Gun Thread (AK appreciation)

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Originally Posted by DracheK

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Originally Posted by F*** My Aunt Rita

Fucking nice. Was thinking of getting another .45acp.

Is that hole in the slide for venting?

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It looks like a ported slide to me. They are supposed to help manage recoil.

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Pretty sure it's just a lightening cut like on the Glock prac/tacs. Nothing in the specs mention a ported barrel, and on handguns (my G20C anyway) it's done in a V shape so you don't get goop on your front sight.
That said, we have one of the standard length XDm45's and it's fucking amazing. Can't recommend it highly enough.

So, looking at getting a new rifle. Something in a standard mil caliber with more punch than .223 (thinking .308), semi-auto, pretty modern (not a huge fan of the M1's). Anyone heard anything about the DSArms FAL's or the PTR91 HK91 clones? SCAR is sexy but expensive as hell.

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Originally Posted by dpidcoe

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Originally Posted by Cue1*

Birdshot is exactly what it's called, BIRD shot. It's for shooting birds. Even out of a 8g shotgun it's still just going to kill a tiny bird. When you've got an active home invader on the other end of that shotgun, birdshot is just going to piss him off, there's no penetration to be had from birdshot.

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Does that still apply if the target is close enough that the birdshot is still in the process of separating from the shot cup when it hits?

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#8 birdshot 3ft distance. 5in. of penetration with no obstructions or clothing. May stop or piss the guy off but hardly fatal. If any of that hits a rib or has to penetrate a jacket then the penetration goes down even further. Note: FBI determined that 18in of penetration in gelatin is needed to reach and completely perforate a vital organ. Gelatin is a uniform medium that simulates soft organ tissue but not thicker muscle, bone, or cartilage which will slow down the shot even more. Yes, you might kill someone with birdshot. The question is, are you willing to bet your life on it?
http://papercut.mercenariesguild.net...avy_dove_b.jpg

Below is are some images of guys hit with birdshot at 10yrds.

  Spoiler:

http://i55.tinypic.com/1fhgs0.jpg

  Spoiler:

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/r...GSW_To_Abd.jpg

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Alright, in 1997 or 1998 I was involved in a case of three yutes that broke into a house during the day. Homeowner hears them and confronts them in a hall. Shows them his shotgun, they don't leave. Racks the slide, they don't leave. They advance on him, he fires a "warning shot" to the side of one of them. This actually hits one of them. They keep coming towards him. He now fires again, hitting two of them. They have now decided he is serious and left. Fortunately, because after a quick trip to the ER to have their wounds cleaned they were being processed at a JDC. Lots of bandages and iodine, but if they had been set on fighting, it could have been a lot worse for the homeowner.

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Recently there was a case in Farmer's Branch or Carrollton in which two turds broke into a house. Husband and wife fighting off the invaders. Wife ends up with a shotgun (IIRC it actually was brought in with the aggressors) and shoots one of them. He not only doesn't stop, he continues advancing. She shoots him again and he is DRT. Birdshot. Yes, it stopped him. After two shots. Fortunately, there was only one firearm there and the other turd had already run off before the shotgun was brought into play by the homeowner.

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Individual shot 4 times with birdshot in a home invasion...and lived. Note the different locations of the hits from the owner under stress.
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...ner_fires.html

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But the injured suspect, recovering at Spectrum Health Butterworth hospital after being shot in the hand, buttocks and side, called the homeowner "trigger happy."

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Have been shot with bird shot twice crew checking in.

Although it was at longer ranges, anything that doesn't even break the skin at 30 feet isn't going to stop an invader.

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Originally Posted by Cue1*

Have been shot with bird shot twice crew checking in.

Although it was at longer ranges, anything that doesn't even break the skin at 30 feet isn't going to stop an invader.

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Rifle range I sometimes visit also has a skeet shooting range on the same facility, maybe 150 yards away, and some of the shot from the skeet range falls on the rifle firing line. Safety glasses are absolutely required, but otherwise it doesn't even sting.

One solution for this problem would be to load the chamber with birdshot, and the tube magazine with buck.
then you have an Escalation of Force procedure you follow that, if they live and decide to get all lawyer-ey on you, or the local Prosecutor hates your ass, might give you some leeway with a judge/jury.

biggest thing to help you would probably be range time. go take a defensive shotgun class that has you shoot under (controlled) stressful conditions. that way godforbid you have to blast someone, you will hopefully hit your target, and not anything else.

