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Thread: Political Shots Fired Thread

  1. #17141
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    Let me give you a second viewpoint.

    Are our actions completely deterministic or is there free will?

    Or in other words, if brain chemistry is what solely drives our actions and thoughts, then why even discuss things like "social phenomena"? If brain chemistry is affected by our actions and thoughts, then why argue that brain chemistry somehow represents the final truth?

    This reminds of logical positivism, a movement a century ago that posited that all discussion eventually could be decided by reducing the issue into mathematics and formal logic. Then Gödel showed that it does not work.
    Well obviously it's all a system. I have enough experience with systems to know that sometimes the links between variables are sometimes difficult to predict. Clearly brain chemistry is part of the final truth, it simply must be. How much and/or how the feedback loop between how outside stimuli affect brain chemistry doesn't seem particularly well understood.

  2. #17142
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    What is this fucking amateur hour?

  3. #17143
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    Let me give you a second viewpoint.

    Are our actions completely deterministic or is there free will?

    Or in other words, if brain chemistry is what solely drives our actions and thoughts, then why even discuss things like "social phenomena"? If brain chemistry is affected by our actions and thoughts, then why argue that brain chemistry somehow represents the final truth?

    This reminds of logical positivism, a movement a century ago that posited that all discussion eventually could be decided by reducing the issue into mathematics and formal logic. Then Gödel showed that it does not work.
    Well obviously it's all a system. I have enough experience with systems to know that sometimes the links between variables are sometimes difficult to predict. Clearly brain chemistry is part of the final truth, it simply must be. How much and/or how the feedback loop between how outside stimuli affect brain chemistry doesn't seem particularly well understood.
    That's exactly it.

    So when someone asserts that sometimes they express their gender as a dude and other times a chick, is the correct response to go "cool mate, you do you and I'll support you in that!" or is it to go "YOU NEED TO PROVE THIS CURRENTLY UNPROVABLE THING TO ME USING SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES THAT DONT EXIST YET AND MAY NOT EVEN BE RELEVANT OR ELSE I WILL IGNORE YOUR PREFERENCES AND EVEN DENY YOUR RIGHT TO HAVE THEM, BECAUSE ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST "PANDERING" WHATEVER THAT MEANS IN THIS DUMB AS FUCK CONTEXT"
    Last edited by Lallante; September 7 2017 at 05:06:50 PM.

  4. #17144
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    Let me give you a second viewpoint.

    Are our actions completely deterministic or is there free will?

    Or in other words, if brain chemistry is what solely drives our actions and thoughts, then why even discuss things like "social phenomena"? If brain chemistry is affected by our actions and thoughts, then why argue that brain chemistry somehow represents the final truth?

    This reminds of logical positivism, a movement a century ago that posited that all discussion eventually could be decided by reducing the issue into mathematics and formal logic. Then Gödel showed that it does not work.
    You're simplyfying trying to argue it's either. In reality it's both. Believing that our actions and thoughts govern our brain chemistry completely is on the same level as believing that best treatment for clinical depression is telling people to stop being sad and useless, schizos to act normal etc.

  5. #17145
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    Let me give you a second viewpoint.

    Are our actions completely deterministic or is there free will?

    Or in other words, if brain chemistry is what solely drives our actions and thoughts, then why even discuss things like "social phenomena"? If brain chemistry is affected by our actions and thoughts, then why argue that brain chemistry somehow represents the final truth?

    This reminds of logical positivism, a movement a century ago that posited that all discussion eventually could be decided by reducing the issue into mathematics and formal logic. Then Gödel showed that it does not work.
    Well obviously it's all a system. I have enough experience with systems to know that sometimes the links between variables are sometimes difficult to predict. Clearly brain chemistry is part of the final truth, it simply must be. How much and/or how the feedback loop between how outside stimuli affect brain chemistry doesn't seem particularly well understood.
    That's exactly it.

    So when someone asserts that sometimes they express their gender as a dude and other times a chick, is the correct response to go "cool mate, you do you and I'll support you in that!" or is it to go "YOU NEED TO PROVE THIS CURRENTLY UNPROVABLE THING TO ME USING SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES THAT DONT EXIST YET AND MAY NOT EVEN BE RELEVANT OR ELSE I WILL IGNORE YOUR PREFERENCES BECAUSE ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST PANDERING"
    Quoting to see if lal is post editing a post
    I did, indeed.

  6. #17146
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    Let me give you a second viewpoint.

