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View Full Version : Proceduralism, Police, and Victimization



Nartek
October 15 2012, 09:57:23 AM
This was a bit of a theme in the whole offensive messaging thread; figured I'd continue the offline portion of it in a new thread.

In the past 2 weeks, I've known 3 people to get picked up/arrested by the police even though the police knew the 3 were in the clear of the accusations levied against them.

Two of them were arrested outside of a club after a female claimed one guy hit her in the face (he pushed her back by her forehead when she was trying to gouge his eyes out, in full view of the police; a move that left no visible marks, and with the obvious intention of maintaining "crazy bitch" at a distance where she was incapable of doing damage.) Said Crazy Bitch also claimed that the other guy tried to push her down the stairs as they were being escorted out of the club... A point immediately refuted by the bouncers who had done the escorting... because they'd taken them down separate stairwells, and at different times.

In the above cases, the two individuals were arrested, and held for 11 hours, then released.

In another unrelated case, a British National was arrested after shouting at an American for levying racial slurs at them. The British National had told her "To get the fuck off my driveway, bitch" after the American had illegally parked on his drive, proceeded to ignore the British National when he immediately came outside and asked her to move the first time, then proceeded to flip them off with one hand and wave with the other when they returned to their car an hour and a half later.

In that case, even though the Police knew that the offence had not happened in the manner described to them, they were powerless to do anything, and the individual was jailed, charged, and held until the holding area became full.


In both of these cases, it appears as though the concept of victimization is getting out of hand. In most cases there is no opposite recourse available, and the police themselves, by all appearances, are completely unable to "make a call" on scene, even when it is readily apparent that the accusations are baseless.

So, my question is: Is the law fucked in this regard? Have we pulled too much power from the police, and if so; should that capability be re-granted to them to be able to sift through the bullshit?

Lallante
October 15 2012, 09:59:34 AM
This was a bit of a theme in the whole offensive messaging thread; figured I'd continue the offline portion of it in a new thread.

In the past 2 weeks, I've known 3 people to get picked up/arrested by the police even though the police knew the 3 were in the clear of the accusations levied against them.

Two of them were arrested outside of a club after a female claimed one guy hit her in the face (he pushed her back by her forehead when she was trying to gouge his eyes out, in full view of the police; a move that left no visible marks, and with the obvious intention of maintaining "crazy bitch" at a distance where she was incapable of doing damage.) Said Crazy Bitch also claimed that the other guy tried to push her down the stairs as they were being escorted out of the club... A point immediately refuted by the bouncers who had done the escorting... because they'd taken them down separate stairwells, and at different times.

In the above cases, the two individuals were arrested, and held for 11 hours, then released.

In another unrelated case, a British National was arrested after shouting at an American for levying racial slurs at them. The British National had told her "To get the fuck off my driveway, bitch" after the American had illegally parked on his drive, proceeded to ignore the British National when he immediately came outside and asked her to move the first time, then proceeded to flip them off with one hand and wave with the other when they returned to their car an hour and a half later.

In that case, even though the Police knew that the offence had not happened in the manner described to them, they were powerless to do anything, and the individual was jailed, charged, and held until the holding area became full.


In both of these cases, it appears as though the concept of victimization is getting out of hand. In most cases there is no opposite recourse available, and the police themselves, by all appearances, are completely unable to "make a call" on scene, even when it is readily apparent that the accusations are baseless.

So, my question is: Is the law fucked in this regard? Have we pulled too much power from the police, and if so; should that capability be re-granted to them to be able to sift through the bullshit?

Are you in the US? That kind of stuff is much much rarer in the UK, unless the accused is drunk and/or offensive to the police.

Smuggo
October 15 2012, 10:08:46 AM
Sounds like a typical night out in Croydon.

Nartek
October 15 2012, 10:25:25 AM
Are you in the US? That kind of stuff is much much rarer in the UK, unless the accused is drunk and/or offensive to the police.

In the UK; luckily the two club individuals had consumed 2 drinks in a 4 hour period, each. So alcohol wasn't an issue. Those two were released without being charged (but they're American Military, and even though they were released without being charged, they could only be released to base authorities, who are now conducting their own investigation on it.)

If they were drunk/belligerant, I'd be posting it in General under "Look at how dumb people can be".

Lallante
October 15 2012, 06:58:06 PM
Are you in the US? That kind of stuff is much much rarer in the UK, unless the accused is drunk and/or offensive to the police.

In the UK; luckily the two club individuals had consumed 2 drinks in a 4 hour period, each. So alcohol wasn't an issue. Those two were released without being charged (but they're American Military, and even though they were released without being charged, they could only be released to base authorities, who are now conducting their own investigation on it.)

