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laz0rz
July 13 2012, 09:03:29 AM
Hello m8s, in the last period i slightly restarted to have time to play. Being alone i decided to come back to what i did when i began play eve... WH hunting. I wrote solo pvp, but i dualbox using a buzzard to find WHs and have a GTFO exit if the WH closes :) i usually try to find ratters using directional and public anomalies avoiding using probes inside the WH.

usually i fly a curse, and its fine against almost everything (i killed BS, BC without problems).. problem is when i have to face 1 target + 1-2 sleeper (sleepers switch target instantly and curse tank is not so big). Yesterday i had to leave the field engaging drake+hurricane+sleeper (main problem was the sleeper DPS in a C2). Drake was in armor but i was in armor too and without DC was too risky wait :) (u may say me to wait that the target clear all the sleepers but usually they warps out immediately for coming back with a salvage ship... so i need to tackle when the last sleeper is still alive).

The question is... which kind of ship use for this kind of gameplay? i like neuting power of the curse (2 days ago i really killed a raven in 40 seconds), but i achieve no more than 410 DPS and tank is not so bad (3 LSE 1 invu... i have an ASB fit that tank a lot more but i have to pimp the fit) but not enough for the situation i described above.

Maybe a Tengu that have 550 DPS and more tank ability (in my fit.. 2 nanos, 100mn AB...) or the last idea was a Machariel, but i dont like the idea to use big ships for my gameplay...
Any suggestions? i'd like something agile with GTFO possibility if shit comes

Thanks!

Zavior
July 13 2012, 09:10:32 AM
Cloaky prtotuteus

Malaes
July 13 2012, 09:12:01 AM
I would think a command ship would be your best choice, sleipnir can fit a good tank/dps and a utility high for a medium neut.
It's also small enough to go into c1's which a battleship can't (max jump able mass on c1 holes is only 20kk)

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 09:19:06 AM
I would think a command ship would be your best choice, sleipnir can fit a good tank/dps and a utility high for a medium neut.
It's also small enough to go into c1's which a battleship can't (max jump able mass on c1 holes is only 20kk)

Yes, could be the right idea...

@Zavior: i dont have the skills for the proteus :\

Daneel Trevize
July 13 2012, 11:03:20 AM
Disclaimer: I hunted in mostly c3s for ~18months, up until ~15months ago. I dualboxed (http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=502624) significantly (http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=596492) in that time, always armour ships/fits (except MSE bomber/TD-tanked cov-ops). I was in a small corp with a static c3, but was as able to pick off 1 or 2 things from a PvE fleet with just my chars as be pure initial tackle for 3-5 similar players to bring their ships to & to take stand-up fights with.

The cloaky proteus possibly is not the right choice if that's your solo/dualboxed combo (the cov ops). The proteus is awesome in a duo but alone it cannot break all C3 anom runners tanks, perhaps not some C2 ones now either since the neut change and I believe passive drakes only became more common. It is the highest dps cloaky t3, so there's no direct superior ship in this regard. It should work fine in C1s and most C2s. For C3s you used to be able to also gamble that the sleepers wouldn't switch, so jump them right when they're facing the toughest spawn so long as there wasn't the pointing frigate. Then you either break them with the combined dps, or GTFO if being shot, because they're only PvE fit, right?

The Sleipnir and Mach are beastly for this, though I never tried them. 2 of the best users were
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9568103
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9327273 / http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10845242
Genepool rolled with 'gutted' in a Proteus, Darth with 'Akana Kira' in an Arazu. Yes those fits are expensive and unusual (not to mention the clones since those podmails aren't accurate), but more key is the 2nd character is contributing far more than a cov-ops. A heavier tackler that can stick around means either plenty more dps applied in the case of the t3 (perhaps a neuting legion would work but we never used them for this even before the sleeper neut change), or range control with a recon. Yes the curse is also awesome at killing active tanked things (also try the ashimmu, perfection vs tengus), but a couple of regular neuts is/was enough, while damping things down can mean the recon and/or a bomber buddy are untouchable except by sleepers. A rapier can web & point 2 targets at once, and this also lets you go without a web on your main gank ship (some proteus corpmates went with a sebo, others a cap injector, or still kept the web for independence in more stand-up combat/true solo).

