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OrangeAfroMan
November 16 2012, 07:40:51 AM
I'd post this in Serious Business but my posting privileges there seem to have been revoked, don't know why or when.

Anyway, I'm surprised there isn't already a thread on this, but things are escalating between Israel and Hamas. Hamas has been firing rockets into civilian parts of southern Israel from Gaza for the last year (over 800 according to NPR), and in response Israel recently assassinated one of Hamas' military leaders.

Currently both sides are firing rockets into each other, with Israel performing air strikes as well, targeting Hamas militants. Rockets continue to be launched from Gaza into southern Israel.

The Egyptian Prime Minister (a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, a close ally of Hamas) is currently in Gaza to try to negotiate a cease-fire, but last night on NPR they interviewed the Egyptian ambassador to Britain and he said that Egypt would always stand behind Hamas and that they won't close the tunnels that have been feeding weapons to Hamas because 'they will get them anyway.' Doesn't sound like an ally to Israel to me.

I side with Israel on this issue - every interview I've heard with Hamas representatives have boiled down to them claiming to be victims and outright lying about events. I also side with Israel because they are extremely impressive in my opinion in their continued survival and to me they are the only modern, reasonable country in the Middle East.

What are your thoughts?

marcus xero
November 16 2012, 07:52:24 AM
Both sides need to stop being raging cunts and sit the fuck back down at the negotiating table

Izo Azlion
November 16 2012, 07:57:20 AM
Seems like there are just some parts of the world that are constantly shit no matter what. Fence it off and let them have at it.

lubica
November 16 2012, 08:02:01 AM
Both sides need to stop being raging cunts and sit the fuck back down at the negotiating table

This, although Israel's right to defend itself comes with a staggering and disproportionate civilian price tag.

Evelgrivion
November 16 2012, 08:05:55 AM
Both sides need to stop being raging cunts and sit the fuck back down at the negotiating table

This, although Israel's right to defend itself comes with a staggering and disproportionate civilian price tag.

A fact that Hamas readily exploits; Israel is pretty much screwed no matter what they do, because any retaliation they make against terrorist attacks is going to carry an enormous death toll on civilians in the West Bank. This continues to work in Hamas' favor, because it makes Israel look like shit with a media increasingly unwilling to point out facts if it means making one side look bad, and increases resentment amongst Palestinians against the Israelis because they keep losing friends and family.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 08:07:16 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.

OrangeAfroMan
November 16 2012, 08:08:52 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.

Exactly why I wanted to put this in Serious Business.

Toxic
November 16 2012, 08:10:23 AM
:popcorn:

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 08:12:00 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.

Exactly why I wanted to put this in Serious Business.

You already have one about Israel there.

Crystalline Entity
November 16 2012, 08:16:14 AM
I do not like Israel, they tried a false flag attack once. Google USS Liberty, they are raging twats who believe the holocaust gives them the right to oppress others, much the same as they were.

And if you say you don't like Israel they rage that you are an anti-semite... a word that literally means nothing but that has a massive stigma attached to it.

OrangeAfroMan
November 16 2012, 08:17:13 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.

Exactly why I wanted to put this in Serious Business.

You already have one about Israel there.

My bad, its way down there. I still can't post in it though so whatever.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 08:18:26 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.

Exactly why I wanted to put this in Serious Business.

You already have one about Israel there.

My bad, its way down there. I still can't post in it though so whatever.

Thank god for that.

Me
November 16 2012, 08:24:16 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.

But would that be a final solution?

RazoR
November 16 2012, 08:38:19 AM
Mutant zombie jews?

Better leave it as it is~

Hast
November 16 2012, 08:39:05 AM
why do trouble in gaza seem to follow Israeli election cycles?

And I'm not surprised that OAM sides with Israel since he seem kind of right wing (in the american sense, although not talking extremes here) and that right wing media in the US generally has a hard-on for Israel.

pr0lurker
November 16 2012, 08:56:32 AM
I think SOD said it best... and this was in 1985

Fuck the middle east
There's too many problems
They just get in the way
We sure could live without them
They hijack our planes
They raise our oil prices
We'll kill them all and have a ball
And end their fuckin' crisis
BEIRUT, LEBANON-Won't exist once we're done
LIBYA, IRAN-We'll flush the bastards down the can
SYRIANS and SHIITES-Crush their faces with our might
Then Israel and Egypt can live in peace without these dicks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9w1BEINyxs

iLOL
November 16 2012, 09:13:56 AM
Mutant zombie jews?

circle of (undead) life etc...

http://pics.livejournal.com/drjon/pic/0003w3ag

Sacul
November 16 2012, 09:15:50 AM
As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,
With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,
Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:
To be a free people in our land,
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

Rakshasa The Cat
November 16 2012, 09:27:43 AM
Where do you find black jews? In the back of the oven.

Also Israel should just give the fuckers some land and stop trying to relive the holocaust like some pedofilia ass-rape victim who grows up into a priest that fucks all the little boys he gets his hands on.

tekai
November 16 2012, 09:36:48 AM
Mutant zombie jews?

circle of (undead) life etc...

http://pics.livejournal.com/drjon/pic/0003w3ag

I'm sorry but he was a Lich not a Zombie

http://onebit.us/x/u/tekai/AZnRd0ORXq.jpg

punkboy101
November 16 2012, 09:47:44 AM
Both sides need to stop being raging cunts and sit the fuck back down at the negotiating table

This, there isn't much more you can say tbh. Both sides are just as bad as each other, Israel does have the right to defend itself, but is anyone really surprised that people who've effectively had their land stolen and forced to live in the worlds largest refugee camp might be a little fucked off and do whatever they can to get rid of the people they see as oppressors?

The situation is fucked up, always been fucked up, and will remain fucked up until they all kill each other. The problem is they just might drag the rest of the world down with them. With the situation's in Syria/Egypt/Iran/Middle East in general things could escalate very quickly if we aren't careful.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 09:48:58 AM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 09:53:23 AM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

Evelgrivion
November 16 2012, 10:00:44 AM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

The Israelis are dying less; this makes them better. Go with the winner! :p

Crystalline Entity
November 16 2012, 10:06:13 AM
I have always thought a Babylon 5 quote slightly altered explains this Israeli - Palestinian conflict:


Elder Israeli Citizen: We are a dying people. So are the Palestinians. Obsessed with each other's death until death is all we can see and death is all we deserve.

Israel: The Palestinians started it!

Elder Israeli Citizen: And will you continue, until there are no more Jews, and no more Arabs? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, Israel. It only matters who is suffering.

Israel: No. No, I have an obligation to honor my father's name.

Elder Israeli Citizen: And how have you chosen to honor that name? What is there left for Israel if all of creation falls around us? There is nothing. No hope, no dream, no future, no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of death toward something greater. If we are a dying people, then let us die with honor, by helping the others as no one else can.

Israel: I don't understand.

Elder Israel Citizen: Because you have let them distract you. Blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another. We must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because if you fail in this then none of us will be saved, and the Jews will be only a memory. You have the opportunity here and now to choose, to become something greater and nobler and more difficult than you have been before. The universe does not offer such chances often Israel.

Israel: Why now? Why not earlier? All this time, where have you been?

Kosh: I have always been here.



:D

Wall
November 16 2012, 10:18:09 AM
Until one side or the other gives up on E. Jerusalem this conflict won't end. The other issues are all equally mired, but that one is pretty much the linchpin, and since neither side can give up on it....well, it won't end.

That all being said, it would be far, far, far better for Palestine to stop firing rockets. The Israeli settler encroachment has happened irregardless of rockets, mortars and the occasional shooting. Few Israelis have been killed by these attacks. They are essentially useless.

All those attacks do is fuck the Palestine people.

On a side note: I've been listening to the BBC and hearing the Muslim Brotherhood reps talk about those tunnels is nothing short of hilarious. "They only carry building supplies, food and medical aid! They have never been used for weapons!"

OrangeAfroMan
November 16 2012, 10:23:29 AM
why do trouble in gaza seem to follow Israeli election cycles?

And I'm not surprised that OAM sides with Israel since he seem kind of right wing (in the american sense, although not talking extremes here) and that right wing media in the US generally has a hard-on for Israel.

Heh, i got called an 'Idealist Liberal' the other day by another forum I frequent. Perspective -.-

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 10:24:16 AM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

>Implying I was serious.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 10:25:33 AM
Both sides need to stop being raging cunts and sit the fuck back down at the negotiating table

This, although Israel's right to defend itself comes with a staggering and disproportionate civilian price tag.

A fact that Hamas readily exploits; Israel is pretty much screwed no matter what they do, because any retaliation they make against terrorist attacks is going to carry an enormous death toll on civilians in the West Bank. This continues to work in Hamas' favor, because it makes Israel look like shit with a media increasingly unwilling to point out facts if it means making one side look bad, and increases resentment amongst Palestinians against the Israelis because they keep losing friends and family.

If they retaliated more precisely than blanket artillery, guided missle and saturation air strikes it might be a little less bloody dont you think?

Also Palestinian rockets kill a small handful of Israelis (who are inevitably the more strident ultraorthadox if they live in contested areas or near the borders) a year, while Israel's actions kill thousands of civilians.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 10:32:47 AM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

>Implying I was serious.

M8 i never know with you.

Daneel Trevize
November 16 2012, 10:33:06 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit.Just dirty-nuke Jerusalem. Counter that religious nuttery with some SCIENCE BITCHES, let them suddenly switch to playing hot potato with it, or derp themselves to death. Fuck religion aka large scale cults of stupidity.

That or I declare a new religion that says me & my descendants are the true owners of some stupid patch of dirt, so says my holy text, so y'all should fuck off and give it to me because I'm right because I say so, and also one time I totally had a dream about it, honest.
So fucking dumb. Get the kids & un-indoctrinated out, but nuke the nutters-for-life.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 10:37:10 AM
It always makes me rage that Israel apologists (who also tend to be very hostile towards Islam in general...funny that) think it is reasonable to measure Israel's actions and the Palestinians by the same yardstick.

Palestine is a broken ghetto of a country. Its people are ill educated, its economy is fucked (both as a direct result of Israel's actions). People live in mysery, particularly in Gaza.

Against this background, stupid statements like "Palestine deserves because it doesn't stop firing rockets at Israel" is retarded. Its like saying the Somali people don't deserve Aid because their leadership can get their shit together.

Measuring Israels actions and saying "well what they are doing is [no worse than] the Palestinians" is therefore utterly retarded. Israel is a powerful, stable, functional democracy with all the institutions of government, legislature and oversight that go with that. We MUST hold Israel to a higher standard than we hold Palestine.

Terrorism and attacks on Israel by extremists in Palestine is inevitable while the flagrant breaches of international law and deliberate ghettoisation of palestine continues. I'm not arguing such acts are justified (though its possible to make such an argument), I dont think they are. But thats not the point. They are inevitable when you take a country, refuse them political independence, build a wall around them, deny them building materials, enough water or electricity and strictly control foreign entry and exit, while periodically demolishing what little infrastructure is built. In this environment, extremism is absolutely inevitable.

[b]What Israel is doing is like starving and abusing a pet dog and then using the fact that it tries to bite people as an excuse for making the conditions it lives in even worse.

Noone denies Israel is massively in breach of international law with its illegal and government supported (and encouraged!) settlements outside of the 1967 borders. By forcing palestinians off land and giving it to extremist jews, how is that anything other than ethnic cleansing?

What is happening in Israel/Palestine will be remembered by History as worse than South African apartheid. Sympathisers with Israel will be revealed as the racist or anti-muslim bigots.

OrangeAfroMan
November 16 2012, 10:48:15 AM
Israel is a powerful, stable, functional democracy with all the institutions of government, legislature and oversight that go with that.

This is why i support them

Paradox
November 16 2012, 10:51:08 AM
There's no reason (other than Israel) that Palestine can't have a functional economy and government is there?

Jeeves
November 16 2012, 10:51:10 AM
I'm just wondering how long before they start warming up the ovens.

They're no better than the nazi's at this point.

Me
November 16 2012, 10:56:04 AM
Israel is a powerful, stable, functional democracy with all the institutions of government, legislature and oversight that go with that.

This is why i support them

Genocide is ok as long as it is government backed?

Traxio Nacho
November 16 2012, 10:57:05 AM
Nuke the entire region from orbit, making sure to put pipe lines in to steal their oil first.

Roam
November 16 2012, 10:58:23 AM
One of my closest friends is from Israel, spend years in the military doing awful stuff against his will and being treated like shit. After the stuff I've heard about propaganda, mass indoctrination of their youth, the raw murderous hatred that is actively encouraged at primary schools and the blatant lying about their military actions against Palestine.... i can't possibly side with Israel.

Fun fact, I let him read the srs bsns Israel Thread from a while back, and he was very upset how ignorant, uninformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting all of the facts wrong.

punkboy101
November 16 2012, 11:06:03 AM
Israel is a powerful, stable, functional democracy with all the institutions of government, legislature and oversight that go with that.

This is why i support them

Genocide is ok as long as it is US governments backed?

Fixed that for you.

Ultimately the US bias in this situation only add's to the shit storm. They really do prop Israel up with military aid/tech and refuse to call bullshit on them when they act retarded. The only people who can ultimately "control" the situation is the US, and as long as they blindly support one side it will never get better.

IceBlock
November 16 2012, 11:06:34 AM
This will probably end up as a proxy war or total devestation.

Wall
November 16 2012, 11:08:56 AM
One of my closest friends is from Israel, spend years in the military doing awful stuff against his will and being treated like shit. After the stuff I've heard about propaganda, mass indoctrination of their youth, the raw murderous hatred that is actively encouraged at primary schools and the blatant lying about their military actions against Palestine.... i can't possibly side with Israel.

Fun fact, I let him read the srs bsns Israel Thread from a while back, and he was very upset how ignorant, uninformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting all of the facts wrong.

I know how you feel man, my friend from America read the lolUS threads that used to pop up here and was very upset how ignorant, uniformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting the facts wrong. That's how I knew you were all wrong.

Hast
November 16 2012, 11:11:44 AM
One of my closest friends is from Israel, spend years in the military doing awful stuff against his will and being treated like shit. After the stuff I've heard about propaganda, mass indoctrination of their youth, the raw murderous hatred that is actively encouraged at primary schools and the blatant lying about their military actions against Palestine.... i can't possibly side with Israel.

Fun fact, I let him read the srs bsns Israel Thread from a while back, and he was very upset how ignorant, uninformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting all of the facts wrong.

I know how you feel man, my friend from America read the lolUS threads that used to pop up here and was very upset how ignorant, uniformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting the facts wrong. That's how I knew you were all wrong.

1/10

I have hopes that everyone might be able to be civil for a little while. Any trolling or posting of zombie jesus pics at this point will be awarded with infractions. >_>

Toxic
November 16 2012, 11:12:23 AM
Israel is clearly bad, but Hamas is worse. They fire rockets at civilians, and then hide amongst other civilians.

Both sides needs to duke it out once and for all and be done with it.

Optimally they should just say "fuck it", but we know this isnt going to happen, so the above is the best we can hope for.


Edit: Meanwhile, on the west-bank area the palestinians are the good guys and the israelis the bad guys, hands down. Stop the settlements already.

helgur
November 16 2012, 11:18:53 AM
One of my closest friends is from Israel, spend years in the military doing awful stuff against his will and being treated like shit. After the stuff I've heard about propaganda, mass indoctrination of their youth, the raw murderous hatred that is actively encouraged at primary schools and the blatant lying about their military actions against Palestine.... i can't possibly side with Israel.

Fun fact, I let him read the srs bsns Israel Thread from a while back, and he was very upset how ignorant, uninformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting all of the facts wrong.

One of my colleagues is from Israel, he served in the IDF as an infantryman 6 years ago. While he didn't say it directly what he did tell do confirm a lot what your friend says. He was pretty vague as he didn't want to go into specifics, but he told me he managed to steer away from the 'nasty stuff' thus avoiding getting in a position where he had to exercise brutality against the civilian population.

Grim stuff

Lallante
November 16 2012, 11:19:44 AM
Israel is clearly bad, but Hamas is worse. They fire rockets at civilians, and then hide amongst other civilians.

Both sides needs to duke it out once and for all and be done with it.

Optimally they should just say "fuck it", but we know this isnt going to happen, so the above is the best we can hope for.


Edit: Meanwhile, on the west-bank area the palestinians are the good guys and the israelis the bad guys, hands down. Stop the settlements already.

Hamas is a collection of illeducated activists playing at nationhood. Israel is one of the most organised and effective democratic nations in the world. Saying "Hamas is worse" is a joke. Read my post above.

What Hamas is doing, objectively, is bad. That they are doing it is hardly surprising - they've grown up in a ghetto and the only thing they know about israelis is that they treat palestinians as subhumans.

When you say "duke it out once and for all" you mean Israel + US (or at least funded and armed by the US) vs Palestine? nice.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 11:21:52 AM
There are 3 kinds of people:

1) People who are ignorant about the Israeli-palestine conflict and support israel because Israels values superficially seem closer to the Western Ideal
2) People who support Israel because they hate Muslims/darkies.
3) People who oppose what Israel is doing.

Kanv
November 16 2012, 11:23:04 AM
One of my closest friends is from Israel, spend years in the military doing awful stuff against his will and being treated like shit. After the stuff I've heard about propaganda, mass indoctrination of their youth, the raw murderous hatred that is actively encouraged at primary schools and the blatant lying about their military actions against Palestine.... i can't possibly side with Israel.