If they were drunk/belligerant, I'd be posting it in General under "Look at how dumb people can be".

I know the police take claims of violence against women very seriously, but this seems a little extreme.

Hardly a "OMG abuse of power" issue though

TheManFromDelmonte
October 15 2012, 08:26:31 PM
Hardly a "OMG abuse of power" issue though

I can see it seems minor, but I think I'd be screaming "abuse of power" if I were the one sitting in custody for 11 hours.

Sacul
October 15 2012, 08:45:21 PM
When you pay peanuts you get monkeys. In holland a standard cop earns 24k a year, before taxes.
They either flat out refuse to take action or get the pepper spray out. It seems to be the only two options over here nowadays.

Dont even begin with crowd control. Its either paradise hippie style or full out riot gear.
From the perspective of a cop i was once told of the record that they get zero tolerance pushed on them allways. Being reasonable isnt in the books. Giving tickets and abiding by the strictest interpretation of the law is what they must do.

Then again there is 0 respect for authority over here..

FourFiftyFour
October 16 2012, 12:37:42 AM
Cops in Chicago make judgement calls all the time. I was belligerently drunk and ate shit over a curb. A cop walked me home. He was a p cool guy.

Edit: this is just one anecdote but I have a lot of cousins on the force and they avoid making an arrest unless it is absolutely necessary.

Keorythe
October 16 2012, 12:52:16 AM
This was a bit of a theme in the whole offensive messaging thread; figured I'd continue the offline portion of it in a new thread.

In the past 2 weeks, I've known 3 people to get picked up/arrested by the police even though the police knew the 3 were in the clear of the accusations levied against them.

You really don't "know" anything. You get the statements. You get the accused. You take them to holding and interrogate them. Then decide if there are charges to be made or not. At best, the bouncers are the most trustworthy sources and yet you have to take what they say with a grain of salt as they may have connections with one of the accused.



In another unrelated case, a British National was arrested after shouting at an American for levying racial slurs at them. The British National had told her "To get the fuck off my driveway, bitch" after the American had illegally parked on his drive, proceeded to ignore the British National when he immediately came outside and asked her to move the first time, then proceeded to flip them off with one hand and wave with the other when they returned to their car an hour and a half later.

In that case, even though the Police knew that the offence had not happened in the manner described to them, they were powerless to do anything, and the individual was jailed, charged, and held until the holding area became full.

Again with the "know" part. Did your CCTV capture the event? Were there corroborating witnesses? Was it strictly he said/she said? Lots of missing details.

Your average citizen is a lying ass-covering individual. Even when not under suspicion, no connections to the accused/accuser, or any dog in the fight, they have a tendency to adjust their stories. Sometimes to exaggerate and sometimes to downplay for strange reasons. It's frankly mind boggling. That's why it's crucial to question people more than once and to restate the event several times while speaking with them.

I don't see how changing any police powers would do much more. The police from scenario 1 might have let everyone go, but then were they really sure that wasn't an actual assault and battery (or whatever you call it there) on a female?

For scenario 2, well they did get a conviction. If your laws are so borked up that you can get a conviction on just someone's word then it's not the police that you need to be worried about. He said/she said incidents are almost impossible to prosecute here unless you have a lot of unassociated witnesses. Most are thrown out. Maybe just maybe the person confessed or let slip a slur (I can't believe you can get convicted for slurs)?

Me
November 3 2012, 09:19:11 AM
Cops here are nice guys. Once ages ago I was ridiculously pissed and had a chunder out side some bars. Some cops found me talked with me for a bit to make sure I was alright then stuck me in a cab home.

Sure they could have stuck me in the drunk tank but that wouldn't have helped anyone.

Xiang Jiao
November 3 2012, 10:43:19 AM
The club incident sounds like they had other facts to back up their actions. You can't get arrested just because someone said that you assaulted them. A couple drunk chuckleheads tried that on my friend and I once upon a time. We were chilling at a diner when we had a verbal altercation, and they looked like they wanted to scrap. My friend got up nose to nose with one of the guys daring him to strike him, but me and one of the employees broke it up before anything started. They were asked to leave. Twenty minutes later the cops arrived to interview us because we had been accused of assaulting them. At some point, one of the drunks had sustained a bloody lip. Unless they got mugged in the parking lot, the one drunk friend punched the other in order to frame us. He could have punched himself, Fight Club style. The employees attested that there were no punches thrown, so nothing happened. They just took our information down in case they needed to follow up with us. No arrests were made.