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RazoR
April 8 2013, 05:03:23 AM
It's not that you post it, Razor, it's just thats all you post. Ever.Somebody has to educate you rednecks.

If i'd post about how F-14 is awesome and F-35 is shit it'd be more of the same.

Jason Marshall
April 8 2013, 05:10:44 AM
F-16 is awesome.

Bears are awesome.

RazoR
April 8 2013, 05:14:56 AM
F-16 is a single engine external fuel tank hog with a funky air intake and microscopic radar.

At least Fulcrum keeps it's shit in.

Jason Marshall
April 8 2013, 05:26:54 AM
I don't care if its good at its job. I like how it looks. Form > Function to us creative types.

CastleBravo
April 8 2013, 05:29:06 AM
It sounds good in theory, but history has a tendency of showing the value of having a fallback plan.


Indeed it does, but at the same time ignoring new capabilities in favor of doing things the old way is an even bigger recipe for disaster. In any case I think the F-35 is covered in this department. If LOAL over the shoulder missile employment fails, it can fall back on high off boresight missiles. If that fails it can fall back on bore sight all aspect missile employment. If that fails it can fall back on bore sight rear aspect missiles and guns, but at a very slight sustained turn disadvantage that really only matters in the mythical 1 on 1 scenario that almost never happens. To design an aircraft for optimal performance when fighting in an obsolete fashion would be like handing a soldier a baseball bat instead of a rifle since it's a better bludgeoning instrument than the rifle would be if the shooty part fails.



IMO, the Joint Strike Fighter Program remains a turkey, which is trying to do way too much with one airframe.


We never could have paid for three separate programs.



Electronic warfare should be handled by a specialized aircraft.


I'm not talking about standoff jamming, I'm talking about self defense jamming and a new concept being developed called cooperative jamming that could defeat missiles with home on jam capability; dedicated EW support aircraft can do neither. There will also be aircraft handling the dedicated EW role fighting alongside the F-35 as well (likely another F-35 carrying next generation jamming pods or in the USN's case an EA-18G) since they perform a completely different role.



The F-35A should be at least 8,000 kilograms lighter than it is, regardless of the theory that E-M is not relevant to 21st century weapons.


That is simply not possible without major capability sacrifices, and EM plots stopped being the end-all performance metric 35 years ago in 1978 when the AIM-9L was introduced. Sustained turn performance is still useful but now that fights last seconds instead of minutes it is no longer as important as it used to be. In any case, EM was only the end-all metric when entering a 1 vs 1 dogfight from equal position anyway. In real combat, i.e. X vs Y where both sides try to engage from an advantageous position, it has always been and always will be situational awareness, cooperative tactics, and the element of surprise that win the day, yet you seem utterly oblivious to the advantages that a VLO signature and unmatched avionics and sensors will provide the F-35.



The F-35A should also have improved visibility for the pilot's eyes, and any camera systems should augment the pilot's vision, not be the middle man.

I'll take a small blind spot to the rear and the ability to "look-through" the entire cockpit over legacy aircraft visibility any day. Maybe you shouldn't read too much into the comments of pilots who have only flown the F-35 a few times and without the use of said camera systems. One of the test pilots who actually gets to fly with the system enabled commented that he is so confident in it that he thinks he could fly a mission with a bag over his helmet.

If the majority of the pilots who get shot down never saw the other guy coming, then obviously excellent situational awareness and hence good visibility is a primary concern. Good thing the F-35 has DAS making it simply impossible to sneak up on since the jet is practically omniscient to anything in its immediate surroundings and will warn the pilot about any aircraft or missile approaching it.

The other main problem with poor visibility is the possibility of the pilot losing track of an aircraft entirely when it passes out of his field of view, but with the DAS system it doesn't matter since the aircraft keeps track of everything for the pilot; all the pilot has to do to reacquire his target visually is follow the cues drawn on his helmet display. This is a tremendous advantage compared to other aircraft where a few seconds spent searching for the enemy after losing sight could mean the difference between victory and defeat. The F-35 will have the equivalent of a flight sim "padlock button" to guide the pilot's eyes towards the closest threat.

Perhaps even more importantly, DAS easily keeps track of ALL aircraft around the pilot, friend and foe. In a real combat situation where there are multiple bandits and friendlies all around the F-35 it is simply impossible for a pilot to keep track of all of them, but the jet has no problem doing it for him. A pilot in an F-35 will be able to build and maintain a more complete picture of the situation around him using less effort than he would in any other jet allowing him to spend more time thinking ahead of his opponents and employing decisive cooperative tactics with his wingmen. An average pilot in an F-35 will fight like an excellent pilot in any other jet, and an excellent pilot in an F-35 will be as close to invincible as it gets. But obviously you are too busy stressing about 10% differences in point performance metrics to care about these things.

Evelgrivion
April 8 2013, 05:41:01 AM
I'm going to defer to the combat record of the Gulf War for the purpose of evaluating missile performance in battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

When it comes down to the F-35's abilities, I'll believe them when I hear about them from the men and women who aren't Lockheed's sales persons or Acquisitions at The Pentagon.

CastleBravo
April 8 2013, 05:43:11 AM
Loaded F-15: 20,200 Kilograms (34,900 lbs of thrust, 50,000 lbs full afterburner)
Loaded F-22: 29,300 Kilograms (47,000 lbs of thrust, >70,000 lbs full afterburner)
Loaded F-16: 12,000 Kilograms (17,155 lbs of thrust, 28,600 lbs full afterburner)
Loaded F-35A: 22,470 Kilograms (28,000 lbs of thrust, 43,000 lbs full afterburner)
Su-27S: 23,430 kg (34k lbf, 55k ab)
Su-35: 25,300 kg (39k and 64k)
MiG-29: 15,300 kg (22k lbf, 36,6k on ab)
MiG-35: 17,500kg (24k and 40k)

inb4 it's illegal to even post russian hardware specs on FHC

The Soviets designed great jets IMO. Had the cold war gone hot in the late 80's I think western fighters would have been at a disadvantage; not that it would have mattered in a war fought by the SS-18 and Minuteman III. After more than a decade without any real funding in Russian fighters, I think the US can claim the lead in fighter tech right now, but I am under no illusions that we are somehow smarter than everyone else and understand that the current situation is only due to continued massive spending.

CastleBravo
April 8 2013, 05:46:15 AM
I'm going to defer to the combat record of the Gulf War for the purpose of evaluating missile performance in battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

When it comes down to the F-35's abilities, I'll believe them when I hear about them from the men and women who aren't Lockheed's sales persons or Acquisitions at The Pentagon.

What's your point about the Gulf war? My understanding is the missiles worked pretty damn well and that BVR became a proven capability. Don't forget that was 25 years before the F-35 is scheduled for IOC. The F-35's missiles are to Gulf war missiles what Gulf war missiles were to Vietnam era missiles. And not believing the F-35's capabilities until proven is a viewpoint I can understand, but you seem convinced that the opposite is true despite a similar lack of proof that your views are accurate.

Jason Marshall
April 8 2013, 06:01:18 AM
http://i.imgur.com/7KfZtxy.jpg

Evelgrivion
April 8 2013, 06:04:07 AM
I'm going to defer to the combat record of the Gulf War for the purpose of evaluating missile performance in battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

When it comes down to the F-35's abilities, I'll believe them when I hear about them from the men and women who aren't Lockheed's sales persons or Acquisitions at The Pentagon.

What's your point about the Gulf war? My understanding is the missiles worked pretty damn well and that BVR became a proven capability. Don't forget that was 25 years before the F-35 is scheduled for IOC. The F-35's missiles are to Gulf war missiles what Gulf war missiles were to Vietnam era missiles. And not believing the F-35's capabilities until proven is a viewpoint I can understand, but you seem convinced that the opposite is true despite a similar lack of proof that your views are accurate.

The point of bringing up the gulf war was to illustrate that the missiles can and will sometimes miss, and dogfights can and will still happen.

I don't hate the F-35 for the abilities designed into the aircraft; it's the a combination of the fact that the aircraft is late, over-budget, and laden with a liability of excess weight should the technology fail that concerns me. The cost inflation is a primary source of outrage. The per airframe cost of the F-35A has more than tripled over the life of the program, from an initial projection of $40 million per aircraft, to $137 million in the 2012 GAO Analysis. I believe it's been stated that they'll be hard pressed to reduce that more than 20% over the remaining life of the program.

Evelgrivion
April 8 2013, 06:31:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atdre1joRsY

Jason Marshall
April 8 2013, 06:48:20 AM
huh. Apache can now CNC drones.

http://www.boeing.com/stories/videos/vid_16_apache.html

Shiroi Okami
April 8 2013, 07:09:46 AM
huh. Apache can now CNC drones.

http://www.boeing.com/stories/videos/vid_16_apache.html


I'm not sure about calling a 30 year old multipurpose workhorse 'the most advanced helicopter in the world', but it is neat nonetheless

RazoR
April 8 2013, 07:13:18 AM
>implying it's not

It may not be armored or well armed but it still packs the most electronics.

Miep
April 8 2013, 08:09:39 AM
J-31
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8630708318_106be847db_h.jpg

RazoR
April 8 2013, 08:51:36 AM
Inb4 those engines are RD-33 knock-offs.

Qui Shon
April 8 2013, 09:41:20 AM
http://i.imgur.com/pm4H1YW.jpg
Four Japanese transports, hit by both U.S. surface vessels and aircraft, beached and burning at Tassafaronga, west of positions on Guadalcanal, on November 16, 1942. They were part of the huge force of auxiliary and combat vessels the enemy attempted to bring down from the north on November 13th and 14th. Only these four reached Guadalcanal. They were completely destroyed by aircraft, artillery and surface vessel guns. (AP Photo)



http://i.imgur.com/XMgORYp.jpg
Japanese bomber planes sweep in very low for an attack on U.S. warships and transporters, on September 25, 1942, at an unknown location in the Pacific Ocean. (AP Photo)



http://i.imgur.com/i7fVkkg.jpg
On August 24, 1942, while operating off the coast of the Solomon Islands, the USS Enterprise suffered heavy attacks by Japanese bombers. Several direct hits on the flight deck killed 74 men; the photographer of this picture was reportedly among the dead. (AP Photo)



http://i.imgur.com/QFYCqEN.jpg
Japanese-held Wake Island under attack by U.S. carrier-based planes in November 1943. (AP Photo)



http://i.imgur.com/CoTfAF9.jpg
Two of twelve U.S. A-20 Havoc light bombers on a mission against Kokas, Indonesia in July of 1943. The lower bomber was hit by anti-aircraft fire after dropping its bombs, and plunged into the sea, killing both crew members. (USAF)




http://i.imgur.com/vZ1MxC6.jpg
Small Japanese craft flee from larger vessels during an American aerial attack on Tonolei Harbor, Japanese base on Bougainville Island, in the Central Solomon Islands on October 9, 1943. (AP Photo/U.S. Navy)




http://i.imgur.com/C9JhL7U.jpg
With its gunner visible in the back cockpit, this Japanese dive bomber, smoke streaming from the cowling, is headed for destruction in the water below after being shot down near Truk, Japanese stronghold in the Carolines, by a Navy PB4Y on July 2, 1944. Lieutenant Commander William Janeshek, pilot of the American plane, said the gunner acted as though he was about to bail out and then suddenly sat down and was still in the plane when it hit the water and exploded. (AP Photo/U.S. Navy)




http://i.imgur.com/ZqfdPpn.jpg
Para-frag bombs fall toward a camouflaged Japanese Mitsubishi Ki-21, "Sally", during an attack by the US Army Fifth Air Force against Old Namlea airport on Buru Island, Dutch East Indies, on October 15, 1944. A few seconds after this picture was taken the aircraft was engulfed in flames. The design of the para-frag bomb enabled low flying bombing attacks to be carried out with higher accuracy. (AP Photo)



http://i.imgur.com/blwurqU.jpg
Smoke billows up from the Kowloon Docks and railroad yards after a surprise bombing attack on Hong Kong harbor by the U.S. Army 14th Air Force Oct. 16, 1944. A Japanese fighter plane (left center) turns in a climb to attack the bombers. Between the Royal Navy yard, left, enemy vessels spout flames, and just outside the boat basin, foreground, another ship has been hit. (AP Photo)




http://i.imgur.com/lPnxIA0.jpg
A Japanese torpedo bomber goes down in flames after a direct hit by 5-inch shells from the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, on October 25, 1944. (AP Photo/U.S. Navy)




http://i.imgur.com/L2WzsVT.jpg
This photo provided by former Kamikaze pilot Toshio Yoshitake, shows Yoshitake, right, and his fellow pilots, from left, Tetsuya Ueno, Koshiro Hayashi, Naoki Okagami and Takao Oi, as they pose together in front of a Zero fighter plane before taking off from the Imperial Army airstrip in Choshi, just east of Tokyo, on November 8, 1944. None of the 17 other pilots and flight instructors who flew with Yoshitake on that day survived. Yoshitake only survived because an American warplane shot him out of the air, he crash-landed and was rescued by Japanese soldiers. (AP Photo)




http://i.imgur.com/IxxOlJ1.jpg
A closer view of the Japanese kamikaze aircraft, smoking from antiaircraft hits and veering slightly to left moments before slamming into the USS Essex on November 25, 1944. (U.S. Navy)



And many more WW2 Pacfic here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/09/world-war-ii-the-pacific-islands/100155/

RazoR
April 8 2013, 04:44:40 PM
Prepare for your weekly dose of rust.