Fun fact, I let him read the srs bsns Israel Thread from a while back, and he was very upset how ignorant, uninformed and yet adamant a lot of you were about your opinions, while getting all of the facts wrong.I liked the part where you provided accurate facts, or at least pointed out which ones were inaccurate

Toxic
November 16 2012, 11:29:56 AM
---

Hamas is a collection of illeducated activists playing at nationhood. Israel is one of the most organised and effective democratic nations in the world. Saying "Hamas is worse" is a joke. Read my post above.

I read your post before I posted. It didnt and doesnt change anything.

I hold both sides to the standards of decent human conduct, laws of war, and upholding of human rights.

Both sides fail to meet these standards. Hamas, however, does so openly and systematically across the board.

Also, note that I do not equal Hamas to palestinians. Palestinians is a group of suppressed people. Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 11:45:16 AM
---

Hamas is a collection of illeducated activists playing at nationhood. Israel is one of the most organised and effective democratic nations in the world. Saying "Hamas is worse" is a joke. Read my post above.

I read your post before I posted. It didnt and doesnt change anything.

I hold both sides to the standards of decent human conduct, laws of war, and upholding of human rights.

Both sides fail to meet these standards. Hamas, however, does so openly and systematically across the board.

Also, note that I do not equal Hamas to palestinians. Palestinians is a group of suppressed people. Hamas is a terrorist organisation.


You are placing an impossible to beat test on Palestine/Hamas. You are basically saying they don't deserve freedom until they stop fighting. Thats like telling the guy you are torturing you will stop hurting him when he stops screaming from pain.


If you dont equate Hamas with Palestine, GREAT. Then you must agree that Israeli counterattacks on Hamas that are guaranteed to kill Palestinian civilians are completely unjustifiable and cannot be allowed?

Toxic
November 16 2012, 11:55:01 AM
---

Hamas is a collection of illeducated activists playing at nationhood. Israel is one of the most organised and effective democratic nations in the world. Saying "Hamas is worse" is a joke. Read my post above.

I read your post before I posted. It didnt and doesnt change anything.

I hold both sides to the standards of decent human conduct, laws of war, and upholding of human rights.

Both sides fail to meet these standards. Hamas, however, does so openly and systematically across the board.

Also, note that I do not equal Hamas to palestinians. Palestinians is a group of suppressed people. Hamas is a terrorist organisation.


You are placing an impossible to beat test on Palestine/Hamas. You are basically saying they don't deserve freedom until they stop fighting. Thats like telling the guy you are torturing you will stop hurting him when he stops screaming from pain.


If you dont equate Hamas with Palestine, GREAT. Then you must agree that Israeli counterattacks on Hamas that are guaranteed to kill Palestinian civilians are completely unjustifiable and cannot be allowed?

Do not put words in my mouth, thank you. They can fight the Israeli military all they want, but thats not what Hamas is doing. They are firing rockets towards population centers.

And yes, if there is civilians inside a house with a hamas leader, then they shouldnt bomb it. If theres a risk, but not a certainty, its still allowed under international law. The major difference is in why that target is targetted: Because you want to hurt civilians? Or because you want to take out enemy combatants?

Edit: And thus we are back to my original point. Hamas is worse. They target indiscriminately, at least Israel doesnt systematically go after civilians only. Both sides are still fucktards tho.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 12:00:00 PM
---

Hamas is a collection of illeducated activists playing at nationhood. Israel is one of the most organised and effective democratic nations in the world. Saying "Hamas is worse" is a joke. Read my post above.

I read your post before I posted. It didnt and doesnt change anything.

I hold both sides to the standards of decent human conduct, laws of war, and upholding of human rights.

Both sides fail to meet these standards. Hamas, however, does so openly and systematically across the board.

Also, note that I do not equal Hamas to palestinians. Palestinians is a group of suppressed people. Hamas is a terrorist organisation.


You are placing an impossible to beat test on Palestine/Hamas. You are basically saying they don't deserve freedom until they stop fighting. Thats like telling the guy you are torturing you will stop hurting him when he stops screaming from pain.


If you dont equate Hamas with Palestine, GREAT. Then you must agree that Israeli counterattacks on Hamas that are guaranteed to kill Palestinian civilians are completely unjustifiable and cannot be allowed?

Do not put words in my mouth, thank you. They can fight the Israeli military all they want, but thats not what Hamas is doing. They are firing rockets towards population centers.

And yes, if there is civilians inside a house with a hamas leader, then they shouldnt bomb it. If theres a risk, but not a certainty, its still allowed under international law. The major difference is in why that target is targetted: Because you want to hurt civilians? Or because you want to take out enemy combatants?

Edit: And thus we are back to my original point. Hamas is worse. They target indiscriminately, at least Israel doesnt systematically go after civilians only. Both sides are still fucktards tho.

Nothing that Israel does to palestine is allowed under international law

Collective Punishment is illegal
Acquisition of land by force is illegal
Forced population transfer is illegal
Violation of right to self-determination is illegal.

Not to mention the settlements and the killings

Toxic
November 16 2012, 12:03:12 PM
Nothing that Israel does to palestine is allowed under international law

Collective Punishment is illegal
Acquisition of land by force is illegal
Forced population transfer is illegal
Violation of right to self-determination is illegal.

Not to mention the settlements and the killings

Targeting Hamas however is completely legal. You seem to equate a terrorist organisation with the palestinians.

Wall
November 16 2012, 12:10:40 PM
Nothing that Israel does to palestine is allowed under international law

Collective Punishment is illegal
Acquisition of land by force is illegal
Forced population transfer is illegal
Violation of right to self-determination is illegal.

Not to mention the settlements and the killings

Are you talking strictly about when Israel does it to Palestine, or long ago when Palestinians & others tried to do it to Israel?

Varcaus
November 16 2012, 12:22:11 PM
---

Hamas is a collection of illeducated activists playing at nationhood. Israel is one of the most organised and effective democratic nations in the world. Saying "Hamas is worse" is a joke. Read my post above.

I read your post before I posted. It didnt and doesnt change anything.

I hold both sides to the standards of decent human conduct, laws of war, and upholding of human rights.

Both sides fail to meet these standards. Hamas, however, does so openly and systematically across the board.

Also, note that I do not equal Hamas to palestinians. Palestinians is a group of suppressed people. Hamas is a terrorist organisation.


You are placing an impossible to beat test on Palestine/Hamas. You are basically saying they don't deserve freedom until they stop fighting. Thats like telling the guy you are torturing you will stop hurting him when he stops screaming from pain.


If you dont equate Hamas with Palestine, GREAT. Then you must agree that Israeli counterattacks on Hamas that are guaranteed to kill Palestinian civilians are completely unjustifiable and cannot be allowed?

Do not put words in my mouth, thank you. They can fight the Israeli military all they want, but thats not what Hamas is doing. They are firing rockets towards population centers.

And yes, if there is civilians inside a house with a hamas leader, then they shouldnt bomb it. If theres a risk, but not a certainty, its still allowed under international law. The major difference is in why that target is targetted: Because you want to hurt civilians? Or because you want to take out enemy combatants?

Edit: And thus we are back to my original point. Hamas is worse. They target indiscriminately, at least Israel doesnt systematically go after civilians only. Both sides are still fucktards tho.

So it's ok because Israel go after civilians as well?

Toxic
November 16 2012, 12:23:38 PM
So it's ok because Israel go after civilians as well?

Baddie or troll, cant tell.

rakvard
November 16 2012, 12:27:59 PM
Nothing that Israel does to palestine is allowed under international law

Collective Punishment is illegal
Acquisition of land by force is illegal
Forced population transfer is illegal
Violation of right to self-determination is illegal.

Not to mention the settlements and the killings

Targeting Hamas however is completely legal. You seem to equate a terrorist organisation with the palestinians.
If you're talking about the targeted killing of Ahmed Jabari, that was also illegal under International law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 12:29:56 PM
There are 3 kinds of people:

1) People who are ignorant about the Israeli-palestine conflict and support israel because Israels values superficially seem closer to the Western Ideal
2) People who support Israel because they hate Muslims/darkies.
3) People who oppose what Israel is doing.
4) Support Israel because lesser of two evils.

Varcaus
November 16 2012, 12:30:14 PM
So it's ok because Israel go after civilians as well?

Baddie or troll, cant tell.

With the billions in US weaponry you think they would find a better way to clean out their ghettos then just killing everyone in site.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 12:30:29 PM
There are 3 kinds of people:

1) People who are ignorant about the Israeli-palestine conflict and support israel because Israels values superficially seem closer to the Western Ideal
2) People who support Israel because they hate Muslims/darkies.
3) People who oppose what Israel is doing.
4) Support Israel because lesser of two evils.

The retards then?

Toxic
November 16 2012, 12:30:36 PM
Nothing that Israel does to palestine is allowed under international law

Collective Punishment is illegal
Acquisition of land by force is illegal
Forced population transfer is illegal
Violation of right to self-determination is illegal.

Not to mention the settlements and the killings

Targeting Hamas however is completely legal. You seem to equate a terrorist organisation with the palestinians.
If you're talking about the targeted killing of Ahmed Jabari, that was also illegal under International law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing

He was a military commander.

Would have been illegal if he was a political leader or equivilant (solely), but he organized military operations.

Caldrion Dosto
November 16 2012, 12:32:10 PM
Israel is clearly bad, but Hamas is worse. They fire rockets at civilians, and then hide amongst other civilians.

Both sides needs to duke it out once and for all and be done with it.

Optimally they should just say "fuck it", but we know this isnt going to happen, so the above is the best we can hope for.


Edit: Meanwhile, on the west-bank area the palestinians are the good guys and the israelis the bad guys, hands down. Stop the settlements already.

Can you please elaborate on how Hamas should not "hide behind civilians" when in Gaza there lives 1.7 million people on a area of 365 sq kilometers.

As a reference if you are a Euro etc its a third of the area of the Swedish island of Íland.


Its basically the largest open air prison in the world. Where 50% of the population is under the age of 15. And you wonder why this feeds into extremism?

Toxic
November 16 2012, 12:34:05 PM
Israel is clearly bad, but Hamas is worse. They fire rockets at civilians, and then hide amongst other civilians.

Both sides needs to duke it out once and for all and be done with it.

Optimally they should just say "fuck it", but we know this isnt going to happen, so the above is the best we can hope for.


Edit: Meanwhile, on the west-bank area the palestinians are the good guys and the israelis the bad guys, hands down. Stop the settlements already.

Can you please elaborate on how Hamas should not "hide behind civilians" when in Gaza there lives 1.7 million people on a area of 365 sq kilometers.

As a reference if you are a Euro etc its a third of the area of the Swedish island of Íland.


Its basically the largest open air prison in the world. Where 50% of the population is under the age of 15. And you wonder why this feeds into extremism?

Why would I have to explain how they shouldnt hide behind civilians? They do, and they shouldnt. End of story.

(yes, its hard, but that doesnt make it less wrong)

And Im not at all surprised it feeds extremism. Its pretty much perfect conditions for extremism. Doesnt make it right tho.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 12:37:11 PM
There are 3 kinds of people:

1) People who are ignorant about the Israeli-palestine conflict and support israel because Israels values superficially seem closer to the Western Ideal
2) People who support Israel because they hate Muslims/darkies.
3) People who oppose what Israel is doing.
4) Support Israel because lesser of two evils.

The retards then?

I can't blame people for not caring about a conflict that doesn't directly effect them.

Qui Shon
November 16 2012, 12:38:20 PM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

Hmm.

Israel is the only nation who has killed a Finnish soldier since WW2 in an organized military action. That I can recall anyway.
The dude was a UN peace keeper and they shelled a clearly marked UN outpost for a couple hours. During this time the peeps kept radioing for them to stop but the Israelis went lol nope lets give 'em an airstrike too.

Afterwards Israel went, "oops, sorry".

So, fuck Israel.

Caldrion Dosto
November 16 2012, 12:43:13 PM
Israel is clearly bad, but Hamas is worse. They fire rockets at civilians, and then hide amongst other civilians.

Both sides needs to duke it out once and for all and be done with it.

Optimally they should just say "fuck it", but we know this isnt going to happen, so the above is the best we can hope for.


Edit: Meanwhile, on the west-bank area the palestinians are the good guys and the israelis the bad guys, hands down. Stop the settlements already.

Can you please elaborate on how Hamas should not "hide behind civilians" when in Gaza there lives 1.7 million people on a area of 365 sq kilometers.

As a reference if you are a Euro etc its a third of the area of the Swedish island of Íland.


Its basically the largest open air prison in the world. Where 50% of the population is under the age of 15. And you wonder why this feeds into extremism?

Why would I have to explain how they shouldnt hide behind civilians? They do, and they shouldnt. End of story.

(yes, its hard, but that doesnt make it less wrong)

And Im not at all surprised it feeds extremism. Its pretty much perfect conditions for extremism. Doesnt make it right tho.


Please elaborate on where in Gaza there is a place not full of people. Also please tell me more about the "honourable warriors with swords that should march towards the tanks".

Ofc his will not happen. Its an insurgency. Not pretty but the only way they "can" resist at all. (also resisting an occupier is legal under international law and does no make you a "terrorist organization")


Also one could argue that Hamas has been more succesfull the Fatah in actually achieving something. In Gaza there is no more settlements, in the westbank they are rapidly expanding to a point where in my opinion he two state solution is now dead, and the only way is a one state solution and this makes it inevitable that Israel in the end wil be disolved due to demograpics, in the same manner as apartheid south africa was.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 12:43:28 PM
I can't blame people for not caring about a conflict that doesn't directly effect them.

Ah the ignorance excuse. Yeah almost as bad as the which language is more fun to speak.




I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

Hmm.

Israel is the only nation who has killed a Finnish soldier since WW2 in an organized military action. That I can recall anyway.
The dude was a UN peace keeper and they shelled a clearly marked UN outpost for a couple hours. During this time the peeps kept radioing for them to stop but the Israelis went lol nope lets give 'em an airstrike too.

Afterwards Israel went, "oops, sorry".

So, fuck Israel.

Id say that is a valid excuse.

Toxic
November 16 2012, 12:49:20 PM
Please elaborate on where in Gaza there is a place not full of people. Also please tell me more about the "honourable warriors with swords that should march towards the tanks".

Ofc his will not happen. Its an insurgency. Not pretty but the only way they "can" resist at all. (also resisting an occupier is legal under international law and does no make you a "terrorist organization")


Also one could argue that Hamas has been more succesfull the Fatah in actually achieving something. In Gaza there is no more settlements, in the westbank they are rapidly expanding to a point where in my opinion he two state solution is now dead, and the only way is a one state solution and this makes it inevitable that Israel in the end wil be disolved due to demograpics, in the same manner as apartheid south africa was.

It would be pretty much impossible not to endanger civilians for Hamas. Again, that doesnt make it right.

As for insurgency, they have every right to fire on israeli military. The rockets targeting population centers, meant for causing as many civilians deaths as possible, is however not okay, and is what makes them terrorists.

Also, Im pro two state solution. Its the only viable way imo. Wether gaza becomes part of Palestine or Egypt tho I dont know nor care.

Anyways, dont mix up the lawful resistance against aggression that the palestinians are doing, and the targeting of civilians that the terrorists of Hamas is doing.

Traxio Nacho
November 16 2012, 12:52:33 PM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

Hmm.

Israel is the only nation who has killed a Finnish soldier since WW2 in an organized military action. That I can recall anyway.
The dude was a UN peace keeper and they shelled a clearly marked UN outpost for a couple hours. During this time the peeps kept radioing for them to stop but the Israelis went lol nope lets give 'em an airstrike too.

Afterwards Israel went, "oops, sorry".

So, fuck Israel.

Only one lost since WW2? Or only one lost to "friendly" fire? Do Finland just not get involved in any military activity? Or have the learn to duck very well whenever the American's start shooting?

Caldrion Dosto
November 16 2012, 12:54:13 PM
Please elaborate on where in Gaza there is a place not full of people. Also please tell me more about the "honourable warriors with swords that should march towards the tanks".

Ofc his will not happen. Its an insurgency. Not pretty but the only way they "can" resist at all. (also resisting an occupier is legal under international law and does no make you a "terrorist organization")


Also one could argue that Hamas has been more succesfull the Fatah in actually achieving something. In Gaza there is no more settlements, in the westbank they are rapidly expanding to a point where in my opinion he two state solution is now dead, and the only way is a one state solution and this makes it inevitable that Israel in the end wil be disolved due to demograpics, in the same manner as apartheid south africa was.

It would be pretty much impossible not to endanger civilians for Hamas. Again, that doesnt make it right.

As for insurgency, they have every right to fire on israeli military. The rockets targeting population centers, meant for causing as many civilians deaths as possible, is however not okay, and is what makes them terrorists.

Also, Im pro two state solution. Its the only viable way imo. Wether gaza becomes part of Palestine or Egypt tho I dont know nor care.

Anyways, dont mix up the lawful resistance against aggression that the palestinians are doing, and the targeting of civilians that the terrorists of Hamas is doing.

I guess we have to disagree on what resisting means then. But you are trying to make Israel and Hamas look equal in terms of power witch is ludicrous.

Israel kills Palestinian civilians on a daily basis the rockets are there to try to deter that, and retaliate. And make life difficult fore Israelis, thus force them to negotiate.

What you are demanding is that Palestinians stop doing anything and then hope for Israel's good grace. That will never give the Palestinians any kind of peace settlement. And the two state solution will die with Abbas. (most likely the Palestinian authority will be dissolved with his death as well)

tekai
November 16 2012, 12:55:26 PM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

Hmm.

Israel is the only nation who has killed a Finnish soldier since WW2 in an organized military action. That I can recall anyway.
The dude was a UN peace keeper and they shelled a clearly marked UN outpost for a couple hours. During this time the peeps kept radioing for them to stop but the Israelis went lol nope lets give 'em an airstrike too.

