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Thread: Political Shots Fired Thread

  1. #17121
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    The irony of a lawyer arguing socio-biology with a socio-biologist. I have the textbook personally signed by Edward O Wilson to prove it!

    Also my real name isn't Maximillian, it is just my preferred pronoun.

    I have never ruled out the possibility that some forms of gender dysphoria exist that are caused by specific mental problems like bi-polar disorders. That then raises a whole new set of issues as to whether we should bolster or dissuade the delusions of the mentally ill.
    Replace "gender dysphoria" with "homosexuality" and you would be in good company in the late 19th century.
    Your need to resort to insult merely reveals your lack of argument.
    I have a sensation that you have a some sort of need to apply biological concepts to sociopsychological phenomena and in general, attaching labels to those phenomena. Why?

    As a psychologist, I have little to no use to labels such as "depression", "gender dysphoria", or whatever you may have. ICD-10, where many of those stem from, is just a classification manual, not a list on what "states" actually exist.

    A biological example would be that ALS, Parkinson's, and AD might actually just be manifestations of the same underlying phenomena, but we still label people by them having "Altzheimer's" or "Parkinson's". In similar vein, we have (to use your terms) "male", "female", and "trans". But that does not mean that that's a proper description of reality.

    Just like someone with a depression, with probably a unique set of circumstances that have led to that state (but with some common underlying factors with others who have the same label), it'd be really weird to label all the experiences into just "male", "female", and "trans", don't you agree? Why would you need to assign all manifestations under those labels only? Would it not be more useful just to describe their experience / state and use labels only if there's some sort of need to make statistics (for example, how many patients had "depression" and how many "anxiety disorder", for example) or if the label gives them some benefit (person gets R00.0 if he has tachycardia, so he may be eligible for sick leave or certain benefits etc)?

    If you are worried about the generally used stereotype of tumblr personae who state that they are "genderfuild XYZ with PQR headmates", wouldn't it be fine just to say "fine, but what is the reason you need to use those labels to describe yourself"? And if using those descriptions of themselves is not harmful to them or others (a rule of thumb of psychologists, mind you), why would you go denying their experience is incorrect? What does denying their option to describe their experience by their own terms and concepts serve?

    On the other hand, if you are worried about gender pronouns, why not give up on them altogether? I mean, my native language (Finnish) doesn't have them and I struggle even with he/she and wonder why the hell is everyone so obsessed with gender in Indo European languages.
    TIL i shouldt have been told i had depression, but that i was mood fluent
    There's a reason Gender Dysphoria isn't listed as a mental illness in the DSM V anymore

  2. #17122
    Smuggo
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    So what indeed are the "correct" terms that all right thinking people should be using? I hope one of our virtuous posters can help me to be a better person.

    Chick with a dick? Tranny? Shemale? Gender bender?

    It's all so confusing.

  3. #17123
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Low effort

    Go back to driving whilst stoned mate, you're better at it than baiting (allegedly)

  4. #17124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post

    What you are saying is correct. I did a double degree in Biology and Sociology but that does not make me a psychologist. But the same token you obviously have a degree in psychology I assume and not biology.

    Hence we always give preference to our field of training.

    You are looking at the mind. The mind is distinctly different from yet connected to physical biology. I have stated again and again that I suspect that "fluidity" is a mental state and not a biological state. The question then is fluidity a normal mental state or a manifestation of other mental issues?

    I am genuinely curious.
    Yes, my degrees are from telecommunications engineering and psychology, I do mostly clinical psychology and cognitive neuroscience. And thanks for well-written posts, it's interesting to see another way to look into this.

    That being said, I think I see where you are coming from and do see that the way you approach the issues is in a way, entirely reasonable - I'm just not certain whether it's the correct one for the phenomenon, but like you, I'm happy to be proven wrong. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on the gender fluidity issue, I'm just stating a psychological viewpoint, take from it what you will and with a grain of salt.

