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See, simple, direct, tastefully done. I appreciate it. Also, the reason I never discuss what I do for a "living". Picture matches comments, makes no assumptions outside of what was said, and doesn't need to. Edit that and adds some guns, even if you have to do it in MS Paint. Would work so much better. And use a white guy. Black dudes looking smug just can't offend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soapy5
I'll have to agree with Cue1 on this. A shotgun is bad juju if you put killing that far down the list. Even #1 buck will punch through a double paneled sheet rock wall. Frangibles create really shallow wont's and are better suited for doors and locks. A Glaser from a handgun will meet your criteria although I would rate it far down the totem pole as far as effectiveness. There are better ballisticians and trauma surgeons who have posted their results of the Glaser online than me by far and you should probably seek some of them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellenta
Unless you're running Pmags, regular USGI mags have a bad habit of causing double feeds if tilted forward from grabbing the mag while holding the magwell. These are the kinds of jams that require you to pop open the upper and/or require a tool like a knife or screwdriver to dislodge. Most guys blame the rifle when this happens when it's really user error. The older and more worn out the mags, the more likely it will happen. This is a known problem and you should have been warned of this since your first days at SOI or boot. The new tan followers still do not fully correct the issue but then you still don't see that many out there still. Heck there are still black mag followers still in circulation :ohnoes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BaredStuff...that may get him killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarabando
Mobility? No. Stability? Yes. Your support arm becomes a monopod. You balance your rifle on it's central axis and swivel it at that point. This is fine for shooting at stationary targets at the range. But on the move you have to crouch the gun tighter and tire yourself out faster or it bucks and dives much more. This isn't as noticeable on ultra short barrelled guns like an MP5 but on an M4 and larger it's really noticeable. But the biggest reason why most stick with it is that it doesn't fatigue the support arm near as much as if it were stretched out. You can "drive" the barrel to a target much easier with your arm stretched out but you'll also tire out faster. This is really important when you're in a stack about to do a clearing. You won't have to twist your body and open up that gap in an IOTV doing this either when done right.Quote:
holding the magwell gives you great mobility on a light short barrelled weapon
We use PMAGs. And I think you and I have gone over the mag well/barrel/foregrip debate before. Same time I explained my utter reluctance to stack a mag no more than 21 rounds, regardless of follower type. My response remains the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeorytheI'll have to agree with Cue1 on this. A shotgun is bad juju if you put killing that far down the list. Even #1 buck will punch through a double paneled sheet rock wall. Frangibles create really shallow wont's and are better suited for doors and locks. A Glaser from a handgun will meet your criteria although I would rate it far down the totem pole as far as effectiveness. There are better ballisticians and trauma surgeons who have posted their results of the Glaser online than me by far and you should probably seek some of them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellenta
Unless you're running Pmags, regular USGI mags have a bad habit of causing double feeds if tilted forward from grabbing the mag while holding the magwell. These are the kinds of jams that require you to pop open the upper and/or require a tool like a knife or screwdriver to dislodge. Most guys blame the rifle when this happens when it's really user error. The older and more worn out the mags, the more likely it will happen. This is a known problem and you should have been warned of this since your first days at SOI or boot. The new tan followers still do not fully correct the issue but then you still don't see that many out there still. Heck there are still black mag followers still in circulation :ohnoes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BaredStuff...that may get him killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarabando
Mobility? No. Stability? Yes. Your support arm becomes a monopod. You balance your rifle on it's central axis and swivel it at that point. This is fine for shooting at stationary targets at the range. But on the move you have to crouch the gun tighter and tire yourself out faster or it bucks and dives much more. This isn't as noticeable on ultra short barrelled guns like an MP5 but on an M4 and larger it's really noticeable. But the biggest reason why most stick with it is that it doesn't fatigue the support arm near as much as if it were stretched out. You can "drive" the barrel to a target much easier with your arm stretched out but you'll also tire out faster. This is really important when you're in a stack about to do a clearing. You won't have to twist your body and open up that gap in an IOTV doing this either when done right.Quote:
holding the magwell gives you great mobility on a light short barrelled weapon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keorythe
No round that will be effective at stopping a bad-guy will fail to penetrate two layers of sheet-rock; if the bullet can't go through sheet-rock, then it doesn't have enough penetration to go through a rib cage or a skull either. Glaser safety rounds will go straight through a wall and into someone on the other side, but have proven to be rather unreliable at penetrating a person far enough to reach the vital organs. The real advantage of frangible ammo is that it won't pass through the victim and possibly hit a bystander behind him/her. Bottom line is that if you are going to have a gun for self defense, you need to be skilled enough in its use to not just hit the target, but also hit the target's vital organs.
