CCP Decision on B Teams

[LoKiPP]

Dearest Alliance Tournament Interested Space Commanders,

Many of you have seen that there have been a few changes to the rules between this year and last year’s tournament. Aside from the usual yearly tweaks in format and ship composition we’ve also had to add or change some rules in order to provide an environment of fair competition, or as fair as competition can be within EVE. We learned as a team last year that in order to provide a fair environment for the entire EVE audience we need to be a lot more careful with the sometimes hard-to-gauge overlap in alliances in order to ensure that the tournament wasn’t simply packed with the B and C teams of immensely influential or powerful alliances. This is the EVE Alliance Tournament which we believe should be a venue for as many of the alliances as possible from within New Eden to compete for the top prize. We don’t believe that a small alliance who can only field one team should struggle against the odds simply to be a competitor with the odds stacked against them by people who have the capacity to essentially place multiple bets.

In addition to our concerns about smaller teams even being able to gain entry we’ve encountered a situation where carefully coordinated collusion between alliances, which from the tournament perspective operate as a single logical unit, can also twist the results which in our view presents an equally unfair playing field. This is not at all to say that there’s no place for metagaming of any kind in the tournament. This is EVE afterall and that represents a critical component of the universe we all enjoy. It does mean however that we need to pay increased attention to situations where there is a negative situation and enforce our rules equally and fairly in the spirit for which they were made.

It is because of these philosophical beliefs and changes that we have come to the tough decision of removing three teams from eligibility for competition in Alliance Tournament X.

It was widely known after the finals last year that Hydra Reloaded and Outbreak. had worked together as a single unit in order to game the competition. It was our hope that they would take their winnings and enter this year’s tournament as separate entities without having to consider a replay of last year. They are both individually highly competitive teams and when they are working in their own interests they are among the best. Unfortunately Hydra and Outbreak are working from the same playbook as last year, practicing together in a single corporation on the test server in a single wormhole. We view them as they represent themselves, which mirrors how they represented themselves last year, as a single entity. For that reason they are barred from competition having entered the tournament masquerading as two units while functioning in reality as one.

YOUR VOTES DON’T COUNT is an alliance consisting of a holding corporation and Sniggwaffe, which is widely known as the farm team for Sniggerdly. This is a fact which they openly admit. Unfortunately given that fact, and given the fact that the team captain and CEO bounce regularly between or have alts in Pandemic Legion, we cannot consider them anything other than a B team for Pandemic Legion and as such have to remove them from eligibility for competition.

Other than removal from competition none of the teams affected will be penalized in any way and their application fees will be returned.

We know that some of you will agree with this decision and some of you, clearly those removed, will not. We have not gone into it lightly and have spent multiple hours deliberating about it. We are however, unanimous in this decision given the weight of the evidence and felt it best to get this out of the way prior to any bidding in the auction this evening. Ultimately we feel that the equal enforcement of these rules is necessary in order to provide a competitive and fair tournament environment and that was the basis for our decision. We apologize to those affected sincerely that we did not make this decision any sooner, but it was not one that was made lightly and needed to be given due attention. While we understand that some of you may be a bit put off please try to maintain some modicum of decorum (that means don’t be a butt) on the forums as the rules haven’t changed and we won’t be here to see your rage this evening as we’re running the auctions.

I also want to note that we will be continuing these investigations throughout the tournament and there may at later stages be teams that choose to game the system. Should that occur we will edit this thread and include additional information related to their removal.

With all that said we’re looking forward to moving on and making Alliance Tournament X the best and most competitive tournament ever so enjoy the rest of your evening!

Running list of removed teams:

Hydra Reloaded
Outbreak.
YOUR VOTES DON’T COUNT(Sniggwaffe)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=112975&find=unread

[Intigo]

Haha, oh wow.

So TEST & Goons practice together, but Outbreak and HYDRA can't...?

[rojomojo915]

Well fuck, Im pretty upset right now.

[Daneel Trevize]

This has to be a troll. I mean, it's official, but seriously, Sreegs be trollin', or Summer of Rage 2.0 is right on track.

[Intigo]

This has to be a troll. I mean, it's official, but seriously, Sreegs be trollin', or Summer of Rage 2.0 is right on track.

I doubt that - most people see us as the villain despite doing nothing wrong and practicing like many others have too.

Your random EVE player will not care that HYDRA & Outbreak were removed from the tournament. Your random EVE player only cares about things that actually changes EVE for him.

edit: anyway, official response is coming

[Rivqua]

This has to be a troll. I mean, it's official, but seriously, Sreegs be trollin', or Summer of Rage 2.0 is right on track.

I doubt that - most people see us as the villain despite doing nothing wrong and practicing like many others have too.

Your random EVE player will not care that HYDRA & Outbreak were removed from the tournament. Your random EVE player only cares about things that actually changes EVE for him.

But you also have a history of not being competetive :)

[rojomojo915]

This has to be a troll. I mean, it's official, but seriously, Sreegs be trollin', or Summer of Rage 2.0 is right on track.

I doubt that - most people see us as the villain despite doing nothing wrong and practicing like many others have too.

Your random EVE player will not care that HYDRA & Outbreak were removed from the tournament. Your random EVE player only cares about things that actually changes EVE for him.

To be fair, Hydra/Outbreak did shoot themselves in the foot if they were really testing together. You could see how in CCP's eyes that if both Hydra/Outbreak made it to the finals again they would think history would repeat itself.

Im hoping that if both Hydra/Outbreak had made it to finals this year you would of fought it out, but now we will never know.

Edit: I do agree w/ the sentiment on the EVE forums though that either Hydra or Outbreak should have been allowed to enter.

[Daneel Trevize]

But you also have a history of not being competetive :) Not competetive, or too competitive?
Im hoping that if both Hydra/Outbreak had made it to finals this year you would of fought it out, but now we will never know.Fight, for your right, to party!

[StevieTopSiders]

TEST Alliance is GSF B Team. Kickickick

[Ampoliros]

Did Hydra/Outbreak ask CCP how they'd be allowed to enter like RvB did?

[rojomojo915]

Did Hydra/Outbreak ask CCP if how they'd be allowed to enter as separate teams or whatever like RvB did?

Looks like they actually asked CCP if they could test together before starting to test and never got a response.

Edit: Although I doubt that CCP was thinking about this back when Hydra probably started testing in January or something crazy like that.