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Originally Posted by fffuuu

One solution for this problem would be to load the chamber with birdshot, and the tube magazine with buck.
then you have an Escalation of Force procedure you follow that, if they live and decide to get all lawyer-ey on you, or the local Prosecutor hates your ass, might give you some leeway with a judge/jury.

biggest thing to help you would probably be range time. go take a defensive shotgun class that has you shoot under (controlled) stressful conditions. that way godforbid you have to blast someone, you will hopefully hit your target, and not anything else.

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If you shoot you're meant to shoot to kill, no warning shots either off-target or using a lesser load. Less legal fuss when you kill somebody (within your right) then simply injuring them (within your right to self-defense).

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Originally Posted by Aea

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Originally Posted by fffuuu

One solution for this problem would be to load the chamber with birdshot, and the tube magazine with buck.
then you have an Escalation of Force procedure you follow that, if they live and decide to get all lawyer-ey on you, or the local Prosecutor hates your ass, might give you some leeway with a judge/jury.

biggest thing to help you would probably be range time. go take a defensive shotgun class that has you shoot under (controlled) stressful conditions. that way godforbid you have to blast someone, you will hopefully hit your target, and not anything else.

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If you shoot you're meant to shoot to kill, no warning shots either off-target or using a lesser load. Less legal fuss when you kill somebody (within your right) then simply injuring them (within your right to self-defense).

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This.

If you shoot someone and injure them, even if you had every right to do so, they're still alive to testify against you, which becomes a he said she said argument. If you kill them, there's no one to dispute your word. Assuming a castle state, if the body is in your home and the entry wound is not in the back, that's it. You won't even go down to the station.

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Originally Posted by Cue1*

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Originally Posted by Aea

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Originally Posted by fffuuu

One solution for this problem would be to load the chamber with birdshot, and the tube magazine with buck.
then you have an Escalation of Force procedure you follow that, if they live and decide to get all lawyer-ey on you, or the local Prosecutor hates your ass, might give you some leeway with a judge/jury.

biggest thing to help you would probably be range time. go take a defensive shotgun class that has you shoot under (controlled) stressful conditions. that way godforbid you have to blast someone, you will hopefully hit your target, and not anything else.

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If you shoot you're meant to shoot to kill, no warning shots either off-target or using a lesser load. Less legal fuss when you kill somebody (within your right) then simply injuring them (within your right to self-defense).

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This.

If you shoot someone and injure them, even if you had every right to do so, they're still alive to testify against you, which becomes a he said she said argument. If you kill them, there's no one to dispute your word. Assuming a castle state, if the body is in your home and the entry wound is not in the back, that's it. You won't even go down to the station.

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fair enough. but it would certainly ease my conscience giving the person the several seconds before the next round to decide to stop.

still srs about the training though. go take a class. preferentially one run by someone who knows what they are doing.

I still don't get why you can use a gun for home defence and not a taser. I understand that a state wants to ban tasers due to the dangers involved etc., but surely that'd be the more humane solution compared to shooting a gun?

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Originally Posted by Keorythe

*facts*

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Awesome, that's way better than the anecdotal evidence usually encountered in discussions about stopping power.

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Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Rifle range I sometimes visit also has a skeet shooting range on the same facility, maybe 150 yards away, and some of the shot from the skeet range falls on the rifle firing line. Safety glasses are absolutely required, but otherwise it doesn't even sting.

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Yeah, I've been hit by falling birdshot at a shotgun range before. The funny thing was that as far as we could tell, the wind was actually blowing it about 50 yards to the side of where it would be falling on a calm day, which is why it was landing on us.

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Originally Posted by Aea

If you shoot you're meant to shoot to kill, no warning shots either off-target or using a lesser load. Less legal fuss when you kill somebody (within your right) then simply injuring them (within your right to self-defense).

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No argument there.

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Originally Posted by Joe Appleby

I still don't get why you can use a gun for home defence and not a taser. I understand that a state wants to ban tasers due to the dangers involved etc., but surely that'd be the more humane solution compared to shooting a gun?