When carrying concealed in crowded areas frangible ammo makes sense, but you are sacrificing stopping power by doing so. Some people like to load their weapon with mostly JHP following a couple rounds of frangible.
You assume a white guy can't look like that? Just assuming the black and white picture is a black man. RacistQuote:
Originally Posted by Soapy5
That's niel degrasse. But yea, I saw a perfect opportunity and took it. I'm just busting Bared's chops :lol:
So I had never actually shot any of the Glaser Safety Slugs to test how they shot or to know how they hit. Did some research and I have decided I'll stick with my standard hollow points. A TL;DR of about 2 hours of internet research:
The standardized number for penetration deep enough to reach vital organs is 8 inches. 10 inches will insure any shot near a vital organ will reach it, and 16 will exit most average sized males. Note that these numbers are based upon ballistic gelatin penetration, not the penetration into flesh. There's a lot more that goes into penetrating flesh and hitting organs, but the basic number I found was that 8 inches into ballistic gelatin will provide sufficient penetration into flesh to reach vital organs.
This basically means that penetration between 10 and 16 inches is ideal for a pistol round, but going beyond 16 inches could mean risk to those around your target. Remember that bullets don't fly perfectly straight lines, they tend to reflect off of round surfaces like bones and change trajectory. This is why 'the shooting someone through the floor' in action movies doesn't really work. Even sheetrock will change the trajectory.
Generally speaking, most GSS or other frangible rounds tend to penetrate 5 inches or so before stopping, assuming they expand. Occasionally you'll get a bad one that basically becomes a stupid light ball round, which funnily enough, have been known to penetrate soft armor. Heh.
GSS also tend to punch through at least one wall before fragmenting. The fragmentation process isn't instant either, so there's a possibility that if you're walls are close together they can punch through more than one wall. Line them up back to back, and GSS will penetrate through 4 walls. How deadly they are at that point is unknown, they will fragment after just the first wall usually. For comparison, JHP and ball rounds both penetrated 6 walls worth of sheetrock, which was the maximum amount of sheetrock used.
There's a few xray images floating out there of a guy shot with a GSS. The round entered his arm just above the elbow in the upper arm. The jacket was stopped by the bone, only slightly fracturing it, and the shot was distributed into his arm. No exit wound. If it can barely make it into the flesh of the arm, what worth is it then against center mass with all that ribcage there?
Overall, GSS don't seem to be worth it, as they're stupid expensive and don't do much for damage, nor do they really serve their purpose.
I personally shoot either Hornady or Magtech JHP .380 ACP which penetrates to around 10 or 11 inches, which sounds about right for penetration for me. Since in home defense I have a bit more in the ways of options, as well as the ability to use a larger a larger gun. Both 20 gauge and 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot(20g) and 00Buckshot (12g) penetrate 12 inches. But with a 20 gauge that's 12 inches of penetration for 20 projectiles and 9 projectiles with a 12 gauge. That's a lot more damage than a pistol round.
Since someone mentioned apartments, most apartments have what's called a fire wall. It's usually brick, and separates apartments that sit back to back with each other. Newer and better apartments will have them between each apartment, save for up and down. A JHP round will shatter against brick, and even a ball round is unlikely to penetrate all the way through a brick wall, so unless you're loading AP rounds, shooting into the fire wall is likely a good stopper for missed shots. Obviously any missed shot is still a liability, but limiting risk is always better than full risk.
Tell, I think after reviewing all the info I could find, I'm going to suggest you buy a .380 ACP or 9mm handgun for your self defense and take some classes on self defense. Paired with some quality JHP rounds, if your round are on target, then there shouldn't be any over penetration. Where I see your issue is the progression of your objectives with defending yourself. Choosing to use lethal force should always be in a situation where you truly feel it is need to defend your own life or the life of others, but once you've made that decision to use lethal force, all bets are off. Your objective should be to kill your target as quickly as possible while minimizing the injury to those around you. There's nothing defensive about taking a life, it's an offensive decision and should be approached as one. If this is something that you don't agree with or cannot understand, I don't think you should own a firearm. Consider pepper spray or a taser combined with a proper exit plan, a cell phone, and strong luck.
