Cap Batteries

[Blastil]

Has anyone playtested the new cap batteries on TQ? Where do these fit in with PVP? Theories are fine, but I wanted to know if anyone has been using them in PVP since the changes.

[Suleiman Shouaa]

IMO, the neut reflection thing is pretty gimmicky and isn't strong enough (nor should it be) the primary reason to fit one of these on a ship - it simply serves as a nice "perk" to have when you already use them (ala Lachesis, Armor Rapiers etc.).

As for a suggestion for Cap Batteries, the concept is good, but the execution leaves alot to be desired. For them to really become viable, fittings need to be reduced significantly to become similar to those of capacitor boosters, rather than leaps and bounds above. Reduce the gimmicky capacitor "reflection" entirely.

[Daneel Trevize]

TL; DR: They're shit. I did a post for the Hype that I was in 2 minds about reformatting into a table/graph of with & without, to then possibly put on eve-o to show CCP how bad they are at making things.
AFAIK the only battery worth ever considering is the Large, and then that's only good as an 'oversized' mod on 1 1xMAR legion fit to make it stable, and otherwise still a waste unless you like perma-mwding Sleipnirs/something with the ASBs on Claymores/Ferox. Basically a small injector or an LSE is always going to be better.


Neuts aren't a problem that a 12.5% reflection will solve.
A Hyperion with an meta4 MWD fitted has 7.3K GJ of cap. This will mostly be full after undocking/warping/jumping into a camp. 1mwd cycle removes. 540GJ or ~7%.
An LCB would give it 700 GJ more, once. Natural peak regen is barely affected. The reflected amount is related to the neut/nos used rather than your own cap total AFAIK, ships will fit such modules as suited to their hull size (heavy-neut-Curse aside), or smaller. (You can't leverage a BS cap against smaller ships without using neuts yourself).

A heavy neut is 600 GJ every 24seconds at an activation cost of 500GJ.
70 GJ reflected is 1% of a similar BS's capacitor. It would take over 7 cycles to clock up 1 activation cost of said heavy neut against the attacker's cap, that's over 3 minutes of heavy neuting before it effectively removes 1 neut cycle from the enemy's capacitor's potential cycle limit count. Not factoring in regen. Completely hoping they're not injected. Something with multiple heavy neuts like a Tempest/Typhoon/Neut Domi will be injected, so reducing their time taken to clock up 7 total cycles cap usage is negated for by the cost to them of something like 1 injected 800 charge across the whole duration, while still taking at least 1.5-2minutes (accounting for running multiple neuts) before that cost is needed to be paid.
Even a Mega or Geddon with 1 heavy neut should be injected too and give no fucks being able to perma-run all modules but any propmod, and even then they can almost-perma/fully effectively enough for a fight's repositioning needs.

Considering the dual neuting cane:
A medium neut is 180 GJ every 12s for 150 GJ activation. 720 GJ nuked in the same duration as a single heavy neut.
A cane has 2.85k GJ with meta4 mwd. Assume half's gone to warping + mwding. 22.5 reflected each neut, 45 (1.6% of our new cap pseudo-total) every 12s, meaning ~32 full double cycles before your reflections remove the rest of the cap. That's over 6 minutes that you're holding a cane/he's not mwding anyway/he has no other use for that cap except a tackle module & DC2. Meanwhile he removed ~11k GJ in that time, aka all your cap even with several LCBs and no MWD fitted.

Edit: in all this, I forgot to point out that for you, the reflection saves you 90GJ of that 720 hit, per 24seconds. Still only ~1.3% of your fit's cap, not counting for your own regen.

All T2 cap boosters cycle in 12s. Reload is 10s IIRC.
A single 800 cap booster charge gives 800 GJ. A medium injector fits easier than an LCB.
Even a pre-loaded medium will give you more cap instantly than the LCB ever would, and at the same rate as a heavy neut hitting you it can give you a net gain of 200 GJ (80GJ net against a cane). The LCB is already net -20 (actually about 0 accounting for reflection) after the start of the second cycle of the cane's neuts (12seconds in), aka no fucking use. That injected cap is also neut & warp-immune, you can have your cap abused however you like (creating a short-warp to a gate you have no tactical for, being raped by neuts, whatever) and then push buttan, receive bacon when you want.

More than 1 neuting ship on you will quickly reduce your single capacitor far faster than any reflected neuting will take effect. Under high neuting pressure, your cap buffer and regen stats are meaningless, it is only how often you can inject sufficient cap to cycle modules, and how well you can time said cycles to use the cap before it's all removed again. LCB does dick all here, any injector would be better, even a small.
Or not MWDing one extra cycle, or not having an MWD fitted -> the case for an AB on an already-slow-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things BS with scram & web that's happy in tackle range and might really want to slowboat back to a gate. Blaster optimal even increased by Void L is only ~5km, leaving ~50% of tackle range where you want to get closer, not to mention also pull range/control transversal vs a HAC/HIC/T3.

