No he said the Marines went to the SOST round, which is half true. There is still a lot of green tip floating around and being used still, since ammo production is still mostly geared towards the older rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
-O
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No he said the Marines went to the SOST round, which is half true. There is still a lot of green tip floating around and being used still, since ammo production is still mostly geared towards the older rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
-O
because DoD procurement is a corrupt racket at worst, a slow bureaucratic nightmare at best. SOF have gotten better ammo for themselves, but they are able to do so because they can bypass "economy of scale" problems (they don't have to place orders for several million rounds).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophichius
now that AF/PAK and Iraq are winding down, the military will probably forget the problem exists, and rediscover it when we start losing lives during the next war.
Know what else sucks? When you can't penetrate any personal armor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keorythe
You mean like with a 7.62x39mm rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by RazoR
0/10Quote:
Originally Posted by CastleBravoYou mean like with a 7.62x39mm rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by RazoR
This is not meant as a dreail but I want to understand why my coments seem to be offencive to some, perhaps you don't knwo what I'm talking about, though it seems wierd that you wouldn't.
About the massive bigotry - you guys think there isn't a uniquely US and predominantly southern mystical and moral authority attributed to those who are armed? Do you there aren't many people who believe that through being armed they derive moral authority, and thus those they would shoot necessarily become evil? And of those there aren't a vocal section who assert that holes must be big and stay big because the men they imagine they are going to shoot will be wreaking massive destruction with every second of consciousness?
It's a thing.
Watch anyone claiming to review a firearm on you tube, you hear about 'bad guys'; those guys who will be shot. You hear about being protected from harm by the carrying of the talismanic automatic. You will hear how the firearm will protect a family and stop bad guys.
You don't hear that it will have the same effect on family members, police officers or passers buy - the weapons are only ever acknowledged to stop evil men; and they are credited with protecting the goodly. Their owners and fans believe they are an instrument of good and righteousness, they are not simple machines, not enabling of everyone and anyone's will to harm - which is the objective truth.
You don't hear that armed men who are shot are still shot, that armed men are in fact not protected in any way from any harm. Some people believe that they can't be harmed if they are armed, they feel protected and they feel the protective aura extends to their relatives - the truth is armed men who are shot suffer the same injuries and have the same likely hood of dieing as unarmed men. There have been plenty of armed men die in war in police work and civilian life, that is an objective truth.
Am I critical of those people who hold firearms to be symbols of morality, of and of the wide acceptance of their delusions - yes I am. How does that make me a bigot?
Jesus Samp, ever since the thing with preaching about how piracy isn't theft, I've noticed you're way out in left field.
Guns are awesome and fun, but the people obsessed with them are disturbing because they're obsessed with a tool for killing other human beings. They have a propensity to dehumanize others and that's disturbing. Welcome to the human race. Most of us don't respect your life one bit.
But leave it there man... or hand out pamphlets on a street corner or something man.
Okay, you're either an amazing troll or staggeringly ignorant of the US. Possibly both. I'll bite anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
You don't have the first fucking idea what you're talking about. And you're being a smug, nationalist prick. Let's look at your framing for a second, shall we? "I'm from a civilized country and even I know...", which immediately frames the rest of the discussion as talking down to the rest of the 'uncivilized' people in the thread.
Then you go on to frame the actual question as one about "American mythos." linking it to the antebellum southern point of view, which is a significant sore spot to many folks still and bringing it up is a good way to start fights. FYI, if you're just ignorant and not trolling, with you being a non-US citizen my advice is: Just don't fucking talk about it. Ever. It's touchy and complicated.
And again, you're using hyperbole in place of reasoned discourse. Knock it the fuck off.Quote:
About the massive bigotry - you guys think there isn't a uniquely US and predominantly southern mystical and moral authority attributed to those who are armed? Do you there aren't many people who believe that through being armed they derive moral authority, and thus those they would shoot necessarily become evil? And of those there aren't a vocal section who assert that holes must be big and stay big because the men they imagine they are going to shoot will be wreaking massive destruction with every second of consciousness?