Honestly, if you are going to carry a gun you need those other things as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
I carry a gun everywhere and I don't have pepper spray or a taser. >,>Quote:
Originally Posted by CastleBravoHonestly, if you are going to carry a gun you need those other things as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*
Since Bared seems to be the military guy, I'd like his opinion on the most reliable semi-auto pistol he's used. Also, has anyone ever experienced the Five-seveN pistol jamming?
Thanks I'll poke into that, I really don't know shit about handguns as all I've actually handled is military grade hardware mostly machine guns. As I'm in an urban environment for the next three years my key goal is to make accidental shootings of neighbors a rather impossible in the unlikely event I'll need to defend myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue1*You don't seem to know about different ammo choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellenta
Glaser safety rounds and hollow points are your friends. A shotgun that's got a load strong enough to put someone down is nothing but 9-20 pistol rounds all at once. the 9mm is a very popular round, and the Glaser Safety Rounds are one of the nastiest rounds I've ever seen, and they won't punch through your target. No need to sacrifice stopping power for safety. I would suggest you go down to your local gun store and learn what pistol would fit your hands best.
If you're seriously worried about what's beyond your target(not a bad thing), then I strongly advise against a shotgun. I personally use a 20g for home defense, but in almost every situation where I'm defending my home from an invader I'm either shooting up into my frontdoor and then a hillside, or I'm shooting straight through my garage and into the hill behind it.
As for Castlebravo's post. I'm not going to get a concealed carry permit, and I'm not going to take it outside my home. Granted I'm pretty much a shoe in for the qualifications but I really don't see the point, especially in a state that frowns on people using guns in self defense and have a lot of boxes to check for you to not be charged with murder/attempted murder. This is also why the lethality of the round is a secondary concern, in most cases just the act of getting shot regardless of whether the round can get past the ribcage will do nicely. Worst comes to worst I can always gut shot the fool, and I mean seriously who other than a sniper aims for someones head that's just dumb chances are you'll miss.
Hey there hardman, you're not the only person who has fired a shot in anger on this forum. Does firing holding the magwell work for you in particular? If so fine, however be on the look out for the negatives of that as well, others have brought those up so they don't need repeating. By your own admission you're a tanglefoot so you gotta do what you gotta do. Stay safe and i-net rage on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bared
Depending on the crime in your neighborhood and the exact situation, this may well not be the case.Quote:
This is also why the lethality of the round is a secondary concern, in most cases just the act of getting shot regardless of whether the round can get past the ribcage will do nicely.
Being amped on certain things, up to and including basic adrenaline for some people, can make them shrug off non-fatal or non-debilitating gunshots (particularly if you're not using high velocity ammunition of some sort, as the amount of overall system shock decreases with lower velocity rounds). I'm also military so to be fair I come from the same school of thought which is "if you're going to bother shooting, kill them as fast as possible." But really, if you're going to shoot a guy in your own home, you want him down*
*Particularly if you live in a castle state in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine), which I'm not sure whether you do. If you do and you really actually intend to own a firearm for the intent of defending your home you might as well use whatever will simply drop them with no questions asked.
edit: Also I'm supposedly the weapons expert for my unit and I find RE: magwell holding, that older equipment and worn mags, as noted above, makes holding the magwell very very bad, but that good equipment and stuff that is well kept / on spec, the problem decreases quite a bit. I tend to hold my hand backed up to, but not quite on, the magwell.
Sig p22x series. Sig p226, p228, p229, used all four. Never had performance issues in combat with my m11 (sig 228) or the 220. Put out good groupings, too. Use em mainly in boarding actions and personnel capture. Basically any situation where a rifle or submachine gun is a liability. very reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordstern
Not military or anything, but of the stuff I have, the Glocks and the XD's have never jammed when shot competently on decent-quality ammo. The H&K USP45 started stovepiping when dirty at some stupid high round count but that was probably because the springs need replaced, so I wouldn't call it a point against. All my Sigs (SP2022 and P238's) and 1911's have jammed. If you want something reliable and not pay an arm/leg for it, get a Glock or XD, both are hard to go wrong with. M9A1 is not reliably holding open on last shot with one of the stock mags, keeping an eye on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordstern
FiveSeven has never jammed on me with stock mags, though I don't have very many through it yet. It DID choke on the extended mags, because the springs that CMMG supplies with the kit are just wrong and doublefeed like crazy.