[Intigo]

Did Hydra/Outbreak ask CCP if how they'd be allowed to enter as separate teams or whatever like RvB did?

Looks like they actually asked CCP if they could test together before starting to test and never got a response.

Edit: Although I doubt that CCP was thinking about this back when Hydra probably started testing in January or something crazy like that.

not entirely true

and we didn't test in january ffs :D haha

[rojomojo915]

Did Hydra/Outbreak ask CCP if how they'd be allowed to enter as separate teams or whatever like RvB did?

Looks like they actually asked CCP if they could test together before starting to test and never got a response.

Edit: Although I doubt that CCP was thinking about this back when Hydra probably started testing in January or something crazy like that.

not entirely true

and we didn't test in january ffs :D haha

So what actually happened then? I think most of us want to know.

[Intigo]

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356702#post1356702 zara post is up

not sure if that's "official hydra response"

edit: Garmon posted right after, read that instead

Senior GM confirmed that it was ok to practice together, other petitions / mails were left unanswered

[Rans]

Well, this seems a bit vindictive.

[Duncan]

Did Hydra/Outbreak ask CCP how they'd be allowed to enter like RvB did?

We asked them multiple times if we were allowed to test together through e-mails to the eve tv mailing address and petitions.

We got a response from one senior GM who said it was fine to test together.

However the tournament team ignored us completely until they decided to ban us for it.

[DaDutchDude]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

[rojomojo915]

Well, this seems a bit vindictive.

As my corp mate said, its been 6 years since Kugu and CCP is still mad. Im starting to think that Hydra and Outbreak can expect the same treatment.

[Intigo]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

[Raivi]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

[DaDutchDude]

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is
I think you misunderstand me.

The game is not set up to be fair. Trying to force a 'fair' tournament upon it is artificial, and really doesn't fit EVE or its culture. Players will always try to get around any 'rules' put up in the spirit of 'gamesmanship' and any attempt to set some rules and enforce them will result in arbitrary decisions. The simple fact is: nobody can either prove or disprove if you are trying to get around the rules, or at least the intention of them. You can say you're not, but it is completely legitimate in the culture of EVE to lie, cheat and steal your way to a tourney win even when CCP is trying to stop people from doing that.

So in the end, decisions become arbitrary and only serve to cast doubt and negativity on the whole event, without ever guaranteeing the tournament actually will be fair.

[Intigo]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

[rojomojo915]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

I would really like to think they did and they are not doing this simple because they are mad about last year. Even still, one of the teams should be allowed.

[Varcaus]

Trolololol we trolled CCP wait what no at for us? -_- total shocker

[StevieTopSiders]

So what we're trying to avoid is a thrown match like last time. We want Outbreak. to be interested in beating Hydra at all costs, and vice versa.

If this were actually the case, you would definitely not be sharing the top-secret fits (that you are obviously crafting to destroy the other team in the finals) with each other in your single corp hangar. You guys aren't keeping secrets from one another, and if you each wanted to win independently of the other (meaning no debacle like last year), you would have secrets.

However, I am for allowing you guys to compete as Purple-like entity. vOv

[Duncan]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. If we were testing in regular space we would not join the same corp but testing in wormhole space requires this. I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

This is not even the issue though. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

[Raivi]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

Considering that Sreegs specifically cited the fact that you were in the same cop in the same wormhole as the reason for the ban, yeah I think it entered their mind.

[Intigo]

Trolololol we trolled CCP wait what no at for us? -_- total shocker

Are you serious? When did we ever try to "troll" CCP?

The final last year was a mistake and was not meant to end the way it did and everything this year was done in good faith while trying to communicate with CCP.

How can you post like that and hit reply without thinking "wow that's pretty dumb"

[Zavior]

If they asked(several times, mind you) what they were doing and received 'ok' from a senior ccp employee, this punishment seems to be done just to screw up hydra and outbreak.

[rojomojo915]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. If we were testing in regular space we would not join the same corp but testing in wormhole space requires this. I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

This is not even the issue though. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

You couldn't seriously think that after last year's finals fiasco and seeing the A/B teams rules that putting everyone in the same corp was a good idea? Yes you asked for clarification, but no where in the mails that Garmon posted did it mention both Hydra and Outbreak being in the same corp, and even if it did, you shouldnt have done it until after you got a response, just to keep yourself from the mess that you are in now.

You are trying to blame CCP for this whole mess, and yes, some of it should be on them for taking forever to respond, but you need to accept accountability in this too.

[Raivi]

Hydra guys, after the last tournament both Shadoo and I went to bat for you guys in the aftermath of the finals. Kil2 can comfirm that we defended and supported you guys for the fact that you didn't break any rules and we took a lot of flak for it.

I honestly can't see how you thought joining the same corp while being "seperate teams" would be allowed though. I really can't.

I was expecting CCP to just ban one of the teams, but I didn't think there was any chance at all of CCP letting you both play while being in one corp on sisi.

[xanral]

It would be nice if in cases like this CCP was more willing to communicate with the alliances in question. When some GM/Dev saw them in the same corp on the test server instead of going "aha!" perhaps they could have opened up a conversation to ask what the hell they thought they were doing. Then the CCP rep would have learned about the messages and petitions and could have stated a clear ruling or at least said "don't do that until we get back to you". A policy of talk first enforce mandates later would probably save them from a bunch of drama at the end of the day.

*Edit - I say this having being a GM of a small MMO before, I always spoke to the parties involved first and tried to reach a mutually satisfying conclusion for everyone involved. Only when people decided to be uncompromising assholes while also being in the wrong on the rules did I start handing down mandates.

[Traxio Nacho]

If they asked(several times, mind you) what they were doing and received 'ok' from a senior ccp employee, this punishment seems to be done just to screw up hydra and outbreak.

A GM being inconsistent, in Eve you say? I don't believe it.

[Ituralde]

I don't want to be in an alliance tournament that doesn't have the top teams in it.

I want to face the best of the best and see how good our alliance can do against them.

This isn't supposed to be about second bests. Anyone with a clue knows that Outbreak and Hydra always have been separate and distinct entities with unique histories and involvement in EVE.

This is bullshit.

[LoKiPP]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356876#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

Yes 100%. Its obvious they really care about the tournament.