Amongst gun types there's a point of view that those who willfully choose to be ignorant of firearms are choosing to be willfully ignorant of self-defense. It's not a matter of 'moral authority' whatever the fuck that means, but one of education. If you know how to shoot, and how to select a firearm, you know how to defend yourself should the need arise. Fundamentally it is about preparation for bad scenarios.
The discussion about stopping power is a simple matter of pragmatism. Being from a 'civilized' country perhaps you aren't familiar with the doctrines regarding firearms use, but drawing a weapon is a measure of last resort. You draw when it becomes unavoidable that you will have to shoot, which means you draw only when your life or the life of another is at stake, which means that there is an immediate and pressing need for incapacitation.
Youtube is not a reliable source of information, and if you're relying on that for your views it's no wonder they're so far off the mark. Treating firearms as some sort of magic black doohickey is really more of what the anti-gun crowd is into.Quote:
It's a thing.
Watch anyone claiming to review a firearm on you tube, you hear about 'bad guys'; those guys who will be shot. You hear about being protected from harm by the carrying of the talismanic automatic. You will hear how the firearm will protect a family and stop bad guys.
As for the 'bad guys' terminology. It's pretty standard security practice. You discuss the threat as 'bad actors', 'hostiles' or 'bad guys' regardless of the particular environment, be it digital or physical security. It's a bit of nomenclature used since you don't actually know exactly who your threats will be. You can't say "well this gun will kill Fred the Rapist dead." because you don't honestly know if that's the threat it will be used against.
I'm sorry, what exactly is your point here? If it's that people don't note in every video "Oh by the way, this thing can kill innocent people too." It's because doing that would look, at minimum, sociopathic. It's an assumed fact that people watching will have basic firearms training and know about watching their line of fire if they ever do encounter a defensive situation. I've already addressed the mystic mumbo-jumbo you're inserting, but the short of it is: You're wrong. They don't view them as some sort of magic death machine.Quote:
You don't hear that it will have the same effect on family members, police officers or passers buy - the weapons are only ever acknowledged to stop evil men; and they are credited with protecting the goodly. Their owners and fans believe they are an instrument of good and righteousness, they are not simple machines, not enabling of everyone and anyone's will to harm - which is the objective truth.
Uh yes, guns aren't body armor. Duh. The point to a gun is to have the ability to return fire in a situation where your attackers are armed, and stop them before they can do more damage. They don't exude some forcefield to make the wearer invincible and again, anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.Quote:
You don't hear that armed men who are shot are still shot, that armed men are in fact not protected in any way from any harm. Some people believe that they can't be harmed if they are armed, they feel protected and they feel the protective aura extends to their relatives - the truth is armed men who are shot suffer the same injuries and have the same likely hood of dieing as unarmed men. There have been plenty of armed men die in war in police work and civilian life, that is an objective truth.
A pistol on the hip doesn't stop bullets, but it gives you a chance to respond if someone does open fire. A chance. Not a guarantee.
Oh it doesn't make you a bigot. Your casual dismissal of Americans as uncivilized southerners obsessed with guns makes you a bigot. The rest of your views just mean you're a poorly-informed bigot.Quote:
Am I critical of those people who hold firearms to be symbols of morality, of and of the wide acceptance of their delusions - yes I am. How does that make me a bigot?
Seriously, stop shitposting with deliberately inflammatory nationalist bullshit and we'll stop calling you a bigot. Simple as that.
-O
hook line and sinker
Basically what Ophi said.
I carry a gun not because it's makes me moral. Fuck, I couldn't give a single shit about morality. I carry a gun because when the shit hits the fan and I need to defend myself, I'll be able to. I don't care if the guy who breaks into my home wants bread or all my computer supplies, I'm going to shoot to kill if he threatens me, and not loose any sleep over it. It's got absolutely nothing to do with morality and everything to do with me wanting to continue living.