Afterwards Israel went, "oops, sorry".

So, fuck Israel.

Only one lost since WW2? Or only one lost to "friendly" fire? Do Finland just not get involved in any military activity? Or have the learn to duck very well whenever the American's start shooting?

partially due to friendly neighbours (СССР) they opted to stay neutral after WW2

Warpath
November 16 2012, 12:55:40 PM
BBC displaying their usual high quality and well researched footage again then? (watch closely)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qSaHKzDaw

Lallante
November 16 2012, 12:57:11 PM
Israel is clearly bad, but Hamas is worse. They fire rockets at civilians, and then hide amongst other civilians.

Both sides needs to duke it out once and for all and be done with it.

Optimally they should just say "fuck it", but we know this isnt going to happen, so the above is the best we can hope for.


Edit: Meanwhile, on the west-bank area the palestinians are the good guys and the israelis the bad guys, hands down. Stop the settlements already.

Can you please elaborate on how Hamas should not "hide behind civilians" when in Gaza there lives 1.7 million people on a area of 365 sq kilometers.

As a reference if you are a Euro etc its a third of the area of the Swedish island of Íland.


Its basically the largest open air prison in the world. Where 50% of the population is under the age of 15. And you wonder why this feeds into extremism?

Why would I have to explain how they shouldnt hide behind civilians? They do, and they shouldnt. End of story.

(yes, its hard, but that doesnt make it less wrong)

And Im not at all surprised it feeds extremism. Its pretty much perfect conditions for extremism. Doesnt make it right tho.

They should just let the Israelis slowley kill them off, taking their land town by town as the decades go by

Lallante
November 16 2012, 12:57:51 PM
BBC displaying their usual high quality and well researched footage again then? (watch closely)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qSaHKzDaw

Probably running out of good cameramen as the Israelis keep killing them/their families.

Warpath
November 16 2012, 01:00:00 PM
BBC displaying their usual high quality and well researched footage again then? (watch closely)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qSaHKzDaw

Probably running out of good cameramen as the Israelis keep killing them/their families.

And running out of editors / management as they get sacked for boradcasting total shit?

Toxic
November 16 2012, 01:01:00 PM
What you are demanding is that Palestinians stop doing anything and then hope for Israel's good grace. That will never give the Palestinians any kind of peace settlement. And the two state solution will die with Abbas. (most likely the Palestinian authority will be dissolved with his death as well)

I love how you make up something I never said. Thanks bro.

Israel is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Hamas is just worse, because their rockets are exclusively meant to target israeli civilians.

Again, I do not equal Hamas and the palestinians. The palestinians have a right to resist.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:01:20 PM
There are 3 kinds of people:

1) People who are ignorant about the Israeli-palestine conflict and support israel because Israels values superficially seem closer to the Western Ideal
2) People who support Israel because they hate Muslims/darkies.
3) People who oppose what Israel is doing.
4) Support Israel because lesser of two evils.

The retards then?

I can't blame people for not caring about a conflict that doesn't directly effect them.

The only people in the world this conflict doesnt affect are people who live in the wilderness and have never been on a aeroplane flight.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Reminded of this article from a while ago from (now discredited journo) Johann Hari

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html

He did a great podcast series (available on itunes) with the second episode being an interview with this dude in the article above. Alas i think its been expunged from the internet

I defy any of the pro-Israel guys in this thread to read this and come up with a compelling argument why its wrong and Israel is right (the author is an Israeli Jew whose father escaped Germany in 1939):


“I want to be proud of my country,” he says. “I am an Israeli patriot. I want us to do the right thing.” So this requires him to point out that Palestinian violence is – in truth – much more limited than Israeli violence, and usually a reaction to it. “The first twenty years of the occupation passed quietly, and we did not lift a finger to end it. Instead, under cover of the quiet, we built the enormous, criminal settlement enterprise,” where Palestinian land is seized by Jewish religious fundamentalists who claim it was given to them by God. Only then – after a long period of theft, and after their attempts at peaceful resistance were met with brutal violence - did the Palestinians become violent themselves. “What would happen if the Palestinians had not fired Qassams [the rockets shot at Southern Israel, including civilian towns]? Would Israel have lifted the economic siege? Nonsense. If the Gazans were sitting quietly, as Israel expects them to do, their case would disappear from the agenda. Nobody would give any thought to the fate of the people of Gaza if they had not behaved violently.”

He unequivocally condemns the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians, but adds: “The Qassams have a context. They are almost always fired after an IDF assassination operation, and there have been many of these.” Yet the Israeli attitude is that “we are allowed to bomb anything we want but they are not allowed to launch Qassams.” It is a view summarised by Haim Ramon, the justice minister at time of Second Lebanon War: “We are allowed to destroy everything.”

Even the terms we use to discuss Operation Cast Lead are wrong, Levy argues. “That wasn’t a war. It was a brutal assault on a helpless, imprisoned population. You can call a match between Mike Tyson and a 5 year old child boxing, but the proportions, oh, the proportions.” Israel “frequently targeted medical crews, [and] shelled a UN-run school that served as a shelter for residents, who bled to death over days as the IDF prevented their evacuation by shooting and shelling... A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organisation. They say as a justification that Hamas hides among the civilian population. As if the Defence Ministry in Tel Aviv is not located in the heart of a civilian population! As if there are places in Gaza that are not in the heart of a civilian population!”



And re: Peace Talks


These supposed ‘friends of Israel’ are in practice friends of Islamic fundamentalism, he believes. “Why do they have to give the fundamentalists more excuses, more fury, more opportunities, more recruits? Look at Gaza. Gaza was totally secular not long ago. Now you can hardly get alcohol today in Gaza, after all the brutality. Religious fundamentalism is always the language people turn to in despair, if everything else fails. If Gaza had been a free society it would not have become like this. We gave them recruits.”

Levy believes the greatest myth – the one hanging over the Middle East like perfume sprayed onto a corpse – is the idea of the current ‘peace talks’ led by the United States. There was a time when he too believed in them. At the height of the Oslo talks in the 1990s, when Yitzhak Rabin negotiated with Yassir Arafat, “at the end of a visit I turned and, in a gesture straight out of the movies, waved Gaza farewell. Goodbye occupied Gaza, farewell! We are never to meet again, at least not in your occupied state. How foolish!”

Now, he says, he is convinced it was “a scam” from the start, doomed to fail. How does he know? “There is a very simple litmus test for any peace talks. A necessity for peace is for Israel to dismantle settlements in the West Bank. So if you are going to dismantle settlements soon, you’d stop building more now, right? They carried on building them all through Oslo. And today, Netanyahu is refusing to freeze construction, the barest of the bare minimum. It tells you all you need.”


And in conclusion:

After saying this, he falls silent, and we stare at each other for a while. Then he says, in a quieter voice: “The facts are clear. Israel has no real intention of quitting the territories or allowing the Palestinian people to exercise their rights. No change will come to pass in the complacent, belligerent, and condescending Israel of today. This is the time to come up with a rehabilitation programme for Israel.”

pBump
November 16 2012, 01:14:28 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 01:14:33 PM
There are 3 kinds of people:

1) People who are ignorant about the Israeli-palestine conflict and support israel because Israels values superficially seem closer to the Western Ideal
2) People who support Israel because they hate Muslims/darkies.
3) People who oppose what Israel is doing.
4) Support Israel because lesser of two evils.

The retards then?

I can't blame people for not caring about a conflict that doesn't directly effect them.

The only people in the world this conflict doesnt affect are people who live in the wilderness and have never been on a aeroplane flight.

I said Directly.

Someone dies in Gaza, It doesn't change what I have to do during the day. Sure the politics effect us eventually, if at all. But really what happens in Gaza has no bearing on your average citizen in NA. People like to pretend they care, and they like to take a position on it. Because thats what western societies do. But, no, it doesn't effect me. Barring a nuclear strike or Israel being destroyed, in witch case my tax dollars no longer get spent defending it.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 01:15:47 PM
You , yes you. You're whats wrong with today society.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 01:17:34 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Helavus
November 16 2012, 01:18:07 PM
Israel every day, being a londoner who gets off the tube at Aldgate station mon-fri (7/7 bombing) any group who supports the use of / trains suicide bombers against civilians going about their everyday lives should burn.

Obviously Israel kill civilians too, but thats because every muslim family seem to have about 500 kids by 10 underage wives, therefore increasing the chances of killing a few of them. Extreme i may seem, but I would love there to be peace in the world.

rakvard
November 16 2012, 01:19:31 PM
Nothing that Israel does to palestine is allowed under international law

Collective Punishment is illegal
Acquisition of land by force is illegal
Forced population transfer is illegal
Violation of right to self-determination is illegal.

Not to mention the settlements and the killings

Targeting Hamas however is completely legal. You seem to equate a terrorist organisation with the palestinians.
If you're talking about the targeted killing of Ahmed Jabari, that was also illegal under International law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing

He was a military commander.

Would have been illegal if he was a political leader or equivilant (solely), but he organized military operations.

That would be true if Gaza was classed as an independent state with it's own military but that's not the case.
Hamas is classed by most of the world as a terrorist organisation and under International law he should have answered for any crimes he committed in a court of law.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:22:38 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.

Me
November 16 2012, 01:23:57 PM
Terrorist has such negative connotations. A far more accurate title is freedom fighters or resistance.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:24:24 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Islamic fundamentalist terrorism as it exists in the world today would either not exist at all, or be a tiny shadow of itself if a 2-state settlement had been reached at Oslo or at any of the other opportunities.

I'm going out on a limb, but I'd say September 11 wouldn't have happened either.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 01:25:02 PM
FWIW, if your life is falling apart, i feel for you and wish you better times.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

It sucks when someone dies. Yes. But people are being killed on both sides, why should I only care about deaths on one or the other?

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 01:26:18 PM
FWIW, if your life is falling apart, i feel for you and wish you better times.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

It sucks when someone dies. Yes. But people are being killed on both sides, why should I only care about deaths on one or the other?

Because thats the human thing to do. Such distinct lack of empathy is frightening.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:27:25 PM
FWIW, if your life is falling apart, i feel for you and wish you better times.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

It sucks when someone dies. Yes. But people are being killed on both sides, why should I only care about deaths on one or the other?

Beyond the basic empathy one feels for the rest of humanity, fair enough, you shouldn't

What you SHOULD care about is the underlying political conflict.

evil edna
November 16 2012, 01:27:33 PM
why are jews so evil?

Smuggo
November 16 2012, 01:29:50 PM
Is Jason's marriage in trouble?

Me
November 16 2012, 01:29:55 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Islamic fundamentalist terrorism as it exists in the world today would either not exist at all, or be a tiny shadow of itself if a 2-state settlement had been reached at Oslo or at any of the other opportunities.
I'm going out on a limb, but I'd say September 11 wouldn't have happened either.

So this was true!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Q33NY.png

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 01:30:09 PM
FWIW, if your life is falling apart, i feel for you and wish you better times.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

It sucks when someone dies. Yes. But people are being killed on both sides, why should I only care about deaths on one or the other?

Caring about people I know nothing about and cant help just stresses me out. I'd rather focus on area's and people I can influence. My brain would melt if I cared the same about everyone in the world on the same level I do my friends and family. Yes people die, it sucks.

Because thats the human thing to do. Such distinct lack of empathy is frightening.

It's not a lack of empathy, it's a conservation of it. Caring about people whom you don't know and have no hope of ever helping will only cause you undue stress and lead to suffering on your part without assisting the people you're caring about. If I knew someone in the area then yes, I might be concerned, but lacking that what exactly is the value in allowing oneself to feel grief for what is essentially an abstract, faceless statistic? Empathy is touted as the ultimate virtue of humanity but there are times when the reduction of sympathy allows for a more clearheaded assessment of the situation. At the very least it keeps me happier.

TL;DR Caring about billions of people the same way I do about my friends and family would melt my brain.

edit: FORAM ATE MY POAST.

Roam
November 16 2012, 01:36:54 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Stop posting here then if all you want to say is how little you care about it.

Also, can you please just for once stop embodying EVERY single aspect of the "stupid, uneducated, selfish American" stereotype?

Edit: Zeekar, king of jews. I see what you did there.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 01:41:00 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Stop posting here then if all you want to say is how little you care about it.

Also, can you please just for once stop embodying EVERY single aspect of the "stupid, uneducated, selfish American" stereotype?

Edit: Zeekar, king of jews. I see what you did there.

Nope. Not until people stop assuming every instance of every American ever is the ultra conservative version of America I wont stop.
http://i.imgur.com/XJEIJ.jpg

Please note the German sub-machine gun and the russian rocket launcher.

pBump
November 16 2012, 01:43:33 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.



Lets all take a moment to appreciate the guy who played the Nazi card in a thread about Israel defending itself.

Christ almighty.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:44:33 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Stop posting here then if all you want to say is how little you care about it.

Also, can you please just for once stop embodying EVERY single aspect of the "stupid, uneducated, selfish American" stereotype?

Edit: Zeekar, king of jews. I see what you did there.

Nope. Not until people stop assuming every instance of every American ever is the ultra conservative version of America I wont stop.
http://i.imgur.com/XJEIJ.jpg

Please note the German sub-machine gun and the russian rocket launcher.

You come across like a pretty typical conservative, so you aren't doing much to dispel that impression.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 01:45:05 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.



Lets all take a moment to appreciate the guy who played the Nazi card in a thread about Israel defending itself.

Christ almighty.

This is one of the only discussions where comparisons to the Nazis are completely and utterly appropriate.

pBump
November 16 2012, 01:47:28 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.



Lets all take a moment to appreciate the guy who played the Nazi card in a thread about Israel defending itself.

Christ almighty.

This is one of the only discussions where comparisons to the Nazis are completely and utterly appropriate.



Oh man. Please do go on.


Draw as many parallels as you can between Israels situation in the Middle East, and Nazi Germany.

Qui Shon
November 16 2012, 01:53:23 PM
I'm on Israel's side.

Hebrew is way more fun to speak than Arabic.

And we have the most retarded reason to pick a side in a conflict.

Any body who can top it?

Hmm.

Israel is the only nation who has killed a Finnish soldier since WW2 in an organized military action. That I can recall anyway.
The dude was a UN peace keeper and they shelled a clearly marked UN outpost for a couple hours. During this time the peeps kept radioing for them to stop but the Israelis went lol nope lets give 'em an airstrike too.

Afterwards Israel went, "oops, sorry".

So, fuck Israel.

Only one lost since WW2? Or only one lost to "friendly" fire? Do Finland just not get involved in any military activity? Or have the learn to duck very well whenever the American's start shooting?

partially due to friendly neighbours (СССР) they opted to stay neutral after WW2

"Friendly" should be in quotations, as Soviet invasion was a very real threat post WW2, and we couldn't afford to piss them off so neutrality it was. But yeah, only peacekeeping (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Suomen_rauhanturvaoperaatioista) for Finland. We almost joined Gulf War 2 with a small force when our leadership had their noses up the ass of the USA, but thankfully these "secret plans" were leaked to the press and public opinion put a stop to that. (The whistleblower of course was removed from office) The right wing has been trying to push us towards NATO for a long time and if they ever succeed we'd no doubt join Gulf War 3, but lets hope they don't succeed.

EDIT: Oops, didn't notice this got put in srsbzns, bit OT this.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 01:54:04 PM
What this seems like is the standard Parental Abuse cycle. Father beats his son, son grows up has a kid who he beats. Cept instead of beating, its genocide!

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 02:07:01 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.



Lets all take a moment to appreciate the guy who played the Nazi card in a thread about Israel defending itself.

Christ almighty.

The israel state is more like the nazi german state than anywhere else in the world. Highly militirized, high technology facism with a divinity complex.

Also forcing racial purity lately. Too many parallels to ignore really.

Sofia Roseburn
November 16 2012, 02:07:03 PM
Does this look like it is still in General Chat to you?

Lallante
November 16 2012, 02:36:21 PM
What this seems like is the standard Parental Abuse cycle. Father beats his son, son grows up has a kid who he beats. Cept instead of beating, its genocide!

Only sensible thing you've said in this thread. Perhaps ethnic cleansing is a more appropriate word than genocide.

Sacul
November 16 2012, 02:43:07 PM
Im on the edge of my own life falling apart. I can't be arsed to care about two religious groups at each others throats thousands of miles away.

Tell me, why should I give two shits? What does me caring do for the situation? If I take a side what does that do for the side? What effect is my caring going to have?

Islamic fundamentalist terrorism as it exists in the world today would either not exist at all, or be a tiny shadow of itself if a 2-state settlement had been reached at Oslo or at any of the other opportunities.

I'm going out on a limb, but I'd say September 11 wouldn't have happened either.

On a limb yes
Read Edward Said or Tariq Ali: Clash of Fundamentalisms: Crusades, Jihads and Modernity (2002)




p.s.
By your logic there wouldnt be any terorrism if the Arab states would have accepted the1948 orders and didnt try to whipe Israel of themap.

This thread is a repeat of what we had on shc/fhc before. The problem was magnified manyfold by the way the arab states threated the palestinian refugees. The palestinians should also stop breading like rabbits on crack.
Its a multi generation demograpic war in the eyes of miltary israeli's.

Sacul
November 16 2012, 02:55:56 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.



Lets all take a moment to appreciate the guy who played the Nazi card in a thread about Israel defending itself.

Christ almighty.

The israel state is more like the nazi german state than anywhere else in the world. Highly militirized, high technology facism with a divinity complex.

Also forcing racial purity lately. Too many parallels to ignore really.

Nt really its also a strong civil society with strong debates back and forth. Israeli society isnt homogenous by a long shot. Go visit and you will see. What makes people shit bricks over there is the real threath of a jewish civil war.