    From a psychological viewpoint it's less of an issue whether the state is biological or mental (why not both?). The question of "normality" is less relevant as well, as psychologists' aim is not to do harm and our field has done quite a bit of harm by, for example, collaborating to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. In a way, normality is not really relevant but it's mostly a question of whether being genderfluid is harmful for the person (if they themselves see it as an issue OR there's a referral by a psychiatrist or another MD that suggest that the person is dangerous to themselves or others). If not, then the psychologists' ethics state that whatever the person considers is more or less fine and dandy.

    I kind of also think that you approach this issue by wondering what is true in scientific sense, or what kind of states exist in the world. But could there not be a world of true facts and a separate world of personal experiences, and we might never be able to describe the latter fully by relying on "true facts" only. Genderfluidity might fall into the realm of personal experiences and trying to look for proof in the sense you like might be futile?

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  5. #17125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    So what indeed are the "correct" terms that all right thinking people should be using? I hope one of our virtuous posters can help me to be a better person.

    Chick with a dick? Tranny? Shemale? Gender bender?

    It's all so confusing.
    Why do you need one? Wouldn't "person" suffice?

    Genuine question. Why do you want to classify the individual by some way?

    I know, we seem to have a biological basis to assign the person's sex (Maximillian can probably even cite a source) and I remember personally how my brain went into overdrive to make the classification the first time I met a person who had corrected their sex. But if you get past that, why do you need a label?

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  6. #17126
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    So what indeed are the "correct" terms that all right thinking people should be using? I hope one of our virtuous posters can help me to be a better person.

    Chick with a dick? Tranny? Shemale? Gender bender?

    It's all so confusing.
    Why do you need one? Wouldn't "person" suffice?

    Genuine question. Why do you want to classify the individual by some way?

    I know, we seem to have a biological basis to assign the person's sex (Maximillian can probably even cite a source) and I remember personally how my brain went into overdrive to make the classification the first time I met a person who had corrected their sex. But if you get past that, why do you need a label?
    I don't, it's them who seem to be obsessing with how stuff is labled and using the "correct" term.

  7. #17127
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    I'd just ignore smuggo now to be honest, he's gone into full turbosperge mode this week

  8. #17128
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post

    What you are saying is correct. I did a double degree in Biology and Sociology but that does not make me a psychologist. But the same token you obviously have a degree in psychology I assume and not biology.

    Hence we always give preference to our field of training.

    You are looking at the mind. The mind is distinctly different from yet connected to physical biology. I have stated again and again that I suspect that "fluidity" is a mental state and not a biological state. The question then is fluidity a normal mental state or a manifestation of other mental issues?

    I am genuinely curious.
    Yes, my degrees are from telecommunications engineering and psychology, I do mostly clinical psychology and cognitive neuroscience. And thanks for well-written posts, it's interesting to see another way to look into this.

    That being said, I think I see where you are coming from and do see that the way you approach the issues is in a way, entirely reasonable - I'm just not certain whether it's the correct one for the phenomenon, but like you, I'm happy to be proven wrong. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on the gender fluidity issue, I'm just stating a psychological viewpoint, take from it what you will and with a grain of salt.

    From a psychological viewpoint it's less of an issue whether the state is biological or mental (why not both?). The question of "normality" is less relevant as well, as psychologists' aim is not to do harm and our field has done quite a bit of harm by, for example, collaborating to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. In a way, normality is not really relevant but it's mostly a question of whether being genderfluid is harmful for the person (if they themselves see it as an issue OR there's a referral by a psychiatrist or another MD that suggest that the person is dangerous to themselves or others). If not, then the psychologists' ethics state that whatever the person considers is more or less fine and dandy.

    I kind of also think that you approach this issue by wondering what is true in scientific sense, or what kind of states exist in the world. But could there not be a world of true facts and a separate world of personal experiences, and we might never be able to describe the latter fully by relying on "true facts" only. Genderfluidity might fall into the realm of personal experiences and trying to look for proof in the sense you like might be futile?
    Thanks for a good response.

    The whole issue of self, how we individually perceive the world, and how we rationalize what we see are fascinating subjects on the current edge of neuroscience.

    For example I have had really bad eyesight since birth but literally did not realize it until I tried to get my drivers license. I simply assumed that everyone saw the world in the same blurry way I did.