Platypus plane!

http://onebit.us/x/i/yoqIHEoe4q.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/aoGlZ5z2dC.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/dWu4Ak41Jf.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/ROm6Ph3NVu.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/N3FZ8iRfyl.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/xC1LRjDRrT.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/yAOxRpFzdu.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/3CEyBkYzAg.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/OXbFGzHjpG.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/OrUarofYti.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/Mi9UFxr4BC.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/tleg4rGsq5.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/4bh0nBYJxB.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/BIKjR3Kapc.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/GHOHavnOvu.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/wp0IEgqR3w.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/4yrSZwfmtT.jpg
http://onebit.us/x/i/AZbFHwi4Hz.jpg

Frug
April 8 2013, 05:29:13 PM
A platypus! That's what it looks like.

shaewyn
April 9 2013, 04:07:28 AM
http://i.imgur.com/tphv7AX.jpg

thebomby
April 9 2013, 07:46:30 AM
Evil posted this about five pages back.

Evelgrivion
April 9 2013, 07:51:47 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8401/8630723609_82adb6547d_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8113/8632938811_892edcb0ac_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8257/8624655189_c2f91c8d7c_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8381/8624726683_5981ae37d7_k.jpg

Kilabi
April 9 2013, 08:40:02 AM
http://i.imgur.com/jLTH7zF.jpg

elmicker
April 9 2013, 02:52:42 PM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8401/8630723609_82adb6547d_k.jpg

Is that a wind turbine for power on the front of the ECM pod on that EA-6B's wing? That's quite nifty.

Paradox
April 9 2013, 03:22:49 PM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8401/8630723609_82adb6547d_k.jpg

Is that a wind turbine for power on the front of the ECM pod on that EA-6B's wing? That's quite nifty.

It powers the jamming pods without draining internal power. p. good

SteeleResolve
April 9 2013, 07:32:42 PM
Reminds me of the RAT (Ram Air Turbine) they fitted to Tristars, and pretty much shit-tons of other aircraft

thebomby
April 9 2013, 09:04:13 PM
http://i.imgur.com/jLTH7zF.jpg

Nice! UK Phantom.

Jason Marshall
April 10 2013, 08:46:51 AM
http://i.imgur.com/DQ5OzzN.jpg

Crystalline Entity
April 10 2013, 09:37:21 AM
Small image dump
http://i.imgur.com/MsGnn2r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tkSb5uT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mHhX5dG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MZ0bXBe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0lwsdr6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fFOKrDl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/opoEyWA.jpg
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/ts_m5/193_83432_136350_zps9385d723.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img94/2189/militairej2035162013032.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img577/8066/militairej2035182013032.jpg
http://www.military-informant.com/images/news/540945_original.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kcn92C6.jpg
http://aeropuertosantiagodelestero.webs.com/photos/undefined/DSC06431.JPG
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6969/db2f5d9ba2419beac1257b1.jpg
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee393/chuqui22222/100_5765.jpg?t=1341765416
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee393/chuqui22222/100_6036.jpg?t=1341765419
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gYpE3rNcXEk/UC0jhCIWz9I/AAAAAAAAEL8/OC51RMDsgbM/s1600/_DSC7132editadafb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BBfwevr.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6205/25273039181cf44986cbb.jpg
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3143/252644473398cb6aaffeb.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2475/249157381664f35b7bb1b.jpg
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/1278/3175252505807b39bc3fb.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2190/201302130222for238084.jpg

QuackBot
April 10 2013, 10:00:09 AM
http://i.imgur.com/dq5ozzn.jpg
She gets whatever she wants....i get scraps.

Jason Marshall
April 10 2013, 12:47:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CcpUdxlgliA

Lief Siddhe
April 10 2013, 02:34:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaW0ADyXAU

that is all

Frug
April 11 2013, 12:13:28 AM
Being a ball gunner would sssuuucckkkk

Also lol andy rooney.

Lief Siddhe
April 11 2013, 01:24:27 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

QuackBot
April 11 2013, 01:30:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xaw0adyxau that is all
Yeah, all that stupid stuff holding back what should be simultainous releases.

Lief Siddhe
April 11 2013, 04:42:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzZnCkbxgs

Qui Shon
April 11 2013, 06:58:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzZnCkbxgs

Spitfire documentary 2005


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-kPoOoVrfc

Evelgrivion
April 12 2013, 12:43:30 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8263/8640305937_c56dee84aa_o.jpg

Keorythe
April 12 2013, 01:43:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaW0ADyXAU

that is all

It's odd that they did a story like this. The ball turret was the safest position on the B-17 and you had a better chance of surviving a tour if you were inside. 8th Air Force records show that the cockpit and nose section were the most dangerous with the ball turret having the fewest casualties. German fighters liked to do lots of head on runs where there was only the nose gunner which often didn't even face forward (left and right obliques). The turret also had an armor plate on the back hatch covering the gunners back and under his seat. The seat and back plate were rated against the 7.62mm.

Frug
April 12 2013, 02:14:28 AM
It's odd that they did a story like this. The ball turret was the safest position on the B-17 and you had a better chance of surviving a tour if you were inside. 8th Air Force records show that the cockpit and nose section were the most dangerous with the ball turret having the fewest casualties. German fighters liked to do lots of head on runs where there was only the nose gunner which often didn't even face forward (left and right obliques). The turret also had an armor plate on the back hatch covering the gunners back and under his seat. The seat and back plate were rated against the 7.62mm.

I was watching a tv show with a segment on old 666 (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dogfights%20long%20odds%20par t%201) and a big fight it was in, and it was pretty clear from the course of events that it was the front that took most of the fire not only because germans were going after it but also because flying head-on was the a way for the bomber to minimize incoming fire when it was swarmed. That's probably why they added a forward pointing fixed machine gun to their plane.

But there is footage showing attacks from behind, and when doing that it's pretty clear they're repeatedly hitting the ball with ease. It's a fairly big target, and taking it out is probably also important because that ball is pretty dangerous (first confirmed kill by a b-17 was from its ball according to that ball special). Are you sure the ball has fewer casualties than, say, the side gunners?

lucian
April 12 2013, 08:03:24 AM
Ball turret gunners had armor, but almost no chance of bailing out if things got hairy. There wasn't enough room in the turret for the gunner to wear a chute, and it was extremely difficult to climb in and out of quickly...not to mention that the hatch needed to be unlocked to get out out in the first place.

sahtila
April 12 2013, 10:28:25 AM
I was watching a tv show with a segment on old 666 (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dogfights%20long%20odds%20par t%201) and a big fight it was in, and it was pretty clear from the course of events that it was the front that took most of the fire not only because germans were going after it but also because flying head-on was the a way for the bomber to minimize incoming fire when it was swarmed. That's probably why they added a forward pointing fixed machine gun to their plane.

Lol no, it was fighters who preferred to attack bombers from front, less defensive guns there and safer for fighter. Especially german fighters attacking heavily defended US bomber formations over europe chose to attack from front after attacking from behind was seen too dangerous, dont know what was japanese doctorine. Thats also why more forward guns were added to bombers, to respond against changing fighter tactics. Those heavy bombers were agility and speed wise sitting ducks compared to fighters so fighters chose where to attack.

Me
April 12 2013, 10:33:20 AM
Tail gunner was the worst spot to be in, since if they took him out the fighter could just sit in the blind spot and plink away.

CastleBravo
April 12 2013, 12:32:03 PM
That might be true for lone bombers separated from the group, but an enemy fighter trying to fly formation with a bunch of B-17s would get shredded.

Liare
April 12 2013, 10:14:49 PM
That might be true for lone bombers separated from the group, but an enemy fighter trying to fly formation with a bunch of B-17s would get shredded.yes, the raids on Schweinfurt illustrated just how effective massed unescorted B-17's where.

what was it ? 26% losses on a single sortie ?

Evelgrivion
April 12 2013, 10:22:12 PM
Past time for more plane pics.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8118/8642748067_5a68eee390_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8643845076_81db35fafb_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8249/8642748355_4dcb69992c_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8540/8643845062_a793ae1bfc_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8397/8642748709_a43af45617_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8382/8643844840_8ad35a89cf_k.jpg

CastleBravo
April 12 2013, 10:29:35 PM
That might be true for lone bombers separated from the group, but an enemy fighter trying to fly formation with a bunch of B-17s would get shredded.yes, the raids on Schweinfurt illustrated just how effective massed unescorted B-17's where.

what was it ? 26% losses on a single sortie ?

I never claimed massed bombers worked well. I was just pointing out that successful German tactics for fighting the B-17 formations didn't involve trying to hang out behind them and kill the tail gunners.

Straight Hustlin
April 12 2013, 10:59:35 PM
If I'm not mistaken, bomber gunner crews accounted for the vast majority of planes shot down during world war 2.

Hels
April 12 2013, 11:07:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, bomber gunner crews accounted for the vast majority of planes shot down during world war 2.

Wut.

You mean aircrew casualties? Or air to air kills?

Liare
April 12 2013, 11:09:20 PM
If I'm not mistaken, bomber gunner crews accounted for the vast majority of planes shot down during world war 2.lolno.

it might be the case for the 8th AF in a isolated manner, but for the war as a whole ?

nope, that would be other fighters.

Straight Hustlin
April 13 2013, 12:53:08 AM
Sorry mis-spoke, The claim in specific is that B-17 bomber crews accounted for 2/3rd's of enemy fighters shot down during the war, made in the history channel documentary "Empires of Industry: Warplanes of World War 2", on netflix if you have it @ 16:20. I'd guess largely because of the sheer number produced & due to lack of long range escort fighters early on. Whether or not that's actually true I can't say, as I cant find any other source to back it up, and the documentary is pretty `murica!

Crystalline Entity
April 13 2013, 01:35:37 AM
http://www.eglin.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/2013/04/130410-F-zz999-657.JPG

F18
April 13 2013, 02:28:07 AM
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/0/6/9/2222960.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--VbDr6sp_as/T8tg_w7hzZI/AAAAAAAAdgQ/jWJ4dPGpIBI/s1600/De_Havilland_Mosquito_T_III_01-3.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0vtcbC0fB7Y/UGTjdkisvmI/AAAAAAAAF3s/i2ltq0ezwLo/s1600/De%2BHavilland%2BMosquito.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mefplyMPkn1rs8lh5o1_1280.jpg
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/bomber/de-havilland-dh-98-mosquito-bomber/de-havilland-dh-98-mosquito-03.png

Shiroi Okami
April 13 2013, 03:49:34 AM
Beautiful plane, the mosquito

Lief Siddhe
April 13 2013, 05:05:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psUvAUw37D8

SteeleResolve
April 13 2013, 08:20:12 AM
Shit, I wanted to snipe page 216 with this!!!!