It has everything to do with "morality".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
morality =! mortality.Quote:
Originally Posted by F*** My Aunt RitaIt has everything to do with "morality".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
Morality references the "good" and "bad" actions or thoughts one can have.
Mortality references the ability to die.
*facepalm*Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
Aaand Cue has nicely demonstrated the end of the gun range that I stay away from.
Maybe it's just my upbringing, but I was always taught that while killing may be unavoidable it should never, ever be done lightly or without grave reason. "Defending my shit." isn't a good reason. "Defending my life or the lives of others." is.
I live in a castle doctrine state and I'd still clear the fuck out and call the cops if it was safe to do so rather than dumping ammunition into someone. Backing off and letting the pros handle it is always, always safer than confronting an intruder if you have the choice. Home defense guns are for when you have no other choice.
-O
Rereading that, I realize I phrased it wrong in my attempt to get my point across. No, I'm not going to shoot to protect my shit, I'm going to clear out and call the cops. I made the assumption my reader knew that I was saying in a defensive situation, which wasn't clearly stated. My fault. My point was, someone breaks into my house and threatens me, I don't care if they did it because they're in need of money for bread, or because they're a career criminal, I'm going to put my life above theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophichius*facepalm*Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
Aaand Cue has nicely demonstrated the end of the gun range that I stay away from.
Maybe it's just my upbringing, but I was always taught that while killing may be unavoidable it should never, ever be done lightly or without grave reason. "Defending my shit." isn't a good reason. "Defending my life or the lives of others." is.
I live in a castle doctrine state and I'd still clear the fuck out and call the cops if it was safe to do so rather than dumping ammunition into someone. Backing off and letting the pros handle it is always, always safer than confronting an intruder if you have the choice. Home defense guns are for when you have no other choice.
-O
Am I miss something or have you gone full retard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*morality =! mortality.Quote:
Originally Posted by F*** My Aunt RitaIt has everything to do with "morality".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
Morality references the "good" and "bad" actions or thoughts one can have.
Mortality references the ability to die.
Ok the civilized country remark - I don't defend, it was a half arsed troll. I'm on the Internet and every now and then it seems like a good idea to join in the idiom and I'm always called out on it. I should have said pursuit of peace through oppression is a measure of desperation, oft regarded as necessity but never preferable to willing participation in tolerant behaviour, if I was going to say anything at all. Sometimes I think that characterising my views as prejudiced and simplistic makes them easier for people to interact with. Some places I rant I'm told I 'would say that because I'm a communist' or whatever, and it's just an exercise in inserting some debate into at shouting match. This isn't such a place, a more grown up approach would clearly have been appropriate. It was a mistake, and it's obvious since you point it out that it colours the rest of what I said. Creidt to you for taking the trouble to read it and answer it anyway.
Now then...
Nationalist? No, I have no delusions about my country it's and failure to avoid everybody else's mistakes and ability to innovate unique and quintessentially British fuck-ups. I feel the safest prospect for justice and thus civilization in general is 'ever closer union'. Our traditional system of representation and co-operation under threat of royal arms has stopped working, becase everyone knows that HMQ will never intervien to stop our elected representatives fucking things up totaly. There needs to be a superior authority which is less accountable. Doing what the poeple want would be grand if the poeple wern't fucktards, but as it is national power (not just in my nation) needs checks it doesn't have. I support the development of a stronger European union.
Youtube: Youtube is a perfectly reliable source of information on the opinions of the people posting their opinions there. I'm not making this shit up it there in volume check it out.
I make no assertions that all Americans are anything, my ascertion is that faith, literal faith in the power of arms to decide moral issues is a uniquely American thing. It's American, American isn't it.
Just like Post imperial resentment based racism is AFAIK a uniquely British thing - doesn't mean it's all Britain is or it effects every person - it's is a part of British culture. It's British. British isn't it.
Something of or about a culture isn't the sum of that culture.
People who feel that gun has the power of elevating the carrier to an arbiter of justice and more responsible person - do exist, are happy to express those sentiments and are in my view loonies. When I say that, I say that - I don't think it has to be a national obsession to be important - minority views have through history exploded into majority views - they always need to be considered and understood.