[LoKiPP]

I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

No matter how many petitions you send stating your intentions, joining a single corp made them start questioning. Running two separate corps for two separate tourny teams would of been easy for you guys to do and truly shown you guys were split for this tournament. But last years finals and joining the single corp obviously made CCP sit down and rethink how they were going to handle this and this is their decision.

[rojomojo915]

And CCP just locked the tread on the EVE forums.

Edit: Just found my favorite post in that thread.


one might say:

EVE ATX is Easy?

[Duncan]

I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

No matter how many petitions you send stating your intentions, joining a single corp made them start questioning. Running two separate corps for two separate tourny teams would of been easy for you guys to do and truly shown you guys were split for this tournament. But last years finals and joining the single corp obviously made CCP sit down and rethink how they were going to handle this and this is their decision.

The logistics of practicing in a WH means that it makes the most sense for everyone to be in a single corp. Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS and two corps in the same wormhole is not going to prevent this somehow.

[rojomojo915]

I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

No matter how many petitions you send stating your intentions, joining a single corp made them start questioning. Running two separate corps for two separate tourny teams would of been easy for you guys to do and truly shown you guys were split for this tournament. But last years finals and joining the single corp obviously made CCP sit down and rethink how they were going to handle this and this is their decision.

The logistics of practicing in a WH means that it makes the most sense for everyone to be in a single corp. Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS and two corps in the same wormhole is not going to prevent this somehow.

Doesn't matter what it actually prevents or doesn't prevent, what matters is what it looks like. And it looked like, to CCP, you guys were trying to game the system again.

[Varcaus]

Trolololol we trolled CCP wait what no at for us? -_- total shocker

Are you serious? When did we ever try to "troll" CCP?

The final last year was a mistake and was not meant to end the way it did and everything this year was done in good faith while trying to communicate with CCP.

How can you post like that and hit reply without thinking "wow that's pretty dumb"
Go dig up the new rule announce ment were there are plenty of post say "we trolled CCP" and "lol they mad".

[Ituralde]

They are in the same corp.

ON THE TEST SERVER.

Are you serious? They should be banned over something

ON THE TEST SERVER.

One more time for emphasis, this happened

ON THE TEST SERVER.

Holy shit batman.

Nobody can stretch this to be Same Alliance, Two teams. Its not Same Alliance, Two Teams by any stretch of the imagination.

Its Two Teams, Two Alliances, One Pos.

ON THE TEST SERVER.


Seriously, this is bullshit. If they ban this, they should ban every team with spies, because its people with alts on other tourney teams/alliances.

[dpidcoe]

Well, this seems a bit vindictive.

[Varcaus]

They are in the same corp.

ON THE TEST SERVER.

Are you serious? They should be banned over something

ON THE TEST SERVER.

One more time for emphasis, this happened

ON THE TEST SERVER.

Holy shit batman.

Nobody can stretch this to be Same Alliance, Two teams. Its not Same Alliance, Two Teams by any stretch of the imagination.

Its Two Teams, Two Alliances, One Pos.

ON THE TEST SERVER.


Seriously, this is bullshit. If they ban this, they should ban every team with spies, because its people with alts on other tourney teams/alliances.not sure if serious.
(spies = working together:psyduck:)

[Raimo]

Quite the bitch slap. Doesn't make CCP look terribly good though, what with all the asking beforehand and getting a go ahead bit :P

[Zeekar]

Meh a bit over the top ccp but at least it gives me the chance to say: Hey intigo even my alliance got further in AT then yours : >

[Intigo]

Meh a bit over the top ccp but at least it gives me the chance to say: Hey intigo even my alliance got further in AT then yours : >

than*

[bh]

CCP should just close the test server 2 months prior to every tournament. Teams should have to test on TQ :v:

[Chakrai]

Tournament-is-easy.com

[NoirAvlaa]

CCP are retarded non shocker.

[The Monkeysphere]

:ccp:


One of the teams should be allowed. Sorry for you guys, true shame about the lost hours

[Rans]

So even if outbreak and hydra were training in the same corp and going for the same tactic as last year...why would you just ban them? it's silly to ban them like that, they're 2 of the best teams in eve with some of the hardest working guys in the AT. What would PL's win story be without the guy that had written tens of pages about their opponent's practice schedules in detail? Or Hydra's win without the meticulous training and mindfuckery?

Through their intentional trolling, stupid mistakes before the start of fights and shenanigans Hydra have been one of the most entertaining alliances in eve...I just think it's CCP's way of giving Hydra the finger without really caring about the quality of their AT X or the fans, it's a disproportionate answer and it's made dumber by the conversation with the GM.

So yeah, enjoy an AT with Razor and god knows what other bad alliances are going to be there.

[Varcaus]

I just think it's CCP's way of giving Hydra the finger without really caring about the quality of their AT X or the fans, it's a disproportionate answer.


I think that want a non bs fight for the big final this year. Could have been easy to do last year but it was decided to obviously bs the last match.

[Intigo]

wow Varcaus, you are truly retarded

[Steph]

And CCP just locked the tread on the EVE forums.

And I see CCP has relapsed to its old head-in-sand ways.

Sigh. And we were doing so well up until now.

[EchoEpsilon23]

In my personal opinion, Hydra and Outbreak are just mad about this whole thing because they can't meta-game like they did in last years tournament. I can't honestly blame CCP given how much of last years tournament was a blatant embarassment on there own part about the whole thing of meta-gaming and a rigged final in the eyes of the press and viewers of the Eve Alliance final. So, really fuck Hydra and Outbreak.

[Varcaus]

wow Varcaus, you are truly retarded

Are you going to tell me that if it was fought out it would have changed anything beyond CCP being mad?

[Max Teranous]

Hydra/outbreak took a massive dump all over CCPs big event last year, to have a hope of not falling foul of the B team rule they shouldn't have been anywhere near each other in testing. They must have realised they'd be under VERY close scrutiny this time around. But they went ahead and all joined the same corp on sisi :facepalm:

Karma is a bitch, as they say.

Max 8-)

[Beardponderer]

They list poorly written rules regarding entering two or more teams with a silly catch-all definition and no clear black and white stance. Then how it's enforced is entirely up to the teams judgement. Then on top of that they completely screw the bans given out by seemingly favouring one 'double team' over another.

The worst thing out of all this though is the complete lack of communication on CCP's part. Sure Hydra and Outbreak may have been skirting the lines a little bit but not replying to any contact attempts and then banning them out of the blue without even getting clarification? Smacks of Kugu-esque prejudice.