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/7/8/1195879.jpg

Answers on a postcard for the reason.....

Jason Marshall
April 13 2013, 10:22:40 AM
Who wants a spitfire?

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/259/f/4/spitfire_flypast_duxford_by_davy59-d2yvr0h.jpg

Larkonis Trassler
April 13 2013, 10:46:30 AM
Shit, I wanted to snipe page 216 with this!!!!

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/7/8/1195879.jpg

Answers on a postcard for the reason.....

216 Sqn at a guess?

QuackBot
April 13 2013, 11:01:36 AM
lolno.

it might be the case for the 8th af in a isolated manner, but for the war as a whole ?

nope, that would be other fighters.
Nope nope nope.

SteeleResolve
April 13 2013, 12:38:13 PM
o7

VladCetes
April 14 2013, 04:55:48 AM
http://wonderingbrit.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/vulcan260507_468x308.jpg

In honor of our Maggie Thatcher Memorial Roam.

Keorythe
April 14 2013, 11:23:54 AM
But there is footage showing attacks from behind, and when doing that it's pretty clear they're repeatedly hitting the ball with ease. It's a fairly big target, and taking it out is probably also important because that ball is pretty dangerous (first confirmed kill by a b-17 was from its ball according to that ball special). Are you sure the ball has fewer casualties than, say, the side gunners?

If firing from behind then the tail gunner and side/dorsal gunners were toast while the armor plate on the ball gave him a pretty decent chance of surviving. Either way, if the tail gun was out then the chances of anyone surviving was pretty much nil since at that point the enemy was pretty much taking his time firing through the inside of the plane and turning the entire fuselage into a slaughter house.

Here's some really detailed records from the 8th AF on casualties. Waist gunners took a serious pounding. Also the vast majority of all casualties and losses seem to be from flack and AA fire, not fighters. This explains the high waist gunner casualties since they had little protection when standing in the open like that.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter9.htm



yes, the raids on Schweinfurt illustrated just how effective massed unescorted B-17's where.

what was it ? 26% losses on a single sortie ?

German pilots feared the massed firepower of a B-17 formation. The link below talks about how they used top down frontal attacks to avoid the firepower. It also reinforces what I said earlier about the front section being the area of most casualties. Schweinfurt also saw the introduction of anti-air rockets which were more devastating than a 1 second burst of gunfire if they hit.

"Fips" Phillips, a 200+ Eastern Front Ace wrote the following while in command of JG 1 defending against American Bombers over Northern Germany:




"Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards 40 fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes."




http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm


Ball turret gunners had armor, but almost no chance of bailing out if things got hairy.

Ball turret gunners could bail out of the ball in midair. The latches were on both sides of the hatch and he only had to rotate the guns up until parallel with the plane (guns had to face straight down to get into it). The problem was that it was pretty tight in the ball and most left the parachute inside the plane.

Turret rotated parallel. Note the entire hatch is free of the ring.
http://www.twinbeech.com/images/TURRETS/Ball%20Turret/Ball%20turret%20014%205x4.JPG
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/719019-2/B-17ball-turr-42

Latches from the inside
http://www.aerovintage.com/485829-4a.jpg

Lief Siddhe
April 14 2013, 02:50:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmpOTX9L3RY

Frug
April 14 2013, 05:25:07 PM
If firing from behind then the tail gunner and side/dorsal gunners were toast while the armor plate on the ball gave him a pretty decent chance of surviving.
That thing would stop the kinds of rounds they got plugged with? Sure doesn't look like it would.

Good stats on casualties, can't argue with that. It does also show that they tended to die a bit more when something did hit them though.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kIWY2DV0KnE/STIpmt6IA6I/AAAAAAAAB0c/mf9y2EkkxMg/s400/B-24+waist+guns+and+ball+turret.jpg




Ball turret gunners had armor, but almost no chance of bailing out if things got hairy.

Ball turret gunners could bail out of the ball in midair. The latches were on both sides of the hatch and he only had to rotate the guns up until parallel with the plane (guns had to face straight down to get into it). The problem was that it was pretty tight in the ball and most left the parachute inside the plane.

As pointed out in one of the videos, this requires the ball to be put in that position, but if your hydraulics are shot out you can't move it to that position. Hence the story of the plane that couldn't put it's landing gear down, and thus had to make a belly landing with the guy still in the ball. Obviously he died a horrible death.

marcus xero
April 14 2013, 08:21:16 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/AGM-123_Skipper_II_with_chasing_A-6_Intruder.jpg

http://www.wallpaperpimper.com/wallpaper/Military/A6_Intruder/A6-Intruder-3-BK420SUXGH-1024x768.jpg

http://s2.subirimagenes.com/otros/6856857a6-intruder.jpg

http://www.airvectors.net/ava6_01.jpg

http://www.aircraftinformation.info/Images/A-6_03.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/us_mil_a6_01.jpg

QuackBot
April 14 2013, 09:00:10 PM
ball turret gunners could bail out of the ball in midair. the latches were on both sides of the hatch and he only had to rotate the guns up until parallel with the plane (guns had to face straight down to get into it). the problem was that it was pretty tight in the ball and most left the parachute inside the plane.

turret rotated parallel. note the entire hatch is free of the ring.
http://www.twinbeech.com/images/turrets/ball%20turret/ball%20turret%20014%205x4.jpg
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/719019-2/b-17ball-turr-42

latches from the inside
http://www.aerovintage.com/485829-4a.jpg
That could do it.

Liare
April 14 2013, 09:03:27 PM
Sorry mis-spoke, The claim in specific is that B-17 bomber crews accounted for 2/3rd's of enemy fighters shot down during the war, made in the history channel documentary "Empires of Industry: Warplanes of World War 2", on netflix if you have it @ 16:20. I'd guess largely because of the sheer number produced & due to lack of long range escort fighters early on. Whether or not that's actually true I can't say, as I cant find any other source to back it up, and the documentary is pretty `murica!fair enough.

the fact is however, that the 8th AF had scary attrition rates until they started deploying P-51's, the numbers elude me, but just GETTING to 25 sorties and clocking out was considered a significant achievement for much for '43.


German pilots feared the massed firepower of a B-17 formation. The link below talks about how they used top down frontal attacks to avoid the firepower. It also reinforces what I said earlier about the front section being the area of most casualties. Schweinfurt also saw the introduction of anti-air rockets which were more devastating than a 1 second burst of gunfire if they hit.it does not change the horrific casualty figures suffered by unescorted squadrons, the reality is that Sturmbock tactics where employed as luftwaffe pilot quality started to drop, rather than as a safety measure for the pilots.

early tactics versus the B-17 was identical to the ones employed against other heavy bombers, come in at high velocity off angle and fire a short burst, then dive, climb and re-engage.

RazoR
April 15 2013, 02:34:46 AM
You have to literally fill the skies with .50s to hinder a Messer strafe.

Tellenta
April 15 2013, 03:05:37 AM
You have to literally fill the skies with .50s to hinder a Messer strafe.

To late to few to bad.

fone poastin

RazoR
April 15 2013, 03:21:53 AM
Well sorry i didn't bring any spreadsheets.

Here, have some pix:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/5/7/2233758.jpg


Messer is much prettier than Focke tbqmfhimo.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/3/2/1974233.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/4/0/5/1974504.jpg

erichkknaar
April 15 2013, 03:30:34 AM
fair enough.

the fact is however, that the 8th AF had scary attrition rates until they started deploying P-51's, the numbers elude me, but just GETTING to 25 sorties and clocking out was considered a significant achievement for much for '43.


Just for reference, the 8th AF suffered more KIA that the USMC in the Pacific theater. More than 26k KIA to just under 20k KIA for the Marines.

Qui Shon
April 15 2013, 11:21:12 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Living_Legends.jpg/754px-Living_Legends.jpg


I was reading a bit about 8th AF, also this page
http://www.8thafhs.org/

THe 8th AF historical society. On its front page it has the following

These Veterans, born in the 1920's, were members of the greatest air armada of all times. They numbered 350,000 men and women with over 54,000 either killed in combat or taken prisoner.

What roles did women serve in, in the 8th AF during WW2, and how numerous were they? Only administrative/office roles?
I've read about WASP before but they were not considered military afaik, but a civil service.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/NARA-542191-WASP-pilot.jpg/250px-NARA-542191-WASP-pilot.jpg
Elizabeth L. Gardner, WASP, at the controls of a B-26 Marauder


Soviets had their "Nachthexen" and three exclusively female regiments, but I was under the impression allies didn't allow any women in front line units.
http://plus.sica.nl/sites/default/files/images/nachthexen_met_vliegtuigen.jpg
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/i55GFqO4Tfo/hqdefault.jpg


EDIT: For reference, USMC had at its peak 485k Marines serving on active duty in 1945, compared to the 350k total for 8th AF, or apparently 200k peak.

Lief Siddhe
April 15 2013, 03:24:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl76cO-Dpic&list=WLYh8x0IDSV390HS4v2V-KkTpnD1zN8q11

FourFiftyFour
April 15 2013, 11:28:33 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Living_Legends.jpg/754px-Living_Legends.jpg


I was reading a bit about 8th AF, also this page
http://www.8thafhs.org/

THe 8th AF historical society. On its front page it has the following

These Veterans, born in the 1920's, were members of the greatest air armada of all times. They numbered 350,000 men and women with over 54,000 either killed in combat or taken prisoner.

What roles did women serve in, in the 8th AF during WW2, and how numerous were they? Only administrative/office roles?
I've read about WASP before but they were not considered military afaik, but a civil service.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/NARA-542191-WASP-pilot.jpg/250px-NARA-542191-WASP-pilot.jpg
Elizabeth L. Gardner, WASP, at the controls of a B-26 Marauder


Soviets had their "Nachthexen" and three exclusively female regiments, but I was under the impression allies didn't allow any women in front line units.
http://plus.sica.nl/sites/default/files/images/nachthexen_met_vliegtuigen.jpg
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/i55GFqO4Tfo/hqdefault.jpg


EDIT: For reference, USMC had at its peak 485k Marines serving on active duty in 1945, compared to the 350k total for 8th AF, or apparently 200k peak.

IIRC there were several female pilots who ferried aircraft across the US and the Atlantic to England.

RazoR
April 16 2013, 12:54:20 AM
Soviets had their "Nachthexen" and three exclusively female regiments, but I was under the impression allies didn't allow any women in front line units.
http://plus.sica.nl/sites/default/files/images/nachthexen_met_vliegtuigen.jpg
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/i55GFqO4Tfo/hqdefault.jpgmate plsss

http://onebit.us/x/i/7tpudgUEKQ.jpg

Lief Siddhe
April 16 2013, 07:22:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLP1ZIehscQ

Evelgrivion
April 16 2013, 07:24:15 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8259/8642183089_41cfbf3247_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8653263310_9c2bea7790_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8538/8653263110_23b81e6768_k.jpg

Me
April 16 2013, 07:43:07 AM
Watched a documentary on the telly a week or so back about the resupply ships resupplying the USN ships patrolling for Somali pirates. Was amazing how much stuff they could transfer so fast.

Mighty Ships: USNS Robert E. Peary was the name, can't find a youtube of it.