And fine you know that guns don't protect from harm, great, good for you. I'm not arguing with you then am I? Plenty of people talk about (what is in fact an option to escalate a conflict to the ultimate degree), as being protected. When people say something which is untrue, and it is never challenged, it becomes dogma and it becomes believed.
You seem to have a sane view of the tactical options afforded by a fire-arm. Plenty of people don't, but evangelise their use.
Bad. Bad is a moral judgment. It evokes and requires an authority beyond the shooter. It may be in common use, but my question would be why? What bearing does your assessment of badness ever have on the decision to shoot someone? Some people will tell you shooting someone is acceptable, even mandated by a situation in which it precludes the possibility of the target doing harm. I'm not complaining about them. What I'm critical of is the decision making process which involves working out who's bad. You can tell me you'd have to be dumb not to understand that bad is shorthand for intended targets selected rationally, I'll tell you dumb exists and it's frequently armed.
This is a wider argument really, good and bad, these are necessary and useful short cuts to tell kids that for reasons to complex for them to understand, they must trust our judgment. But people don't see good and bad like that. People growup to believe in magic; good and evil, as real relevant forces in the behaviour of men. Bad guys. Good guys. Gods and Demons, justifying the harm they do, and condemning those they harm.
Simple instinctive irrational assessment of when and why to shoot people. (and do everything else but this argument is about gun use)
Believe in magic isn't an American thing; it's instinctive and natural and is hard to educate out, especially here where we don't try. Arming pretty much anyone who asks is an American thing, asking because you believe the federal government's rule is tenuous is, treading carefully so as not to agitate you, not as greater motivation in some states as others, and is a common theme among the group of people I am critical of. Which once again for the record, are the people specified, not everyone in the country.
Maybe I'm missing something? I read your post as you mistaking the word morality for mortality. Talking to Steph on AIM he seems to think it's straw man, but it doesn't read like that to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by F*** My Aunt RitaAm I miss something or have you gone full retard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*morality =! mortality.Quote:
Originally Posted by F*** My Aunt RitaIt has everything to do with "morality".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
Morality references the "good" and "bad" actions or thoughts one can have.
Mortality references the ability to die.
Actually, Youtube is a greatly reliable source of information of the opinions of people who believe in something so strongly they feel the need to tell someone. I believe in my own right to defend myself, and I spend a lot of time on guns, however I don't feel the drive to post my opinions on it. The loudest speakers tend to often be the most opinionated. Youtube is heavily influenced by the far reaching opinions, not the middle of the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
To which I'd argue that almost everyone who I've spoken to about carrying a weapon for defense DO understand and have a sane view of their tactical options(firearm or otherwise). There are some that don't, but not quite as many as you are expressing. In any group of people there are those who don't understand but think they do. That's just the fact of a large numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
Bad guy is the catch all for "person who I might have to shoot", however yes, dumb is often armed, which can often make them the "bad guy" who might need to be shot. The question of why is simple, what can you name someone who you're going to shoot? Let's ask then, who are we most likely to have to shoot? Rapists, murderers, armed thiefs, AKA in childish language, bad guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
Yes, you're right, there aren't people walking around who are inherently evil that we can tag as "bad guys" every glance we see them. If we could, crime would be pretty much gone. The fact is that people can make decisions that at the time, seems right, but when they step back and look, they understand why they made the wrong choice. At the time, that bastard who cut me off, needed to be shot, but looking at it after the fact, maybe I might have overreacted. As human beings, we make mistakes, and those mistakes have dire consequences. Only the truly uneducated or highly religous see magical good and bad. Maybe I'm assuming too much of my fellow man, but the people who I interact with every day seem to have a strong grasp on reality and as long as their emotions are kept in check, they have reasonable opinions and choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
Alright, that's cleared up then. To be fair, I did lay it on pretty thick in my reply, but I am so very, very tired of dealing with the stigma that being from the US now carries. It's really a bitch to deal with the 'dumb redneck American' stereotype constantly, and it's become a bit of a sore spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
I know I'm going to regret asking, but can you post a link to the most flagrant example you can find? I'd like to get a gauge of just what you're talking about.Quote:
Youtube: Youtube is a perfectly reliable source of information on the opinions of the people posting their opinions there. I'm not making this shit up it there in volume check it out.