    Are our actions completely deterministic or is there free will?

    Or in other words, if brain chemistry is what solely drives our actions and thoughts, then why even discuss things like "social phenomena"? If brain chemistry is affected by our actions and thoughts, then why argue that brain chemistry somehow represents the final truth?

    This reminds of logical positivism, a movement a century ago that posited that all discussion eventually could be decided by reducing the issue into mathematics and formal logic. Then Gödel showed that it does not work.
    Well obviously it's all a system. I have enough experience with systems to know that sometimes the links between variables are sometimes difficult to predict. Clearly brain chemistry is part of the final truth, it simply must be. How much and/or how the feedback loop between how outside stimuli affect brain chemistry doesn't seem particularly well understood.
    That's exactly it.

    So when someone asserts that sometimes they express their gender as a dude and other times a chick, is the correct response to go "cool mate, you do you and I'll support you in that!" or is it to go "YOU NEED TO PROVE THIS CURRENTLY UNPROVABLE THING TO ME USING SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES THAT DONT EXIST YET AND MAY NOT EVEN BE RELEVANT OR ELSE I WILL IGNORE YOUR PREFERENCES AND EVEN DENY YOUR RIGHT TO HAVE THEM, BECAUSE ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST "PANDERING" WHATEVER THAT MEANS IN THIS DUMB AS FUCK CONTEXT"
    I'm pretty curious. Not to fix anything mind, but yeah. Discounting something because "tradition" seems very anti-scientific to me.
    meh

  7. #17147
    Steph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    What is this fucking amateur hour?
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Canadians are usually cooler.
    Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal

  8. #17148
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    quackbot crits gender discussion for over 9000

    it's super effective

  9. #17149
    Keckers's Avatar
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    If someone with a willy thinks they shouldn't have one and want to wear pretty dresses instead then let them.

    Now then, how do we stop the systemic exploitation of the labouring classes by those who own capital?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  10. #17150
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    If someone with a willy thinks they shouldn't have one and want to wear pretty dresses instead then let them.

    Now then, how do we stop the systemic exploitation of the labouring classes by those who own capital?
    Fabian Societies.

  11. #17151
    Keckers's Avatar
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    I really dislike fabians.

    Especially since their ridiculous universal basic income push and their abandonment of free access policies. And their obsession with hierarchy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #17152
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I really dislike fabians.

    Especially since their ridiculous universal basic income push and their abandonment of free access policies. And their obsession with hierarchy.
    By "free access policies" do you mean things like "healthcare free at the point of service" or free-access to the European single market, or something else?

  13. #17153
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I really dislike fabians.

    Especially since their ridiculous universal basic income push and their abandonment of free access policies. And their obsession with hierarchy.
    By "free access policies" do you mean things like "healthcare free at the point of service" or free-access to the European single market, or something else?
    I'm mean free at the point of access state provisioned services with ringfenced budgets. Not the bollocks of government paying profit seeking companies to provide services free at the point of access.

    Free at the point of access is a lousy term which hides the nuance and important differences between the motivating factors of those providing the service.

    Free access to the single market is whole different kettle of fish because it backs people into annoying ideological corners because there are so many grey areas associated with sprawling hierarchical bureaucracies. Thinking about it makes my head hurt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  14. #17154
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    what does that have to do with Political Correctness comrade

  15. #17155
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    what does that have to do with Political Correctness comrade
    It's political and I'm always correct.

    It's more interesting than scatter gun virtue signalling too, even if that does bait out retarded fringe views every now and then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  16. #17156
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    what does that have to do with Political Correctness comrade
    It's political and I'm always correct.

    It's more interesting than scatter gun virtue signalling too, even if that does bait out retarded fringe views every now and then.
    virtue signalling isn't real comrade

  17. #17157
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    skipped 5 pages of this, imagine i didn't miss anything important.

  18. #17158
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    but this thread has been the one constant source of entertainment over the last weeks matey.

    Duck roleplaying a full on fascist for an afternoon because lallante called him right wing made my afternoon at work.
    And it only got better, including his farcial fuck Queensbury rules, we'll do it Manc style Magnum Postus Opus Bannus Weekus.

    What a glorious day of posting scenes for failheap incorporated
    Last edited by Stoffl; September 7 2017 at 10:06:45 PM.
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  19. #17159
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    what does that have to do with Political Correctness comrade
    I'm always correct.

    heh

  20. #17160

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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    skipped ever posting or reading FHC, imagine i didn't miss anything important.
    FYP.




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