KathDougans
November 16 2012, 03:09:12 PM
I read an article on the BBC news a while back, about Jewish militants in the West Bank:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19601311


Mark Regev, spokesman for Israeli Prime Minster Benjamin Netanyahu, said the price-taggers would be stopped.
"If these extremists succeed - if you have, heaven forbid, a mosque or something goes up in smoke, this could promote extremism on their side and you could have a terrible impact. We've got to stamp these phenomena out."

Concern about things that could promote Palestinian extremism seems a bit out of step with current actions elsewhere.

So what is the story there ? Is this part of what Sacul mentioned about the possibility of a Jewish civil war ?


Another thing, was on the radio, someone talked about how mobilising reservists for the possibility of ground action in Gaza, is also useful in case the Israelis wish for a strike on Iran, since the reservists would be already active.

Victoria Steckersaurus
November 16 2012, 03:15:23 PM
The problem was magnified manyfold by the way the arab states threated the palestinian refugees.

This is an important detail. Despite having lots of "friendly" neighbors, the Palestinians really have no where to go. The other arab powers really don't care about them except as an excuse to bludgoen israel. If that conflict ever ends, they lose a major rhetorical tool. But any time palestinians have to flee into nearby countries, they get stuck in refugee camps, prevented from any sort of assimilation, etc.

Zeekar
November 16 2012, 03:53:24 PM
Nt really its also a strong civil society with strong debates back and forth. Israeli society isnt homogenous by a long shot. Go visit and you will see. What makes people shit bricks over there is the real threath of a jewish civil war.

I was talking about the state not society. My comment is mostly directed on the notion that they threw out a bunch of African immigrants out of the country for the reason that they well werent jewish to put it bluntly.

Lallante
November 16 2012, 03:57:14 PM
The problem was magnified manyfold by the way the arab states threated the palestinian refugees.

This is an important detail. Despite having lots of "friendly" neighbors, the Palestinians really have no where to go. The other arab powers really don't care about them except as an excuse to bludgoen israel. If that conflict ever ends, they lose a major rhetorical tool. But any time palestinians have to flee into nearby countries, they get stuck in refugee camps, prevented from any sort of assimilation, etc.

Giving the palestinians "somewhere else to go" is hardly a solution

Aurora148
November 16 2012, 04:06:24 PM
The conflict is going to be locked in the status quo for the foreseeable future due to extremists on both sides.

Palestinian leaders who talk of compromise with Israel get threatened with murder by anti-israel extremists who don't care about anything else.

Israel's parliamentary system means that it is very difficult to form a functioning coalition government without including the Ultra-zionists; who believe that the land of Israel was literally given to them by god and the Palestinians are just bothersome rodents infesting their land.

Then there are the apologists of both sides who are far more interested in apportioning blame than actually getting anything done.

Cool09
November 16 2012, 04:10:04 PM
The problem was magnified manyfold by the way the arab states threated the palestinian refugees.

This is an important detail. Despite having lots of "friendly" neighbors, the Palestinians really have no where to go. The other arab powers really don't care about them except as an excuse to bludgoen israel. If that conflict ever ends, they lose a major rhetorical tool. But any time palestinians have to flee into nearby countries, they get stuck in refugee camps, prevented from any sort of assimilation, etc.

Giving the palestinians "somewhere else to go" is hardly a solution

...but it might have prevented the hate spiral that has resulted in decades of violence.

Hast
November 16 2012, 04:13:55 PM
...and let Israel know that they basically can do whatever the fuck they want without ramifications.

Victoria Steckersaurus
November 16 2012, 04:34:56 PM
The problem was magnified manyfold by the way the arab states threated the palestinian refugees.

This is an important detail. Despite having lots of "friendly" neighbors, the Palestinians really have no where to go. The other arab powers really don't care about them except as an excuse to bludgoen israel. If that conflict ever ends, they lose a major rhetorical tool. But any time palestinians have to flee into nearby countries, they get stuck in refugee camps, prevented from any sort of assimilation, etc.

Giving the palestinians "somewhere else to go" is hardly a solution

I never said that it was, merely that it is evidence that other nations are more interested in the conflict than in the people. Even if Israel and Palestine somehow decide that killing each other is a bad idea, there will be a lot of resistance from other arab nations. Even if they get a peace deal in place, there's nothing stopping syria/egypt/iran/etc from supporting another extremist palestinian group blowing up a synagogue and getting the war/occupation started again.

If a peace deal is ever implemented, Palestine will need to rapidly transition from it's current clusterfuck into a strong enough state to police itself and prevent said terrorism. That's almost certainly not going to happen. The only possible hope would be that post-peace deal terrorism would be directed at the palestinians that got it done, thus turning public opinion against the extremists. But with israel right there and an easy target, it makes much more sense to hit them, keep (some) popular support, destabilize the entire thing again.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 04:35:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gDohNq9BORo

Lallante
November 16 2012, 05:21:45 PM
The problem was magnified manyfold by the way the arab states threated the palestinian refugees.

This is an important detail. Despite having lots of "friendly" neighbors, the Palestinians really have no where to go. The other arab powers really don't care about them except as an excuse to bludgoen israel. If that conflict ever ends, they lose a major rhetorical tool. But any time palestinians have to flee into nearby countries, they get stuck in refugee camps, prevented from any sort of assimilation, etc.

Giving the palestinians "somewhere else to go" is hardly a solution

I never said that it was, merely that it is evidence that other nations are more interested in the conflict than in the people. Even if Israel and Palestine somehow decide that killing each other is a bad idea, there will be a lot of resistance from other arab nations. Even if they get a peace deal in place, there's nothing stopping syria/egypt/iran/etc from supporting another extremist palestinian group blowing up a synagogue and getting the war/occupation started again.

If a peace deal is ever implemented, Palestine will need to rapidly transition from it's current clusterfuck into a strong enough state to police itself and prevent said terrorism. That's almost certainly not going to happen. The only possible hope would be that post-peace deal terrorism would be directed at the palestinians that got it done, thus turning public opinion against the extremists. But with israel right there and an easy target, it makes much more sense to hit them, keep (some) popular support, destabilize the entire thing again.

What does the attitude of other arab states have to do with whether Israel is wrong?

Victoria Steckersaurus
November 16 2012, 05:34:46 PM
What does the attitude of other arab states have to do with whether Israel is wrong?

Nothing. I don't think they're in the right on this or any number of issues. However -

You have a particularly one-track mind. Not every post in this thread is about whether israel is wrong. It turns out the mess is somewhat more complicated than that.

But -

Let's pretend that my post does somehow relate to an argument that Israel is right or wrong. The conclusion of my analysis (which you're welcome to argue with, it's hardly ironclad) is that peace will never happen, and if it does, it won't last. Palestine, in some form or fashion, will always be lobbing rockets into Israel.

Now, you're Israel. You've concluded that peace is a pipe dream, and that there will always be Palestinians trying to kill you.

What do you do?

Varcaus
November 16 2012, 05:38:07 PM
Your a lost cause wait to die and then hope someone else isn't

pBump
November 16 2012, 05:39:51 PM
It's always interesting to me when I hear people argue that Israel should be reacting in a different way when rockets are falling in Tel Aviv.


There is no police force to control the Gaza Strip. There isn't anybody else who's going to come along and say "Hey! Stop shooting rockets you're getting people killed!"

How, precisely, do you suggest Israel handle what's happening in the West Bank right now?



And more to the point, What does Israel stand to gain from taking a kinder-gentler approach? The countries around them will despise them regardless.

Jason Marshall
November 16 2012, 05:48:32 PM
It's always interesting to me when I hear people argue that Israel should be reacting in a different way when rockets are falling in Tel Aviv.


There is no police force to control the Gaza Strip. There isn't anybody else who's going to come along and say "Hey! Stop shooting rockets you're getting people killed!"

How, precisely, do you suggest Israel handle what's happening in the West Bank right now?



And more to the point, What does Israel stand to gain from taking a kinder-gentler approach? The countries around them will despise them regardless.

They should stop eating and burn themselves in the streets until Hamas realizes the error of their ways.

Sacul
November 16 2012, 05:51:42 PM
This just in: Israel defends itself!

Palestinians shoot rockets from back yard of house then wail the streets when their house gets blown up.

What the fuck do people think is going to happen?

Pretty sure this is what people said when, after French Resistance killed a Gestapo officer, the Nazi's executed a 3000 person town.



Lets all take a moment to appreciate the guy who played the Nazi card in a thread about Israel defending itself.

Christ almighty.

The israel state is more like the nazi german state than anywhere else in the world. Highly militirized, high technology facism with a divinity complex.

Also forcing racial purity lately. Too many parallels to ignore really.

Nt really its also a strong civil society with strong debates back and forth. Israeli society isnt homogenous by a long shot. Go visit and you will see. What makes people shit bricks over there is the real threath of a jewish civil war.

State, not society. Important difference.
"strong debates" as opposed to "weak debates"? Can you expand please?

ow im sorry i didnt make myself clear.
It has democratic debate, a pluriform society, free speech, a non-partial judicial system, etc etc needi expand more because comparing the state to nazi germany is idiotic. I have allready stated in several threads that i agree its a slow genocide and i dont agree with the state policy and especially not the religious nutters. The remark about civil war was aimed at them and is the main reason the ultra orthodox are getting the leeway they are having.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A5ZSNSmCUAEYUDt.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7btMSrCIAMSwHU.jpg:large
:popcorn:

Varcaus
November 16 2012, 05:53:12 PM
derp this is srs busniess now

Tiny
November 16 2012, 05:53:48 PM
It's always interesting to me when I hear people argue that Israel should be reacting in a different way when rockets are falling in Tel Aviv.


There is no police force to control the Gaza Strip. There isn't anybody else who's going to come along and say "Hey! Stop shooting rockets you're getting people killed!"

How, precisely, do you suggest Israel handle what's happening in the West Bank right now?



And more to the point, What does Israel stand to gain from taking a kinder-gentler approach? The countries around them will despise them regardless.

Dosn't it not go both ways, when Israel bombs the shit out of Gaza can't they fire some rockets back as a token retailiation.

Sofia Roseburn
November 16 2012, 05:57:28 PM
Remember where you are and post appropriately or I'll start dropping access.

pBump
November 16 2012, 06:04:19 PM
It's always interesting to me when I hear people argue that Israel should be reacting in a different way when rockets are falling in Tel Aviv.


There is no police force to control the Gaza Strip. There isn't anybody else who's going to come along and say "Hey! Stop shooting rockets you're getting people killed!"

How, precisely, do you suggest Israel handle what's happening in the West Bank right now?



And more to the point, What does Israel stand to gain from taking a kinder-gentler approach? The countries around them will despise them regardless.

Dosn't it not go both ways, when Israel bombs the shit out of Gaza can't they fire some rockets back as a token retailiation.


That's just it though, there's nobody to act on behalf of Gaza or the Palestinians who live there. It's not retaliation on behalf of a country or even a people. It's just militants using them as a meat shield to lob rockets into Israel.

These rockets that they are shooting now, they're Iranian. Who even knows if the guys manning the batteries are actually Palestinians.

There's no reasonable expectation of peace. Only actions and reactions.

Tiny
November 16 2012, 06:10:50 PM
It's always interesting to me when I hear people argue that Israel should be reacting in a different way when rockets are falling in Tel Aviv.


There is no police force to control the Gaza Strip. There isn't anybody else who's going to come along and say "Hey! Stop shooting rockets you're getting people killed!"

How, precisely, do you suggest Israel handle what's happening in the West Bank right now?



And more to the point, What does Israel stand to gain from taking a kinder-gentler approach? The countries around them will despise them regardless.

Dosn't it not go both ways, when Israel bombs the shit out of Gaza can't they fire some rockets back as a token retailiation.


That's just it though, there's nobody to act on behalf of Gaza or the Palestinians who live there. It's not retaliation on behalf of a country or even a people. It's just militants using them as a meat shield to lob rockets into Israel.

These rockets that they are shooting now, they're Iranian. Who even knows if the guys manning the batteries are actually Palestinians.

There's no reasonable expectation of peace. Only actions and reactions.

So the Israel can drop bomb on the schools, hospitals and mosques of Gaza because they are a state but the Palestinians when the reply can only be terrorists, because they're state was taken from them by the people who are killing them?

edit: The people of Gaza might use rockets from Iran, the people of Israel use bombs from the USA...so what?

LobbyZ
November 16 2012, 06:16:06 PM
People siding with Israel are either actual jews or just plain ignorant. You say Hamas is killing people and whatnot but have you ever thought that, maybe, it is Israels fault that it is happening? Look at what they're doing to the palestinians, they're controlling the food, the money (they(Israel) threatened to take their(palestinians) tax money if they kept going to the UN) which shows how they are controlling it. Israel has that Iron Drone thingy installed all over the place and it has clearly shown that it is working, why do people keep bringing up 1 million israelis under fire everyday? Nobody ever thinks about how the palestinians are starving or how they have no jobs or how they keep getting killed by the jews and getting their land stolen without any way except joining Hamas to stop it.

This whole Israel thing reminds me of something that happened some 60 years ago, i believe it is called World War II. Hitler wanted Germany to be aryan, Hitler needed a scrapegoat so Hitler blamed the jews for it because at the time, and now, they controlled the financial institutions and whatnot so it was easy for them to get the people to rise up against them. As is Israel doing right now in the UN and worldwide, they are saying it is the palestinians fault, they've built a wall around the place, setup checkpoints and whatnot. I amwaiting for the camps tbh.

Regarding today with the missile fires, they shot over what, 600 missiles?, and killed 3 Israelis. Israel hit back and killed over 19 people and wounded many more. Israel is basically doing false flag attacks, lying about stuff that never happens and most people know this is because they want to show Iran they mean busniess. Israel is also applying the old bully tactic "WHY ARE YOU HITTING YOURSELF, WHY ARE YOU HITTING YOURSELF". I say that for a middle east that would work would be a major change of leadership in both Israeli and Palestinian governments.

And don't come here and say Israel is so powerful nobody will mess with them and everyone will die if they attack because it is not true, Israel has US backup, if that backup does not arrive, Israel will die. Simple as that. If you still don't think like that then imagine this (i am going into iran now) USA invaded Iraq with superior numbers, superior tactics, superior technology and superior morale (911 did happen). If Israel becomes stupid enough to invade Iran, it would be the end of both nations as Iran has a more batshit insane population with batshit insane armies with better technology than Iraqis plus the whole batshit insane thing.

As i said, they both need a major political change if they want to survive in Middle East.

-LobbyZ

cullnean
November 16 2012, 06:17:19 PM
I have some issue with people basically saying the jews can do what ever the fuck they want, and let's face it they do, if ground forces go in and we sit on our hands, ill be deeply ashamed of the west.



Tapatalk crew

pBump
November 16 2012, 06:35:38 PM
Does it make any strategic, political, or economic sense for the US to abandon Israel?

No it doesn't.


We're not going to screw over one of our closest allies to make nice with people who mostly hate us.

With US backing Israel is untouchable. That's why Iran can't be allowed to have nukes, it's the only trump card that would give them a shot at wiping Israel off the map.



There will, without a doubt, be war over this very issue in the next 10 years.

Hast
November 16 2012, 06:44:30 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?

Tiny
November 16 2012, 06:46:49 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?

If it's for the good of Haliburton, why would you even question?

Victoria Steckersaurus
November 16 2012, 06:47:10 PM
-LobbyZ

But what do you do in the current situation? You've got two groups, either time one attacks the other, they retaliate. In that circumstance, it's up to one side or the other to decide to quit the retaliatory cycle.

Now here's a hitch: One of these sides has a long memory and is willing to keep attacking even if the other isn't retaliating.

Now we'll grant that even if it isn't actively bombarding them, Israel is still oppressing them, and the Palestinians are retaliating against that.

So we can tell the Israelis to quit oppressing Palestine, but what happens if they do? The embargo/blockade ends, but the Palestinians and their long memories are still pissed off, and now they can get their hands on real weapons. Sucks to be an israeli civilian when a cruise missile hits Tel Aviv.

Is Israel in the wrong keeping the Palestinians under its boot? Absolutely. Did they create the bed they're sleeping in? Pretty much. Do they deserve any sympathy for it? Not really.

Would it be reasonable to expect a sovereign government to take action which it believes might endanger its citizens? Not really. As long as the Israeli government considers Palestine a threat, they'll keep their boot down.



In the very long run, they'd probably be better off quitting the whole oppression thing, surviving whatever consequences it might bring, and working toward eventual peace. However, given the possbility of really nasty consequences in the short run, and the fact that Jerusalem remains a point of contention in the peace process, that's a potentially huge risk to take for a peaceful future that might be impossible to achieve.

As we've seen here in the US, very few people politicians are willing to accept the short term pain needed for an improved future, and we're not even dealing with matters of life and death.

Cool09
November 16 2012, 06:49:54 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?

If you are replying to pbump's post above, he was talking about the issue with Iran... not sure where you are coming from.

cullnean
November 16 2012, 06:53:59 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?

If you are replying to pbump's post above, he was talking about the issue with Iran... not sure where you are coming from.

Well is it ok?

No its not

Tapatalk crew

Cool09
November 16 2012, 06:59:39 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?

If you are replying to pbump's post above, he was talking about the issue with Iran... not sure where you are coming from.

Well is it ok?

No its not

Tapatalk crew

Fucking over Iran's nuclear program is ok. If Iran get's nukes we'll be nicely setup for armageddon.

Tiny
November 16 2012, 07:02:06 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?

If you are replying to pbump's post above, he was talking about the issue with Iran... not sure where you are coming from.

Well is it ok?

No its not

Tapatalk crew

Fucking over Iran's nuclear program is ok. If Iran get's nukes we'll be nicely setup for armageddon.