Bombers are brilliant in w-space, just forget the bomb launcher. You need an MSE and to warp when you get locked by anything, but their dps is great (that explosion reduction bonus is key, also the sheer volley to get past peak recharges) and you can keep them alive thanks to their range. The no delay locking after decloak can also make them good tacklers, as long as you can swap that over to the main dps ship and transition the bomber to a safe range (either using ewar or a warp out). They're a bit trickly to manage both the tackle & dps role in the 1 fit though. Lastly you must use the correct racial torpedo, I suggest purifier for EM + good slot layout.

As for GTFO, this is/was the world of point blank and armour tanks, and hole spawn mechanics. You're the hunter, apart from jumping into camped holes which was very rare and you'd send the cheaper ship first, you are watching the enemy's system & POSs, you know where they're coming from and who they have online via killboard intel, you can take a moment to watch them in their site to ensure they are fitted to tank & with the right numbers & types of weapons. Ways to reduce the chance of getting pinned when committing to the gank would be: falcon alt, lame; mwd/100mn AB so as to outpace the common 10mn AB fits; the previous in conjuntion with a rapier/arazu to ease breaking tackle range, or a curse to neut points off. Mostly though the proteus and loki want to be at point blank for max dps, and you're expecting some shield ships to take a while to push down past peak recharge. Get balls deep and just ensure sometimes you're running anoms for nice isk.
For the sleip sitting 1 hole back, you can cloak. For the Mach and Curse, you have speed/long neuts to free yourself. But mostly you should be in a safe system that you've already scouted/cleared, and if you're attacked on a hole, jump and then try pull range & shake tacklers, unless of course you think they're not coming from behind but pushing you into a decloaking gang.

My fav combos were: proteus + curse/ashimmu, arazu + purifier, proteus + rapier. The cov-ops is a deadly ship but mostly there was no need for bonused combat probes to catch anom runners, and for getting about w-space, if you know the tricks to sorting sig sizes with 1 wide probe and what sigs to look for per jnumber (http://www.wormnav.com/), you can get about with player probing skill + unbonused probes. That said, you would be giving up catching miners/gas huffers unless you can get into their system ahead of time and BM the anoms.

As for CSs, I never did try the Astarte much, but it did great dps & had a stupid tank vs tengus/drakes, just it's a brick and would struggle under additional sleeper aggro without links. I don't think it got buffed much in Crucible. It's better than a proteus for very small brawls/cheaper anom ganks, but just not cloaky or tanky enough if actually trying to be killed by several pvpers. I think the Abso's similar/trades a little dps for more tank.

Another personal point: I never lost a single T3, the corp hardly lost any, and only towards the end did we even have falcon pilots occasionally with us. Killing & not being killed was 90% about the intel rather than the fit. Actually also the curse/rapier are boss, and crazy independant guardian fits. Living with a static c3 that you can cycle in 4 mins with 2 chars, and the option of a POS filled with a wide selection of ships + the SP to fly them (usually lvl4 mind) meant you could pick the hard counter to what the 1 cloaky scout/tackler was reporting, and sometimes park the shiniest ship. I appreciate that this is hard to replicate if you're living from k-space/oh god a nomadic orca.

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 02:14:31 PM
Thanks Daniel for the long reply!
lot of important ideas in your post! i use cov-ops because i dont like to see a killmail with 2 pilots also if im alone to play :) im a "romantic" player that want to kill 1 vs more... ok im noob so atm i cannot destroy pirates camp alone, so i enjoy in wh... :) also my computer is not so powerful to fully support 2 clients, usually i minimize the cov-ops client and forget him until i finish the fight.

i know that most people i killed or i will kill are people that also dont check d-scan for probes and competent people... i usually enter from high-sec so i may "park" my main safely on the high-sec system or log-off without aggro. Problem with mach is the mass (as said early the mach cannot enter C1) so i think i will give a try to a sleip before pimping my curse ;)

Daneel Trevize
July 13 2012, 02:40:25 PM
If you're attacking in systems with a static highsec, can can keep your cov ops safe, and have an mwd or AB + cov ops cloak on your combat ship, you can go without the probe launcher which is nice, gaining either more dps or a neut. The prop mod need being in case they/someone bubbles/HICs the hole.
A pilgrim has probably also crossed your mind, but I think you might have found they're just not quite good enough without recon 5 + some pimpage, and also commit far more than a curse needs to. That said, they can decloak in tackle range, even try for a bump while waiting out decloak delay, I'm surprised people aren't avading you if you're just warping to their anom in a non-cloaky ship and catching them. Really the main problem with a pilgrim is that it isn't great against missile ships (especially proper armour & TDs fit), though I don't know how many of them you've encountered, and if your curse tanks them better than a 10mn AB recon would.
Of course, people are in theory hard to tackle even with cov ops cloaked ships (they should be aligned, checking for new sigs, etc), yet in practice, 100bil isk to my own hand reminds me otherwise.