Crystalline Entity
April 16 2013, 10:34:09 AM
Some of these are stunning, apologies if reposts

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9997/201304091060248478.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1759/201304091060248479.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/k6k9k.jpg
http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/bs_zps9cc6ae91.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9292/316840212dab051e7ebo.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/4ibfuv.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/fyg9pv.jpg
http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/Bonefast1_zps70932dd2.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5866/52645928725737807284511.jpg
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5025/harrier1.jpg
http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/audiem2491/airforce4_zpsaf7a1c0c.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1754/42475342183963454647620.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5870/a8gyn.jpg
http://107.imagebam.com/download/GO_8O6bgA2WjstqqlsKiXQ/23940/239397489/Jas-39-Gripen-Gripen-Gripen.jpg
http://107.imagebam.com/download/gANJGOwY5KJNf9-8H5tRZw/23940/239397533/Military-Flares-C17-Globemaster.jpg
http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/TwoA-5Vigilante_zps1da62c39.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac180/CondemnedPictures/Image2_zps231f546c.jpg

Eshnala
April 16 2013, 05:12:35 PM
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1754/42475342183963454647620.jpg

Whats that ontop of that plane?

Qwert
April 16 2013, 05:17:55 PM
AWACS radar. Looks like an Embraer R-99 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99) or something similar.

Cedori
April 16 2013, 05:30:01 PM
Some of these are stunning, apologies if reposts

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/bs_zps9cc6ae91.jpg


Two of my favorite planes of all time, B-58 and XB-70

LoKiPP
April 16 2013, 07:46:46 PM
http://i.imgur.com/e5sz7v9.jpg

marcus xero
April 16 2013, 08:01:50 PM
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac180/CondemnedPictures/Image2_zps231f546c.jpg

glorious

SteeleResolve
April 16 2013, 08:37:54 PM
Some of these are stunning, apologies if reposts

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/bs_zps9cc6ae91.jpg


Two of my favorite planes of all time, B-58 and XB-70

http://free-images.gatag.net/images/201108240800.jpg
http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/North%20American%20XB-70%20Valkyrie%20Wallpaper__yvt2.jpg

What an aircraft, my fave since I was a kid <3

Ophichius
April 16 2013, 08:42:35 PM
The physics behind the XB-70 are really, really neat. I know they bent my brain in knots trying to understand even a layman's view of how they worked.

-O

Straight Hustlin
April 16 2013, 08:57:15 PM
Looking at older cold-war era planes just leads me to the conclusion that aircraft designers today lack imagination, style, and that "fuck it lets see if this will fly" mentality. Sure some modern planes are quite sexy, but more in a functional sorta way. I mean shit the XB-70 still looks like it could be from 20+ years in the future.

RazoR
April 16 2013, 08:57:30 PM
I see you Valkyrie and raise you:

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/images/t4_2.jpg

SteeleResolve
April 16 2013, 08:57:59 PM
Its the reason I always make the wings on any paper planes I make for my kids folded down slightly :)

SteeleResolve
April 16 2013, 08:59:16 PM
I see you Valkyrie and raise you:

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/images/t4_2.jpg

Sorry mate, but you ain't got nothing on the Valkyrie with that. Well, cosmetically anyways.

elmicker
April 16 2013, 08:59:56 PM
I see you Valkyrie and raise you:

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/images/t4_2.jpg

I've seen that one, clint eastwood wins

Ophichius
April 16 2013, 09:02:53 PM
I see you Valkyrie and raise you:

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/images/t4_2.jpg

The hell is that? And is it actually a shockwave rider? It doesn't really look like it from what I can see, but it's hard to tell if it has variable-angle wingtips or not.

-O

Cedori
April 16 2013, 09:11:50 PM
I see you Valkyrie and raise you:

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/images/t4_2.jpg

Yeah, no. The T-4 was a truly terrible attempt to blatantly copy one of the truly fantastic "push-the-envelope" planes. The T-4 barely broke Mach 1, the XB-70 broke Mach 3. And was SOOO much sexier to boot.

CastleBravo
April 16 2013, 09:18:07 PM
You can see the damage to the vertical stabilizers on the XB-70 right before the pilots lost control (damage to the F-104 is obviously also visible). Looks like the guy in the F-5 on the left is already trying to get away.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/North_American_XB-70A_Valkyrie_just_after_collision_061122-F-1234P-037.jpg

SteeleResolve
April 16 2013, 09:24:10 PM
I hate the way you reminded me of that :(

RazoR
April 16 2013, 09:35:25 PM
truly terrible attempt blatantly copy truly fantastic "push-the-envelope" barelyoh wow

Also T-4 does 3.0.

Cedori
April 16 2013, 09:54:38 PM
truly terrible attempt blatantly copy truly fantastic "push-the-envelope" barelyoh wow

Also T-4 does 3.0.

Nooo, they claim it does 3.0, it never got above 1.3ish.

The XB-70 did 3.08.

Cool09
April 16 2013, 10:02:32 PM
No, my cancelled program was better than your cancelled program.

Can we get on with pics of stuff.

Ophichius
April 16 2013, 10:14:45 PM
No, my cancelled program was better than your cancelled program.

Can we get on with pics of stuff.


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A-10 says: Fuck you, no.

-O

Evelgrivion
April 16 2013, 11:16:58 PM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8655745494_a9cac58191_k.jpg

indeterminacy
April 16 2013, 11:20:41 PM
Nighttime air ops on a carrier are a sight to behold let me tell you. I had the fortune to observe them while monitoring a coolant discharge from reactor plant 1 onboard the TR. Too bad we were gently turning to port while discharging from starboard despite my protestations :facepalm:

RazoR
April 17 2013, 02:27:37 AM
truly terrible attempt blatantly copy truly fantastic "push-the-envelope" barelyoh wow

Also T-4 does 3.0.Nooo, they claim it does 3.0, it never got above 1.3ish.

The XB-70 did 3.08.I guess F-35 program is ~truly~ fucked then if you want to follow ~facts~.


All the "soviets couldn't even copy stuff right!!1" is just ridiculous, Tu-4 was alright.

Frug
April 17 2013, 02:51:21 AM
Also T-4 does 3.0.

So provide some at least semi-reputable source saying it hit 3.0 on a flight already.

Have a glorious soviet webpage saying exactly what Cedori and every other site I can find says. http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/t4_e.htm

Also it's ugly.

RazoR
April 17 2013, 03:08:10 AM
At least it didn't transform into a fireball~

Frug
April 17 2013, 03:24:34 AM
edit: Probably should spoiler, though gore is hard to see http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr258/gear_monkey/su27airshowukrainelw7.gif

thebomby
April 17 2013, 04:49:14 AM
I see you Valkyrie and raise you:

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/images/t4_2.jpg

Yeah, no. The T-4 was a truly terrible attempt to blatantly copy one of the truly fantastic "push-the-envelope" planes. The T-4 barely broke Mach 1, the XB-70 broke Mach 3. And was SOOO much sexier to boot.

Actually, you're right and wrong. According to the wiki article, the T-4 was a response to the XB-70 but was built and researched from scratch. It really was meant to fly at Mach 3. It didn't attempt to copy the XB-70's shockwave compression lift, but I'm pretty sure they had their reasons for that (the SR-71 didn't use it either). The reason it never reached Mach 3 was because the programme was cancelled when the Soviet brass realised that there just wasn't much use for it.

They bought Mig-23s instead.

And content: F-105 Thunderchief. A plane that is a classic beauty of design to my eyes, up there with the Northrop F-5 and the Mirage F-1

http://www.f-16.net/attachments/f_105_t_o_lr_001b_in_a_142.jpg

http://www.murdoconline.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/b-66-and-f-105.jpg

http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r524/Thormenter/f_105d_62_4364_pussy_galore_ii_405_zps0ce5139d.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GbPcI30qhvQ/TSy01ljKW-I/AAAAAAAABko/dUbePIEz7SY/s1600/F-105F-RE-302.jpg

http://jetpilotoverseas.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/dbfc3950afc088c9_large.jpg?w=949

http://www.jakej.com/photos/F105.jpg

http://www.donhenry.net/43.jpg

http://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/pictures/views/f105d_1_3v.jpg

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/Republic-F105/IMAGES/Republic-F105-Cutaway.jpg

Miep
April 17 2013, 07:43:42 AM
73580 posts and pictures with russian hardware if someone is interested.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?99988-Russian-Photos-%28updated-on-regular-basis%29/page3679

Evelgrivion
April 17 2013, 08:32:29 AM
As a heads up, F-16.net hotlinks don't work.

Izo Azlion
April 17 2013, 08:36:26 AM
Friend of mine said she flew from Glasgow (lol) to Vancouver in a 737.

I called bullshit.

Apparently, 737-800's and 900's (and perhaps earlier models, I didn't spend much time looking at how I'd been proven wrong) can fly a good 5000nm.

Which begs the question - why bother sending a 737 that far with that few (122) people? Isn't it just a retarded idea?

Evelgrivion
April 17 2013, 08:57:41 AM
Friend of mine said she flew from Glasgow (lol) to Vancouver in a 737.

I called bullshit.

Apparently, 737-800's and 900's (and perhaps earlier models, I didn't spend much time looking at how I'd been proven wrong) can fly a good 5000nm.

Which begs the question - why bother sending a 737 that far with that few (122) people? Isn't it just a retarded idea?

I'd venture a guess that Glasgow to Vancouver isn't popular enough to warrant a larger jet, but has enough traffic to allocate a 737 to it.

CastleBravo
April 17 2013, 02:11:22 PM
Actually, you're right and wrong. According to the wiki article, the T-4 was a response to the XB-70 but was built and researched from scratch. It really was meant to fly at Mach 3. It didn't attempt to copy the XB-70's shockwave compression lift, but I'm pretty sure they had their reasons for that (the SR-71 didn't use it either). The reason it never reached Mach 3 was because the programme was cancelled when the Soviet brass realised that there just wasn't much use for it.

The compression lift comes from the shockwave generated by the wedge in front of and between the engine inlets; this is a feature that both aircraft share. The articulating wings are not a requirement to generate compression lift, but they do enhance the effect. The moving wings further reduced induced drag by shifting the center of lift to a better position for high speed flight. They also helped provide yaw stability in the down position by acting like another pair of vertical stabilizers.

walrus
April 17 2013, 02:48:46 PM
Friend of mine said she flew from Glasgow (lol) to Vancouver in a 737.

I called bullshit.

Apparently, 737-800's and 900's (and perhaps earlier models, I didn't spend much time looking at how I'd been proven wrong) can fly a good 5000nm.

Which begs the question - why bother sending a 737 that far with that few (122) people? Isn't it just a retarded idea?

I'd venture a guess that Glasgow to Vancouver isn't popular enough to warrant a larger jet, but has enough traffic to allocate a 737 to it.

Calling BS, no direct flights between glasgow and vancouver, probably flew a 737 on the last leg.

Jason Marshall
April 17 2013, 03:29:00 PM
Sounds recorded from inside the spacestation. One of the astronauts did this for a blind friend of his.

https://soundcloud.com/colchrishadfield/sets/everyday-sounds-from-station

Frug
April 17 2013, 04:36:28 PM
Calling BS, no direct flights between glasgow and vancouver, probably flew a 737 on the last leg.

So I'm checking for any available direct fights from GLA to YVR... and Air Transat are using A330's for the direct flight. I don't see anyone else offering it, and this flight seems rare as I can only find it on one day that I've checked. but they have it daily and I'm bad with travel software.

Equium Duo
April 17 2013, 07:01:36 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

Cool09
April 17 2013, 07:26:58 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.

RazoR
April 17 2013, 07:29:19 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.

Tordin Varglund
April 17 2013, 07:53:22 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.

SteeleResolve
April 17 2013, 08:06:31 PM
Try asking passengers that when they make the UK to Falklands journey

Frug
April 17 2013, 08:12:04 PM
Fuck being crammed like cargo on long passenger flights.

Cedori
April 17 2013, 08:20:38 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.

Obviously said by someone who has not flown coach across enough oceans and/or continents yet.

Don't get me wrong, it is infinitely better then driving/taking a boat.

But it is not awesome after hour 8.

