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View Full Version : TMA The mechanics of Ancillary Shield Boosters



Rudolf Miller
May 25 2012, 06:42:47 PM
See title. I know they're steroid injected shield boosters, and they use cap charges. The rest.. idk. Help with the details??

halbarad
May 25 2012, 07:57:00 PM
60s reload but can run on normal cap. Always use the smallest booster charge you can fit to get the most out of it.

Daneel Trevize
May 25 2012, 08:58:10 PM
Lol-cap-independant shield boosting for as many charges as you can cram into it, then omg cap usage aka rape to rep some more, and if you stop it or it can't cycle again, you DIAF because the reload is 60seconds doing nothing but blinking at you.
Unless you can manage to buffer + active shield tank or something (possibly Ferox, Rokh)

xanral
May 25 2012, 09:34:50 PM
As the description can be a little confusing, you can stop the booster while having charges inside and it will not auto-reload. Only if its empty will it auto-reload when stopped.

You cannot boost while in warp.

As said before use the smallest booster size, as it eats 1 booster a cycle regardless of size.

Max constant boost time before running out of boosters in the shield booster:
X-L: 52 seconds (40 seconds with non-navy)
L: 52 seconds (40 seconds with non-navy)
M: 30 seconds (no navy 50s)
S: 20 seconds (no navy 25s)

Daneel Trevize
May 25 2012, 10:00:02 PM
Now if someone could just confirm the details around interaction with ganglinks, crystals and blue pills/drugs (wonder if other drugs and things like CPRs actually decrease boost amount?).

prometheus
May 26 2012, 03:20:47 AM
Now if someone could just confirm the details around interaction with ganglinks, crystals and blue pills/drugs (wonder if other drugs and things like CPRs actually decrease boost amount?).
works with everything except blue pills.

Mfume
May 26 2012, 08:36:34 PM
works with everything except blue pills.

Working as intended?

prometheus
May 26 2012, 10:38:21 PM
works with everything except blue pills.

Working as intended?

not sure, you'd think links would be the neglected thing if that were the case.
but theyre still a bit buggy.

not showing on mails correctly, and dont show in the fitting window as shield boosters

Cavalira
May 27 2012, 01:32:08 PM
If you rig the ship so shielboosters take less cap... would this affect the ancil?

Sponk
May 28 2012, 12:14:52 AM
It should, but tbh if your ASB is using cap, its performance is pretty terrible anyway.

Smuggo
May 28 2012, 10:50:10 AM
From what I've seen, the ancillary shield booster is not working with blue pill and also not working with rigs that affect boosters, or at least it doesn't work with the cycle time rig.

On the links front, I'd argue that only shield resist are really beneficial to it. Improving cap use is only meaningful when it has no booster in it and then its going to be offering extremely sub-par performance. Reducing cycle time is more helpful but it just means you'll be faced with that 60s reload time that bit sooner...

Also, I didn't realise quite how short the running time is on a fully fuelled booster. At less than a minute on the large and x-large, even running two staggered boosters you'll have an 8 second downtime on the reloads, even worse for frigs. So yeah, buffer ships with a backup active tank seems to be what this is most useful for, as opposed to buffing existing active tank setups. Fair enough I suppose at Sleipnirs with a 4,000 dps tank would a be a bit excessive I guess.

Rudolf Miller
May 28 2012, 02:24:32 PM
I suppose at Sleipnirs with a 4,000 dps tank would a be a bit excessive I guess.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ScHH8BGvB2c/T378r8YbSDI/AAAAAAAABXE/IF-K2gCucWE/s1600/mother+of+god+meme.JPG

Varcaus
May 28 2012, 02:47:08 PM
I suppose at Sleipnirs with a 4,000 dps tank would a be a bit excessive I guess.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ScHH8BGvB2c/T378r8YbSDI/AAAAAAAABXE/IF-K2gCucWE/s1600/mother+of+god+meme.JPG

Relax claymores can get a 10K burst tank

Daneel Trevize
May 28 2012, 03:26:53 PM
Tengus can do 10k dps omni tank cap stable (before drugs or heat). I'd know, we killed 2 of them from the same corp across several days. Gotta love w-space random connections.