The most worrying thing is that this makes it seem like in the future teams (especially small ones) can't test with each other at all on the run-up to the AT for fear of indiscriminate banning. Who knows, with the way this AT is going we might not even get another.

Fuck the CCP Alliance Tournament team.

[EntroX]

l o l

[I Legionnaire]

Hey guess what, being in the alliance tournament is a privilege, not right. You made CCP mad, and now they've taken their GI Joes home.

[Leboe]

1)Kick every alliance who practices with other alliances
2)have no alliance left
3)?????
4)Profit!




seriously, they're like 12k up in this tournament so far.

[The Monkeysphere]

Glad to see that ccp can find ways to make the rare people who are actually good at their god-awful game cringe again and again - no other company can constantly induce bitterness in its playerbase after so long a run. Never change ccp




also locating and identifying other alliances' teams with hax was great back in the day

[Liptonez]

Really looking forward to "Why so serious" and "Babylon 5dotdot" fighting each other in the finals with setups that just don't make any sense at all.

Even if they went and fucked up the finals again... Just don't give them the ships and give them to 3rd and 4th instead? That would be rather humiliating tbh.

[Rans]

Hey guess what, being in the alliance tournament is a privilege, not right. You made CCP mad, and now they've taken their GI Joes home.


Do you see CCP's direction that went from "teh sandbox" to "the nanny game"?

[SupaflyTNT]

Knowing how much work they put in to prep this is a joke tbh...

On the upside maybe Knifee will come back soon \o/ (hydra can keep eden)

[dpidcoe]

Hey guess what, being in the alliance tournament is a privilege, not right. You made CCP mad, and now they've taken their GI Joes home.


Do you see CCP's direction that went from "teh sandbox" to "the nanny game"?
They've been going in that direction since I started playing in 2008, so nbs really.

[Mfume]

Do you see CCP's direction that went from "teh sandbox" to "the nanny game"?

AT has always been the nanny game.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

1)Kick every alliance who practices with other alliances
2)have no alliance left
3)?????
4)Profit!




seriously, they're like 12k up in this tournament so far.

1) Be well known for collusion from last tournament
2) Drop corp and join same corp in same wormhole for joint practice this tournament
3) Disregard anything related to B team / collusion rules
4) Act surprised when you get kicked.


Look, CCP was a bit dick about this. Maybe a warning or something coming first? Maybe there were warnings? I dunno.

The point is as mentioned in this thread the two teams who created the whole shitstorm about collusion in the first place should know better than to obviously practice together in the same place in the same corp (regardless of whether this "makes sense" or not) immediately before this tournament.

It's extremely clear that you've been made an example of, but that's what you get for being visible and stupid about the rules this time around.

You're in the spotlight, you get the boot. It's a bit shit but for the 2 months around AT you play by a few rules.

AT is a "sport" in the universe of Eve Online. I know everybody hates "real life" comparisons, but if you think about AT as a sport, and you look at the real world, you can see some good parallels regarding tighter rules and restrictions (performance enhancers? Collusion on losses? exact same stuff!) compared to what's "legal" in the day to day world.

You entered a league as hotshots and got shit on by a rule specifically set up because of moves you made last year. HTFU and don't be babbies.

edit: to be clear i think it's really unfortunate this happened, but I hardly think blame solely rests at CCP's feet.

2nd edit: also yeah only one or the other should have been banned, however I think both being banned falls under the category of "being made an example of"

[Bacchanalian]

HAY GIES WE TROLLED CCP BY MAKING A TOTAL MOCKERY OF THE MOST-WATCHED EVENT AND BIGGEST MARKETING TOOL CCP HAS AND DESPITE THEM POSTING SPECIFIC RULES TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN WE IGNORED IT POSTED UMADBRO AND ARE NOW QQ OVER THE FACT THAT CCP ACTUALLY ENFORCED THEIR RULES!11!11

Seriously, it was said earlier in the thread, but after that fiasco last year and the fact that CCP clearly introduced rules specifically tailored towards preventing it from happening again, the fact that both involved parties did not decide to immediately put as much space between each other as possible to ensure CCP that they would actually not buttfuck the event this year is pants on fucking head retarded. Play with fire like that, and you WILL eventually get burned.

My only criticism about it is the inconsistency between the decisions. PL and their alt alliance didn't both get banned, just the alt alliance. Seems to me like either all teams involved should have been banned, or just one from each incident. v0v

[Intigo]

Other Alliances have practiced together just fine. Are the rules different for us? Are they different just because we joined a single corp?

Not to mention 2 emails to the EveTV address went completely unanswered and ignored - the only response we got from CCP told us we were fine, everything else was ignored.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Other Alliances have practiced together just fine. Are the rules different for us? Are they different just because we joined a single corp?the rule isn't about practicing together its about COLLUDING to determine an outcome, something the two alliances in question were already proven to have done in a previous tournament.

As to the email yeah it makes it tougher and certainly a mark against CCP but honestly a GM? Some of them don't know game mechanics so knowing last years AT history is a huge stretch.

[Intigo]

Other Alliances have practiced together just fine. Are the rules different for us? Are they different just because we joined a single corp?the rule isn't about practicing together its about COLLUDING to determine an outcome, something the two alliances in question were already proven to have done in a previous tournament.

As to the email yeah it makes it tougher and certainly a mark against CCP but honestly a GM? Some of them don't know game mechanics so knowing last years AT history is a huge stretch.

No shit, GMs are pretty incompetent. But it was the ONLY CCP RESPONSE WE EVER GOT. Everything else was IGNORED and no one EVER responded to it. How are we supposed to interpret the rules if all our requests for clarification are IGNORED and the one response we DO GET says "it's ok, you cool"

How is that OK?!

[Sponk]

Maybe by being prudent?

Ofc AT9 suggests you're incapable of that.

[Maromi]

The game is not set up to be fair. Trying to force a 'fair' tournament upon it is artificial, and really doesn't fit EVE or its culture.

Have to agree with this. Not sure what CCP is thinking here.

Hell, in past years, they actively encouraged this sort of skullduggery. Someone should dig up previous CCP quotes from past tournaments. They really did say something to the effect of "if you can game this tournament, more power to you".