CastleBravo
April 17 2013, 08:24:48 PM
Fuck being crammed like cargo on long passenger flights.

Confirming that long flights on 737s are the worst. A330 > 737 for my fat ass.

Cool09
April 17 2013, 08:28:02 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.

I love flying as much as the next guy, but by about hour 10+ of being crammed in with 100+ other people the awesome factor has worn off. I always get a window seat but the ocean is boring any way you look at it.

I'm looking forard to flying in a Bombardier CS100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries) sometime in the next few years. Porter airlines (a small airline that operates out of their own island airport in Toronto) will be buying some so there's a good chance I'll get a ride in one. It's encouraging to see that Canadian Aerospace isn't dead.

CastleBravo
April 17 2013, 08:40:54 PM
I'm looking forard to flying in a Bombardier CS100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries)

"Narrow-body jet airliner"

yep, it's gonna suck

EDIT: maybe not, looks like wider seats than a 737.

RazoR
April 17 2013, 08:41:30 PM
wat

why

Cool09
April 17 2013, 08:46:42 PM
wat

why

Why what?

RazoR
April 17 2013, 09:01:49 PM
I'm looking forard to flying in a Bombardier CS100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries)

"Narrow-body jet airliner"

yep, it's gonna suck

EDIT: maybe not, looks like wider seats than a 737.

Frug
April 17 2013, 09:15:47 PM
You fatsoes make me look bad. I just don't like sitting in any chair for 8 hours, let alone airline seats. My legs fall asleep, my back usually starts hurting somewhere, and it's boring. Also the air is unpleasant, but that's being picky. The dreamliner was supposed to make things nicer but I guess bursting into flames is worse than dry air.

Now this I wouldn't mind
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BwePWuLN76U/TygE_hOPQSI/AAAAAAAAHdk/J7_vvUn0iQQ/s1600/boeing_787_dreamliner_cabin_interior.jpg

Cedori
April 17 2013, 09:31:09 PM
You fatsoes make me look bad. I just don't like sitting in any chair for 8 hours, let alone airline seats. My legs fall asleep, my back usually starts hurting somewhere, and it's boring. Also the air is unpleasant, but that's being picky. The dreamliner was supposed to make things nicer but I guess bursting into flames is worse than dry air.

Now this I wouldn't mind
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BwePWuLN76U/TygE_hOPQSI/AAAAAAAAHdk/J7_vvUn0iQQ/s1600/boeing_787_dreamliner_cabin_interior.jpg



Actually been there* (go go frequent flyer miles out the ass), after 6-8 hours it still sucks.



*Not a 787 mind, they are supposed to be nicer due to higher humidity/etc, but a number of trans-atlantic and trans-pacific first/business class upgrades.

Izo Azlion
April 17 2013, 09:31:50 PM
Friend of mine said she flew from Glasgow (lol) to Vancouver in a 737.

I called bullshit.

Apparently, 737-800's and 900's (and perhaps earlier models, I didn't spend much time looking at how I'd been proven wrong) can fly a good 5000nm.

Which begs the question - why bother sending a 737 that far with that few (122) people? Isn't it just a retarded idea?

I'd venture a guess that Glasgow to Vancouver isn't popular enough to warrant a larger jet, but has enough traffic to allocate a 737 to it.

Calling BS, no direct flights between glasgow and vancouver, probably flew a 737 on the last leg.

Which is what we said (BS) but she looked around (lol she) and found it. I'll have to have a look when I care more haha. But the Wiki does say an impressive range for the 800-900 series, considering its size.

Shiodome
April 18 2013, 12:03:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Lg-x1tAyE&sns=em

marcus xero
April 18 2013, 12:05:30 AM
the shadow of a Vulcan over a ruined bomber
http://i.imgur.com/wmPO5.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8035/8068753711_277ca1e78c_c.jpg

http://i7.minus.com/iysEIZb1yKeO1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UDx9hHv.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8124/8658796280_1e2010c7a8_o.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TgTwOaA.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4001/4282406750_2cba2ff147_o.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Xz7btJE.jpg

and ofc the repost, the beast, the best:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/B-52H_static_display_arms_06.jpg

FatFreddy
April 18 2013, 12:07:09 AM
You fatsoes make me look bad. I just don't like sitting in any chair for 8 hours, let alone airline seats. My legs fall asleep, my back usually starts hurting somewhere, and it's boring. Also the air is unpleasant, but that's being picky. The dreamliner was supposed to make things nicer but I guess bursting into flames is worse than dry air.

Now this I wouldn't mind
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BwePWuLN76U/TygE_hOPQSI/AAAAAAAAHdk/J7_vvUn0iQQ/s1600/boeing_787_dreamliner_cabin_interior.jpg



Actually been there* (go go frequent flyer miles out the ass), after 6-8 hours it still sucks.



*Not a 787 mind, they are supposed to be nicer due to higher humidity/etc, but a number of trans-atlantic and trans-pacific first/business class upgrades.

I wonder when we reach the point of major over-saturation with digital devices.

I know I already am since my last flight, with the screen in front of my face which would reliably turn itself on again every 1-2mins after I had switched it off. How I long "simpler" and less "comfortable" times at times.

marcus xero
April 18 2013, 12:14:50 AM
It happened in early 1990 in the Persian Gulf, while U.S. carriers and B-52s were holding joint exercises. Two B-52s called the carrier (USS Ranger) and asked if they could do a fly-by, and the carrier air controller said yes.

When the B-52s reported they were 9 kilometers out, the carrier controller said he didn't see them. The B-52s told the carrier folks to look down. The paint job on the B-52 made it hard to see from above, but as it got closer, the sailors could make it out, and the water the B-52 jets were causing to spray out. It's very, very rare for a USAF aircraft to do a fly-by below the flight deck of a carrier.

But B-52s had been practicing low level flights for years, to come in under Soviet radar. In this case, the B-52 pilots asked the carrier controller if they would like the bombers come around again. The carrier guys said yes, and a lot more sailors had their cameras out this time.

http://tailhookdaily.typepad.com/tailhook_daily_briefing/WindowsLiveWriter/image_164.png

http://tailhookdaily.typepad.com/tailhook_daily_briefing/WindowsLiveWriter/b-52%20ranger.jpg

Jeats
April 18 2013, 12:06:14 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.

Not when you're transporting children.

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 2

walrus
April 18 2013, 12:23:00 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk

03.50

Hels
April 18 2013, 06:06:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45KIC46-Pk

Crosspoastin.

kopf
April 18 2013, 06:45:25 PM
Confirming that anything over 8 hours is shit. Haven't flown in a 787 but have flown in the A380 from Singapore to Tokyo. Nice plane, shit flight. Travel is only fun if you don't actually have to

Baarhyn
April 18 2013, 08:30:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45KIC46-Pk

Crosspoastin.

THAT FUCKING NO NIGHT LIGHTING LANDING WTF MAN WTF

Ophichius
April 18 2013, 08:51:11 PM
THAT FUCKING NO NIGHT LIGHTING LANDING WTF MAN WTF

Confirming Hels has fucking superpowers. (Or NVGs)

-O

lucian
April 18 2013, 10:06:49 PM
Confirming that anything over 8 hours is shit. Haven't flown in a 787 but have flown in the A380 from Singapore to Tokyo. Nice plane, shit flight. Travel is only fun if you don't actually have to

I once flew from Okayama Japan to Sao Paulo. I have no memory of anything between reconnecting in San Francisco and waking up somewhere above one of the Guyanas. The first 10 hours of travel were quite enjoyable...the following 37 not so much.

Evelgrivion
April 18 2013, 10:10:57 PM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8126/8661310506_2f2a17d6a5_k.jpg

You like ordnance, don'tcha? Have some ordnance!

marcus xero
April 18 2013, 10:11:53 PM
http://i.imgur.com/bXhXhpN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dEzowmk.jpg

Harriers in the hanger of HMS Hermes en route to the Falklands:
http://i.imgur.com/Ig3LFVt.jpg

http://www.kunsan.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/120302-F-RB551-139.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/m7GymRj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/u7O0wZ7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cKytsdx.jpg

Evelgrivion
April 18 2013, 10:15:05 PM
http://i.imgur.com/EQVSgrJ.jpeg

High Sierra
April 18 2013, 10:20:39 PM
I flew to cancun in some two engined jet liner. We spent nearl 15 hours in the air, I was quite impressed.

After 15 hours in the air I'd be rather un-impressed.
You shut your whore mouth.

Flying is awesome even if you're doing it in airliner.

Not when you're transporting children.

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 2

would just like to confirm....

4.5 hour flight from Cyprus. small child in the seat behind proceeded to cry, scream, wail and barf the ENTIRE flight.

Lief Siddhe
April 18 2013, 11:10:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45KIC46-Pk

Crosspoastin.

THAT FUCKING NO NIGHT LIGHTING LANDING WTF MAN WTF

Night visibility of Eyeball Mk1 is superior to cameras, also instruments? But in any case massive restecpa.

Tyrehl
April 18 2013, 11:11:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45KIC46-Pk

Crosspoastin.

THAT FUCKING NO NIGHT LIGHTING LANDING WTF MAN WTF

Lets buy him a better camera so he can 1080p us :D

Evelgrivion
April 18 2013, 11:25:25 PM
Hels, mad props (huehue) to you.

Out of curiosity, any first impressions of these prospective C-130 replacements?

Lockheed Martin's Speed Agile aircraft:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/120627-F-ZU869-001.jpg

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/5/2cb8fed1-0424-43f7-b558-d117574dbdc6.Full.jpg

Boeing's Speed Agile aircraft:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MpnA9si4GMs/TDB3wf1_XII/AAAAAAAAHL0/8VUrnrhcI9Q/s1600/2beedba8-b6ed-4b5c-8efd-2e2e491ec13e.Full.jpg

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/738757main_speed_agile_in_ntf_2661x1996_946-710.jpg

EDIT: From Boeing's patent

http://i3.minus.com/j5xGBrRDxsjdx.jpg

RazoR
April 18 2013, 11:27:55 PM
It's been over 60 years and merikans still can not into aerodynamic testing.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/thisdayintech/2010/05/F2A_in_Langley_wind_tunnel_1938-660x526.jpg

P.S.: Obvious money sinks. C-130 is a workhorse and these are fucking sci-fi props.

Evelgrivion
April 18 2013, 11:37:02 PM
P.S.: Obvious money sinks. C-130 is a workhorse and these are fucking sci-fi props.

The program demands aren't wholly unreasonable, really. The military wants a faster, 1,500 foot takeoff, low observable transport, which necessitates a lighter and more efficient airframe. The stealthy shapes help fulfill the observability requirements, though their value does seem open for question. Due to budgetary constraints, they have not progressed past aerodynamic testing yet.

marcus xero
April 18 2013, 11:47:45 PM
P.S.: Obvious money sinks. C-130 is a workhorse and these are fucking sci-fi props.

The program demands aren't wholly unreasonable, really. The military wants a faster, 1,500 foot takeoff, low observable transport, which necessitates a lighter and more efficient airframe. The stealthy shapes help fulfill the observability requirements, though their value does seem open for question. Due to budgetary constraints, they have not progressed past aerodynamic testing yet.

this is a Russian chap remember, their only requirement is to look aesthetic as fuck (which they achieve masterfully in almost every single military vehicle on land, sea on in the air). Actual utility comes a distant second.

RazoR
April 18 2013, 11:51:32 PM
looooool

like

seriously

are you event rying to sound reasonable?

Evelgrivion
April 19 2013, 12:31:26 AM
looooool

like

seriously

are you event rying to sound reasonable?

I don't think any reasonable person would doubt the value of a light weight air-transport that can cruise at mach 0.8, take off from a 1,500 foot runway, and carry a payload of 20,000 kilograms.

RazoR
April 19 2013, 12:38:52 AM
Hungry liberals might when C-130 is working perfectly since sand niggers do not have an airforce to even warrant an escort.