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A lot less effective, but really the law and counrt system is the bigger problem. We had several centuries worth of laws supporting shooting people in self-defense, but tasers are relatively new in comparison.

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Originally Posted by fffuuu

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Originally Posted by Cue1*

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Originally Posted by Aea

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Originally Posted by fffuuu

One solution for this problem would be to load the chamber with birdshot, and the tube magazine with buck.
then you have an Escalation of Force procedure you follow that, if they live and decide to get all lawyer-ey on you, or the local Prosecutor hates your ass, might give you some leeway with a judge/jury.

biggest thing to help you would probably be range time. go take a defensive shotgun class that has you shoot under (controlled) stressful conditions. that way godforbid you have to blast someone, you will hopefully hit your target, and not anything else.

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If you shoot you're meant to shoot to kill, no warning shots either off-target or using a lesser load. Less legal fuss when you kill somebody (within your right) then simply injuring them (within your right to self-defense).

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This.

If you shoot someone and injure them, even if you had every right to do so, they're still alive to testify against you, which becomes a he said she said argument. If you kill them, there's no one to dispute your word. Assuming a castle state, if the body is in your home and the entry wound is not in the back, that's it. You won't even go down to the station.

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fair enough. but it would certainly ease my conscience giving the person the several seconds before the next round to decide to stop.

still srs about the training though. go take a class. preferentially one run by someone who knows what they are doing.

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If you're using a shotgun, racking the slide on a shotgun is a pretty well known sound, if they are still coming after that, it's time to kill them.

+1 on the shoot to kill if someone breaks into your home and your life is on danger.

disclaimer: this is based on what I would do, not from some trained professional or self defense video. So dont blame me if you get shot. Just my 2cents.

If you can scare the person off by brandishing a weapon declaring that you *will* shoot them, then congratulations, you just averted a moment that can scar you for life. But the issue with a home invasion is that they are almost always within striking distance (sort of like the 21ft rule, but that was intended for holstered weapons) so you run a real risk of loosing your weapon, *especially* when you have a long weapon such as a shotgun.

If you end up face to face with a person intent on hurting you, your only real advantage is that you have your gun right on him for that first shot. If you hit a stupid bug (anything could happen in a stressful situation) and decide to give off a warning shot (and put other people at risk to your stray shot) you just gave the person a perfect reason to react. His reaction may involve running away, or running towards you. In the latter case now you have a moving target, your gun is not pointed at him because of the warning shot, and combined with the stress of the confrontation, you have put yourself in a very real risk of loosing your weapon or at least getting hurt.

Breaking into someone's house, becoming a danger to somebody, and refusing to stand down or leave when they are clearly warned that they will be shot puts the ball in their court.

1. loud noise, banging, something breaking

2. If you know the intruder is still outside and know where he is trying to break in, in my uneducated opinion its not too crazy to get your weapon ready and place you self in a position where you can confront the intruder with the upper hand, while calling 911 ofc.

3. If you think or know that the intruder is already roaming around in your house then swallow your pride and hide like a little girl while covering the entrance of your room/bathroom/etc with your weapon and call 911 cause your xbox is not worth it. But if you have family at risk call 911, stay on the line and as a last ditch effort confront the intruder, verify he's a complete stranger, tell him to leave or he will get shot. Although that would be crazy dangerous since you have to look for him, and most likely will end up with your back to him at least some of the time. Worse if there are more than 1 people.

4. If he continues to advance toward you despite your warnings, shoot to kill. Be sure you know where your bullets are going if when you miss.

Ofc I live in a castle state, so in my case I could legally go play rambo and and decide that my big screen is worth killing over and/or I am doing society a big favor by ending the intruder. While I like to think that I would never kill a human for those reasons, I do carry the mentality that I *will* end up spending $50k in court fees, because shit can happen, and the confrontation may not be like you imagined. Worst case scenario is of course that you just killed your drunk roommate, and I would not risk that over my "stuff". More realistically the intruder could turn around at the very last minute just as you fire your weapon, causing you to shoot him in the back, or some combination of events can occur that moves you away from a 100% innocent person to a little suspicious in the court's eyes. Sure you will most likely come off as not guilty, but things like that tend to make the trial a lengthy affair, and the court fees wont go away just because you are not guilty. So yea, unless I have something more than 50k and/or a life at risk I would try to avoid any and all confrontation.


tl;dr suck it up and hide behind your bed with your weapon drawn if someone breaks into your house. It may hurt your pride, but it can save you a lot of pain down the road.