[Leboe]

Not to mention 2 emails to the EveTV address went completely unanswered and ignored - the only response we got from CCP told us we were fine, everything else was ignored.



this is probably the worst part of it. He even acknowledged having a bunch of emails to sort through.




Fielding 24 people for a practice isn't easy for everyone. I don't even care about the corps thing to ease logistics, maybe CCP should make wormholes less shit.

[Ampoliros]

Seriously, it was said earlier in the thread, but after that fiasco last year and the fact that CCP clearly introduced rules specifically tailored towards preventing it from happening again, the fact that both involved parties did not decide to immediately put as much space between each other as possible to ensure CCP that they would actually not buttfuck the event this year is pants on fucking head retarded. Play with fire like that, and you WILL eventually get burned.

My only criticism about it is the inconsistency between the decisions. PL and their alt alliance didn't both get banned, just the alt alliance. Seems to me like either all teams involved should have been banned, or just one from each incident. v0v

Minus the capslock, mostly agreein' with this tbh. I would say that CCP probably felt the degree of colluding between PL and whatever alt alliance was pretty low , whereas hydra/outbreak were basically flaunting the B-team rules from their perspective. The no email response from CCP is pretty shitty and inexcusable, but considering how very serious CCP were being about the "No B teams" rule I would have stayed as far the fuck away from each other as possible.


Other Alliances have practiced together just fine. Are the rules different for us? Are they different just because we joined a single corp?

That was probably a good portion of it, tbh.

Anyhow, Loxy closed the thread and said that there's not gonna be any more discussion, decision final etc. I suspect AT10 will still be pretty interesting regardless. v0v

[Intigo]

It's not like we were trying to hide any of this. I'm disgusted that they can ban both teams after we've tried multiple times to get in contact and get a clear ruling on what is or isn't allowed.

[Cue1*]

maybe CCP should make wormholes less shit.

Hands of my motherfucking wormholes.


Anyhow, Loxy closed the thread and said that there's not gonna be any more discussion, decision final etc. I suspect AT10 will still be pretty interesting regardless. v0v

This fact alone shows that CCP is taking steps to go back to the old CCP that they used to be. Upsetting to say the least.

[Intigo]

Everyone (well, except for us, since we really wanted to fight in the tournament - most of the HYDRA team doesn't even play on TQ) will forget about this in 2 weeks anyway

hoorah.

[Mfume]

...most of the HYDRA team doesn't even play on TQ...

Why is that?

[Shiroi Okami]

...most of the HYDRA team doesn't even play on TQ...

Why is that?

Cause we were all on sisi practicing. Especially the logistics crew who spent literally hundreds of hours setting shit up for the team. Organising proper practices in a wormhole is no easy task, and having 4-5 of them a week on top of that eats up most of the time you'd otherwise spend playing eve. We were taking this seriously but apparently CCP wants top turn the AT X into a double standards pisstake where the reigning champions cannot defend their title

[Intigo]

...most of the HYDRA team doesn't even play on TQ...

Why is that?

For me, the standard game bores me. The tournament is exciting because it's always a massive challenge with excellent teams like PL / DS / that new Verge of Collapse team with VOLTA / etc. while most of us have done everything there is to do PvP-wise in EVE

I only showed up for Sisi practices and barely even bothered to update my TQ client because practicing and playing with friends is great fun and thinking about the tournament and following it as it progresses is fascinating.

Now I don't really have any reason to keep the TQ client subbed.

[roigon]

I already found it strange that hydra didn't get a free-pass for this years AT, because seriously what's a tournament without last years champion. But now to read that "after lots of deliberation" they've decided to completely ignore any and all communication and just prevent hydra and outbreak from entering. Adding to that that the one line of communication they did get is now ruled as wrong info and "too bad for you". I'm sure this years winner will be thrilled to know that they beat everyone except last years nr. 1 and 2.

If they were so butt hurt over it they should have contacted hydra and outbreak and lay out some strict groundrules, i.e. If you pull that shit again we're banning you from AT and we don't want to see your teams within 5 systems from each other. From what I read hydra and outbreak would have had no problem complying if CCP had done so. No doubt begrudgingly so, but I'd wager they rather follow silly rules and be able to compete then not compete at all.

This solution of just banning hydra and outbreak directly impacts the accomplishment of winning the AT itself.

[Duckslayer]

Now I don't really have any reason to keep the TQ client subbed.

http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/assets_c/2011/06/lebron-tiny-violin-thumb-400x300.gif

Also, this HUNDREDS OF HOURS bullshit to set up a fucking POS and bring mods in there? It doesnt take HUNDREDS OF HOURS to set up, stock and live out of a POS on TQ.

[Soryn Kael]

The moral of the story is don't shit where you eat.

[inora aknaria]

Also, this HUNDREDS OF HOURS bullshit to set up a fucking POS and bring mods in there? It doesnt take HUNDREDS OF HOURS to set up, stock and live out of a POS on TQ.

It has the potential to add up if you have to do it everytime CCP decides to set the test sever = TQ (and go do logistics when you want new ships etc etc)

[Intigo]

The moral of the story is don't shit where you eat.

please, do explain how that makes any sense at all

[Duckslayer]

Also, this HUNDREDS OF HOURS bullshit to set up a fucking POS and bring mods in there? It doesnt take HUNDREDS OF HOURS to set up, stock and live out of a POS on TQ.

It has the potential to add up if you have to do it everytime CCP decides to set the test sever = TQ (and go do logistics when you want new ships etc etc)

Maybe set up the testing pos on TQ? Get a static thats convenient. When the test server mirrors, oh look, youve instantly stopped yourself from having to set up a WH pos again

I appreciate the ballache of living in a wormhole, and understand logi takes time and can add up. But come on. IF it takes hundreds of hours you are doing it wrong


i suppose the moral of the story is dont eat where you shit. Obvious really when you think about it :)

[roigon]

Also, this HUNDREDS OF HOURS bullshit to set up a fucking POS and bring mods in there? It doesnt take HUNDREDS OF HOURS to set up, stock and live out of a POS on TQ.

It has the potential to add up if you have to do it everytime CCP decides to set the test sever = TQ (and go do logistics when you want new ships etc etc)

Maybe set up the testing pos on TQ? Get a static thats convenient. When the test server mirrors, oh look, youve instantly stopped yourself from having to set up a WH pos again



POS's don't get transfered to SISI.