~Pushing the envelope~ left USAF with fleets of B-2 and F-22 that now gather dust when they aren't busy bombing alaska while actual work is done by Eagles and Hornets for tenth of the price.

Evelgrivion
April 19 2013, 12:42:30 AM
Hungry liberals might when C-130 is working perfectly since sand niggers do not have an airforce to even warrant an escort.

~Pushing the envelope~ left USAF with fleets of B-2 and F-22 that now gather dust when they aren't busy bombing alaska while actual work is done by Eagles and Hornets for tenth of the price.

I'm kind of surprised at how much effort you're putting into this :p

RazoR
April 19 2013, 12:43:03 AM
ponyfag plsss

Jason Marshall
April 19 2013, 12:45:59 AM
I condone the bombing of Alaska's wonderful and plentiful bombing ranges.

Brings good money to the state.

Do watch out for the hippies and wildlife.

Frug
April 19 2013, 12:46:31 AM
Stop shitting up an interesting topic, Razor.

I'd love more actual discussion on the plane from people who have something to say.

Also contributing
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_8/s_w21_1a35318u.jpg
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_8/s_w02_1a35324u.jpg
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ww2_8/s_w27_1a35182u.jpg

More: http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/08/world-war-ii-the-american-home-front-in-color/100122

RazoR
April 19 2013, 12:57:48 AM
Stop shitting up an interesting topic, Razor.

I'd love more actual discussion on the plane from people who have something to say.ITS A GLORIOUS TECHNOLOGICAL MARVEL THAT WILL BRING ON THE USAF DOMINANCE IN THE MATTER OF COKE AND TP SUPPLY TO THE TROOPS WHO BRING FREEDOM AND LIBERTY TO UNDERDEVELOPED PARTS OF THE WORLD o7o7o7

Boeing prototype gonna fly less like shit with an actual tail, cost a fuckton and be about as stealthy as a C-130. Also low thrust engines aren't a good idea.
LM's engines are too low for unprepared airstrips, GG.
That's what money sink means you fucking mongoloid.

Frug
April 19 2013, 01:03:17 AM
Just acknowledge you have nothing useful to say and go away, instead of reposting an image you complained about already in this thread and spurging your usual same old rhetoric.

RazoR
April 19 2013, 01:05:40 AM
Are you a champion at slapfighting by any chance?

>hurf durf
>say something useful
>ok, here is why hurf is durf
>lol fuck off i'm gonna sit in my den of denial and ignorance

Me
April 19 2013, 01:15:39 AM
I'm with RazoR on this one. Last thing the USAF needs is yet another overpriced, underperforming penis extension.


Just make yet another version of the C-130 with added features for a fraction of the cost.

Evelgrivion
April 19 2013, 01:42:54 AM
I'm with RazoR on this one. Last thing the USAF needs is yet another overpriced, underperforming penis extension.


Just make yet another version of the C-130 with added features for a fraction of the cost.

Looks like I dun'goofed on the program's requirements. The goal is to achieve trans-oceanic ranges with significantly greater payload capacity than the C-130, and STOL capabilities for special operations capabilities. They've been studying this one since the late 1990s, so it's quite likely that even the brass at the Pentagon are uncomfortable with industry's abilities to accomplish the program's goals. Given the boondoggle that is the F-35, that's really saying something. The images I've included are the Lockheed Martin and Boeing Concept Demonstrators for the program, which, in its current form, began in 2002.

CastleBravo
April 19 2013, 04:01:21 AM
~Pushing the envelope~ left USAF with fleets of B-2 and F-22 that now gather dust when they aren't busy bombing alaska while actual work is done by Eagles and Hornets for tenth of the price.

It's not our fault the USSR collapsed and left us with nothing good for the F-22 to go up against.

RazoR
April 19 2013, 04:10:01 AM
~Pushing the envelope~ left USAF with fleets of B-2 and F-22 that now gather dust when they aren't busy bombing alaska while actual work is done by Eagles and Hornets for tenth of the price.

It's not our fault the USSR collapsed and left us with nothing good for the F-22 to go up against.Yeah well it's your fault if it's been over 20 years and you still haven't realized that.

P.S.: T-50 is boss.

Frug
April 19 2013, 05:58:31 AM
Looks like I dun'goofed on the program's requirements. The goal is to achieve trans-oceanic ranges with significantly greater payload capacity than the C-130, and STOL capabilities for special operations capabilities. They've been studying this one since the late 1990s, so it's quite likely that even the brass at the Pentagon are uncomfortable with industry's abilities to accomplish the program's goals. Given the boondoggle that is the F-35, that's really saying something. The images I've included are the Lockheed Martin and Boeing Concept Demonstrators for the program, which, in its current form, began in 2002.

Their performance on actually executing a project in a sensible manner is about as interesting as the plane. Also I like how Boeing's version looks. The LM one is so retro it's almost awesome, but ehhh.

Alas the Boeing one looks like the engines might be hard to get to/replace? Unlike something sticking out under the wings?

Hels
April 19 2013, 06:48:16 AM
Looks like I dun'goofed on the program's requirements. The goal is to achieve trans-oceanic ranges with significantly greater payload capacity than the C-130, and STOL capabilities for special operations capabilities. They've been studying this one since the late 1990s, so it's quite likely that even the brass at the Pentagon are uncomfortable with industry's abilities to accomplish the program's goals. Given the boondoggle that is the F-35, that's really saying something. The images I've included are the Lockheed Martin and Boeing Concept Demonstrators for the program, which, in its current form, began in 2002.

Sounds like they want everything.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it ain't gonna happen. If you want proper tactical level, intra-theatre airlift then you get a C-130, or something like it. The reason it has been around for 60 years now, with the Russians having their own respectably neato version is that it fucking works. If you want to move stuff trans-oceanic you look towards a C-17 and C-5, which I might remind you, the C-17 has some limited assault capability, but only limited due to the fact that their thrust reversers mostly push them down vs backwards, adding thousands upon thousands of pounds to their 'weight' to help slow them, which does limit them to a thin selection of prepared surfaces. However, it does exist.

Trying to do all of these with one aircraft is more or less a folly, but a great pipedream to chase.

In the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on C-130s and keep sending them out to fight the real war.

Hels
April 20 2013, 03:05:43 PM
720p version of video linked earlier.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33100337/C-130s%20in%20A-Town%20720p.mp4

elmicker
April 20 2013, 03:45:00 PM
In the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on C-130s...

Didn't they just do this?

Ophichius
April 20 2013, 04:02:49 PM
In the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on C-130s...

Didn't they just do this?

Hels won't be happy until he can break Mach 1 in a vertical climb.

-O

RazoR
April 20 2013, 05:37:43 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble but it ain't gonna happen. If you want proper tactical level, intra-theatre airlift then you get a C-130, or something like it. The reason it has been around for 60 years now, with the Russians having their own respectably neato version is that it fucking works.Frug ain't got shit on this, comrade.

re: An-12
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/7/9/2230976.jpg

420 smoke errytakeoff

Ophichius
April 20 2013, 07:04:01 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble but it ain't gonna happen. If you want proper tactical level, intra-theatre airlift then you get a C-130, or something like it. The reason it has been around for 60 years now, with the Russians having their own respectably neato version is that it fucking works.Frug ain't got shit on this, comrade.

re: An-12
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/7/9/2230976.jpg

420 smoke errytakeoff

I thought Russian planes burned vodka, not weed.

-O

SAI Peregrinus
April 20 2013, 10:14:03 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble but it ain't gonna happen. If you want proper tactical level, intra-theatre airlift then you get a C-130, or something like it. The reason it has been around for 60 years now, with the Russians having their own respectably neato version is that it fucking works.Frug ain't got shit on this, comrade.

re: An-12
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/7/9/2230976.jpg

420 smoke errytakeoff

I thought Russian planes burned vodka, not weed.

-O

No Russian would ever BURN vodka!

Idara
April 20 2013, 10:18:20 PM
Pilots drink it during flights to keep their minds off the fact they're flying Soviet planes.

RazoR
April 20 2013, 10:54:36 PM
Soviet planes.>implying it's something bad

FatFreddy
April 20 2013, 11:06:58 PM
clearly a typo, Idara meant to write "to celebrate the fact they're flying soviet planes"

Frug
April 21 2013, 12:28:02 AM
Frug ain't got shit on this, comrade.

Actually that's what I wanted. Someone with something to say. I already know what your opinion of everything is before you say it, so I asked you to stop shitting up this good thread.


Brewster best ster
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h97000/h97540.jpg

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k00001/k00830.jpg

How can they possibly see anything
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4066/4564606788_b36966561a_z.jpg

Ophichius
April 21 2013, 12:44:34 AM
That's actually for teaching them to fly by instruments alone. They can't see anything, they're supposed to navigate using just the instrument panel. Instructor sits up front and takes control of the plane if the student screws up. How they used to do it before flight sims. (Though they did have ground trainers which functioned as very rudimentary flight sims.)

-O

QuackBot
April 21 2013, 01:00:14 AM
sounds like they want everything.

sorry to burst your bubble but it ain't gonna happen. if you want proper tactical level, intra-theatre airlift then you get a c-130, or something like it. the reason it has been around for 60 years now, with the russians having their own respectably neato version is that it fucking works. if you want to move stuff trans-oceanic you look towards a c-17 and c-5, which i might remind you, the c-17 has some limited assault capability, but only limited due to the fact that their thrust reversers mostly push them down vs backwards, adding thousands upon thousands of pounds to their 'weight' to help slow them, which does limit them to a thin selection of prepared surfaces. however, it does exist.

trying to do all of these with one aircraft is more or less a folly, but a great pipedream to chase.

in the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on c-130s and keep sending them out to fight the real war.
Lana would get you a job soffles.

walrus
April 21 2013, 01:08:31 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Republic_Rainbow.jpg
so sexy

Frug
April 21 2013, 01:10:32 AM
That's actually for teaching them to fly by instruments alone.

It's the Brewster xsba-1. I know they have planes for instrument only training but I don't think that's one. It just looks like it has terrible visibility.

http://naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/pages/doncoms/Display.php?irn=16033677&QueryPage=%2Femuwebdoncoms%2Fpages%2Fdoncoms%2FQue ry.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Aircraft_Factory_SBN

http://naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=16027929&size=175x137&image=yes

RazoR
April 21 2013, 01:30:19 AM
Frug ain't got shit on this, comrade.Actually that's what I wanted. Someone with something to say. I already know what your opinion of everything is before you say it, so I asked you to stop shitting up this good thread.What you want is not always what you need.

Evelgrivion
April 21 2013, 09:03:39 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8265/8664122644_2902035f3a_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8264/8663024109_bac85e6f35_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8263/8663024259_2634fbfe89_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8255/8663024523_5b6726c3a0_k.jpg

Right Rudder
April 21 2013, 09:59:45 AM
In the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on C-130s...

Didn't they just do this?

In the meantime, my 18,800 J horsepower accelerating at 20 degrees nose-high says wassup. Nice job setting up your Go-Pro suite from the desk; guess that's a benefit of riding along on the party bus.

Yokota goes legit in 2016 fiscal according to some random WIC guy(lol Lockeed Martin production timelines.)

Evelgrivion
April 21 2013, 10:22:36 AM
In the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on C-130s...

Didn't they just do this?

In the meantime, my 18,800 J horsepower accelerating at 20 degrees nose-high says wassup. Nice job setting up your Go-Pro suite from the desk; guess that's a benefit of riding along on the party bus.

Yokota goes legit in 2016 fiscal according to some random WIC guy(lol Lockeed Martin production timelines.)

What do you mean by "go legit?"

tekai
April 21 2013, 11:45:14 AM
Brewster pics
anybody got pictures of best brewster, with blue swastikas?

Qui Shon
April 21 2013, 12:55:25 PM
There's the wreck of one at a museum over here, can see it in their "virtual musem"
http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/flash.asp?file=2

And from inside the cockpit
http://virtuaalikuvat.com/jamiflyin/?p=0&t=8

Hels
April 21 2013, 02:33:36 PM
In the meantime, put stronger engines and new props on C-130s...