How often do burglaries turn violent from the trespasser's side, statistically speaking? I bet that most of them will run the second they think there might be someone in the house. I mean they are looking for valuables, not for harming the owner. At least I heard that reasoning at work (McD & BK) very often in our security training. Robber walks in, hand over the money, get him out, remember the face. So, wouldn't pumping the action be enough deterrent? Obviously not true vs crazies, gangs and other assorted stupid stuff.

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Originally Posted by Soapy5

More realistically the intruder could turn around at the very last minute just as you fire your weapon, causing you to shoot him in the back, or some combination of events can occur that moves you away from a 100% innocent person to a little suspicious in the court's eyes. Sure you will most likely come off as not guilty, but things like that tend to make the trial a lengthy affair, and the court fees wont go away just because you are not guilty. So yea, unless I have something more than 50k and/or a life at risk I would try to avoid any and all confrontation.

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Just want to point out, in most castle states, shooting someone in the back or fleeing is not illegal or suspicious. Catching someone with their back to your and firing is an assured way to avoid having a possible life threatening confrontation. No requirement for warning or cease. You may want to check your state laws to verify. But otherwise, deadly force is acceptable as a means to protect not only yourself but your property. Example:

Texas Penal Law

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Sec. 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property.
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable
property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately
necessary:
(A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery,
aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the
nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property
would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury

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How often do burglaries turn violent from the trespasser's side, statistically speaking? I bet that most of them will run the second they think there might be someone in the house. I mean they are looking for valuables, not for harming the owner. At least I heard that reasoning at work (McD & BK) very often in our security training. Robber walks in, hand over the money, get him out, remember the face. So, wouldn't pumping the action be enough deterrent? Obviously not true vs crazies, gangs and other assorted stupid stuff.

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Security and home defense are two different things. Security guards have no arrest powers and are really just scarecrows that can take down license plates. Due to liability reasons they have their people be compliant, not start trouble, and not try to be heros or risk someone getting injured then sueing the company. It's not their property and they have no reason to risk a death, injury, or lawsuit over it.

Went to the gunshow today, really didn't realize how cheap ammo is at a gunshow. I got 200 rounds of .380 for 50 bucks. In the future I think I'll plan out when gunshows are in town and buy a good sized chunk of ammo, it's a lot cheaper that way.

I also saw an 870 in .410, made me giggle seeing my shotgun with such a thin barrel.

Cheap ammo at a gunshow is almost alway hand reloaded ammo. If you found any commercial ammo that cheap then you best inspect it first.

What kind did you pick up? Plinking FMJ's or something else?

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Originally Posted by Keorythe

Cheap ammo at a gunshow is almost alway hand reloaded ammo. If you found any commercial ammo that cheap then you best inspect it first.

What kind did you pick up? Plinking FMJ's or something else?

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PMC .380 ball rounds. It's the exact same stuff I buy from my range and it shoots fine. It's not the same grain as my JHPs though. :-/

In Michigan it's perfectly legal to shoot an intruder in your house, and perfectly legal to assume they mean to kill you, so long as you fear for yourself or family.

This means warnings of any kind are not recommended, as that may give the idea you're partially in control of the situation or something like that. In fact, the man who taught it to me said simply "Just shoot them. No lights, no warnings, no racking the slide." Of course, you probably want to be pretty sure it's not your kid or something, but that's up to you.

Source: My former brigadier general law professor/county sheriff/county prosecutor.

Edit: He also related a story of a string of break-ins that occurred in his neighborhood one night. The kid was caught, and the arresting officer asked why he'd skipped one house in particular. Kid said "It had alarm stickers. I know they're usually fake, but I didn't want to take the chance." The officer informed the kid that he was extremely lucky he'd done that. When the kid asked why, the officer replied "That's the sheriff's house, son. If you'd broken in there you'd be dead now."

I'm honestly unsure of what NC state law would enforce in a home invasion shooting. The law was just recently adopted. Prior to that court cases were beginning to crop up of home defenders shooting intruders and being charged with murder, as there wasn't really a law on the books about self defense.