Yeah Iran was really agrresive only 1400 years ago, we can't let that happen again.

pBump
November 16 2012, 07:04:48 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?


I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim that Israel is in the right for their treatment of the Palestinians. But there are reasons why they do what they do. That embargo? Turns out people are constantly trying to smuggle weapons into the Gaza. Who knew?!

Israel isn't happy with the Palestinian effort at an end-around through the UN so they pull the tax money they normally give them? Go figure.

Right or wrong isn't my argument. I'm only interested in what's actually happening, and what is most likely going to continue to happen. For there to be any progress toward peace, the Palestinian people have to form a government that can control it's own people.

Tiny
November 16 2012, 07:12:24 PM
so fucking over an entire people is ok then?


I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim that Israel is in the right for their treatment of the Palestinians. But there are reasons why they do what they do. That embargo? Turns out people are constantly trying to smuggle weapons into the Gaza. Who knew?!

Israel isn't happy with the Palestinian effort at an end-around through the UN so they pull the tax money they normally give them? Go figure.

Right or wrong isn't my argument. I'm only interested in what's actually happening, and what is most likely going to continue to happen. For there to be any progress toward peace, the Palestinian people have to form a government that can control it's own people.

Yeah, they but when they elect people they generaly arn't pro Israel, so they get killed, then the people that are left can't contoll their people because the don't represent them.

Sofia Roseburn
November 16 2012, 07:21:46 PM
Purged.

punkboy101
November 16 2012, 07:22:51 PM
Does it make any strategic, political, or economic sense for the US to abandon Israel?

No it doesn't.


We're not going to screw over one of our closest allies to make nice with people who mostly hate us.

With US backing Israel is untouchable. That's why Iran can't be allowed to have nukes, it's the only trump card that would give them a shot at wiping Israel off the map.



There will, without a doubt, be war over this very issue in the next 10 days.

FYP - Dammit forum ate my post, editing


Turns out people are constantly trying to smuggle weapons into the Gaza. Who knew?!

This is a terrible point. I mean when Hitler occupied France and started hanging/executing people for the same reasons Israel is attacking Palestine no-one went "well that's justifyed, carry on!"

Hast
November 16 2012, 07:26:22 PM
-LobbyZ

But what do you do in the current situation? You've got two groups, either time one attacks the other, they retaliate. In that circumstance, it's up to one side or the other to decide to quit the retaliatory cycle.

Now here's a hitch: One of these sides has a long memory and is willing to keep attacking even if the other isn't retaliating.

Now we'll grant that even if it isn't actively bombarding them, Israel is still oppressing them, and the Palestinians are retaliating against that.

So we can tell the Israelis to quit oppressing Palestine, but what happens if they do? The embargo/blockade ends, but the Palestinians and their long memories are still pissed off, and now they can get their hands on real weapons. Sucks to be an israeli civilian when a cruise missile hits Tel Aviv.

Is Israel in the wrong keeping the Palestinians under its boot? Absolutely. Did they create the bed they're sleeping in? Pretty much. Do they deserve any sympathy for it? Not really.

Would it be reasonable to expect a sovereign government to take action which it believes might endanger its citizens? Not really. As long as the Israeli government considers Palestine a threat, they'll keep their boot down.



In the very long run, they'd probably be better off quitting the whole oppression thing, surviving whatever consequences it might bring, and working toward eventual peace. However, given the possbility of really nasty consequences in the short run, and the fact that Jerusalem remains a point of contention in the peace process, that's a potentially huge risk to take for a peaceful future that might be impossible to achieve.

As we've seen here in the US, very few people politicians are willing to accept the short term pain needed for an improved future, and we're not even dealing with matters of life and death.

As has been stated earlier in the thread, collective punishment of an entire people because of the actions of few is illegal according to international law. I fail to see how restricting water, electricity and and concrete supplies + other things that are needed for basic infrastructure has anything at all to do with stopping weapons from flowing into Palestine. And another thing I have huge issues with is the disproportionate amount of force used by the IDF/Israel compared to the rockets fired by the Hamas. Additionally it was shown during the war the last time that Israel hit both hospitals and other clearly civilian structures and used white phosphorous against mostly civilians in the name of protecting their own civilians.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-white-phosphorus


Now where is the justice in that?

Victoria Steckersaurus
November 16 2012, 07:40:21 PM
Now where is the justice in that?

There really is none. I'm not trying to defend what they've done as either right or legal.

I'm mostly interested in seeing what alternatives anyone would suggest. In their rather unfortunate position, what do you do?

[tangent]
I may disagree a little about the disproportionate nature of the israeli response. It's really only thus because of the difference in accuracy. Hamas has literally launched hundreds upon hundreds of rockets into Israel this year, each of which has the potential to kill and injure. The fact that many of them miss does not absolve those launching them from their attempts to kill civilians. They are trying to kill hundreds or thousands of people - their failure doesn't change that.

The Israelis, on the other hand, hit what they shoot at. They aren't actually trying to kill any more people - a great deal less, in fact - but they aren't failing at it.

Hast
November 16 2012, 07:49:49 PM
[tangent]
I may disagree a little about the disproportionate nature of the israeli response. It's really only thus because of the difference in accuracy. Hamas has literally launched hundreds upon hundreds of rockets into Israel this year, each of which has the potential to kill and injure. The fact that many of them miss does not absolve those launching them from their attempts to kill civilians. They are trying to kill hundreds or thousands of people - their failure doesn't change that.

The Israelis, on the other hand, hit what they shoot at. They aren't actually trying to kill any more people - a great deal less, in fact - but they aren't failing at it.


I'll bite.

http://ap.mnocdn.no/incoming/article7047367.ece/ALTERNATES/w780c169/FS00054826.jpg?updated=161120121535

This is a recent picture near the border to Gaza. Israel is getting prepared to go in on foot. I predict a bloodbath similar to the Gaza war in january of 2009.

The kill/loss ratio of the IDF speak volumes about the excessive force used:

Total killed: 13
Soldiers: 10 (friendly fire: 4)[27]
Civilians: 3
Total wounded: 518
Soldiers: 336[28]
Civilians: 182[28]

Total killed: 1,417 (PCHR),[29] 1,166 (IDF)[30]
Militants and police officers:
491* (PCHR),[29] 709 (IDF)[30]
600–700 (Hamas)[31]
Civilians: 926 (PCHR),[29] 295 (IDF)[30]
Total wounded: 5,303 (PCHR)[29]
Total captured: 120 (IDF)

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

Sacul
November 16 2012, 07:52:47 PM
-LobbyZ

But what do you do in the current situation? You've got two groups, either time one attacks the other, they retaliate. In that circumstance, it's up to one side or the other to decide to quit the retaliatory cycle.

Now here's a hitch: One of these sides has a long memory and is willing to keep attacking even if the other isn't retaliating.

Now we'll grant that even if it isn't actively bombarding them, Israel is still oppressing them, and the Palestinians are retaliating against that.

So we can tell the Israelis to quit oppressing Palestine, but what happens if they do? The embargo/blockade ends, but the Palestinians and their long memories are still pissed off, and now they can get their hands on real weapons. Sucks to be an israeli civilian when a cruise missile hits Tel Aviv.

Is Israel in the wrong keeping the Palestinians under its boot? Absolutely. Did they create the bed they're sleeping in? Pretty much. Do they deserve any sympathy for it? Not really.

Would it be reasonable to expect a sovereign government to take action which it believes might endanger its citizens? Not really. As long as the Israeli government considers Palestine a threat, they'll keep their boot down.



In the very long run, they'd probably be better off quitting the whole oppression thing, surviving whatever consequences it might bring, and working toward eventual peace. However, given the possbility of really nasty consequences in the short run, and the fact that Jerusalem remains a point of contention in the peace process, that's a potentially huge risk to take for a peaceful future that might be impossible to achieve.

As we've seen here in the US, very few people politicians are willing to accept the short term pain needed for an improved future, and we're not even dealing with matters of life and death.

As has been stated earlier in the thread, collective punishment of an entire people because of the actions of few is illegal according to international law. I fail to see how restricting water, electricity and and concrete supplies + other things that are needed for basic infrastructure has anything at all to do with stopping weapons from flowing into Palestine. And another thing I have huge issues with is the disproportionate amount of force used by the IDF/Israel compared to the rockets fired by the Hamas. Additionally it was shown during the war the last time that Israel hit both hospitals and other clearly civilian structures and used white phosphorous against mostly civilians in the name of protecting their own civilians.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-white-phosphorus


Now where is the justice in that?
Thats why these threads allways end so bad....its well beyond justice. Both sides are batshit insane.
regarding the iron dome anti missile batteries. They are costly to operate and limited in number and deployment. The number of a million people in the line of fire is exxagereted like all sides do. However think of this, the westbank posses little problems in security standpoint yet hamas keeps lobbing missiles over the gaza border.

Nicho Void
November 16 2012, 09:57:38 PM
....its well beyond justice. Both sides are batshit insane.

So much this.

punkboy101
November 17 2012, 04:09:33 AM
Israeli defence systems intercepting rockets, filmed from a wedding reception. People honestly don't seem too bothered by the air raid sirens. Skip to 0:49 for action to start.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kAyqbKwd1o

Varcaus
November 17 2012, 04:10:28 AM
Ok ill be right back with the idf dropping rockets into gaza

Hast
November 17 2012, 10:50:04 PM
Thread is back where it belongs. Play nice, not going to warn anyone again.

Varcaus
November 17 2012, 11:09:53 PM
So bombing gaza into the stone age kinda hard when they are already there c/d?

punkboy101
November 17 2012, 11:12:56 PM
Looks like ground troops are going in tomorrow morning, will be interesting to see how Hamas deals with that. Will Israel try to "defang" Hamas once and for all, or will it be a repeat of 2008/09 where they go in, blow a bunch of shit up and then pull out without doing too much longterm damage. It certainly seem that they are trying to dismantle the government as they have been bombing Government infrastructure. Seeing how Hammas has improved it's missile range is interesting, and there are reports of an Israeli F-16 being shot down so they may have improved their capabilities considerably in the last few years. Egypt has introduced an interesting new dimension to the region, wondering if they will get involved directly if/when diplomatic efforts fail/breakdown.

Also wondering if Hezbollah will start getting involved. I know there is a UN buffer on the Golan heights, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't stop them launching missiles or trying to hit Israeli gunboats.


Edit- Forgot to mention, does anyone think will Israel finally try to bomb Iran as part of this flare-up? Suspect that it's certainly a possibility.

The Monkeysphere
November 17 2012, 11:12:59 PM
Please get this thread out of here and back to the pony subforum or whatever shithole it came from, us non-SRS-shits haven't done anything to deserve having them post themselves to the orbit outside of their special place

totalllynotmarcus
November 17 2012, 11:13:17 PM
So bombing gaza into the stone age kinda hard when they are already there c/d?

oh no, the Israelis cant let them import stone.....

...they might make a bomb out of it....


....

Dorvil Barranis
November 18 2012, 01:22:22 AM
Edit- Forgot to mention, does anyone think will Israel finally try to bomb Iran as part of this flare-up? Suspect that it's certainly a possibility.

I had the opposite feeling, that this would keep them tied up and unable to bomb Iran anytime soon.

Varcaus
November 18 2012, 01:24:55 AM
Edit- Forgot to mention, does anyone think will Israel finally try to bomb Iran as part of this flare-up? Suspect that it's certainly a possibility.

I had the opposite feeling, that this would keep them tied up and unable to bomb Iran anytime soon.

I doubt it not going to be a whole that that can stop them in gaza if they really want tbh. (unless im missing a load of tanks that hamas has?)

punkboy101
November 18 2012, 02:24:44 AM
Edit- Forgot to mention, does anyone think will Israel finally try to bomb Iran as part of this flare-up? Suspect that it's certainly a possibility.

I had the opposite feeling, that this would keep them tied up and unable to bomb Iran anytime soon.

I doubt it not going to be a whole that that can stop them in gaza if they really want tbh. (unless im missing a load of tanks that hamas has?)

Agreed, any strike against Iran will be all/mostly air power (perhaps some commando's on the ground but that's highly doubtful), ground forces have very little to do with it.

The reason I brought this up is I think it's highly likely that this could be considered "phase 1" of a strike on Iran. in the event of a strike on Iran, there is no doubt that Hamas would launch a a whole bunch of rockets forcing Israel to deal with shit in their backyard as well as any Iranian retaliation. I think the Israeli's are once again proving how brilliant they are when it comes to strategy. The last few day Hamas has been using it's stockpiles of rokets built up over the last few years, and once Isreali has boots on the ground there is very little Hamas can do to threaten Israel's civilian population. I honestly think that they are neutralizing one of the two (the other being Hezbollah) groups that could cause problems close to home once they strike Iran.

helgur
November 18 2012, 03:25:40 AM
Egypt won't get directly involved in any conflict that might erupt between Israel and the Palestinians. They are too dependent on US support to even dare touching Israel with a toothpick.

Frug
November 18 2012, 03:30:01 AM
Egypt won't get directly involved in any conflict that might erupt between Israel and the Palestinians. They are too dependent on US support to even dare touching Israel with a toothpick.

I suppose alternative backers who would prop them up are pretty rare these days huh. I mean Iran doesn't exactly have money to support egypt if they should decide to go against israel (and therefore the US).

Rans
November 18 2012, 03:54:35 AM
US and co. pledged a few billion $(6bn I think) to Egypt not even two weeks ago, Egypt will act as a hospital for the Gaza people(funding from gulf states). So no, Egypt will not get involved even if they would want to.


Israel is doing it because they understand shit is not going their way in the region. Syria is the training ground for tens of radical groups now from all over the muslim world, Iran is too close to weapons grade enriched uranium, Egypt is unable to keep peace within it's borders and Hamas, Hezbollah, etc are getting restless. They will give Gaza a good beating then keep the troops(almost 100k troops mobilized just for Gaza, srs?) on alert for Syria/Iran trouble. At least that's what I think.

Varcaus
November 18 2012, 03:56:37 AM
US and co. pledged a few billion $(6bn I think) to Egypt not even two weeks ago, Egypt will act as a hospital for the Gaza people(funding from gulf states). So no, Egypt will not get involved even if they would want to.


Israel is doing it because they understand shit is not going their way in the region. Syria is the training ground for tens of radical groups now from all over the muslim world, Iran is too close to weapons grade enriched uranium, Egypt is unable to keep peace within it's borders and Hamas, Hezbollah, etc are getting restless. They will give Gaza a good beating then keep the troops(almost 100k troops mobilized just for Gaza, srs?) on alert for Syria/Iran trouble. At least that's what I think.

You seem to think they will let people out of gaza I doubt it. Otherwise anyone with a brain would already be leaving.

punkboy101
November 18 2012, 04:15:04 AM
almost 100k troops mobilized just for Gaza, srs?

Show of strength. You're right about the situation around them and that's precisely why they've called up 100K troops + spent the last 5 days pounding Gaza from the air and sea. The entire region is in chaos with uprisings/civil war, the Government is looking at re-election in January so this is why they are flexing and I suspect we will see Iran hit by January, although my money is on a December strike.

ccpl_fisher
November 18 2012, 05:59:57 AM
It always makes me rage that Israel apologists (who also tend to be very hostile towards Islam in general...funny that) think it is reasonable to measure Israel's actions and the Palestinians by the same yardstick.

Palestine is a broken ghetto of a country. Its people are ill educated, its economy is fucked (both as a direct result of Israel's actions). People live in mysery, particularly in Gaza.

Against this background, stupid statements like "Palestine deserves because it doesn't stop firing rockets at Israel" is retarded. Its like saying the Somali people don't deserve Aid because their leadership can get their shit together.

Measuring Israels actions and saying "well what they are doing is [no worse than] the Palestinians" is therefore utterly retarded. Israel is a powerful, stable, functional democracy with all the institutions of government, legislature and oversight that go with that. We MUST hold Israel to a higher standard than we hold Palestine.

Terrorism and attacks on Israel by extremists in Palestine is inevitable while the flagrant breaches of international law and deliberate ghettoisation of palestine continues. I'm not arguing such acts are justified (though its possible to make such an argument), I dont think they are. But thats not the point. They are inevitable when you take a country, refuse them political independence, build a wall around them, deny them building materials, enough water or electricity and strictly control foreign entry and exit, while periodically demolishing what little infrastructure is built. In this environment, extremism is absolutely inevitable.

[b]What Israel is doing is like starving and abusing a pet dog and then using the fact that it tries to bite people as an excuse for making the conditions it lives in even worse.

Noone denies Israel is massively in breach of international law with its illegal and government supported (and encouraged!) settlements outside of the 1967 borders. By forcing palestinians off land and giving it to extremist jews, how is that anything other than ethnic cleansing?

What is happening in Israel/Palestine will be remembered by History as worse than South African apartheid. Sympathisers with Israel will be revealed as the racist or anti-muslim bigots.
Palestinians intentionally target civilians.
Israelis intentionally target militia members.
Being poor/ill educated is not an excuse for intentionally targeting little kids.

lucian
November 18 2012, 06:23:39 AM
Somalia doesn't deserve aid. AIDS maybe....and it has nothing to do with their leaders, and everything to do with being a pack of skinny drug addicted assholes who are primarily interested in pillaging and murdering their neighbors, not nation building.


The Palestinians are not Somali's. They just tend to act like them. Anyone remember a few years ago with they stomped a couple of Israli's to death on live TV? Or shot a pregnant women and her four children? Or ax murdered a group of kids playing on a tennis court? There's a big difference between murdering civilians, and having your house explode because you're letting Hamas fire off rockets from your backyard. Both are examples of a tragic loss of life, but one of these was preventable.