Didn't they just do this?

In the meantime, my 18,800 J horsepower accelerating at 20 degrees nose-high says wassup. Nice job setting up your Go-Pro suite from the desk; guess that's a benefit of riding along on the party bus.

Yokota goes legit in 2016 fiscal according to some random WIC guy(lol Lockeed Martin production timelines.)

What do you mean by "go legit?"

He means get J-models, and become C-17s w/props vs true tactical airlift.
Also he's just upset he doesn't have a Nav and Eng and has to rely on the Copilot alone to do things like 'think' and 'be useful'. :P

Can confirm 2016 as current projected date, however it has slipped 1 year each year for the past 2 years (was 2014 when I showed up to Yokota), so who knows.

tekai
April 21 2013, 09:16:19 PM
There's the wreck of one at a museum over here, can see it in their "virtual musem"
http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/flash.asp?file=2

And from inside the cockpit
http://virtuaalikuvat.com/jamiflyin/?p=0&t=8

wow that cockpit view is awesome

Qui Shon
April 22 2013, 12:08:58 PM
Back before people went overboard with pussification, they could have these things in a playground for kids to play with. Picture is from 1952, from the city of Tampere.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Brewster_F2A-1_Saukonpuiston_leikkikentällä.jpg
Man I would've had such fantasy aerial battles in that as a small child if it'd have been in my playground :p


There used to be what I think was a T-28 tank (http://i.imgur.com/RgHPTM6.jpg) rusting away in the middle of a forest near our vacation cottage when I was a kid, and I remember being quite taken by it. But they hauled it away as "too dangerous" long time ago, before the eco-craze, or the removal would have been justified with it being an environmental hazard instead.



As for images of Finnish Brewsters I don't have any really, though found a few.

Hans Wind, Finnish fighter ace with 41 kills in a Brewster. More on this ace (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace02.htm)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/697392-2/Hans_Wind_Brewster_B-239
-"The Finns Brewsters did not have any arrestor gear on their planes like the U.S. Navy and Marines did. I don't know the exact weight of the arrestor gear but it was substantial."
-"Pappy Boington said in an interview that American engineers ruined the Brewster buffalo by adding to much amour and equipment. The Finns got the first series and which was light. Finns added o armored chair and a reflex sight. Ant that was it. The best fighter of history. 50 to 1 kill ratio."


They had to work with some pretty rough makeshift landing strips
http://i.imgur.com/iQbVVgG.jpg



In 1942 this Brewster BW-342 piloted by Lauri Pekuri caught on fire, yet Pekuri managed to score one more kill before crash landing in a lake on Soviet held territory. Gasoline burned on the surface of the water, but Pekuri managed to escape by diving, and then walking 20km back to his own lines.
In 1994 his former colleague started searching for the plane and they found it in 1998, fished it up out of the lake. It ended up in a museum in USA.
http://i.imgur.com/9NO1mle.jpg

Me
April 22 2013, 12:51:58 PM
Have an Australian one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Brewster_Model_339_Buffalo.jpg


Buffalo AN185/TD-V was flown by Flight Lieutenant Richard Vanderfield, who shot down three Japanese bombers (two Ki-48s and one Ki-51) over Butterworth, Penang on 13 December 1941, while his undercarriage was still down.

Liare
April 22 2013, 12:55:38 PM
in before Razor

Qui Shon
April 22 2013, 01:04:08 PM
in before Razor

Ilyushin DB-3M with Finnish markings
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Ilyushin_DB-3M.jpg

Polikarpov I-153
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/I-153.jpg

Polikarpov I-16
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Polikarpov_uti4_helsinki_2.jpg/800px-Polikarpov_uti4_helsinki_2.jpg


:razor:


Finns didn't have a lot of materiel, so whatever they got their hands on, was put to use if at all possible/feasible. Though granted the two seater training aircraft UTI-1 above was a demonstrator, flown around to allow Finnish squadrons a closer inspection of the most common enemy fighter.

RazoR
April 22 2013, 03:59:22 PM
Buffalo AN185/TD-V was flown by Flight Lieutenant Richard Vanderfield, who shot down three Japanese bombers (two Ki-48s and one Ki-51) over Butterworth, Penang on 13 December 1941, while his undercarriage was still down.>implying undercarriage affects buffalo's aerodynamics

Klesk
April 23 2013, 01:54:24 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22254048

"Over his career, he flew 487 different types of aircraft, a world record that is unlikely ever to be matched"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_flown_by_Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown

Interview (uk only)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rw940

Eshnala
April 23 2013, 03:36:36 PM
So i watched Zero Dark Thirty yesterday.

Are there any new infos or pictures about that stealth BlackHawk they used to get to bin ladens house?

Tellenta
April 23 2013, 06:41:11 PM
So i watched Zero Dark Thirty yesterday.

Are there any new infos or pictures about that stealth BlackHawk they used to get to bin ladens house?

Nothing official i believe, it is still a "secret".

fone poastin

Tellenta
April 23 2013, 06:47:38 PM
So i watched Zero Dark Thirty yesterday.

Are there any new infos or pictures about that stealth BlackHawk they used to get to bin ladens house?

Nothing official i believe, it is still a "secret".

fone poastin

Link to basically as much as you are allowed to know. Beyond that its all guess work.

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20110504/NEWS/105040314/Mission-helo-secret-stealth-Black-Hawk

fone poastin

Gama24
April 23 2013, 08:33:20 PM
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2011/05/mh-x3-660x410.jpg

Wired has a nice article about it: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/aviation-geeks-scramble-to-i-d-osama-raids-mystery-copter/3/

Evelgrivion
April 23 2013, 09:28:33 PM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8120/8674235311_a1bc2426ec_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8383/8675338616_4d3856b88b_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8121/8674707131_a039718d50_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8542/8674709601_07748ce957_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8675817652_5acb0b2ee5_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8527/8674713649_29bd2bb9aa_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8403/8675819396_0211cf2953_k.jpg

Evelgrivion
April 25 2013, 08:45:25 AM
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/68/176021713_9cd1624900_o.jpg

Qui Shon
April 25 2013, 09:52:47 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22254048

"Over his career, he flew 487 different types of aircraft, a world record that is unlikely ever to be matched"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_flown_by_Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown

Interview (uk only)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rw940

I have to admit, I am envious of this man. What a career in aviation.


^Fortress wreck above, man, that makes me sad. Pics of old wrecks don't usually do that, instead they cause some sense of awe, some imaginings about history, but for some reason that wreck... it just looks so...broken, on a whole other level.

walrus
April 25 2013, 05:18:07 PM
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/68/176021713_9cd1624900_o.jpg

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-17/41-9234.html

Jason Marshall
April 26 2013, 02:41:23 AM
http://i.imgur.com/nVlR7XW.jpg

Lief Siddhe
April 26 2013, 04:20:47 AM
fuk ye p40

Evelgrivion
April 26 2013, 08:07:01 AM
http://wordlesstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft-2.jpg

Boeing's updated concept for a 6th Generation fighter for the Navy.

RazoR
April 26 2013, 08:09:32 AM
Canards but no tail? lel

Evelgrivion
April 26 2013, 08:15:59 AM
Canards but no tail? lel

It's an interesting method. They seem to be aiming for broadband stealth, but with superior kinematics to existing aircraft, while dramatically increasing the aircraft's range over existing systems. In other words, it's a stealth replacement to the F-14.

Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin has gone positively nuts with gallery uploads.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8540/8680035767_f1c962bb3f_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8680030049_58b15c8d3c_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8399/8681140580_25fd9f459a_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8681145150_40277579a9_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8534/8681138696_89ef7fa82e_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8521/8681141380_0eae2288ce_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8265/8680032193_9c0d4a5cf2_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8544/8681142604_1a0220392f_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8401/8681144072_a3e167c4c8_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8681144664_82fc4cea1f_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8545/8681145600_3a463cf036_k.jpg

walrus
April 26 2013, 08:25:38 AM
Canards but no tail? lel

Maybe they're going for proper soviet thrust vectoring.

sent by wizardry

RazoR
April 26 2013, 08:28:44 AM
Thrust vectoring isn't for stabilizing. They'll have to power it with rocket engines.

Evelgrivion
April 26 2013, 08:31:08 AM
Thrust vectoring isn't for stabilizing. They'll have to power it with rocket engines.

Today's tailless aircraft don't seem to be dead without vertical control surfaces; I imagine Boeing's engineers know what they're doing with yaw control.

I suspect they'll be pushing for multiple performance optimization points with the engines as well.

QuackBot
April 26 2013, 09:00:11 AM
canards but no tail? lel
No i don't know how much oil it produces but i do not know, which is lel.

thebomby
April 26 2013, 10:34:18 AM
http://wordlesstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft-2.jpg

Boeing's updated concept for a 6th Generation fighter for the Navy.

The concept's been around for a while. BAe had a concept based on a fighter controlling a squad of UCAVs back in the 90s, iirc. The idea is pretty sound, I think. Sometimes a human is needed but he can hang back and let his robots do the dangerous stuff.

thebomby
April 26 2013, 10:35:08 AM
canards but no tail? lel
No i don't know how much oil it produces but i do not know, which is lel.

>Tailless canard
>Quackbot

Ophichius
April 26 2013, 11:21:47 AM
http://wordlesstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft-2.jpg

Boeing's updated concept for a 6th Generation fighter for the Navy.

Odd, the inlets appear to lack the bend normally used to obscure the turbine from radar. Indications that they solved the issue of returns off the turbine, or oversight?

-O

RazoR
April 26 2013, 11:38:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvarEU9oEIY

http://onebit.us/x/i/ylThERHPAA.jpg

sokken
April 26 2013, 12:19:32 PM
The correct way of doing props. Good to see not only bears get them.

http://i.imgur.com/iezfSET.jpg

RazoR
April 26 2013, 12:58:19 PM
twin tail best tail

hnnnnnnnnnngh

Paradox
April 26 2013, 01:45:21 PM
http://wordlesstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft-2.jpg

Boeing's updated concept for a 6th Generation fighter for the Navy.

Odd, the inlets appear to lack the bend normally used to obscure the turbine from radar. Indications that they solved the issue of returns off the turbine, or oversight?

-O

:artists impression:

Jurskjeld
April 26 2013, 02:50:45 PM
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/4/2/1626242.jpg
What is that... vision.. thing in the Antei's cockpit?

kopf
April 26 2013, 06:19:56 PM
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/4/2/1626242.jpg
What is that... vision.. thing in the Antei's cockpit?

Hey look, a trolling motor!

Evelgrivion
April 26 2013, 08:55:23 PM
http://wordlesstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sixth-generation-fighter-aircraft-2.jpg

Boeing's updated concept for a 6th Generation fighter for the Navy.

Odd, the inlets appear to lack the bend normally used to obscure the turbine from radar. Indications that they solved the issue of returns off the turbine, or oversight?

-O

:artists impression:

The F-35's inlets are diverterless too; it's conceivable that the engineers believe supersonic inlet diversion is more trouble than it's worth.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8529/8682921633_a354d10e52_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8396/8682921821_da0ce33552_k.jpg

Jason Marshall
April 26 2013, 09:23:53 PM
I bet Iran builds a mockup dummy of the 6th gen fighter before boeing does. :D

CastleBravo
April 27 2013, 01:28:26 AM
The F-35's inlets are diverterless too; it's conceivable that the engineers believe supersonic inlet diversion is more trouble than it's worth.


