule they are.

    His reasoning is in many ways circular: he states that "treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)", but still draws conclusions from population studies when it comes to gender and argues for superior performance of males due to these qualities on average. After stating his need for treating people as individuals, he nevertheless requests safety for his group (conservatives), and states that "In highly progressive environments, conservatives are a minority that feel like they need to stay in the closet to avoid open hostility. We should empower those with different ideologies to be able to express themselves".

    I mean, to me it just reads like "waaah, I'm a conservative male and I'm being oppressed". Had he looked into data, he could also have argued that as right-wing conservative values are generally linked with lower verbal IQ, conservatives should perhaps also be included in the disadvantaged group (Heaven, Ciarrochi & Leeson, 2011).*

    (*: this is shitty reasoning, don't do it.)

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  13. #19173
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Ah yes, pair programming, where the poor, nervous, anxious young woman can feel reassured by the strong alpha male sat next to her keeping her in check. Safe in the knowledge that her mistakes will be caught by her superior she will thrive into her new low-level delivery position*.

    *Because she's not suitable for management.
    On the other hand, it's an excellent way to dress down know-it-all little shits who think they know what's up, but who really don't know shit about shit. Much like I suspect a session with Mr Damone would go.
    meh

  14. #19174
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Ah yes, pair programming, where the poor, nervous, anxious young woman can feel reassured by the strong alpha male sat next to her keeping her in check. Safe in the knowledge that her mistakes will be caught by her superior she will thrive into her new low-level delivery position*.

    *Because she's not suitable for management.
    wat
    That was a reply to root, expanding on what "maybe pair programming would help" actually means in the context of the full memo. He's not even subtle about it. The full statement was as follows:

    We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming
    and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how
    people-oriented certain roles at Google can be
    and we shouldn't deceive
    ourselves or students into thinking otherwise
    Google has a ridiculous burn rate on staff anyway. You either buy into the 'cult' and spend all you waking hours in the Google bubble, or you do what most do and GTFO as soon as you get enough experience for it to look good on your CV.

    Only the top few at Google enjoy the profits, the rest work long hours for shit pay all while trying to convince themselves that it is worth it.
    No, that actually isn't how it works there at all.
    meh

  15. #19175
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    The most oppressed group of people in the world is the straight, white, middle-to-upper class, pro-weed conservative male gamer.
    M’reppy


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  16. #19176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post

    Only the top few at Google enjoy the profits, the rest work long hours for shit pay all while trying to convince themselves that it is worth it.
    Yeah, it's called the capitalist mode of production.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  17. #19177
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post

    Only the top few at Google enjoy the profits, the rest work long hours for shit pay all while trying to convince themselves that it is worth it.
    Yeah, it's called the capitalist mode of production.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  18. #19178
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comment...ction_lawsuit/

    Pretty interesting read, both the article and the thread

    and by interesting i mean there are a lot of men who believe that google are the leftist antichrists and their martyr did nothing wrong
    Last edited by XenosisMk4; January 10 2018 at 01:51:36 PM.

  19. #19179
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    more liek the duplicate mode of posting
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  20. #19180
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

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