IMHO the 'hybrid' plate + rep tank only really works with links and/or implants. Without, the amount of EHP you've traded from a simple double plate triple trimark pure buffer fit is too large and your absolute rep value too low to make up for it. 500 dps tank is 30k EHP per minute, but you must run the heated repper constantly to achieve this. Buffer with passive hardeners is also neut-immune as well as alpha-immune/badly timed cap injector reload immune. And doesn't draw cap from your guns & tackle & prop mod.

[Sponk]

1. Ditch reflection
2. Make 50% of the cap battery immune to neut and nos. This is one cycle of a XLSB for a large cap battery - not a huge amount, but means that you always get two boosts from a 800 cap charge. Also means that smaller batteries will always be enough to power hardeners.

(edit: I'm willing to go lower than 50% if it turns out I'm terrible at game balance)

[Cue1*]

1. Ditch reflection
2. Make 50% of the cap battery immune to neut and nos. This is one cycle of a XLSB for a large cap battery - not a huge amount, but means that you always get two boosts from a 800 cap charge. Also means that smaller batteries will always be enough to power hardeners.

(edit: I'm willing to go lower than 50% if it turns out I'm terrible at game balance)

TBH, I don't understand why it wasn't like this at first. :-/

[Daneel Trevize]

Because CCP can't balance for shit.
Also maybe because neuting out tacklers?

[Vortex]

Even if they worked as a protected cap amount system, most ships wouldn't be able to spare the medslot for one, let alone their crazy CPU cost. The reflection amount is far too small to affect anything, so really nothing changed with its addition to the game.

[filingo]

i am a large capactior battery IRL

[Sponk]

i am a large capactior battery IRL

You're resistant to noses?

[filingo]

i am a large capactior battery IRL

You're resistant to noses?

there was some poor sod from SHC who applied to join our corp a couple of years ago who had large capacitor batteries fit on EVERYTHING

i cant remeber who it was but every loss mail seemed to feature an improbably shoved in cap battery

[Amantus]

i am a large capactior battery IRL




i am a large capactior battery IRL

You're resistant to noses?

there was some poor sod from SHC who applied to join our corp a couple of years ago who had large capacitor batteries fit on EVERYTHING

i cant remeber who it was but every loss mail seemed to feature an improbably shoved in cap battery

its because they own

[ry ry]

of marginal interest, small cap batteries apply their neut resistance to larger ships.

Although there is always something more useful to put in your mids if you have a spare slot, and they use more cpu than Crysis so it's not even a fitting compromise.

[Glyken Touchon]

for comedy, does fitting multiple batteries increase the reflection amount?

[TimNeilson]

It does, but stacking penalties.

[LordsServant]

I think the point here is that it makes the neuts hurt the person neuting just as much as it hurts you, if not more in some cases. Yes, they may be fit to neut, but without injection assuming similar cap sizes of both parties, they'll cap themselves out far faster than they'll cap you out.

It changes the dynamics of neuts quite a bit; whether fits and fights can exploit that is another matter to be (fore)seen.

EDIT: Carry several spare in ur carrier in WH space, when hostiles bring in bhaalgorns, refit to all capacitor batteries, watch them neut themselves out and therefore put pressure on their triage to keep them capped up; lol in the meantime? =D

[Daneel Trevize]

Going to have to say: numbers or STFU. As per above, I crunched them for the cap-hungry dual rep mwd Hype and :welp:.
In theory it might be useful, in practice it is a terribly weak reflection, the vast majority of neuting is still happening to you, and that's after the piss poor basic absolute cap addition and fitting requirements (Heavy Cap injector capital ship fits ftw, still probably a better use of the midslots).

[LordsServant]

Going to have to say: numbers or STFU. As per above, I crunched them for the cap-hungry dual rep mwd Hype and :welp:.
In theory it might be useful, in practice it is a terribly weak reflection, the vast majority of neuting is still happening to you, and that's after the piss poor basic absolute cap addition and fitting requirements (Heavy Cap injector capital ship fits ftw, still probably a better use of the midslots).

EFT doesn't have any way that I can see of number crunching this for me, and I don't really know enough about stacking effects beyond "never fit more than 3 or its just bad 99% of the time" to crunch them myself(altho have we confirmed that they are stacking nerfed?).

I would definitely agree that it's not going to change things amazingly and while I wouldn't go fitting them on tons of ships I didn't fit them on before, I could see using them in the triage vs bhaalgorn case.

Doing rough numbers (don't laugh at me being ~bad~ plse)....

They reflect 12.5%.

That's 131.25 / cap battery fit (assuming no stacking penalty) reflected assuming a bhaalgorn with t2 neuts is neuting u.

If you can fit 4 on an archon while getting neuted by a bhaalgorn, ur looking at 525/neut, or with stacking nerfs...~250 maybe(I have no idea tbh, assume 50% effect total).