The Palestinians keep losing their fights, but haven't learned any lessons from it. When a people lose a war, they have two choices. Accept it, reach an accomodation, and move on. Or alternatively, rebuild, get stronger,and get revenge. They've done neither, and so continue to live a pointless dead end existence. One of these days they'll either figure it out, or the Israelis will push them right out of the Gaza Strip and into the Sinai and say "Fuck it, if Egypt loves them that much they can deal with them".

AmaNutin
November 18 2012, 08:04:42 AM
It's a matter of Israel displacing people who had already been living there - and the issue is that neither side wants to recognize the other as having a valid reason for living in that area.

Right now, I'm considering what kind of work I could do with the United Nations - like the peacekeepers.

VARRAKK
November 18 2012, 08:15:45 AM
Israel is at least a civilized country.
Go ahead a steamroll the Gaza if that might make the region more stable.

IceBlock
November 18 2012, 09:50:33 AM
We should have let Hitler finish the job. Instead we created a monster - just like their oppressors!

Anyways, if Isreal steamroll Gaza, like total genocide, other muslim countries will interfere. I doubt they would be that stupid, but jews are jews. Let's hope they don't bomb Iran just because they're on a good bombing streak!

KathDougans
November 18 2012, 09:53:16 AM
The Palestinians keep losing their fights, but haven't learned any lessons from it. When a people lose a war, they have two choices. Accept it, reach an accomodation, and move on. Or alternatively, rebuild, get stronger,and get revenge. They've done neither, and so continue to live a pointless dead end existence. One of these days they'll either figure it out, or the Israelis will push them right out of the Gaza Strip and into the Sinai and say "Fuck it, if Egypt loves them that much they can deal with them".

What accommodation do you think can be made here ?

Evelgrivion
November 18 2012, 09:59:54 AM
We should have let Hitler finish the job. Instead we created a monster - just like their oppressors!

Anyways, if Isreal steamroll Gaza, like total genocide, other muslim countries will interfere. I doubt they would be that stupid, but jews are jews. Let's hope they don't bomb Iran just because they're on a good bombing streak!

Having a reasonable reaction to Palestinian suffering requires a degree of empathy for the plight of human suffering, an appreciation for the broader context, and a resistance to knee-jerk eye for an eye style vengeance; your possession of these qualities seems rather questionable at this point.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 10:22:28 AM
So bombing gaza into the stone age kinda hard when they are already there c/d?

CCCCC



We should have let Hitler finish the job. Instead we created a monster - just like their oppressors!

Anyways, if Isreal steamroll Gaza, like total genocide, other muslim countries will interfere. I doubt they would be that stupid, but jews are jews. Let's hope they don't bomb Iran just because they're on a good bombing streak!

Having a reasonable reaction to Palestinian suffering requires a degree of empathy for the plight of human suffering, an appreciation for the broader context, and a resistance to knee-jerk eye for an eye style vengeance; your possession of these qualities seems rather questionable at this point.

:lolnords:





[tangent]
I may disagree a little about the disproportionate nature of the israeli response. It's really only thus because of the difference in accuracy. Hamas has literally launched hundreds upon hundreds of rockets into Israel this year, each of which has the potential to kill and injure. The fact that many of them miss does not absolve those launching them from their attempts to kill civilians. They are trying to kill hundreds or thousands of people - their failure doesn't change that.

The Israelis, on the other hand, hit what they shoot at. They aren't actually trying to kill any more people - a great deal less, in fact - but they aren't failing at it.


I'll bite.

[IM]http://ap.mnocdn.no/incoming/article7047367.ece/ALTERNATES/w780c169/FS00054826.jpg?updated=161120121535[/IMG]

This is a recent picture near the border to Gaza. Israel is getting prepared to go in on foot. I predict a bloodbath similar to the Gaza war in january of 2009.

The kill/loss ratio of the IDF speak volumes about the excessive force used:

Total killed: 13
Soldiers: 10 (friendly fire: 4)[27]
Civilians: 3
Total wounded: 518
Soldiers: 336[28]
Civilians: 182[28]

Total killed: 1,417 (PCHR),[29] 1,166 (IDF)[30]
Militants and police officers:
491* (PCHR),[29] 709 (IDF)[30]
600–700 (Hamas)[31]
Civilians: 926 (PCHR),[29] 295 (IDF)[30]
Total wounded: 5,303 (PCHR)[29]
Total captured: 120 (IDF)

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

And this is why you know Hamas isn't interested in the people of Palestine. If they were serious they would stop making ground war look like the only option and actually consider some of the solutions offered instead of rejecting them outright.

'Excessive' force is how you fight these kinds of wars. Attrition of resources and morale.

Me
November 18 2012, 10:48:59 AM
http://i.imgur.com/tHlmi.jpg

They had it coming.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 11:03:17 AM
That comic lacks the fact that Hamas started it.

They were all
"I wish the holocaust happened."

and then they started getting violent.

Radgette
November 18 2012, 11:11:57 AM
That comic lacks the fact that Hamas started it.

They were all
"I wish the holocaust happened."

and then they started getting violent.

erm i think you'll find israel started it when they evicted palestinians from there homes stole their businesses and land and started the 1967 war because they didn't like the borders they had. not to mention the illegal settlements that continue to be made every year.

yes killing civilians is a terrible thing to do, but when your pushed into a corner and have nothing left to lose people do stupid desperate things.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5drXEXkf9s&sns=tw

just because i believe israel is in the wrong and they are war criminals doesn't make me a nazi apologist.

Sparq
November 18 2012, 11:42:32 AM
That comic lacks the fact that Hamas started it.

They were all
"I wish the holocaust happened."

and then they started getting violent.

erm i think you'll find israel started it when they evicted palestinians from there homes stole their businesses and land and started the 1967 war because they didn't like the borders they had. not to mention the illegal settlements that continue to be made every year.

yes killing civilians is a terrible thing to do, but when your pushed into a corner and have nothing left to lose people do stupid desperate things.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5drXEXkf9s&sns=tw

just because i believe israel is in the wrong and they are war criminals doesn't make me a nazi apologist.Yeah, the Six Day War was entirely Israel's fault. If it wasn't for those brave Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians holding them off for as long as they did I'm sure the whole world would have been subjugated under the boot heel of Zionist oppression.

Toxic
November 18 2012, 11:53:21 AM
If you really want to go back that far, then britain is the one responsible for all this. And no, that is not a joke.

After WW2 britain had promised both the Palestinians AND the jews the same territory. This is the recipe for conflict.

Can any of todays events be excused by blaming britain? No.

The war crimes committed on both sides are inexcusable, and the "well, he started it.." game leads to nowhere.

(yes Im looking at you Jason/Sparq/Ragette >_> )

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 11:55:59 AM
I should reiterate that you should haven't taken most anything of what I said seriously...

I mean come on I managed to be anti-Semitic and deny the holocaust in 5 words.


I think i made it pretty clear I really don't know enough to care about either side, but if shit hits the fan id rather we have a happy Israel on our side.

Hast
November 18 2012, 11:59:28 AM
It always makes me rage that Israel apologists (who also tend to be very hostile towards Islam in general...funny that) think it is reasonable to measure Israel's actions and the Palestinians by the same yardstick.

Palestine is a broken ghetto of a country. Its people are ill educated, its economy is fucked (both as a direct result of Israel's actions). People live in mysery, particularly in Gaza.

Against this background, stupid statements like "Palestine deserves because it doesn't stop firing rockets at Israel" is retarded. Its like saying the Somali people don't deserve Aid because their leadership can get their shit together.

Measuring Israels actions and saying "well what they are doing is [no worse than] the Palestinians" is therefore utterly retarded. Israel is a powerful, stable, functional democracy with all the institutions of government, legislature and oversight that go with that. We MUST hold Israel to a higher standard than we hold Palestine.

Terrorism and attacks on Israel by extremists in Palestine is inevitable while the flagrant breaches of international law and deliberate ghettoisation of palestine continues. I'm not arguing such acts are justified (though its possible to make such an argument), I dont think they are. But thats not the point. They are inevitable when you take a country, refuse them political independence, build a wall around them, deny them building materials, enough water or electricity and strictly control foreign entry and exit, while periodically demolishing what little infrastructure is built. In this environment, extremism is absolutely inevitable.

[b]What Israel is doing is like starving and abusing a pet dog and then using the fact that it tries to bite people as an excuse for making the conditions it lives in even worse.

Noone denies Israel is massively in breach of international law with its illegal and government supported (and encouraged!) settlements outside of the 1967 borders. By forcing palestinians off land and giving it to extremist jews, how is that anything other than ethnic cleansing?

What is happening in Israel/Palestine will be remembered by History as worse than South African apartheid. Sympathisers with Israel will be revealed as the racist or anti-muslim bigots.
Palestinians intentionally target civilians.
Israelis intentionally target militia members.
Being poor/ill educated is not an excuse for intentionally targeting little kids.

You make it sound like HAMAS and the Palestinians are one homogeneous group which they are not.



Somalia doesn't deserve aid. AIDS maybe....and it has nothing to do with their leaders, and everything to do with being a pack of skinny drug addicted assholes who are primarily interested in pillaging and murdering their neighbors, not nation building.


The Palestinians are not Somali's. They just tend to act like them. Anyone remember a few years ago with they stomped a couple of Israli's to death on live TV? Or shot a pregnant women and her four children? Or ax murdered a group of kids playing on a tennis court? There's a big difference between murdering civilians, and having your house explode because you're letting Hamas fire off rockets from your backyard. Both are examples of a tragic loss of life, but one of these was preventable.

The Palestinians keep losing their fights, but haven't learned any lessons from it. When a people lose a war, they have two choices. Accept it, reach an accomodation, and move on. Or alternatively, rebuild, get stronger,and get revenge. They've done neither, and so continue to live a pointless dead end existence. One of these days they'll either figure it out, or the Israelis will push them right out of the Gaza Strip and into the Sinai and say "Fuck it, if Egypt loves them that much they can deal with them".

So what you are saying that the Palestinians should just pack up and leave and let the Israeli invaders have their country? And then become a international throwing ball worse then the romani people in Europe right now? Right, and you would do the same if it happened to you?


It's a matter of Israel displacing people who had already been living there - and the issue is that neither side wants to recognize the other as having a valid reason for living in that area.

Right now, I'm considering what kind of work I could do with the United Nations - like the peacekeepers.

This. Unless you subscribe to the bible point of view that god gave the land to the jewish people.



So bombing gaza into the stone age kinda hard when they are already there c/d?

CCCCC



We should have let Hitler finish the job. Instead we created a monster - just like their oppressors!

Anyways, if Isreal steamroll Gaza, like total genocide, other muslim countries will interfere. I doubt they would be that stupid, but jews are jews. Let's hope they don't bomb Iran just because they're on a good bombing streak!

Having a reasonable reaction to Palestinian suffering requires a degree of empathy for the plight of human suffering, an appreciation for the broader context, and a resistance to knee-jerk eye for an eye style vengeance; your possession of these qualities seems rather questionable at this point.

:lolnords:





[tangent]
I may disagree a little about the disproportionate nature of the israeli response. It's really only thus because of the difference in accuracy. Hamas has literally launched hundreds upon hundreds of rockets into Israel this year, each of which has the potential to kill and injure. The fact that many of them miss does not absolve those launching them from their attempts to kill civilians. They are trying to kill hundreds or thousands of people - their failure doesn't change that.

The Israelis, on the other hand, hit what they shoot at. They aren't actually trying to kill any more people - a great deal less, in fact - but they aren't failing at it.


I'll bite.

[IM]http://ap.mnocdn.no/incoming/article7047367.ece/ALTERNATES/w780c169/FS00054826.jpg?updated=161120121535[/IMG]

This is a recent picture near the border to Gaza. Israel is getting prepared to go in on foot. I predict a bloodbath similar to the Gaza war in january of 2009.

The kill/loss ratio of the IDF speak volumes about the excessive force used:

Total killed: 13
Soldiers: 10 (friendly fire: 4)[27]
Civilians: 3
Total wounded: 518
Soldiers: 336[28]
Civilians: 182[28]

Total killed: 1,417 (PCHR),[29] 1,166 (IDF)[30]
Militants and police officers:
491* (PCHR),[29] 709 (IDF)[30]
600–700 (Hamas)[31]
Civilians: 926 (PCHR),[29] 295 (IDF)[30]
Total wounded: 5,303 (PCHR)[29]
Total captured: 120 (IDF)

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

And this is why you know Hamas isn't interested in the people of Palestine. If they were serious they would stop making ground war look like the only option and actually consider some of the solutions offered instead of rejecting them outright.

'Excessive' force is how you fight these kinds of wars. Attrition of resources and morale.

You make it sound like there are two countries duking it out. It is not. It is one so-called civilized democracy against a people that have consistenly been pushed around for the last century almost.

And excessive force is not how you fight in the most densely populated area of the world, especially not when half of the people living there are children. Unless you want to create another few generations of "terrorists"

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 12:04:21 PM
It is though, that has always been the case. The most dense areas always see the hardest fighting.

Sparq
November 18 2012, 12:26:47 PM
(yes Im looking at you Jason/Sparq/Ragette >_> )I used the phrase "Zionist Oppression", for crying out aloud.

Also, (and marginally more seriously)

Regarding "excessive force" in ground operations, that's exactly how I'd apply force if I were the state of Israel - Hamas* & friends do have a history of trying to capture hostages from amongst IDF personnel. More soldiers than some arbitrary assumption of "necessary" seems better to me than "not enough to support and protect one another from snatch squads". Even the best of plans rarely survive contact with the enemy, etc.

* I suppose after having that much building drop on them, they're more Hummus than Hamas now

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 01:26:58 PM
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599865_378171958937180_1968738714_n.jpg

BUT WHO WILL STOP FIGHTING FIRST!?

Tiny
November 18 2012, 01:43:53 PM
BUT WHO WILL STOP FIGHTING FIRST!?

Sure as fuck won't be israel, they invanded in 1948, dumping the locals into mass graves when they failed to GTFO. The havn't looked back, when your living on stolen land the only way to go is to keep on stealing.

There are still palestinians living who farmed the land that is now the heart of Isreal. If people took your land, the land your greatgrand parents farmed, would you stop fighting to get it back.

Palestinians - we lived there for tens of generations, it ours.

Isreal - God told us that it's ours, then the US and Europe gave us guns.

I know which argument sound sane to me.

The Monkeysphere
November 18 2012, 01:51:17 PM
Oh, that's a very sane argument.


Such a shame about those thousands and thousands of Indian tribes, the South Africans, Asians of a million kind and every other fucking race, nationality or people in the history of humankind. You inane mong.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 01:53:31 PM
So, why not do what we did here in America to the rightful owners of the land. Lets give the Palestinians reservations across Israel, where people can go to gamble and watch concerts and stage shows!



Seriously, no one is going to get anywhere if you just keep arguing about what was. Looking to the past works great for preventing mistakes in the future but we are where we are and no justification is going to satisfy either side. As 3rd party observers our duty is to be as unbiased as we can be and hopefully convince the sides to sit down and talk reasonably with one another.

hellgremlin
November 18 2012, 01:56:44 PM
Can't wait to visit the Palestinian Petting Zoo.

Warmenhoven
November 18 2012, 01:57:01 PM
the South Africans

......which ones?

Al Simmons
November 18 2012, 01:57:42 PM
I preface any remarks by saying I don't really know enough to comment on the poltics on the region, i've not really read that much about it beyond a few Wikipedia articles and whatever's been in the news recently and the past few years. I don't really know if there is an objective side one can be for, it seems a huge intractable clusterfuck, and both sides have a share of the blame. And as Victoria said above, even were Israel to call a ceasefire and actively work for peace rather than aggressively defending itself, all it would take is one group of Islamic crazies to bomb a synagogue or something and the whole cycle would start up again.

I also sympathise with the plight of the average Palestinian, I imagine most of them just want to get on with their lives and couldn't give a flying fuck about which side is righteous. It must suck absolute balls being stuck in the middle of this shit. I think the whole religious aspect of it all makes it ten times worse, it makes it harder for rational heads to prevail, and it means there will always be another lot of Jihadis/Zionists ready to inflame everything all over again.

Speaking personally, i'm fucking glad this shit didn't flare up a few months ago, my brother went to visit with this Israeli friend he met at uni. Their family lives in the south-east of Israel which doesn't seem to be affected, so he probably would have been ok, but still. He says that Yoel's been called up back to the army, which must be a pain in the ass to have to do in the middle of your studies. Though he says a few years ago he was in Canada and got called up and by the time he'd gotten back to Israel the crisis was over.

Tiny
November 18 2012, 01:58:45 PM
Oh, that's a very sane argument.


Such a shame about those thousands and thousands of Indian tribes, the South Africans, Asians of a million kind and every other fucking race, nationality or people in the history of humankind. You inane mong.

If you were talking to me.. Yeah the USA is built an the massive geoncide of Indian nations, the Victorian British wiped out people like it was cool but that's history, there are people alive who got run out of their land when israel was made.

Can you expect people who's land was stolen to just fuck off, would you?

Rhaegor Stormborn
November 18 2012, 02:10:12 PM
Oh, that's a very sane argument.


Such a shame about those thousands and thousands of Indian tribes, the South Africans, Asians of a million kind and every other fucking race, nationality or people in the history of humankind. You inane mong.

If you were talking to me.. Yeah the USA is built an the massive geoncide of Indian nations, the Victorian British wiped out people like it was cool but that's history, there are people alive who got run out of their land when israel was made.

Can you expect people who's land was stolen to just fuck off, would you?

It doesn't matter. They can not win. Israel is here to stay. Deal with it and move on.

punkboy101
November 18 2012, 02:19:02 PM
Oh, that's a very sane argument.