You can always start cheap for the Sleipnir idea, a Cyclone with traditional injector and shield booster can do well against pve ships, and fit a neut or 2 to push them past stable recharge. Then again so does a buffer cane. If you can use the cov ops to get standard drugs about highsec to your main once it's set up ready to go, that's an extra way to boost any active tanked ship without paying for T2 hulls/shiny modules/implants/running ganglinks. Links are stupidly good though, giving you far more tank and also trading some for dps on armour ships (some shield ships too via rigs). But while training T3s is brilliant bang for your SP buck for newer players, they aren't cheap, and leadership skills alone takes months to make link fits work.
Genepool had a HG crystal set afaik, be sure you factor in how strong that was before going all out for a specific ship. Don't forget Sisi can help you test out new things before you spend isk or even SP towards them on TQ only to find you don't enjoy them. Just... know what you're testing against. Shoot your alt or rats rather than most of the wierd crap in the main testing systems.

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 03:48:11 PM
I discarded the pilgrim because i must commit too much to the fight without range bonus on neuts. Usually i use the alt to probe WH, enter if no wrecks, drones and ships on system, check all the system (where POS are, which anoms are active, hidden plex), check dotlan to understand when they farmed last time... ok assuming there is some kind of activity i use the cov-ops as warp point for the main. while the main warps i warp the alt in a safespot. Usually i check if they are aligned or not while they kill sleepers, usually 90% orbit a wreck.

Keeping targets with attention is possible to pimp fits and pods but is always a risk :) Things i hate are also situations where i killed a retriever and he came back in megatrhon... i was killing the mega (in curse), but when i was in deep armor 2 myrmi landed and warriors were a pain in the ass and i had to leave the field :((( with other ship im sure i could killed all them... because drones took too much time to kill the mega :((((

Daneel Trevize
July 13 2012, 04:22:32 PM
Well getting a good fight and also saving your day-to-day combat ship is nice even if you don't get a mail or public evidence it happened. Solo w-space is going to be about you enjoying what you're doing, not a way to have top stats, though you may be an exceptionally good pilot regardless. Or softened by ganking too many carebears ;)

This leads back to 2 points, using your alt as a tackler/extra dps/link ship, and actually being solo.
Depending on what the alt's training for (if anything on that char), give the recon/bomber a go. If only for a week/1 loss, just to see how it gives you more options and targets.
The second thing is having corpmates or other trusted & trusting friends. We occasionally had a couple of people in corp who wouldn't be with the rest of us, but might log off in a juicy system and keep us updated if/when they suspect there'd be a PvE op to crash as well as the current routes to k-space. Rarely this would result in us heading across empire to help catch a fleet, usually though the alone guy would nab a hauler/miner/single anom pilot and then the enemy would expect his corpmates were directly connected and not be up for trying to fight/bait him as though he were solo with no corp ticker.
There have also been several channels over the years, such as 'wormhole plunderers', where peoples would keep an eye for a call to help take down a cap ship, but that really depended on people developing a reputation, which somewhat conflicts with expecting others to come help you with most major fights (w-space people being somewhat fiercely independant and competitive).

Your attitude sounds like you'd be a real asset to like-minded players, though it naturally conflicts with your approach. If you get disheartened by what you find you're able to try engage when pinning all your hopes on a single setup & use of your SP, do try a small PvP focused w-space corp. Having a POS + good static and/or even just a couple of corpmates to hand can really help for pvp and pve. 'Tis an MMO after all ;)
Actually a couple of ex-corpmates have actually stuck around after coming back most recently and are retrying w-space, I can pass on their details if you'd like, just send an eve-mail.

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 06:18:38 PM
Heheheheh today on chat, one my old friend said to me the same... to come to him living in a WH :))) but atm RL stress (ok less than early, but i cannot hope too much to have a lot of time for eve). i know eve is MMO but when your wife call u every 2 minutes, you recieve work callings, babies... u may imagine is difficult cohoperate too much with other people. Btw, im in a small corp of carebear atm, but they are kind and funny and sometimes i try to take someone with me in WH... also they are very relaxed and i have not the stress to live in 0.0, dont log for 1 week and find my corp moved to other area leaving me alone with all my assets :)) so thanks for the offer :)

Also for this my idea was to find an "ideal" ship, for keeping maximum 1 carrier of fitted ships for easy moving around eve, without have the problem to leave lot of ships everywhere...