    My concern is that in looking at the research into fluidity the issues of suicide, self-harm and other serious mental health problems came up time and time again. Given the biological factors on how sex hormones effect the development of the brain from the womb to adulthood it is probable that part of it can be explained by neurological disorders caused by being intersex.

    I am sure you have witnessed some of the delusional states that disassociate and bio- polar people can display. Can we accept personal testimony as being accurate? Or does accuracy simply not matter/apply?
    Last edited by Maximillian; September 7 2017 at 01:58:18 PM.

  9. #17129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Thanks for a good response.

    The whole issue of self, how we individually perceive the world, and how we rationalize what we see are fascinating subjects on the current edge of neuroscience.

    For example I have had really bad eyesight since birth but literally did not realize it until I tried to get my drivers license. I simply assumed that everyone saw the world in the same blurry way I did.

    My concern is that in looking at the research into fluidity the issues of suicide, self-harm and other serious mental health problems came up time and time again. Given the biological factors on how sex hormones effect the development of the brain from the womb to adulthood it is probable that part of it can be explained by neurological disorders caused by being intersex.

    I am sure you have witnessed some of the delusional states that disassociate and bio- polar people can display. Can we accept personal testimony as being accurate? Or does accuracy simply not matter/apply?
    Sorry, I'm cutting a lot of quotes out to save space.

    I agree with the concern you raise - in general, all non-heterosexual orientations suffer from a lot of mental issues. And you also raise a second valid point, which I think is highly relevant: many intersex individuals seem to dislike the required psychological assessment prior to sex correction operations but I think it's highly important to have the assessment just to rule out possible delusional states. In those cases, again, "don't do harm"; I would not like to be the one who assesses whether the need for sex correction arises from possible dissociative state or whether the dissociative state arises from physical sex not matching the experienced sex.

    But possible dissociative or bipolar disorders notwithstanding, I would think that personal testimony might be the most accurate we can actually get. I wonder how I would even start testing the accuracy or validity of one's personal testimony? (I'm sure someone would then reply that "then I identify as an attack helicopter" but I think we can agree that it's a silly strawman.)

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  10. #17130
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    people who post the helicopter copypasta need to be thrown out of an actual helicopter tbh

  11. #17131
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Thanks for a good response.

    The whole issue of self, how we individually perceive the world, and how we rationalize what we see are fascinating subjects on the current edge of neuroscience.

    For example I have had really bad eyesight since birth but literally did not realize it until I tried to get my drivers license. I simply assumed that everyone saw the world in the same blurry way I did.

    My concern is that in looking at the research into fluidity the issues of suicide, self-harm and other serious mental health problems came up time and time again. Given the biological factors on how sex hormones effect the development of the brain from the womb to adulthood it is probable that part of it can be explained by neurological disorders caused by being intersex.

    I am sure you have witnessed some of the delusional states that disassociate and bio- polar people can display. Can we accept personal testimony as being accurate? Or does accuracy simply not matter/apply?
    Sorry, I'm cutting a lot of quotes out to save space.

    I agree with the concern you raise - in general, all non-heterosexual orientations suffer from a lot of mental issues. And you also raise a second valid point, which I think is highly relevant: many intersex individuals seem to dislike the required psychological assessment prior to sex correction operations but I think it's highly important to have the assessment just to rule out possible delusional states. In those cases, again, "don't do harm"; I would not like to be the one who assesses whether the need for sex correction arises from possible dissociative state or whether the dissociative state arises from physical sex not matching the experienced sex.

    But possible dissociative or bipolar disorders notwithstanding, I would think that personal testimony might be the most accurate we can actually get. I wonder how I would even start testing the accuracy or validity of one's personal testimony? (I'm sure someone would then reply that "then I identify as an attack helicopter" but I think we can agree that it's a silly strawman.)
    The part I bolded is exactly why I am waiting/hoping for biological evidence to back up gender fluidity in the way we can back up many male-female trans, because we are asking psychologists to make life-changing decisions based on trying to assess potentially troubled people's state of mind, where getting it wrong could lead to someone ending their life.