[Intigo]

Duckslayer is about as competent as the majority of EVE-O posters, not worth your time trying to explain that

[Soryn Kael]

The moral of the story is don't shit where you eat.

please, do explain how that makes any sense at all

CCP runs Eve. If you piss them off bad things will happen to you. It's like a wardec. Reality is determined by the side that has the power. CCP has the power and in their reality Hydra and Outbreak are still obviously colluding and thus look like an A and a B team. I mean one team threw the final to the other. You can explain things however you want but at the end of the day they fucked over the ending of AT9, pissed off CCP and thus do not receive any slack. All the bitching and whining in the world isn't going to change things. Bitching and moaning about how unfair it all is isn't going to help their position in the future. If you give CCP a headache they're not going to want to deal with you ever.

[Intigo]

and everything about the final was unintentional

my eve-o poast:



Maybe if you didn't make a joke of the finals in the previous year, this wouldn't be happening?

Have you read Duncans post from last year? Last years final was a massive mistake and was not intended to go down that way. Everyone involved with that sincerely regrets how it went down and would love for nothing else than to have shown a true, fun brawl for everyone involved (that means, the viewers) to enjoy to the fullest. Mistakes were made and many apologies were made on the forums last year.

Do the rules apply differently to us because of what happened last year? Is it fair to punish 2 teams for a genuine mistake (that was in every way unintentional) that happened a year prior by ignoring any attempt at communication (emails) and invalidating the statements from 2 CCP members (the Senior GM in question and CCP Spitfire)? How can you argue for the validity of a ruling based on something that happened in an entirely different tournament with another ruleset?

I don't think you could find anyone more apologetic about how the finals went down last year than Duncan. We love to watch, follow and compete in the tournament as much as you do - we are fans like everyone else!

[Zeekar]

While i actually REALLY dislike what ccp done here, Intigo stop bullshiting that last year final was a mistake. You did it on purpose because you thought it would be a good laugh, the problem is ccp got their panties in the twist and made sure you will pay for any mistake you do this year. And claiming it was unintentional last year only makes you look childish.

As for hundreds of hours comments, well setting up and moving everything doesn't take that long but each practice can and usually takes more then a couple of hours. Combine that with almost daily practices for a couple of months and you're quickly in the hundreds of hours territory.

[Duckslayer]

POS's don't get transfered to SISI. .

I take it all back. WILL YOU EVER FORGIVE ME?!

Could you not stick a few freighters in a WH on TQ with the pos and some mods and ships in there. Log them off. That gets mirrored onto sisi right?

[The Monkeysphere]

POS's don't get transfered to SISI. .

I take it all back. WILL YOU EVER FORGIVE ME?!

Could you not stick a few freighters in a WH on TQ with the pos and some mods and ships in there. Log them off. That gets mirrored onto sisi right?

Stop posting you mindless imbecile.



Also intigo, the fact that most of HYDRA is still subbed is sad in itself, at last ~it's time to let go~

[Max Teranous]

It's not relevant what the intention was for the IX final at this point, only the facts matter. And the fact is it looked like a big fuck you. Hydra/outbreak have to live with those consequences, and part of that is the rules changes for this years tournie, and the obvious fact that they'd be watched like hawks. Everyone with a brain could see the way the wind was blowing with the new B team rules, and to put everyone into the same corp on sisi despite that was just asking for it.

BTW i think the tournie will be worse without Hydra/outbreak in it, but seriously guys, you can't be surprised this happened.

Max 8-)

[Intigo]

While i actually REALLY dislike what ccp done here, Intigo stop bullshiting that last year final was a mistake. You did it on purpose because you thought it would be a good laugh, the problem is ccp got their panties in the twist and made sure you will pay for any mistake you do this year. And claiming it was unintentional last year only makes you look childish.

As for hundreds of hours comments, well setting up and moving everything doesn't take that long but each practice can and usually takes more then a couple of hours. Combine that with almost daily practices for a couple of months and you're quickly in the hundreds of hours territory.

wat? I was THERE listening, I know that it wasn't intentional that it looked like utter fucking shite

christ Zeekar

[Duckslayer]

Stop posting you mindless imbecile.


http://i50.tinypic.com/2jfbspc.gifhttp://i50.tinypic.com/2jfbspc.gif.
http://i50.tinypic.com/2jfbspc.gif.
http://i50.tinypic.com/2jfbspc.gifhttp://i50.tinypic.com/2jfbspc.gif

[filingo]

fuck ccp

dev bias much

also if i could mod this section i would smite duckslayer from the forum

[roigon]

POS's don't get transfered to SISI. .

I take it all back. WILL YOU EVER FORGIVE ME?!

Could you not stick a few freighters in a WH on TQ with the pos and some mods and ships in there. Log them off. That gets mirrored onto sisi right?

I don't think a freighter can actually set up a POS by itself, but you could substitute it for orca's i guess.
Those would have to be piloted, meaning those pilots would need to be subbed accounts and unusable for actual training or doing anything on TQ. Their owners would need to be available when training so relying on a single pilot would be unwise.

I have no idea how many m3 of ships and mods a AT team goes trough for training but I would imagine a LOT. If you have a fixed training partner to condense it all into a single corp with 1 POS for training purposes just seems like a logical move to minimize the hassle surrounding training that doesn't actually buy you anything.

In hindsight this has undoubtedly been a silly move of them. And I would personally ridiculed them for it if they had not also repeatedly contacted ccp about it. Which for me is the reason CCP is the jerk and not hydra & outbreak for getting themselves banned.

Furthermore CCP in this applies a clear double standard for those of you who feel "ze rulez are ze rulez under hydraBreak broke ze rulez", the rule in fact says that the B-team will get banned, but not the main alliance team. I don't know which team in this instance is the b-team, but i guess we will never find out now since they both got banned.

[Yankunytjatjara]

:lol: Great move! How to go from being widely considered pros and heroes, to laughingstocks in less than one year. gf gf


Now I don't really have any reason to keep the TQ client subbed.

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2011/04/stuff.jpg

[Intigo]

if only we had the tactical prowess of RvB: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357650#post1357650

[Lallante]

What a surprise - the usual group of exploiting/cheating fucks does their normal "If we petition obviously wrong behaviour then we can keep doing it" dance, gets fucked in the ass then cries hot tears.