As far as AR-15's, I really do like the Magpul AFG. I don't know much about how it would work in combat or whatever, but it feels like a good compromise between stability and mobility. I have one of their shortie RVG's on the Saiga-12 and it's quite nice as well. Short is nice because it doesn't interfere with rocking in the comically large drum/banana mags.
For home defense loads, the way I figured it was I'd rather have a cheap hollowpoint that I can test hundreds of than some expensive fad round. I use the Walmart Remington UMC JHP, and haven't had a single failure with it. I have a mag of Guard Dogs (one of said expensive fad rounds) too, but I like the Remington. It's also not much more expensive than FMJ.
Not holding open with a particular mag is almost always attributed to the mag springs wearing out or being jammed up by debris/rust and not having enough power to engage the catch. If you were in the military your armorer would redline the thing immediately and take it off line. Unless you replace the spring and/or do a thorough cleaning of the inside then you should also ditch the mag. More problems are inbound with that mag.Quote:
Originally Posted by LancerSix
It's funny but we were having this discussion on another forum about the Magpul coolaid and how many more .mil and LEOs are picking up the AFG or are using a regular VFG as a palm heel rest on their rifles. The old timers )WWII and Korea vets) chimed in and noted that this is what they were taught back in the 40's and 50's. At some point it fell out of favor (probably due to arm fatigue). Now what's old is new again and being re-taught. Weird eh?Quote:
As far as AR-15's, I really do like the Magpul AFG. I don't know much about how it would work in combat or whatever, but it feels like a good compromise between stability and mobility. I have one of their shortie RVG's on the Saiga-12 and it's quite nice as well.
You don't even need to run hollowpoints for accuracy training. As long as the grain matches your defense ammo of choice then the point of impact isn't really going to change at 7 yards. However, you'll want to run a few hundred of your chosen type through you gun at a fast speed to test for reliability. Not all hollowpoints will fire reliably though certain guns. The angle of the mouth will sometimes impact with the barrel and cause a misfeed or stovepipe. Older M1911's are notorious for this as are many 1st gen. Glock 17's and 19's. I was able to run several thousand rounds of TAP and Golden Sabers through a G21 as well as standard 230gr Lake city ball ammo with no real issues over a decade of hard use. Never heard of Guard Dog ammo before.Quote:
For home defense loads, the way I figured it was I'd rather have a cheap hollowpoint that I can test hundreds of than some expensive fad round. I use the Walmart Remington UMC JHP, and haven't had a single failure with it. I have a mag of Guard Dogs (one of said expensive fad rounds) too, but I like the Remington. It's also not much more expensive than FMJ.
But really Tellenta, if you're looking for a home defense gun that does the job and doesn't penetrate as much as the others then grab and M4/M16/AR15. Easier to control and aim than a pistol, will penetrate fewer walls than a pistol or shotgun and it's something you're intimately familiar with. If collateral damage is really really that much of a concern then it's time to start driving nails into a baseball bat now. That's not even a joke.
home defence = shotgun XD just the "pump action" can end a hostile situation also i can tell you from personal experience having a pistol in your face is alot less scary then having some one wave a 12g around
While a shotgun is amazing for home defense, it does have the issue of putting out so many rounds, and if even one is off target, that's one round that can easily kill your kid or wife on the other side of that wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarabando
My foe will most likely be a heroin (or other) addict twitching for their next hit not some amped up freak/normal person breaking in to my house to murder me. While I understand the military state of mind for shooting at people and wholeheartedly agree, the military also has a thing for weapon safety as well. I'm trying to see if there is a solution that ensures the safety of neighbors, if there isn't there isn't and I'll look down other paths. I'm not going to pepper spray my home, and tazers are a 1 shot and a fucking annoying reload.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros
Also not a castle state, has to be purely self defense with no possibility for retreat.
http://legislature.mi.gov/documents/...s/Firearms.pdf