    And when I here about people proposing intervention on people who are yet to achieve their adult brain I want to shout out "what is wrong with you!!!!"

    Anyway, thank you for a civil discussion.
    Last edited by Maximillian; September 7 2017 at 02:52:41 PM.

  12. #17132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Thanks for a good response.

    The whole issue of self, how we individually perceive the world, and how we rationalize what we see are fascinating subjects on the current edge of neuroscience.

    For example I have had really bad eyesight since birth but literally did not realize it until I tried to get my drivers license. I simply assumed that everyone saw the world in the same blurry way I did.

    My concern is that in looking at the research into fluidity the issues of suicide, self-harm and other serious mental health problems came up time and time again. Given the biological factors on how sex hormones effect the development of the brain from the womb to adulthood it is probable that part of it can be explained by neurological disorders caused by being intersex.

    I am sure you have witnessed some of the delusional states that disassociate and bio- polar people can display. Can we accept personal testimony as being accurate? Or does accuracy simply not matter/apply?
    Sorry, I'm cutting a lot of quotes out to save space.

    I agree with the concern you raise - in general, all non-heterosexual orientations suffer from a lot of mental issues. And you also raise a second valid point, which I think is highly relevant: many intersex individuals seem to dislike the required psychological assessment prior to sex correction operations but I think it's highly important to have the assessment just to rule out possible delusional states. In those cases, again, "don't do harm"; I would not like to be the one who assesses whether the need for sex correction arises from possible dissociative state or whether the dissociative state arises from physical sex not matching the experienced sex.

    But possible dissociative or bipolar disorders notwithstanding, I would think that personal testimony might be the most accurate we can actually get. I wonder how I would even start testing the accuracy or validity of one's personal testimony? (I'm sure someone would then reply that "then I identify as an attack helicopter" but I think we can agree that it's a silly strawman.)
    Sorry, did you miss a reply - I fail to understand what you mean with the bolded part? You may have to spell it out. =)

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  13. #17133
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Thanks for a good response.

    The whole issue of self, how we individually perceive the world, and how we rationalize what we see are fascinating subjects on the current edge of neuroscience.

    For example I have had really bad eyesight since birth but literally did not realize it until I tried to get my drivers license. I simply assumed that everyone saw the world in the same blurry way I did.

    My concern is that in looking at the research into fluidity the issues of suicide, self-harm and other serious mental health problems came up time and time again. Given the biological factors on how sex hormones effect the development of the brain from the womb to adulthood it is probable that part of it can be explained by neurological disorders caused by being intersex.

    I am sure you have witnessed some of the delusional states that disassociate and bio- polar people can display. Can we accept personal testimony as being accurate? Or does accuracy simply not matter/apply?
    Sorry, I'm cutting a lot of quotes out to save space.

    I agree with the concern you raise - in general, all non-heterosexual orientations suffer from a lot of mental issues. And you also raise a second valid point, which I think is highly relevant: many intersex individuals seem to dislike the required psychological assessment prior to sex correction operations but I think it's highly important to have the assessment just to rule out possible delusional states. In those cases, again, "don't do harm"; I would not like to be the one who assesses whether the need for sex correction arises from possible dissociative state or whether the dissociative state arises from physical sex not matching the experienced sex.

    But possible dissociative or bipolar disorders notwithstanding, I would think that personal testimony might be the most accurate we can actually get. I wonder how I would even start testing the accuracy or validity of one's personal testimony? (I'm sure someone would then reply that "then I identify as an attack helicopter" but I think we can agree that it's a silly strawman.)
    Sorry, did you miss a reply - I fail to understand what you mean with the bolded part? You may have to spell it out. =)
    Ok.

    As you put it psychologists need to access people seeking gender reassignment to determine if they are (a) gender dysmorphic, or (b) suffering from a dissociative state, or even (c) both.

    There are a number of trans male - females who can be determined by looking at the DNA. These individuals may have mental issues but you can show that they do have the wrong sex/gender combination.

    Beyond that you are basing what is obviously a life-changing decision - gender reassignment - on a psychological profile.

    All I was trying to say is that I actually wish that biology could give psychology a biological basis for making these decisions.