My alt atm only may use cov-ops/falcon/bonitengu(soon), but i dont want to show falcons on killmails :)) i should skill for a rapier yes..., but i've planned all for the link bonuses... or yes maybe a bomber that is faster to skill also with meta4 torpedoes....

Daneel Trevize
July 13 2012, 07:47:59 PM
Bomber is fine with meta4 torps, cov ops 5 is a great skill to max for anyone living in w-space, could be the first T2 ship skill I trained any char to 5 in, no regrets.

I don't think there is a sub-BS that's bringing more dps & tank to a gank as well as some neuts than a CS, the sleip should do you very nicely. Claymore ain't bad too, with missiles/w-space specific use of the highs, but you don't want to be needing more tank over more dps. I don't rate the cloaky tengu very highly, but then I can't fly the things and am simply sick of seeing them die or warp/run away. The loki is only comparable to the proteus at point blank/if you really want to choose damage type, but the bonused web is arguably far better than the bonused scram. Of course once you're in a fleet, people will love the bonused long point on a proteus, but that's probably not actually of use to yourself. Cloaky legion is only good as a very heavy tackler, even the pilgrim is a better gank boat. Again the Ashimmu is very nice in situations it can handle, but quickly tips to a point where you're not getting out, while the shield curse probably would despite the lack of hard tackle.
Talking of pirate cruisers, have you looked at the Vigilant/Gila? Or perhaps the Ishtar?

Gypsio
July 13 2012, 08:09:47 PM
I've rolled with Proteus and BS for the last 2.5 years. BS has ranged from Fleet Typhoon to Rattlesnake, Dominix, Navy Scorp or just a basic Raven. I always liked a heavy neut on the BS to break Tengu tanks, RR to rep the Proteus, sentry drones to deal with ohgoditsafalcon and an active tank.

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 08:22:39 PM
YEs i definitely will try CS skilling for bomber in case of need of extra DPS. Vigilant or Gila i havent tried, need to view some fit i saved on EFT from here...
i hope to come back to write something good :)))

thanks again daniel ;)

Daneel Trevize
July 13 2012, 08:40:09 PM
Gypsio, I can't believe you're still going at it out there, keep fighting the good fight! :D

Ouch, those losses (http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=9050&view=losses&m=07&y=2012) last week.

Also, torps dps (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7160531)? :p

Laz0rs, I will say: don't underestimate the power of a plated armour fit with a small repper to regen after the fight, just like shields do. See Gypsio/Ace's proteus for an example.

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 09:35:21 PM
Yes really good ideas guys, thanks! what i dont like in these proteus is the fact that i cannot disengage easily... only for this i prefer kiting ships. But brawling is funny too!

Daneel Trevize
July 13 2012, 09:39:59 PM
The short answer is, go through them. Get good at intel, and you'll only be engaging what you want to be. Not that it won't sometimes be a bit more than expected, and very close calls, but basically brawl them the fuck down, scaring them off is a valid tactic. This can also be where a corp ticker with fearsome stats comes in handy.

As an actual useful tip, remember you can drop point on someone and they may try to warp out, if there's just a few of them and you'd rather the one ship came back in a minute while you can deal with the rest sticking around. Of course they may not think to warp, or want to go down to deliver sufficient dps to kill you, or not come back after to die to you, or bring ECM/RR, but it's something some people don't seem to think of when faced with overwhelming odds and a heavily tackled primary. Many people pvping will really actually want to save their ship or stats, and warp when they can even if it's not tactically best for their mates.

laz0rz
July 13 2012, 10:05:09 PM
I agree with u, brawling in WH should be less risky than brawling at a gate with the right intel work did before the fight... surely i have to try... btw i have to skill a proteus :) and take a look at a very cool vigilant fit that may brawl enough well...

TimNeilson
July 14 2012, 12:02:12 AM
Vigilants are great ship, do amazing amounts of dps, and the 90% webs are super-great to have, but they're a little bit squishy just because they don't get t2 resists, so you probably want to keepthat in mind if you're going to fly one.