[Tengu, Pimped 1]

Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating I
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Gist A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith B-Type EM Ward Field

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix


Crystal Alpha
Crystal Beta
Crystal Gamma
Crystal Delta
Crystal Epsilon
Crystal Omega

Smuggo
May 28 2012, 03:32:55 PM
Tengus can do 10k dps omni tank cap stable (before drugs or heat). I'd know, we killed 2 of them from the same corp across several days. Gotta love w-space random connections.

SNIP


I think you missed the point Daneel as this is not a PvP setup.

Daneel Trevize
May 28 2012, 03:42:14 PM
Ok my point was such tank numbers are hardly new. T2 fit Hyperion (yes T1 rigs) can do 4.5k dps pvp burst tank, 3.7+k sustainable. Claymore 3-4k sustainable quite cheaply, etc. 8k tank on a dual injected <1bil scorp navy issue.

These ASBs give somewhat high 'active tank' values, but that 60second reload is a killer, so really they're just buffer that won't save you from alpha. Go divide a large buffer by a few k dps and for a minute or two you're tanking, then you die just the same.
They're more like concealable buffer.

Apart from the Rokh or Ferox, maybe. IDK what else will be able to benefit from the active value while also last through the reload to boost some more.

Sparkus Volundar
May 28 2012, 04:31:59 PM
They last through most of a dock/jump deagro timer so I don't think they will see a lot of field re-loading.

^^Or, as Mr Fish would put it, I don't think there will be any storms tomorrow.

LordsServant
May 28 2012, 05:19:48 PM
Or, stop trying to overuse FOTM modules. They work perfectly fine in 2 booster setups which were previously unfeasible due to lolneuting. Just run one standard booster, and one ancillary. Problem solved, win/win/win.

Rudolf Miller
May 28 2012, 06:11:25 PM
Or, stop trying to overuse FOTM modules. They work perfectly fine in 2 booster setups which were previously unfeasible due to lolneuting. Just run one standard booster, and one ancillary. Problem solved, win/win/win.

Says the guy who spammed the fitting section with maximum damage mod drone setups ;)

LordsServant
May 28 2012, 09:25:09 PM
Or, stop trying to overuse FOTM modules. They work perfectly fine in 2 booster setups which were previously unfeasible due to lolneuting. Just run one standard booster, and one ancillary. Problem solved, win/win/win.

Says the guy who spammed the fitting section with maximum damage mod drone setups ;)

Without getting off topic - those are all mostly legit setups. I will personally be trying the dominix setup once I get a working computer. Noone expects 1500+ dps dominix, tanked or no.

I think that Ancillery boosters purpose is just that - a backup/service booster. You run your main one, and if your tank starts to get overwhelmed, they provide a bit of extra "oomph" wihtout compromising your cap. Also, theyre a backup for when you get neuted, or if you need that extra bit of ludicrous tank to deaggro and gtfo. They shouldnt be used on their own imo.

Tawa Suyo
May 29 2012, 11:25:57 AM
If you want a 'proper' active setup then just use two of them and alternate which one is running. Only really doable with the L/XL since the smaller navy charges allow you to run for 52 seconds before you need to reload and you can always do a pulse (or maybe two) off of the main capacitor if you really need to before switching to the other booster.

Or you can just use a single one as pseudo-buffer and hope like hell you don't get over DPS'd (altho I guess that applies to dedicated active tanking too)

Daneel Trevize
May 29 2012, 01:34:57 PM
By god the cap drain when these things run out of charges is maddening. Was mwd-ing about in a Cyclone, being kited but almost catching the guy with a scram, when suddenly completely 0 cap because the ASP ate it all. Repeated the situation a few times, learnt to be v careful about it if you plan to do anything more than run tackle & invuln. And even then. You think you're good because some ships have a decent cap when not using a regular shield booster, and then trip.

xanral
May 29 2012, 07:56:50 PM
Now if someone could just confirm the details around interaction with ganglinks, crystals and blue pills/drugs (wonder if other drugs and things like CPRs actually decrease boost amount?).
works with everything except blue pills.

I wonder if it also does not work with the negative side-effects of boosters too. If you take standard crash and get the shield boost amount penalty would it affect the ancillary shield booster or not?