    I don't know about your country but people here have talked about giving "Trans Children" both hormone treatment and therapy and that fills me with horror as I know that the mind is still developing at that point.

  14. #17134
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    My attachment to Bentham Utilitarian Theory forces me down the path of Fabian Socialism.

  15. #17135
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    The irony of a lawyer arguing socio-biology with a socio-biologist. I have the textbook personally signed by Edward O Wilson to prove it!

    Also my real name isn't Maximillian, it is just my preferred pronoun.

    I have never ruled out the possibility that some forms of gender dysphoria exist that are caused by specific mental problems like bi-polar disorders. That then raises a whole new set of issues as to whether we should bolster or dissuade the delusions of the mentally ill.
    Replace "gender dysphoria" with "homosexuality" and you would be in good company in the late 19th century.
    Your need to resort to insult merely reveals your lack of argument.
    I have a sensation that you have a some sort of need to apply biological concepts to sociopsychological phenomena and in general, attaching labels to those phenomena. Why?

    As a psychologist, I have little to no use to labels such as "depression", "gender dysphoria", or whatever you may have. ICD-10, where many of those stem from, is just a classification manual, not a list on what "states" actually exist.

    A biological example would be that ALS, Parkinson's, and AD might actually just be manifestations of the same underlying phenomena, but we still label people by them having "Altzheimer's" or "Parkinson's". In similar vein, we have (to use your terms) "male", "female", and "trans". But that does not mean that that's a proper description of reality.

    Just like someone with a depression, with probably a unique set of circumstances that have led to that state (but with some common underlying factors with others who have the same label), it'd be really weird to label all the experiences into just "male", "female", and "trans", don't you agree? Why would you need to assign all manifestations under those labels only? Would it not be more useful just to describe their experience / state and use labels only if there's some sort of need to make statistics (for example, how many patients had "depression" and how many "anxiety disorder", for example) or if the label gives them some benefit (person gets R00.0 if he has tachycardia, so he may be eligible for sick leave or certain benefits etc)?

    If you are worried about the generally used stereotype of tumblr personae who state that they are "genderfuild XYZ with PQR headmates", wouldn't it be fine just to say "fine, but what is the reason you need to use those labels to describe yourself"? And if using those descriptions of themselves is not harmful to them or others (a rule of thumb of psychologists, mind you), why would you go denying their experience is incorrect? What does denying their option to describe their experience by their own terms and concepts serve?

    On the other hand, if you are worried about gender pronouns, why not give up on them altogether? I mean, my native language (Finnish) doesn't have them and I struggle even with he/she and wonder why the hell is everyone so obsessed with gender in Indo European languages.
    TIL i shouldt have been told i had depression, but that i was mood fluent
    There's a reason Gender Dysphoria isn't listed as a mental illness in the DSM V anymore
    Serious question: is gender dysphoria not a form of body dysphoria?
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
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  16. #17136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Thanks for a good response.

    The whole issue of self, how we individually perceive the world, and how we rationalize what we see are fascinating subjects on the current edge of neuroscience.

    For example I have had really bad eyesight since birth but literally did not realize it until I tried to get my drivers license. I simply assumed that everyone saw the world in the same blurry way I did.

    My concern is that in looking at the research into fluidity the issues of suicide, self-harm and other serious mental health problems came up time and time again. Given the biological factors on how sex hormones effect the development of the brain from the womb to adulthood it is probable that part of it can be explained by neurological disorders caused by being intersex.

    I am sure you have witnessed some of the delusional states that disassociate and bio- polar people can display. Can we accept personal testimony as being accurate? Or does accuracy simply not matter/apply?
    Sorry, I'm cutting a lot of quotes out to save space.

    I agree with the concern you raise - in general, all non-heterosexual orientations suffer from a lot of mental issues. And you also raise a second valid point, which I think is highly relevant: many intersex individuals seem to dislike the required psychological assessment prior to sex correction operations but I think it's highly important to have the assessment just to rule out possible delusional states. In those cases, again, "don't do harm"; I would not like to be the one who assesses whether the need for sex correction arises from possible dissociative state or whether the dissociative state arises from physical sex not matching the experienced sex.