[Intigo]

What a surprise - the usual group of exploiting/cheating fucks does their normal "If we petition obviously wrong behaviour then we can keep doing it" dance, gets fucked in the ass then cries hot tears.

http://images.betterworldbooks.com/044/No-Biting-9780448425849.jpg

[Lallante]

Hey guess what, being in the alliance tournament is a privilege, not right. You made CCP mad, and now they've taken their GI Joes home.


Do you see CCP's direction that went from "teh sandbox" to "the nanny game"?

I hear an arranged tournament with fixed rules in a protected unaccessable system with unique prizes is p. sandbox meight

[Lallante]

You would have to be pretty fucking dumb to think that practicing together exactly the same as last year would be legitimate after a rule is introduced against collaborating, specifically because of your teams' behaviour last year.

Luckily Garmon and crew are p.f.d.

[filingo]

YOU ARE A LONE WOLF IN A SANDBOX

[Lallante]

While i actually REALLY dislike what ccp done here, Intigo stop bullshiting that last year final was a mistake. You did it on purpose because you thought it would be a good laugh, the problem is ccp got their panties in the twist and made sure you will pay for any mistake you do this year. And claiming it was unintentional last year only makes you look childish.

As for hundreds of hours comments, well setting up and moving everything doesn't take that long but each practice can and usually takes more then a couple of hours. Combine that with almost daily practices for a couple of months and you're quickly in the hundreds of hours territory.

wat? I was THERE listening, I know that it wasn't intentional that it looked like utter fucking shite

christ Zeekar

How do you unintentionally deactivate your guns/tank and let the other team win?

How do you unintentionally fight what is supposed to be a competative match from the same TS?

How do you unintentionally collude as to what ships both sides will be bringing to a match in a tourney where predicting and countering the opponents set ups is 90% of victory?

The only part that was unintentional is that it was so fucking obvious to those watching that the match was thrown. You wanted a close match, perhaps, but there was always a pre-determined outcome. Nothing unintentional about that.

[Pattern]

Lallante is owning this thread hard.

[blaad]

CCP's "Don't respond, respond shit, ban later. Oh and PL and RVB will get different treatment so they know we are still mad" is a dick move.

also: I like how the retards in this thread are assuming that if it was one corp, both parties known "all setups, all tactics and all theorycrafting". Because, god-forbid that thought, I can't really imagine any of this shining knights of e-honoure holding some secrets from each other or having something up their sleeves for the time they meet. That would be totally unevelike, rite?

e: OTOH after last year, when it was clear CPP was mad, I would be reluctant to even practice together. Just in case. But thats me, having no balls and shit.

[Smuggo]

Lallante is owning this thread hard.

P.much

I never really understood why you didn't just got a genuine final battle to see who could win. Since both alliances were gonna be recieving bajillions of ships, it should have just been a straight up fight to see who could best the other but I guess Garmon was too obsessed with coming first? Dunno why 0utbreak agreed to that TBH, they should have gone for the gold.

[Zeekar]

Lallante is owning this thread hard.

P.much

I never really understood why you didn't just got a genuine final battle to see who could win. Since both alliances were gonna be recieving bajillions of ships, it should have just been a straight up fight to see who could best the other but I guess Garmon was too obsessed with coming first? Dunno why 0utbreak agreed to that TBH, they should have gone for the gold.

M8 its wasnt intentional dont you know?

[Lallante]

CCP's "Don't respond, respond shit, ban later. Oh and PL and RVB will get different treatment so they know we are still mad" is a dick move.

also: I like how the retards in this thread are assuming that if it was one corp, both parties known "all setups, all tactics and all theorycrafting". Because, god-forbid that thought, I can't really imagine any of this shining knights of e-honoure holding some secrets from each other or having something up their sleeves for the time they meet. That would be totally unevelike, rite?

e: OTOH after last year, when it was clear CPP was mad, I would be reluctant to even practice together. Just in case. But thats me, having no balls and shit.

How dare CCP act differently in completely different circumstances?

How dare CCP take into account past actions and evident intentions?

CCP should just apply all rules mindlessly.

[blaad]

How dare CCP take into account past actions and evident intentions?


TMA mind reading. Do I recall correctly you are a lawyer? Because that would take it from funny to hilarious territory.

[Intigo]

How dare CCP take into account past actions and evident intentions?


TMA mind reading. Do I recall correctly you are a lawyer? Because that would take it from funny to hilarious territory.

He's trolling and taking the side that will get him the most arguments. He always does this. Hence the "NO BITING" picture.

[Duncan]

While i actually REALLY dislike what ccp done here, Intigo stop bullshiting that last year final was a mistake. You did it on purpose because you thought it would be a good laugh, the problem is ccp got their panties in the twist and made sure you will pay for any mistake you do this year. And claiming it was unintentional last year only makes you look childish.

As for hundreds of hours comments, well setting up and moving everything doesn't take that long but each practice can and usually takes more then a couple of hours. Combine that with almost daily practices for a couple of months and you're quickly in the hundreds of hours territory.

wat? I was THERE listening, I know that it wasn't intentional that it looked like utter fucking shite

christ Zeekar

How do you unintentionally deactivate your guns/tank and let the other team win?

How do you unintentionally fight what is supposed to be a competative match from the same TS?

How do you unintentionally collude as to what ships both sides will be bringing to a match in a tourney where predicting and countering the opponents set ups is 90% of victory?

The only part that was unintentional is that it was so fucking obvious to those watching that the match was thrown. You wanted a close match, perhaps, but there was always a pre-determined outcome. Nothing unintentional about that.

A close match that is entertaining to watch is what everyone wanted to see. That is what we intended to provide. That is what people were disappointed they didn't see.

No one cared about a fight being predetermined in any tournament until it came packaged with a match that wasn't entertaining. Entertaining matches is all that CCP claimed to want, that is what we tried and failed to deliver.

So yes, it was unintentional.

[Traxio Nacho]

How dare CCP take into account past actions and evident intentions?


TMA mind reading. Do I recall correctly you are a lawyer? Because that would take it from funny to hilarious territory.

Although Lall is doing his usual trolling I would guess the "evident intentions" relates to the fact both of the teams had joined one corp on SiSi.

[Lallante]

While i actually REALLY dislike what ccp done here, Intigo stop bullshiting that last year final was a mistake. You did it on purpose because you thought it would be a good laugh, the problem is ccp got their panties in the twist and made sure you will pay for any mistake you do this year. And claiming it was unintentional last year only makes you look childish.