Daneel Trevize
May 29 2012, 11:12:00 PM
Seriously, how to stop the cap drain at end of injected cycles? No auto-repeat means a lot of button spamming to run it, but should avoid all but 1 cycle of cap drain if you're paying attention. No auto reload means more than 60s before it's loaded again, but the option of raping your cap until you remember to tell it to reload.
I want it to auto cycle until empty, and then auto reload, no cap rape in between. (Unless I'm being a retard and fitting a large cap battery instead of an LSE, then maybe I'll want a cycle or two at most - basically never a useful feature).

xanral
May 29 2012, 11:19:57 PM
Seriously, how to stop the cap drain at end of injected cycles? No auto-repeat means a lot of button spamming to run it, but should avoid all but 1 cycle of cap drain if you're paying attention. No auto reload means more than 60s before it's loaded again, but the option of raping your cap until you remember to tell it to reload.
I want it to auto cycle until empty, and then auto reload, no cap rape in between. (Unless I'm being a retard and fitting a large cap battery instead of an LSE, then maybe I'll want a cycle or two at most - basically never a useful feature).

I haven't had a problem managing it so far really. Wait till the last cap charge is being used then manually click off and it starts its auto reload cycle.

Daneel Trevize
May 29 2012, 11:25:06 PM
It really needs a new icon at least. Stopping a cap or shield booster when tanking looks fucking wrong.

Diziet
May 29 2012, 11:43:49 PM
With the large and xlg I think your better off turning auto cycle off. The mods cycle so fast that I think your wasting your boost by just continually running the mod. Unless your being pressed by a gang you can't tank anyways and can't kill in time before you run out of boost.

Sponk
May 30 2012, 12:01:46 AM
So, 2x large ASB: why use them instead of 1x large SB + cap booster ?

Varcaus
May 30 2012, 12:38:10 AM
Fitting? need a largeish cargo?

Sponk
May 30 2012, 01:06:10 AM
Fitting? need a largeish cargo?

Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I: 85 tf + 150 MW
Medium electrochemical cap: 25 tf + 150MW

so, easier to fit than 2x

LASB: 100 tf + 150 MW

(add +30MW for T2 versions but it is still less CPU than to LASBs)

xanral
May 30 2012, 08:20:30 AM
So, 2x large ASB: why use them instead of 1x large SB + cap booster ?

You're under heavy neut pressure with well spaced neuts. You'll end up getting more boost cycles with the ASBs (though probably be without your invul field) than the normal SB/cap booster combo. You can also double your burst tank for a few cycles to finish off that last target before your ship explodes from the blob on you. In a less neut heavy situation you're probably better off with the traditional setup (especially if you pimp your shield booster).

It seems to help quite a bit when you also have a vampire for the 2x large ASB ships so you can keep your point and possibly invul field running through neuts.

Tafkat
June 1 2012, 10:01:11 PM
So, 2x large ASB: why use them instead of 1x large SB + cap booster ?
First, the ASBs are more cap-efficient: you get 240 shield for 160* cap on a T2 LSB (and 336 shield for 160* cap from a Pith X-Type large), versus 390 shield for a 150 booster in an ALSB. Second, the ASB tank is neut-proof: if you're using a conventional active shield tank under heavy neuting and are spamming the cap booster, there's a good chance that you will only get to use some of the 800 cap you inject on each cycle, with any cap that isn't used *immediately* just being neuted away. That can't happen with ASBs. Third, the ancillary boosters are slightly more cargo-efficient than regular boosters. A navy 800 takes up 24m3 and gives you 5 cycles on your large shield booster. The navy 150s used in the ALSB take up 4.5m3 each, so your 24m3 gets you 5.3333 cycles on the ALSB (with each cycle giving you more shield than the conventional booster, ofc). Granted, this last point is complicated by the fact that your ship has some natural cap regen and you may be able to get through some situations with reduced cap injection or even without injecting cap at all. However, when your tank is under significant pressure, and especially if that's accompanied by neuting, the dual LASB setup is generally going to be considerably stronger and more resilient.