    But possible dissociative or bipolar disorders notwithstanding, I would think that personal testimony might be the most accurate we can actually get. I wonder how I would even start testing the accuracy or validity of one's personal testimony? (I'm sure someone would then reply that "then I identify as an attack helicopter" but I think we can agree that it's a silly strawman.)
    Sorry, did you miss a reply - I fail to understand what you mean with the bolded part? You may have to spell it out. =)
    Ok.

    As you put it psychologists need to access people seeking gender reassignment to determine if they are (a) gender dysmorphic, or (b) suffering from a dissociative state, or even (c) both.

    There are a number of trans male - females who can be determined by looking at the DNA. These individuals may have mental issues but you can show that they do have the wrong sex/gender combination.

    Beyond that you are basing what is obviously a life-changing decision - gender reassignment - on a psychological profile.

    All I was trying to say is that I actually wish that biology could give psychology a biological basis for making these decisions.

    I don't know about your country but people here have talked about giving "Trans Children" both hormone treatment and therapy and that fills me with horror as I know that the mind is still developing at that point.
    Ah, thanks!

    As said, I'm not an expert, but I'm quite sure the assessment you are suggesting is something that's routinely done already. I'm reading on the procedure in Finland and the steps seem quite extensive and by no means limited to psychological assessment only - as said, I'm not an expert and please don't take my word as the final authority, I never intended to imply that for sex changes, psychological assessment is the sole assessment prior to the operation. I'm rather sure that for sex change operations, biology already gives a large contribution. And for many who are not cisgender, it might be beneficial as well, if they'd want to learn where their experience stems from.

    (edit: sorry if this sounds condescending, but if you're not familiar with clinical work in general: most assessments are done as teamwork, as most specialists realize the limitations of their approach. Before writing a neuropsychological assessment of a patient, I generally discuss with other specialists (physiotherapists, ergotherapists, speech therapists, and also sometimes interview family), because I know the phenomena I'm looking at are not simple dichotomies like looking at sex by assessing whether the DNA is XX of XY.)

    But we are somewhat deviating from the topic on the plurality of genders and deviating into biology and changing sex from one to another, do you notice? While not an expert, I would suppose that there are plenty of individuals who do not seek sex change treatments and we're sort of neglecting the whole topic now and moving more into the realm of sex (M/F) instead.

    Regarding children, I remain uncertain as well. I ponder whether it'd be reasonable to wait until onset of puberty at least. But to repeat myself, I think sex change is something different from gender, which the topic was before.

    Just to reiterate my point: I wonder how we would assess the validity of healthy people's perception of their gender except to take their own word for it given that a) it causes no harm to the individual itself and b) it does not harm others.
    Last edited by Timaios; September 7 2017 at 03:37:16 PM.

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  17. #17137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    meh

  19. #17139
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    When glorious Fascism takes over it will be simple. If you have a willy you're a bloke. If you have a fanny you're a woman. anything else is slave labour and beneath a gender assignment for official records.
    No one gives a shit about your dead philosophy.
    meh

  20. #17140
    Timaios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    I'm willing to bet cash money that in 5-10 years time all of you biological essentialists will quietly have disavowed (or more likely, remember only through a revisionist lens) your views on this topic.
    I have literally stated that if the evidence is present then I will change my POV. That is what being a scientist means, not denying the evidence.
    Oh yeah? What evidence would it take to persuade you that gender is a social construct not a biological extrapolation?
    Is brain chemistry a social construct or a biological one?

    I think this is what gets at the crux of this argument for most people.
    Let me give you a second viewpoint.

    Are our actions completely deterministic or is there free will?

    Or in other words, if brain chemistry is what solely drives our actions and thoughts, then why even discuss things like "social phenomena"? If brain chemistry is affected by our actions and thoughts, then why argue that brain chemistry somehow represents the final truth?

    This reminds of logical positivism, a movement a century ago that posited that all discussion eventually could be decided by reducing the issue into mathematics and formal logic. Then Gödel showed that it does not work.

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

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