Such a shame about those thousands and thousands of Indian tribes, the South Africans, Asians of a million kind and every other fucking race, nationality or people in the history of humankind. You inane mong.

If you were talking to me.. Yeah the USA is built an the massive geoncide of Indian nations, the Victorian British wiped out people like it was cool but that's history, there are people alive who got run out of their land when israel was made.

Can you expect people who's land was stolen to just fuck off, would you?

It doesn't matter. They can not win. Israel is here to stay. Deal with it and move on.


I agree, if someone steals your house/land, kills members of your family or friends, seals you in a tiny bit of land and denies your a children a free future, decides what you can and cannot bring into your refugee camp, and regularly bombs you, you should just accept it and move on.

A bit like we did the jews in WW2.

Tiny
November 18 2012, 02:20:55 PM
Oh, that's a very sane argument.


Such a shame about those thousands and thousands of Indian tribes, the South Africans, Asians of a million kind and every other fucking race, nationality or people in the history of humankind. You inane mong.

If you were talking to me.. Yeah the USA is built an the massive geoncide of Indian nations, the Victorian British wiped out people like it was cool but that's history, there are people alive who got run out of their land when israel was made.

Can you expect people who's land was stolen to just fuck off, would you?

It doesn't matter. They can not win. Israel is here to stay. Deal with it and move on.

As long as the US can afford to support them, so if they piss China off to much they're gone. (China supported iran becoming a full SCO member..hint)

cullnean
November 18 2012, 02:24:39 PM
Niggas don't know shit but have a lot of shit to say nbs

Tapatalk crew

Hast
November 18 2012, 02:27:04 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

Alistair
November 18 2012, 02:32:02 PM
Predictable thread and replies is predictable.

The hilarity of a mostly British, German, Russian, French, Assorted Euro and American forum prattling on smugly, self-rightiously and without a hint of self-awareness about the evils of the dastardly Jews "stealing peoples lands" is not lost.

Inbound hurf-blurf of fury in 3...2...1....

Varcaus
November 18 2012, 02:34:27 PM
Predictable thread and replies is predictable.

The hilarity of a mostly British, German, Russian, French, Assorted Euro and American forum prattling on smugly, self-rightiously and without a hint of self-awareness about the evils of the dastardly Jews "stealing peoples lands" is not lost.

Inbound hurf-blurf of fury in 3...2...1....

So use some facts and show us how we're wrong.

Crystalline Entity
November 18 2012, 02:42:16 PM
Liking Israel is similar to liking Firefly, you think you like something good, but in fact when you look at it..... you just like shit really

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 02:42:48 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

Radgette
November 18 2012, 02:44:05 PM
the sad fact is the majority of the UN general assembly has and is trying to help the palestinian people as you can see by the pretty large list of resolutions condemning israel's use of force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Isra el

however america vetoing pretty much everything that makes it to the security council including sanctions against israel for it's actions makes them pretty much completely impotent.

if you look at how often the palestinians rights have been troden on, you have to be pretty damn heartless not to sympathise with their plight. I in no way condone the actions of hamas against civilians i do however see how a person could reach a point where by they lost hope and felt it was the only way to get at the people oppressing them.
I do however think it was the wrong choice if they kept their attacks confined to military targets noone would be able to condemn them and the US veto's wouldn't be as easy for them to justify.

The whole situation has devolved so much that personally i can't see a solution to it. There is far too much hatred on both sides for it to be solved without a sea change in policy by one side, which i can't imagine happening anytime soon.

punkboy101
November 18 2012, 02:49:52 PM
Predictable thread and replies is predictable.

The hilarity of a mostly British, German, Russian, French, Assorted Euro and American forum prattling on smugly, self-rightiously and without a hint of self-awareness about the evils of the dastardly Jews "stealing peoples lands" is not lost.

Inbound hurf-blurf of fury in 3...2...1....

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg/500px-HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg

You're not seriously comparing what happened two/three hundred years ago with what's happened in Israel in the last 50 years are you? I mean no-one could actually be that fucking bad could they? Sure what happened in North America with the Indians/African Slavery was terrible, and all the shit the Euro's did over several thousands years was fucked up, but no-one within 2-3 generations is even alive that was part of that.

Besides, I feel terrible for the Indian's here in Canada, with their tax free live's, free healthcare/education/housing, right to hunt whenever they want and many other things that "immigrant" Canadians dont have the right to do, not to mention the truckloads of money the Government gives to them every year is completely comparable to how the Israeli's treat the Palestinians.

I try to stay away from saying shit like this, but holy fuck you're stupid.

Tiny
November 18 2012, 02:54:46 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't before, they are now.

lt
November 18 2012, 02:55:02 PM
Predictable thread and replies is predictable.

The hilarity of a mostly British, German, Russian, French, Assorted Euro and American forum prattling on smugly, self-rightiously and without a hint of self-awareness about the evils of the dastardly Jews "stealing peoples lands" is not lost.

Inbound hurf-blurf of fury in 3...2...1....

I understand that an american would defend it though...

:TpTlk:

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 02:58:43 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.

Varcaus
November 18 2012, 03:00:32 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.Maybe Israel should let them out of gaza then?

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 03:01:12 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.Maybe Israel should let them out of gaza then?

I agree. But only after strip and invasive cavity searches.

punkboy101
November 18 2012, 03:02:56 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.

So what you are saying is we should nuke Israel and Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, parts of Africa, Italy, Parts of South America and the southern US. Sounds like a great plan.

lt
November 18 2012, 03:04:26 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.

That's the dumbest post in this thread, why are you wasting my free internet with your worthless posting?

:TpTlk:

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 03:04:56 PM
We have pre-positioned nukes in half of those locations already.

Tiny
November 18 2012, 03:05:40 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.

Most of the USA fits the bill on that one, and aren't the zionists occupiying land beacuse god told them it was ok.

At least pretend to be sane, you'll get your point over much better that way.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 03:08:07 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.

Most of the USA fits the bill on that one, and aren't the zionists occupiying land beacuse god told them it was ok.

At least pretend to be sane, you'll get your point over much better that way.

Creationism versus Evolution is way different then what goes on in those extremist schools. While the line is thin Ill take someone who was poorly educated in biology over someone who was educated to hate others just because they believe in something else any day.

Tiny
November 18 2012, 03:24:55 PM
I have to assume you're just trolling now, because no-one could be so ignorant.

cullnean
November 18 2012, 03:29:11 PM
Might is right it seems

Shameful, and I'm in the fucking military

Tapatalk crew

Amantus
November 18 2012, 03:31:44 PM
I can't actually believe that some of you are actually advocating that the palestinians should just accept that their fate is death by genocide because they can't defend themselves. Against the two biggest military powers in the world. Yes, the US and israeli military.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

So nice of you to deny Israel proper noun status.

The goal isn't genocide, I don't get why everyone seems to think that is what they are out to do. Yes some Israeli extremists want to see that but the vast majority just want rockets to stop falling and there to be a permanent solution to all this.

So the white white phosphorus on schools and hospitals is a peace geasture? We give you pertty fire, don't hate us.

Maybe the millitants were hiding in the bodies of children, if they wern't berfore they are now.

Maybe people who let their children get educated in locations occupied religious extremists in an active conflict shouldn't be allowed another generation.

oh yeah why dont they just move elsewhere. simple as that. problem solved.






retard

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 03:38:39 PM
Oh yes. Because anyone who holds a different opinion than yourself makes them ignorant. It's not that it doesn't upset me that kids are dead. Its just that those dead kids have nothing to do with fixing the situation. THEY ARE GREAT FOR PERPETUATING THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THOUGH!

I started out knowing hardly anything about the conflict cause I just didn't care. But I've read up over the last two days, I still don't care really cause it doesn't effect me, but its obvious that nothing is going to change unless Israel just wipes them off the map or everyone decides to just stop everything and start working on a solution from where we are now. Not where we were when Rome was an empire, not where we where before world war two but from where we are now.

Personally a two state solution seems the best, but both sides have to ignore traditional territory and agree to split things fairly and equally as if they were two neutral parties with no claims over anything in the region to begin with, both groups governments have made enough mistakes to make this fair. Just two groups cutting up a pie they were given by people who had no claim to it in the first place. Then you make the religious sites neutral, make sure both countries have sea access. AND VIOLA PEACE IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST.

To bad people are so tied up in what was and religious bullshit for that to ever work.


Seriously it has nothing to do with rights or entitlements, this needs to be about the youngest generation from both countries agreeing to forgive the other for what their fathers did and to just get together and start from square fucking one.

evil edna
November 18 2012, 03:39:35 PM
:jason marshall:

cullnean
November 18 2012, 03:43:08 PM
:jason marshall:

From chill bro to dumb cunt in a few posts

Tapatalk crew

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 03:45:03 PM
:jason marshall:

From chill bro to dumb cunt in a few posts

Tapatalk crew

Oh yeah, cause being able to just say fuck it this is not working we need to change our approach. Makes me a dumb cunt.

Warmenhoven
November 18 2012, 03:48:42 PM
Oh yes. Because anyone who holds a different opinion than yourself makes them ignorant. It's not that it doesn't upset me that kids are dead. Its just that those dead kids have nothing to do with fixing the situation. THEY ARE GREAT FOR PERPETUATING THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THOUGH!

I started out knowing hardly anything about the conflict cause I just didn't care. But I've read up over the last two days, I still don't care really cause it doesn't effect me, but its obvious that nothing is going to change unless Israel just wipes them off the map or everyone decides to just stop everything and start working on a solution from where we are now. Not where we were when Rome was an empire, not where we where before world war two but from where we are now.

Personally a two state solution seems the best, but both sides have to ignore traditional territory and agree to split things fairly and equally as if they were two neutral parties with no claims over anything in the region to begin with, both groups governments have made enough mistakes to make this fair. Just two groups cutting up a pie they were given by people who had no claim to it in the first place. Then you make the religious sites neutral, make sure both countries have sea access. AND VIOLA PEACE IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST.

To bad people are so tied up in what was and religious bullshit for that to ever work.


Seriously it has nothing to do with rights or entitlements, this needs to be about the youngest generation from both countries agreeing to forgive the other for what their fathers did and to just get together and start from square fucking one.

So, in a nut shell, you are asking an entire nation to trow away THE central tenant of their religion?

Wall
November 18 2012, 03:49:06 PM
Predictable thread and replies is predictable.

The hilarity of a mostly British, German, Russian, French, Assorted Euro and American forum prattling on smugly, self-rightiously and without a hint of self-awareness about the evils of the dastardly Jews "stealing peoples lands" is not lost.

Inbound hurf-blurf of fury in 3...2...1....

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg/500px-HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg

You're not seriously comparing what happened two/three hundred years ago with what's happened in Israel in the last 50 years are you? I mean no-one could actually be that fucking bad could they? Sure what happened in North America with the Indians/African Slavery was terrible, and all the shit the Euro's did over several thousands years was fucked up, but no-one within 2-3 generations is even alive that was part of that.

Besides, I feel terrible for the Indian's here in Canada, with their tax free live's, free healthcare/education/housing, right to hunt whenever they want and many other things that "immigrant" Canadians dont have the right to do, not to mention the truckloads of money the Government gives to them every year is completely comparable to how the Israeli's treat the Palestinians.

I try to stay away from saying shit like this, but holy fuck you're stupid.

So all Israel has to do to be absolved is wait 200 years and then give whatever is left of the Palestine people some tax breaks and health care?

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 03:50:29 PM
Oh yes. Because anyone who holds a different opinion than yourself makes them ignorant. It's not that it doesn't upset me that kids are dead. Its just that those dead kids have nothing to do with fixing the situation. THEY ARE GREAT FOR PERPETUATING THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THOUGH!

I started out knowing hardly anything about the conflict cause I just didn't care. But I've read up over the last two days, I still don't care really cause it doesn't effect me, but its obvious that nothing is going to change unless Israel just wipes them off the map or everyone decides to just stop everything and start working on a solution from where we are now. Not where we were when Rome was an empire, not where we where before world war two but from where we are now.

Personally a two state solution seems the best, but both sides have to ignore traditional territory and agree to split things fairly and equally as if they were two neutral parties with no claims over anything in the region to begin with, both groups governments have made enough mistakes to make this fair. Just two groups cutting up a pie they were given by people who had no claim to it in the first place. Then you make the religious sites neutral, make sure both countries have sea access. AND VIOLA PEACE IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST.

To bad people are so tied up in what was and religious bullshit for that to ever work.


Seriously it has nothing to do with rights or entitlements, this needs to be about the youngest generation from both countries agreeing to forgive the other for what their fathers did and to just get together and start from square fucking one.

So, in a nut shell, you are asking an entire nation to trow away THE central tenant of their religion?

Its all give and take man. No reason ANYONE has to own religious sites. The Vatican and Rome comes to mind. v0v

But if both sides are happy fighting each other I don't see why its our business to lose sleep over their casualties.

Wall
November 18 2012, 03:52:53 PM
oh yeah why dont they just move elsewhere. simple as that. problem solved.

....are you saying that up and moving is impossible in a thread about Israel?

Warmenhoven
November 18 2012, 03:55:57 PM
Oh yes. Because anyone who holds a different opinion than yourself makes them ignorant. It's not that it doesn't upset me that kids are dead. Its just that those dead kids have nothing to do with fixing the situation. THEY ARE GREAT FOR PERPETUATING THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THOUGH!

I started out knowing hardly anything about the conflict cause I just didn't care. But I've read up over the last two days, I still don't care really cause it doesn't effect me, but its obvious that nothing is going to change unless Israel just wipes them off the map or everyone decides to just stop everything and start working on a solution from where we are now. Not where we were when Rome was an empire, not where we where before world war two but from where we are now.

Personally a two state solution seems the best, but both sides have to ignore traditional territory and agree to split things fairly and equally as if they were two neutral parties with no claims over anything in the region to begin with, both groups governments have made enough mistakes to make this fair. Just two groups cutting up a pie they were given by people who had no claim to it in the first place. Then you make the religious sites neutral, make sure both countries have sea access. AND VIOLA PEACE IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST.

To bad people are so tied up in what was and religious bullshit for that to ever work.


Seriously it has nothing to do with rights or entitlements, this needs to be about the youngest generation from both countries agreeing to forgive the other for what their fathers did and to just get together and start from square fucking one.

So, in a nut shell, you are asking an entire nation to trow away THE central tenant of their religion?

Its all give and take man. No reason ANYONE has to own religious sites. The Vatican and Rome comes to mind. v0v

Jerusalem is the least of it. The entire land was promised to them by God according to their faith. Your'e asking a hell of a lot for them just to give that up....more than i think you realise.

[edit] not that i'm taking sides here, i honestly have no idea how this could reasonable be solved =/

Orar Ironfist
November 18 2012, 04:01:51 PM
Terrorist has such negative connotations. A far more accurate title is freedom fighters or resistance.

I was skimming the thread when I saw this. I hate the word freedom fighter.

Fire Fighter= I fight Fires!
Crime Fighter= I fight Crime!
Freedom Fighter = I fight Freedom! Wait.......

Tiny
November 18 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Oh yes. Because anyone who holds a different opinion than yourself makes them ignorant. It's not that it doesn't upset me that kids are dead. Its just that those dead kids have nothing to do with fixing the situation. THEY ARE GREAT FOR PERPETUATING THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE THOUGH!

I started out knowing hardly anything about the conflict cause I just didn't care. But I've read up over the last two days, I still don't care really cause it doesn't effect me, but its obvious that nothing is going to change unless Israel just wipes them off the map or everyone decides to just stop everything and start working on a solution from where we are now. Not where we were when Rome was an empire, not where we where before world war two but from where we are now.

Personally a two state solution seems the best, but both sides have to ignore traditional territory and agree to split things fairly and equally as if they were two neutral parties with no claims over anything in the region to begin with, both groups governments have made enough mistakes to make this fair. Just two groups cutting up a pie they were given by people who had no claim to it in the first place. Then you make the religious sites neutral, make sure both countries have sea access. AND VIOLA PEACE IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST.

To bad people are so tied up in what was and religious bullshit for that to ever work.


Seriously it has nothing to do with rights or entitlements, this needs to be about the youngest generation from both countries agreeing to forgive the other for what their fathers did and to just get together and start from square fucking one.

So, in a nut shell, you are asking an entire nation to trow away THE central tenant of their religion?

Its all give and take man. No reason ANYONE has to own religious sites. The Vatican and Rome comes to mind. v0v

But if both sides are happy fighting each other I don't see why its our business to lose sleep over their casualties.

Both sides are human, is this not a problem for you? Or maybe the huge waste of energy, we could be doing something usefull.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 04:07:19 PM
It sucks people are losing people they love. But until the leaders decide they want the situation to change nothing will happen.


And no. I dont actually think palestinians shouldn't be allowed another generation.

Al Simmons
November 18 2012, 04:09:19 PM
Meanwhile from the war nerd perspective:


FROM: GARY BRECHER
TO: THE WAR NERD DESK
DATE: NOV 16TH, 2012
GAZA: NO WAY. JUST. PLAIN. NOPE.
FRESNO, CA: What’s going on in Gaza is war, but not the kind any commander from the past would understand. On paper, Israel should be winning easily, because they’ve got the weapons, the numbers, the organization. The weapons Hamas is firing into Israel are primitive things, unguided rocket artillery, the kind that couldn’t hit the ground if it wasn’t for the law of gravity. On the other side, the Israelis get the best weaponry the US can give them.

But it’s not that simple. Israel may win this battle, but it’s lost the war already. You see that in the confusion the IDF shows about what to do. They’ve tried stomping hard on Gaza. In late 2008 through early 2009, “Operation Cast Lead” sent IDF troops and planes smashing into this tiny overpopulated slum. They killed 1400 Palestinians, and it didn’t do much but make everybody sick to their stomachs — including even some Israelis, once they got over their initial gloating.