Diverterless supersonic inlets serve the same purpose as intake ramps (like on the F-15) and shock cones (like on the Mig-21) for controlling supersonic airflow into the engine; they don't have anything to do with low observability. It is possible to build a DSI that does not hide the compressor and it is possible to hide the compressor without a DSI. The F-35 and F-22 use a curved intake duct to prevent radar reflections off of the engine blades from exiting the ductwork.

http://www.kbvp.com/sites/default/files/images/F22%20front%20view%20tight.preview.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fP7ZHF3g3yg/SwLfy2KwcJI/AAAAAAAAAM0/tOBxXwRmRgg/s1600/Lockheed+F-35+Lightning+II+missiles.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/attachments/shop_118.jpg

Evelgrivion
April 27 2013, 05:05:15 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8382/8684253060_560cdc889b_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8536/8683136925_acace36483_k.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8392/8683135921_04f9f2a6c2_k.jpg

elmicker
April 27 2013, 02:36:29 PM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8392/8683135921_04f9f2a6c2_k.jpg

First photo I've seen that's really made me get how much bigger the Super Hornet is than the Hornet.

Jason Marshall
April 28 2013, 05:38:24 PM
Awesome story about how they moved SR-71's to their bases after their construction.

http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/transporting_the_a-12.html?m=8

A few images from the site.
http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/transporting_the_a-12_v2/image014.jpg
http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/transporting_the_a-12_v2/image023.jpg

marcus xero
April 28 2013, 11:53:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/WCZFwAl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TGtmppb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/h0bPZHb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XFoqZaH.jpg

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/130424-N-TC437-190.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PPvH1.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7049/6961714614_b7cf02b438_k.jpg

CastleBravo
April 29 2013, 12:04:44 AM
C-130 gets airborne in 0ft.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-vXJsYyNk

Hels
April 29 2013, 08:26:23 AM
C-130 gets airborne in 0ft.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-vXJsYyNk

iirc that one was hit by an IED on landing. British one I think.

Jason Marshall
April 29 2013, 10:04:39 AM
If Im reading and google fu-ing correctly. It had mechanical issues and was deemed too expensive to relocate/repair. It was initially damaged by indirect fire then blown up by the british to prevent salvage by unsavory parties.

Evelgrivion
April 29 2013, 10:31:24 AM
http://www.robert-stetter.de/ila/pics/Su37f16.jpg

RazoR
April 29 2013, 11:10:15 AM
lookit dat cute littel falcon, dawwwww

HALT

FLANKERZEIT

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/9/6/1110697.jpg

http://army.lv/large-photos/su-27.28245.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LxfEjAxXiaE/Sl0xVXAZFYI/AAAAAAAAAGY/eXWkieVkIOE/s1600/su27smk.jpg

http://img.desktopwallpapers.ru/avia/pics/su-27-1024.jpg

http://army.lv/large-photos/su-27.28456.jpg

http://s5.goodfon.com/image/257239-2000x1480.jpg

Evelgrivion
April 29 2013, 12:16:25 PM
http://i.imgur.com/zxAaF10.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/De_Havilland_Sea_Vixen_at_Yeovilton_2009.JPG

QuackBot
April 29 2013, 01:00:11 PM
iirc that one was hit by an ied on landing. british one i think.
One has to be british.

Crystalline Entity
April 29 2013, 03:00:15 PM
http://i.imgur.com/MpNPrIU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f5C0365.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3nrzgNo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qJi1j2C.jpg
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6001/273721365338073.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/84/246231365338013.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4135/30348152.160/0_6d93a_1e33ebac_orig
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5628/30348152.160/0_6d94a_7e66b093_orig
http://i.imgur.com/Javqy0w.jpg

Apparently these pretty images are timelapse pics of an ICBM being tested with dummy warheads. All those came from one missile
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2886/peacekeepermissilemirv.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/8789/mirvreentry2.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4519/kwajaleinreentry.jpg

Evelgrivion
April 30 2013, 10:43:42 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8402/8692408935_d7ddc869a2_k.jpg

Right Rudder
April 30 2013, 02:25:20 PM
C-130 gets airborne in 0ft.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-vXJsYyNk

iirc that one was hit by an IED on landing. British one I think.

Our J British exchange guy was one of their squadron mates (M8) he has told us the story more then once. Ground based IED blew off both the wing tips on short final (like 50 ft AGL) and they landed without realizing they had been hit; just thought it was some sort of control surface malfunction. JDAM/Ground explosives (unconfirmed which) got dropped on the aircraft after higher authorities realized it was pretty much unrecoverable and would basically cost as much as a brand new plane to repair.

And we currently value a stretch J at like ~65ish million murican.

CastleBravo
April 30 2013, 07:16:51 PM
Seven dead in crash of civilian cargo aircraft at Bagram Air Field in A-Stan. Initial reports are that the cargo shifted to the rear causing the an uncontrollable pitch up from the extreme rearward center of gravity.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfVsql38oc

Evelgrivion
May 1 2013, 12:22:09 AM
Seven dead in crash of civilian cargo aircraft at Bagram Air Field in A-Stan. Initial reports are that the cargo shifted to the rear causing the an uncontrollable pitch up from the extreme rearward center of gravity.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfVsql38oc

Holy crap :/ Bye bye 747

CastleBravo
May 1 2013, 12:31:57 AM
I wonder if they make the 747s follow a special flight profile on take off to minimize MANPADS exposure; flying on the edge of the envelope could make the aircraft much more vulnerable to departure from controlled flight during mishaps like shifting cargo or control surface malfunctions.

Alistair
May 1 2013, 12:36:15 AM
Not Russian.

Total Failure.

But I always loved the look of the B1.

http://britishexpats.com/photopost/data/637/B1_Bomber.jpg

Ophichius
May 1 2013, 01:48:29 AM
I wonder if they make the 747s follow a special flight profile on take off to minimize MANPADS exposure; flying on the edge of the envelope could make the aircraft much more vulnerable to departure from controlled flight during mishaps like shifting cargo or control surface malfunctions.

By definition you're already flying on the edge of the envelope during takeoff. Having your CoG suddenly wedge itself into the ass end of the plane pretty much means you're fucked. No special flight profile required. Especially given that they were apparently transporting military vehicles. Assuming they were transporting MRAPs, 5 MRAPs = 100-125 tons. Having that much mass decide to shift back on you as soon as you rotate is going to ruin your day real fast.

Hels or Right Rudder can probably enlighten us more on this sort of thing, it's their bailiwick after all.

-O

CastleBravo
May 1 2013, 02:04:49 AM
My understanding is that Velocity-rotation is somewhat higher than stall speed due to needing a margin for engine failure over the speed needed to safely climb out.

Soapy5
May 1 2013, 02:51:43 AM
1000's post

was going to post ponies but then i saw this video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfWuKse2LwI

inb4 repost

Right Rudder
May 1 2013, 05:44:33 AM
I wonder if they make the 747s follow a special flight profile on take off to minimize MANPADS exposure; flying on the edge of the envelope could make the aircraft much more vulnerable to departure from controlled flight during mishaps like shifting cargo or control surface malfunctions.
Those guys don't give a damn about Manpads, not like they have defensive systems on board; no cargo aircraft climb profile is going to help that. Our primary concern was never manned threats, the mountains or ground are far more likely to kill you on any given day. The required climb gradient out of Bagram isn't too heinous but from what i have been reading/hearing it was a drastic cargo CG shift (aka shit breaking loose and rolling backwards). Once it stalled out they went nose low (which airframes are designed too do to enable airspeed/control authority) but they were just didn't have enough altitude. Hence why loadmasters pro at locking shit down are important, cg shift dramatically changes flight characteristics in a very quick manner.

Its a tribute to the 747's power that it took that long to stall out. Pilots fought it till the end, they were rolling wings level and trying to arrest their rate of descent when they impacted the terrain.

Sends chills down my spine; we practice that shit in the sim but its pretty eerie to watch the situation develop in real time.

Vmca is the airspeed required for controllability with an immediate loss of one engine at rotation and a slew of other factors(based on airframe characteristics mostly) but bottom line the vast majority of multi-engine aircraft have some safety factors built in on their rotation and climbout speeds which allows them to survive a single engine failure situation. This was a drastic shifting of the cg which is a massive grey area, and cannot be reasonably compensated for in TOLD calculations. There is a reason our loadmasters put some ridiculous factor of safety restraint on any moveable cargo: to prevent this situation.

Hels
May 1 2013, 11:06:20 AM
I wonder if they make the 747s follow a special flight profile on take off to minimize MANPADS exposure; flying on the edge of the envelope could make the aircraft much more vulnerable to departure from controlled flight during mishaps like shifting cargo or control surface malfunctions.
Those guys don't give a damn about Manpads, not like they have defensive systems on board; no cargo aircraft climb profile is going to help that. Our primary concern was never manned threats, the mountains or ground are far more likely to kill you on any given day. The required climb gradient out of Bagram isn't too heinous but from what i have been reading/hearing it was a drastic cargo CG shift (aka shit breaking loose and rolling backwards). Once it stalled out they went nose low (which airframes are designed too do to enable airspeed/control authority) but they were just didn't have enough altitude. Hence why loadmasters pro at locking shit down are important, cg shift dramatically changes flight characteristics in a very quick manner.

Its a tribute to the 747's power that it took that long to stall out. Pilots fought it till the end, they were rolling wings level and trying to arrest their rate of descent when they impacted the terrain.

Sends chills down my spine; we practice that shit in the sim but its pretty eerie to watch the situation develop in real time.

Vmca is the airspeed required for controllability with an immediate loss of one engine at rotation and a slew of other factors(based on airframe characteristics mostly) but bottom line the vast majority of multi-engine aircraft have some safety factors built in on their rotation and climbout speeds which allows them to survive a single engine failure situation. This was a drastic shifting of the cg which is a massive grey area, and cannot be reasonably compensated for in TOLD calculations. There is a reason our loadmasters put some ridiculous factor of safety restraint on any moveable cargo: to prevent this situation.

This.

"Always add more restraint." -My Oldhat Loady

I cannot think of anything more terrifying than an emergency with a load, whether on airland or airdrop. Everything else is far more gradual, fuck, even lolMANPADs and AAA are less scary than something staying in when it should be going out, or something moving when it should not be moving.

the_phage
May 1 2013, 04:18:19 PM
I might be wrong here, but is the 747 like the B-52 in that to roll the wings, the spoilers are deployed on the side that needs to drop, thus necessitating a drop in altitude? I don't recall the 747 having proper ailerons or not.

Watching that video reminded me of seeing some B-52 crashes where it rolled too far, the spoilers to effect a roll back to level became ineffective, and the aircraft just stalled and dropped out of the sky.

QuackBot
May 1 2013, 05:00:12 PM
i might be wrong here, but is the 747 like the b-52 in that to roll the wings, the spoilers are deployed on the side that needs to drop, thus necessitating a drop in altitude? i don't recall the 747 having proper ailerons or not.

watching that video reminded me of seeing some b-52 crashes where it rolled too far, the spoilers to effect a roll back to level became ineffective, and the aircraft just stalled and dropped out of the sky.
Not that much static at altitude.

Izo Azlion
May 1 2013, 08:59:31 PM
I might be wrong here, but is the 747 like the B-52 in that to roll the wings, the spoilers are deployed on the side that needs to drop, thus necessitating a drop in altitude? I don't recall the 747 having proper ailerons or not.

Watching that video reminded me of seeing some B-52 crashes where it rolled too far, the spoilers to effect a roll back to level became ineffective, and the aircraft just stalled and dropped out of the sky.

The spoilers are used generally for turning at higher speeds (as well as during a descent and upon landing), there is less distance from the centre of the aircraft (longitudinal axis) to the control surface, meaning less twisting forces along the length of the wing. If you fully deflected the ailerons at speed, they'd suffer stress. There's likely more to it than that, I don't profess to know much about commercial aircraft because I generally couldn't give a fuck about them.

Likely it doesn't necessitate a drop in altitude at all, as when you bank an aircraft into a turn it naturally want's to lower its nose slightly. This is fixed with a little more pitch up (more bank = more pitch up) past a certain point, obviously, pitching up won't help. Plus, shitloads of power. What you can't solve with power isn't worth solving.