250 x 7 = 1750 cap neuted per cycle + the (318 x 7=2,226) = 3976 cap being neuted per cycle off of the NEUTING ship (admittedly they're hitting the hostile ship for (7 x 1050=7,350)), but considering the bhaalgorn only has 7781 cap before augmentations etc etc, it's popping 1/2 of it's cap instead of 1/3 of it's cap per neut cycle, (and this is with a single egress port maximizer standard fit).

This scales very well and is the equivalent of ~2.5 standard heavy neuts extra on every bhaalgorn on field that's neuting the 4x cap battery capital. I'm not sure of the specifics, but it could be p. handy and might help put cap pressure on hostile carriers as there's that much extra cap that needs to be replaced per neut cycle on the bhaalgorns.

[Cue1*]

Going to have to say: numbers or STFU. As per above, I crunched them for the cap-hungry dual rep mwd Hype and :welp:.
In theory it might be useful, in practice it is a terribly weak reflection, the vast majority of neuting is still happening to you, and that's after the piss poor basic absolute cap addition and fitting requirements (Heavy Cap injector capital ship fits ftw, still probably a better use of the midslots).

EFT doesn't have any way that I can see of number crunching this for me, and I don't really know enough about stacking effects beyond "never fit more than 3 or its just bad 99% of the time" to crunch them myself(altho have we confirmed that they are stacking nerfed?).

I would definitely agree that it's not going to change things amazingly and while I wouldn't go fitting them on tons of ships I didn't fit them on before, I could see using them in the triage vs bhaalgorn case.

Doing rough numbers (don't laugh at me being ~bad~ plse)....

They reflect 12.5%.

That's 131.25 / cap battery fit (assuming no stacking penalty) reflected assuming a bhaalgorn with t2 neuts is neuting u.

If you can fit 4 on an archon while getting neuted by a bhaalgorn, ur looking at 525/neut, or with stacking nerfs...~250 maybe(I have no idea tbh, assume 50% effect total).

250 x 7 = 1750 cap neuted per cycle + the (318 x 7=2,226) = 3976 cap being neuted per cycle off of the NEUTING ship (admittedly they're hitting the hostile ship for (7 x 1050=7,350)), but considering the bhaalgorn only has 7781 cap before augmentations etc etc, it's popping 1/2 of it's cap instead of 1/3 of it's cap per neut cycle, (and this is with a single egress port maximizer standard fit).

This scales very well and is the equivalent of ~2.5 standard heavy neuts extra on every bhaalgorn on field that's neuting the 4x cap battery capital. I'm not sure of the specifics, but it could be p. handy and might help put cap pressure on hostile carriers as there's that much extra cap that needs to be replaced per neut cycle on the bhaalgorns.

Looks to be most :psyduck: stuff. Yes, it's got that effect, but it's also a loss of cap regen on the carrier. Those batteries really hurt, and are ridiculously hard to fit. On an Archon, you cut the outgoing reps down to only stable running one at 43%. While being neuted by one Bhaal, you've got 7 minutes of self rep on one repper, as compared to the still stable 45% running one repper if you've just got cap rechargers

[xin jiang]

Does this mean my dream of invincible active tanks will never come true?

[Varcaus]

Does this mean my dream of invincible active tanks will never come true?

Dual xlasb + crystals + mind linked tengu. Tank can't be neuted alpha/insane dps can and will kill you sure but around 10k dps tank is more than fine if you fight on stations and gates (admittedly kinda gay but v0v)

[Daneel Trevize]

Does this mean my dream of invincible active tanks will never come true?

Dual xlasb + crystals + mind linked tengu. Tank can't be neuted alpha/insane dps can and will kill you sure but around 10k dps tank is more than fine if you fight on stations and gates (admittedly kinda gay but v0v)Dies to alpha far too easily. At least armour BS tanks have 70-150+k EHP in resisted tank alone.
Actually, a no-active resists tengu possibly can't even rep 10k without overtanking, aka not actually repping that much.

[Varcaus]

Does this mean my dream of invincible active tanks will never come true?

Dual xlasb + crystals + mind linked tengu. Tank can't be neuted alpha/insane dps can and will kill you sure but around 10k dps tank is more than fine if you fight on stations and gates (admittedly kinda gay but v0v)Dies to alpha far too easily. At least armour BS tanks have 70-150+k EHP in resisted tank alone.
Actually, a no-active resists tengu possibly can't even rep 10k without overtanking, aka not actually repping that much.
That's why you fight on stations/gates you can gtfo but meh. The 10k was dps tanked btw

[Daneel Trevize]

I know, a NMega/Hype/lolKronos will peak at 7k+dps tank themselves, but so much more buffer, especially the NMega. The tengu will be shitting bricks, also dies v quickly if dps is past tank rate.

[Varcaus]

I know, a NMega/Hype/lolKronos will peak at 7k+dps tank themselves, but so much more buffer, especially the NMega. The tengu will be shitting bricks, also dies v quickly if dps is past tank rate.
Well can't have everything.