Now you’re seeing the IDF doing its usual mix of Heavy + Cautious: launching 300 air strikes but not doing anything decisive. No matter what Israel does in the next few days, there’ll still be 1.7 million pissed-off people jammed into Gaza. It’s like kicking aimlessly at somebody tied up at your feet: they won’t stop trying to get loose, and when they do, you’re not going to be happy. Logically, in classical military terms, it’s simple: you’d massacre or expel the whole population. Israel doesn’t quite have the ruthlessness to do that, but they have enough to keep hitting Gaza, killing some of the people they want dead and, since it’s a crowded slum with a huge birthrate, a lot of women and kids who are just hunkering down trying to survive.

There’s a lesson here that the typical war nerd, obsessed with high-tech hardware, could learn if they wanted to: the effective combat power of any high-tech power is way less than it looks like on paper.

In a situation like this, the real winner is likely to be the Gazans. But they will win ugly—very, very ugly, and very slow, with a lot of funerals and horror. It’s a good grim proof of the old guerrilla-warfare line: “Victory will go to those who can endure the most, not those who can inflict the most.” And there’s no doubt about who wins that contest. Gaza is a place that’s basically been driven insane. Imagine a strip of land about 20 miles long and five miles wide, with the sea on one side and the IDF on the other, with 1.7 million people festering in some of the world’s nastiest tenements, with no entertainment except the dream of getting a little payback on the people keeping you penned up.

If you want to follow the situation, the best site is the BBC Live feed.

It’s one of those situations they call “rapidly evolving,” which means the war is on. Sort of. This is another point most US war nerds are real slow catching onto: there’s no line between all-out peace and all-out war any more. In fact, all-out war is very, very rare. What you get is war by gesture, the kind of gesture that kills a few hundred, or thousand people, but does nothing to change the strategic picture. And when you have a tribal war, which is all this is, the strategic situation is more or less the demographics.

Gaza has one of the highest birthrates in the world. Israel has a mid-range birthrate, but the freakish thing about it is that it’s the West Bank settler-maniacs and the Haredi, the so-called “ultra-Orthodox,” who don’t even serve in the IDF, who have the highest birthrates. Exactly the people Israel and its American supporters don’t want to see outbreeding the secular “mainstream” Israeli Jews.

So Gaza is going to get more and more crowded, more and more angry, more and more willing to take 30 casualties for the chance to inflict just one on the Israelis. That’s about the rate it’s running now, 30 Arab casualties for every Israeli casualty—and you need to realize, that might be absolutely OK with the people in Gaza.

The Palestinians were simple peasants once, easy to lead, terrible fighters. Israel had lots of chances to deal with them, but they had a mandate—nothing worse than a mandate—and didn’t need to make a deal with anybody. Now it’s too late. There isn’t always a good solution at this point in the game. Maybe ten moves back you could’ve won, but not now.

We can talk about hardware, like the Fajr 5 missiles Hamas is firing at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, as long as you keep in mind that this is not about hardware. First, the name: “Fajr” is the dawn prayer, the first and worst when you’re trying to get some damn sleep in any Muslim country. God, how I hated that 4:43 a.m. prayer when I was living right next to a mosque with a sound system that must’ve been run by AC/DC’s convert roadies.

Kinda weird naming a Thud-type missile after a prayer, but then Reagan called his new ICBM the “Peacemaker,” which is kind of a heavy sense of humor too, so who am I to criticize?

The Fajr 5 is an Iranian model with a range of 75 km, which puts both Israel’s big cities, Tel Aviv (where the liberals hang out) and Jerusalem (where the hardliners live) in missile range. I mean, think of that: we’re talking about a place so crowded and insane that a 75km range puts both of the country’s major cities in range—and those missiles are being fired from a giant slum where 1.7 million people are jammed up on the world’s dirtiest beach.

This is about those people, not rocket science.

Now, with that in mind, it’s true that the Fajr 5 is a big improvement on the Qassam rockets Hamas has been making in basements. Those things are just tubes with propellant and something that passes for a warhead. You point them more or less in the direction of the nearest Israeli settlement over the border, move them into somebody’s backyard in Gaza City and hope you won’t be blasted by one of the Predator drones the IDF has zooming like flies in the skies over Gaza, and launch it. It usually lands in a field or the desert, occasionally in or near one of the southern cities, and way more unusually actually kills somebody.

And when Hamas sends a volley of these useless rockets, the IDF responds with very advanced, very lethal guided weaponry. So Israel wins? No, not at all. This is a new kind of war. We aren’t talking about Stalingrad here. This is something new. If Israel used everything it has, well…remember, Israel is supposed to have about 200 nukes. They could wipe Gaza out. They won’t. What they’ll keep doing is sticking pins in Gaza, driving them more and more insane, making sure these people have nothing to do except have lots of babies whose big ambition is to be a martyr for Hamas.

By the time you read this, the IDF may already have started a ground attack on Gaza. I don’t know if they will, or, if they do, exactly how they’ll do it. All I know is that it won’t work.

A war gamer would say it’s simple: you use your superior weaponry to kill everyone in Gaza, lance it like a boil. Well, that’s not gonna happen. Off the table.

OK, then, you kill the bad guys and try not to kill too many good guys. Nope; there are no good or bad guys in Gaza, just goin’-on-two-million people who’ve been harassed and humiliated and driven clean out of their minds till they’re ready to see their own neighborhood flattened on the off chance they might take a few of you with them.

OK, then, you win them over.

Nope. Just plain nope.

Btw, you should really subscribe to http://www.nsfwcorp.com/, it's like $3 a month and they have some really great writers.

Phrixus Zephyr
November 18 2012, 06:22:43 PM
Isn't it nice that Israel has the "right to defend itself", but the average Palestinian doesn't.

Al Simmons
November 18 2012, 06:34:32 PM
Isn't it nice that Israel has the "right to defend itself", but the average Palestinian doesn't.

They can by all means, they just suck at it.

Sacul
November 18 2012, 06:34:55 PM
Its all give and take man. No reason ANYONE has to own religious sites. The Vatican and Rome comes to mind. v0v



:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::psyduck:

Jason you are a good guy but djezus fuck if you dont know what you are talking about please be silent mate.

The Vatican is actually a independent state called the Holy See and it owns everything in the Vatican lands and much much more in Rome and the world being ruled by a Pope and his counsil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See

SteeleResolve
November 18 2012, 06:37:54 PM
If Dublin started firing rockets at London, what do you think would happen?

evil edna
November 18 2012, 06:38:50 PM
lol as if they could afford rockets

NoirAvlaa
November 18 2012, 06:38:52 PM
If Dublin started firing rockets at London, what do you think would happen?

We'd rise up and trounce Johnny Foreigner and be back in time for Christmas!

Keorythe
November 18 2012, 07:13:42 PM
Jason you are a good guy but djezus fuck if you dont know what you are talking about please be silent mate.

The Vatican is actually a independent state called the Holy See and it owns everything in the Vatican lands and much much more in Rome and the world being ruled by a Pope and his counsil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See

I do believe he was pointing out the many religious items and locations throughout Rome and the world not owned by the Vatican.


@Al Simmons
War Nerd is kind of piss poor writing. While he attempt to uncover bullshit, he ends up laddling on his own. His only appeal is that he tries to be stark and gritty about it which appeals in the same way that the Daily Show appeals to many rather than the drab regular news. Except that the Daily Show is true parody while this guy is trying to be serious. If it's hindsight then you'll be find and Dolan's really good at being critical. If it's ongoing or future policy then expect big let downs as he often falls flat on his face and tends to contradict himself. If you're into entertainment in a gonzo style of writing then go for it, just take it all with a serious grain of salt.

I can already see the neg rep coming for challenging this...

Phrixus Zephyr
November 18 2012, 07:24:38 PM
If Dublin started firing rockets at London, what do you think would happen?
Dublin is a place, just like Gaza is a place. Please do try and differentiate between a place name and an organistion carrying out attacks.

James Snowscoran
November 18 2012, 07:40:24 PM
Especially because the name of a nation's capital and its government is interchangeable. "Dublin started firing rockets at London" essentially means the Irish Republic declared war, which isn't very applicable to the situation in Gaza.

Al Simmons
November 18 2012, 07:46:53 PM
If you're into entertainment in a gonzo style of writing then go for it, just take it all with a serious grain of salt.

Mainly this. And yeah, I take it with a grain of salt, I realise the character is a persona and not a real person. Though honestly, he seems more cogent and realistic than many other commentators.

Sykes
November 18 2012, 07:59:36 PM
Especially because the name of a nation's capital and its government is interchangeable. "Dublin started firing rockets at London" essentially means the Irish Republic declared war, which isn't very applicable to the situation in Gaza.

A slightly more sensible comparison would be Northern Ireland during the Troubles, although I don't recall the Royal Air Force being ordered to turn West Belfast into a pile of smoking rubble and corpses by way of retaliation because of anything the PIRA did.

SteeleResolve
November 18 2012, 08:00:04 PM
Especially because the name of a nation's capital and its government is interchangeable. "Dublin started firing rockets at London" essentially means the Irish Republic declared war, which isn't very applicable to the situation in Gaza.

You assume I'm implying something, then give me your subjective view without any reasoning. And still don't answer my question.

Phrixus Zephyr
November 18 2012, 08:05:08 PM
Especially because the name of a nation's capital and its government is interchangeable. "Dublin started firing rockets at London" essentially means the Irish Republic declared war, which isn't very applicable to the situation in Gaza.

You assume I'm implying something, then give me your subjective view without any reasoning. And still don't answer my question.

Your question has no relevance to situation at hand though. Gaza isn't firing rockets, Hamas is. If you seriously think the UK would start dropping bombs on Dublin because of some crazies with bombs, you need to brush up on your history

EchoEpsilon23
November 18 2012, 08:05:31 PM
I'll be honest, I don't like either side of the conflict since this is the Middle East after all. So, I feel like neutrality is the best option however, that leaves feeling like I'm opting out and leaving that issue to those probably as stupid as I am. As well as having a lot of blood on my hands, given that Isrealis and the Palestinians will if not controlled kill themselves until the Isreali's die out. (Statistically speaking, there are alot more Arabs than they are Isrealis, even considering there Armaments).

So what's the best plan of option, well... in my case it's mostly going to sound, stupid, or crazy, or both which is fine. Either A). Let Isreal, Westbank, Gaza, become a unified state in which is controlled by the United Nation given that either one in control will act like massive douchebags and with the UN control we can hope for not as many human war crimes (although there will be a high amount of rapes and murders to occur, in addition to the rampant protests, rebellions, and armed militias of angry jews and arabs) or B). waiting until oil in the middle east runs out, so to make the entire issue a non issue, due to the fact the middle east is only important because of oil, and iran, however this plan will take 30 - 100 years to work it out self out, which maybe a bit long for most politicians. Still we could try plan C). where we nuke everything, but then there would be radiation, and no more holy land that Christians love so much, for some reason. Well when we leave earth for Alpha Centauri, maybe we'll do that.

Yep, crazy, stupid, idiotic, mostly sarcastic.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 08:05:50 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

Phrixus Zephyr
November 18 2012, 08:08:52 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?
Are you being serious?

Sacul
November 18 2012, 08:12:13 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

wutwat? meight Hamas is in control of gaza end the elected party, they fire the rockets. Hezzbollah is the elected party on the west bank and they dont fire rockets.

Really.....stop posting as you have admitted up untill 2 days ago you knew nothing about this subject.

p.s.
Since you like talking to dead generals go talk to Moshe Dayan.

SteeleResolve
November 18 2012, 08:13:21 PM
And yet nobody answers

Zeekar
November 18 2012, 08:18:52 PM
And yet nobody answers

So you are wondering what would happen if there were Irish terrorist attacks on UK soil? Seriously?

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 08:24:01 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

wutwat? meight Hamas is in control of gaza end the elected party, they fire the rockets. Hezzbollah is the elected party on the west bank and they dont fire rockets.

Really.....stop posting as you have admitted up untill 2 days ago you knew nothing about this subject.

p.s.
Since you like talking to dead generals go talk to Moshe Dayan.

I don't have Hezbollah and Hamas confused. Hezbollah isn't doing anything to try and stop Hamas.




And yet nobody answers

So you are wondering what would happen if there were Irish terrorist attacks on UK soil? Seriously?

No we are asking what you think a western government totally un-realted to anything in Israel would do if a neighbor country was ignoring 3rd party attacks being launched from it.

Sacul
November 18 2012, 08:24:07 PM
And yet nobody answers

So you are wondering what would happen if there were Irish terrorist attacks on UK soil? Seriously?

hahah yeah i was assuming a rhetorical question aswell....bombs or rockets its to the same end and we seen what happened with the irish conflict.

Sacul
November 18 2012, 08:27:36 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

wutwat? meight Hamas is in control of gaza end the elected party, they fire the rockets. Hezzbollah is the elected party on the west bank and they dont fire rockets.

Really.....stop posting as you have admitted up untill 2 days ago you knew nothing about this subject.

p.s.
Since you like talking to dead generals go talk to Moshe Dayan.

I don't have Hezbollah and Hamas confused. Hezbollah isn't doing anything to try and stop Hamas.

Ok really now all i can do is facepalm...........Hamas>>Gaza, Hezbollah>>Westbank. Hamas>>fires rockets.
Different areas, different religious nutters, both elected. One shoots and gets shot upon the other doesnt.

I do not know how to make it more clear....will be my last try tho.

Jason Marshall
November 18 2012, 08:29:56 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

wutwat? meight Hamas is in control of gaza end the elected party, they fire the rockets. Hezzbollah is the elected party on the west bank and they dont fire rockets.

Really.....stop posting as you have admitted up untill 2 days ago you knew nothing about this subject.

p.s.
Since you like talking to dead generals go talk to Moshe Dayan.

I don't have Hezbollah and Hamas confused. Hezbollah isn't doing anything to try and stop Hamas.

Ok really now all i can do is facepalm...........Hamas>>Gaza, Hezbollah>>Westbank. Hamas>>fires rockets.
Different areas, different religious nutters, both elected. One shoots and gets shot upon the other doesnt.

I do not know how to make it more clear....will be my last try tho.

Woops. You were right. I did get my religious nutters confused. Sorry.

Varcaus
November 18 2012, 08:29:57 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

wutwat? meight Hamas is in control of gaza end the elected party, they fire the rockets. Hezzbollah is the elected party on the west bank and they dont fire rockets.

Really.....stop posting as you have admitted up untill 2 days ago you knew nothing about this subject.

p.s.
Since you like talking to dead generals go talk to Moshe Dayan.

I don't have Hezbollah and Hamas confused. Hezbollah isn't doing anything to try and stop Hamas.




And yet nobody answers

So you are wondering what would happen if there were Irish terrorist attacks on UK soil? Seriously?

No we are asking what you think a western government totally un-realted to anything in Israel would do if a neighbor country was ignoring 3rd party attacks being launched from it.Ireland isnt a massive slum so no most likely not a full scale invasion :armchair general:

Chrien
November 18 2012, 08:31:48 PM
wutwat? meight Hamas is in control of gaza end the elected party, they fire the rockets. Hezzbollah is the elected party on the west bank and they dont fire rockets.

Really.....stop posting as you have admitted up untill 2 days ago you knew nothing about this subject.

p.s.
Since you like talking to dead generals go talk to Moshe Dayan.

Correction, Hezbollah is in southern Lebanon (and is supported by Iran). The West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, which is run by Fatah (Yassir Arafat's old group). They were run out of Gaza by Hamas in 2006-7 in a mini Palestinian civil war.

Tellenta
November 18 2012, 08:37:54 PM
Especially because the name of a nation's capital and its government is interchangeable. "Dublin started firing rockets at London" essentially means the Irish Republic declared war, which isn't very applicable to the situation in Gaza.

You assume I'm implying something, then give me your subjective view without any reasoning. And still don't answer my question.

Your question has no relevance to situation at hand though. Gaza isn't firing rockets, Hamas is. If you seriously think the UK would start dropping bombs on Dublin because of some crazies with bombs, you need to brush up on your history

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Hamas Gaza's representative government face? What you're saying is akin to 'The United States of America didn't invade Iraq, their military did' and saying that in a way that it absconds responsibility.

definatelynotKKassandra
November 18 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Question for the history people - what was the status of the Gaza strip pre-occupation?

I ask because it's seems obvious to me just by looking at a map that it isn't sustainable as part of a 2-state settlement, simply by virtue of being, as others have said, basically a single giant refugee camp/slum. By contrast the West Bank could, at least in principle, possibly form a stable-ish country if everyone was on their best behaviour, the settler issue got sorted somehow etc etc. But the Gaza strip is tiny, with too many people and completely dependent on Israel and Egypt for access to the outside world. I just didn't see any way it could simulataneously be distinct from Israel and Egypt (i.e. there are still border controls) and also be a stable place.

Sykes
November 18 2012, 08:42:53 PM
If a group of extremists in Ireland was regularly firing rockets into England and the Irish government wasn't doing anything to stop them ontop of helping with their logistics. What do you think would happen?

The PIRA mortared the British Prime Ministers house.

The RAF still didn't turn West Belfast into a pile of smoking rubble and corpses, because whatever John Major's government's failings, and there were many, they weren't completely stupid.

Or to make the comparison with the Israeli government clearer, they weren't a bunch of vengeful racist loons.

Edited to add: actually, being Tories, most of them probably were vengeful racist loons, but evidently vengeful racist loons with a whole lot more common sense and self-control than the ones running Israel.