*With shield compensation V, this drops to 144 cap for the conventional shield boosters, meaning that the T2 LSB gives 1.67 shield per GJ of cap burned, the Pith X-Type large gives 2.33, and the T1 ALSB gives 2.6.

prometheus
June 5 2012, 04:16:06 PM
oddly enough, you can't use these while warping.
reload yes, activate no

Verybad
June 5 2012, 06:19:27 PM
They're pretty sick on frigs, since the fights are usually over so quickly the reload time is not that big a deal. A single MASB is better than an MSE especially considering the lack of a sig radius penalty. On a t1 ship with just a suitcase and two resist rigs for tank, a MASB gives about 3k EHP in 30 seconds. It just means you usually have to fit a co-pro instead of a MAPC.

Dual LASB cyclone is pretty amazing as well, ~500 dps sustainable tank with a heated invuln, 1000 dps if you're running both boosters.

Anything that makes neuts less effective and locally tanking more viable is swaggalicious in my book

xanral
June 26 2012, 07:37:44 PM
Decided to run some numbers to do a comparison between the dual X-L ASB and a Pith X-Type X-LSB and a Dread Guristas X-LSB.

An example on my notation to avoid confusion: If you are +100% faster than a ship traveling 1000 m/s then that means you are traveling at 2000 m/s.

Case A description:
A 2 minute steady boost cycle (keep in mind that the ASB cannot boost all 60 seconds so its only 52/60 of the listed number) without links or crystals.

Case B description:
A 2 minute steady boost cycle with max tengu links (just resistance for the ASB as again we're looking at steady state and all 3 for the Pith and DG ones).

Case C description:
How efficient is the boost amount in m3. (assumes ASB never uses cap to boost and that the normal X-LSBs use only cap supplied by the booster)

Case D description:
The same as C but with Tengu links.

Case A-low neut (so the ASB cannot run off cap at all):
Dual X-L ASB is +40% stronger than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +1% stronger than the Pith X X-L

Case A-heavy neut (you can only get 1 boost on the normal X-LSBs a cap charge and are using navy 800s in a single T2 cap booster):
Dual X-L ASB is +384% stronger than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +245% stronger than the Pith X X-L

Case B-low neut (so the ASB cannot run at all off cap):
Pith X-L is +52% stronger than the Dual X-L ASB
DG X-L is +9% stronger than the Dual X-L ASB

Case C:
Dual X-L ASB is +47% more efficient than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +5% more efficient than the Pith X X-L

Case D :
DG X-L is +5% more efficient than the Dual X-L ASB
Pith X X-L is +47% more efficient than the Dual X-L ASB

xanral
November 28 2012, 06:46:14 PM
I ran the numbers again with the changes going in for December. Using the same setup and cases as the ones above.

Case A-low neut:
DG X-L is 2% stronger than Dual X-L ASB
Pith X X-L is 43% stronger than Dual X-L ASB

Case A-high neut (as a note its assumed a T2 large cap booster for the normal SBs):
Dual X-L ASB is 227% stronger than DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is 133% stronger than Pith X X-L

Case B-low neut:
DG X-L is 58% stronger than Dual X-L ASB
Pith X X-L is 118% stronger than Dual X-L ASB

Case C (no change):
Dual X-L ASB is +47% more efficient than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +5% more efficient than the Pith X X-L

Case D (no change):
DG X-L is +5% more efficient than the Dual X-L ASB
Pith X X-L is +47% more efficient than the Dual X-L ASB

ASBs with the nerf will now give the following raw shield HP total before needing a reload (assuming best cap charge size used and no ship cap used):
X-L ASB: 8820
L ASB: 3510
M ASB: 1022 (going off the estimate of 7 charges now)
S ASB: 364 (going off the estimate of 7 charges now)

For comparison Shield Extenders have the following values:
LSE II: 2625
MSE II: 1050
SSE II: 263
MicroSE II: 131

Cue1*
November 28 2012, 08:00:35 PM
So, if I'm reading those numbers right, X-L ASBs and LASBs are still worth using, just not as powerful as before.

Yankunytjatjara
December 7 2012, 02:52:18 PM
Worth noting that they take less grid then the same size extender, and more cpu, so depending on fit they can still be worth it.

In other words... Could it be... That they are... Dare I say

Balanced?