Gypsio
July 14 2012, 10:31:50 AM
Gypsio, I can't believe you're still going at it out there, keep fighting the good fight! :D

Ouch, those losses (http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=9050&view=losses&m=07&y=2012) last week.

Also, torps dps (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7160531)? :p

Laz0rs, I will say: don't underestimate the power of a plated armour fit with a small repper to regen after the fight, just like shields do. See Gypsio/Ace's proteus for an example.

I'm throwing it in soon, moving out to shoot shinier ships in higher WHs with other people...

Last week was a mess. I found an offline POS two systems away and started looting it. As the Mastodon was in warp to a WH to jump back, the WH fired and a Devoter jumped through and bubbled the Proteus, making the Mastodon land right in the bubble. A Devoter is never alone, so I knew there'd be a gang on the other side. I started shooting the Devoter to force the gang to jump through, figuring that would give the Mastodon stuffed with POS loot a chance to GTFO via WH timers. They jumped, so I jumped both Mastodon and Proteus through, and they all followed. I then jumped the Mastodon back through, and MWDed the Proteus off the WH and cloaked it. Then I managed to get the Mastodon to warp off and cloak up, and smiling slightly, switched back to the cloaked Proteus... to find myself distinctly uncloaked, tackled and in the process of getting ganked and podded.

This left the Mastodon in an awkward situation - 2j from home with a hostile gang in the way. Ace Fire was back in highsec in a new clone, and I didn't have a knownsec entrance to my system... So I batphoned KICK and logged off Gypsio after checking my aggro timer to log in my emergency prober alt to check the lowsec static. I logged Gypsio back in to find him in the same clone station as Ace Fire, having misread the aggro timer like a moran...

Thirty minutes later I was back in system, baiting their gang in a Vindicator. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13952859. They had their Devoter, another Proteus and two Guardians as well, one of whom ejected. Our Curse crippled them.

Fleet Phoon - I never had a problem with torp DPS there, even with only four launchers on it. I did use Crash a lot though, which meant torps were fine against BS and Drakes, and active T3s just died to the heavy neut. This was nomadic WH travelling - I needed to be able to cloak up and to probe independently when WHs collapsed. Certainly the cloak, RR, neut and probe launcher were more valuable than another torp launcher.

Re. the Proteus SAR. When soloing/duoing in WHs, at least 50% of your targets will be Drakes and Tengus firing kinetic damage. The Proteus there has a 94.4% kinetic armour resist. With that, even a SAR gives a good local tank.

GV
July 14 2012, 01:16:14 PM
I know you said you don't like the Proteus overall, but since you can obviously fly one and were willing to give it a shot, try using the Gravitational Capacitor subsystem for the extra mid-slot it gives you. Pop a cap booster on there for some protection against neuts, then slap a medium neut of your own in your utility high slot to help break active-tanked targets. Since you now don't have a probe launcher, use the tackle-range subsystem instead of the probing one (and make sure you bookmark your entrances/exits religiously). The neut coupled with extra scram range should help you with GTFO options. A shiny web doesn't hurt either. Since you are hole-diving from hi or low sec systems you may be able to go with a buffer tank instead of an active one and just dock and rep after a fight. Something like this:

[Proteus, WH Buffer]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Shadow Serpentis Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir


Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x2
Hornet EC-300 x6
Warrior II x7


For extra GTFO capability, get some Virtues in your probing alt and use a Falcon instead of a covops.


*Edit* I conflated Gypsio and the OP. Oops.

laz0rz
July 14 2012, 01:53:58 PM
i was thinking something about this: my corpmate used to kill ppl in 0.0 i swapped the nullifier for gain 1 low slot.

[Proteus, Wrongstuff's Proteus copy 1]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Republic Fleet Warp Scrambler
Caldari Navy Stasis Webifier

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

near 700 DPS, 17000 armor HP... dunno... could be a start...

DocBlood
July 18 2012, 01:14:38 AM
This thread makes me nostalgic for wh plunderers, no one is ever in the channel anymore :(

Baarhyn
July 18 2012, 07:04:08 AM
it's a remanant of yonder days, I used to lurk in that channel waiting for that call to arm, even when I was living myself in a wormhole I was awaiting the CALL OF DUTY and form up in a kitchen sink fleet to go down some bads.

old times old times.

Rudolf Miller
July 18 2012, 11:25:52 AM
Shame that channel died off.... it was quite awesome to watch.

Wrack
July 21 2012, 06:42:27 PM
My corp is basically that channel.