Thankfully I've never encountered that particular belief. I hope I never will.Quote:
I make no assertions that all Americans are anything, my ascertion is that faith, literal faith in the power of arms to decide moral issues is a uniquely American thing. It's American, American isn't it.
I have to say, the fact that there are enough of those people that it's possible for an outside observer to believe that the US shooting community at large thinks like that worries me greatly.Quote:
People who feel that gun has the power of elevating the carrier to an arbiter of justice and more responsible person - do exist, are happy to express those sentiments and are in my view loonies. When I say that, I say that - I don't think it has to be a national obsession to be important - minority views have through history exploded into majority views - they always need to be considered and understood.
You're not arguing with me directly it seems, but you tarred the entire shooting community with the same brush when you asked your initial question. It's a mistake to think of the US shooting community (I use the term loosely, because 'group of people who all engage in at least one similar activity' is a bit of a mouthful.) as a single monolithic block. Broadly speaking, there's a cultural divide along military/police/civilian lines, then there's the target shooting, sport shooting, hunting, range-only, survivalist, militia (Militia movement is a big enough topic to fill another thread, TBH), etc. groups. There is a huge amount of diversity within the community itself, so trying to make any sweeping generalization about them is bound to fail.Quote:
And fine you know that guns don't protect from harm, great, good for you. I'm not arguing with you then am I? Plenty of people talk about (what is in fact an option to escalate a conflict to the ultimate degree), as being protected. When people say something which is untrue, and it is never challenged, it becomes dogma and it becomes believed.
You seem to have a sane view of the tactical options afforded by a fire-arm. Plenty of people don't, but evangelise their use.
So...you're saying you understand my point, but stupid people may not and therefore my point is invalid? I'm genuinely confused by what you're trying to say here.Quote:
Bad. Bad is a moral judgment. It evokes and requires an authority beyond the shooter. It may be in common use, but my question would be why? What bearing does your assessment of badness ever have on the decision to shoot someone? Some people will tell you shooting someone is acceptable, even mandated by a situation in which it precludes the possibility of the target doing harm. I'm not complaining about them. What I'm critical of is the decision making process which involves working out who's bad. You can tell me you'd have to be dumb not to understand that bad is shorthand for intended targets selected rationally, I'll tell you dumb exists and it's frequently armed.
Ah, you seem to have wandered on a bit of a tangent here. I'm just going to leave it at 'bad guys' is shop talk in the same way that a mechanic might say a part is 'bad' as slang for 'not working'. In the context it carries no moral judgement or weight.Quote:
This is a wider argument really, good and bad, these are necessary and useful short cuts to tell kids that for reasons to complex for them to understand, they must trust our judgment. But people don't see good and bad like that. People growup to believe in magic; good and evil, as real relevant forces in the behaviour of men. Bad guys. Good guys. Gods and Demons, justifying the harm they do, and condemning those they harm.
Simple instinctive irrational assessment of when and why to shoot people. (and do everything else but this argument is about gun use)
Believe in magic isn't an American thing; it's instinctive and natural and is hard to educate out, especially here where we don't try. Arming pretty much anyone who asks is an American thing, asking because you believe the federal government's rule is tenuous is, treading carefully so as not to agitate you, not as greater motivation in some states as others, and is a common theme among the group of people I am critical of. Which once again for the record, are the people specified, not everyone in the country.
Also, from the way you're talking, I suspect you've been watching militia videos. Militia people are crazy, full stop.
-O
Bollocks. Home defense guns are for your children to play with when you are out of the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophichius
...amidoingitrite? :p
Bollocks. Home defense guns are for your children to play with when you are out of the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophichius
...amidoingitrite? :p