As for hundreds of hours comments, well setting up and moving everything doesn't take that long but each practice can and usually takes more then a couple of hours. Combine that with almost daily practices for a couple of months and you're quickly in the hundreds of hours territory.

wat? I was THERE listening, I know that it wasn't intentional that it looked like utter fucking shite

christ Zeekar

How do you unintentionally deactivate your guns/tank and let the other team win?

How do you unintentionally fight what is supposed to be a competative match from the same TS?

How do you unintentionally collude as to what ships both sides will be bringing to a match in a tourney where predicting and countering the opponents set ups is 90% of victory?

The only part that was unintentional is that it was so fucking obvious to those watching that the match was thrown. You wanted a close match, perhaps, but there was always a pre-determined outcome. Nothing unintentional about that.

A close match that is entertaining to watch is what everyone wanted to see. That is what we intended to provide. That is what people were disappointed they didn't see.

No one cared about a fight being predetermined in any tournament until it came packaged with a match that wasn't entertaining. Entertaining matches is all that CCP claimed to want, that is what we tried and failed to deliver.

So yes, it was unintentional.


"I'm sorry you found out I was cheating on you"



Seriously you are so clueless.

[Nartek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHvsvAAoBWg&feature=relmfu

Just in case anyone's memory needs to be refreshed...

What you did last year was totally within the rules, even though it looked like utter PR shit. Because of that fact (it was within the rules) CCP gave you it a pass, and ate the shit sandwich.

This year, and if I recall, using that clusterfuck of a final as an example, CCP changed the rules to enhance the end-product. It was a set of rules that more or less was there to intentionally stamp out what happened the year before.

RvB is a different scenario, and even if CCP had allowed them to enter as both Red and Blue (instead of purple); the finale of those two teams would have been significantly less shitty than the product produced in AT9. Regardless, CCP came down with some common sense, and applied it.

Hydra/Outbreak getting excluded/banned from AT for colluding is a completely different thing. The same two teams that colluded the year prior (and your either not as informed as you should be, or simply a liar if you say "oh, it wasn't intentional; we didn't really intend to lose our ENTIRE FUCKING TEAM to the DPS of one vindicator after smashing the DPS with nary a single ship-loss...the entire DPS output of the other team")... are working together again. You know what? It looks like shit, smells like shit, and probably is shit. And if CCP allowed it, they'd have the same shit they came up with rules to prevent this year.

And to be honest, it sounds like CCP is tired of your shit.

I don't see it as a big loss. People watch the AT for the fights. If they wanted to watch it for the meta, they'd do the whole fucking thing on the forums instead.

You won't be missed this year.

Re: We wanted to make the match close: Zerathrustra, or whomever the Z guy was in the Sleipnir. Around 11 minutes into the fight. No visible tank mods active, no guns active. Claymore also looks like it has one gun active.

Grow up and take your lumps. CCP spends months setting this up. You made it look like shit. You spent months practicing. CCP treated you like shit. Sounds like you both get to walk away even.

[Lallante]

Intigo is a retard who has somehow managed to convince himself that the only thing they did wrong last year was make the fixed match "obvious".

[blaad]

Lets shit this thread up some more by discussing our feelings about last year final.

+1

[Lallante]

Lets shit this thread up some more by discussing our feelings about last year final.

+1

You are right, the sole reason for the introduction of a new rule is completely irrelevant to a discussion of how it is implemented.

[Smuggo]

I'm not really sure why Hydra seem to think that a genuine fight with both sides trying to win wouldn't be entertaining... particularly as opposed to the worst and most unrealistic staged battle imaginable.

Watching two sides who are obviously very competent giving their all to try and come out on top would be entertaining by definition no?

[Shiroi Okami]

I'm not really sure why Hydra seem to think that a genuine fight with both sides trying to win wouldn't be entertaining... particularly as opposed to the worst and most unrealistic staged battle imaginable.

Watching two sides who are obviously very competent giving their all to try and come out on top would be entertaining by definition no?

That's what it was intended to be, and in testing the vindi setup had trounced the minrush, but in the actual fight due to the fact everyone was tired/elated/drunk the minrush side was actually winning. Zara made the call to let Hydra win because he wanted garmon to have that honour and hence the clusterfuck that was the final.

Also lallante is a retard, nbs

[Ruri]

The shit Hydra/0utbreak pulled off last tourney was impressive as fuck, and in it's own way the stupid final match illustrated one of the great truths of Eve, that the "meta" game is every bit as real and oft-times more important than the "real" game.

However, watching the same shit go down twice would be boring as fuck. I can see why CCP would say "sorry boys, we don't want a repeat," as it would likely depress interest in the tournament as a whole. Maybe only banning one team would have been better, and that's a shitty random card to draw if yours come up but there are also plenty of alliances who want to participate and are now staring at a ludicrously expensive (for some) auction bid because they were unlucky too. I dunno. I'm sad that good players got screwed out of the competition, but I'm glad there's not the potential for another hugely embarassing cockup this year.

[Jade Constantine]

Last year's final was about the most embarrassing cringeworthy bullshit in the history of the tournament. Everyone who tuned in had their time wasted watching a teary circle-jerk between metagaming primadonnas while the commentators had the unenviable task of somehow avoiding the words "well this is utter shit" on live stream. Nvida was a major advertising sponsor I seem to remember, imagine the looks between their rep and the CCP management as players took the epic piss out of their alliance format.

Frankly I was astonished that CCP didn't take action last year against the teams involved, but publishing the rules in advance including the b-team rule they gave strong early notice that no bullshit would be tolerated this year.

Garmon and crew appear to have convinced themselves that somehow last years final wasn't a disaster for all involved with the official PR.
CCP appear to have completely run out of patience for bullshit.


Roll on an alliance tournament decided by actual fighting in spaceships rather than gaming the tournament format.

[The Monkeysphere]

Last year's final was about the most embarrassing cringeworthy bullshit in the history of the tournament. Everyone who tuned in had their time wasted watching a teary circle-jerk between metagaming primadonnas while the commentators had the unenviable task of somehow avoiding the words "well this is utter shit" on life stream. Nvida was a major advertising sponsor I seem to remember, imagine the looks between their rep and the CCP management as players took the epic piss out of their alliance format.

Frankly I was astonished that CCP didn't take action last year against the teams involved, but publishing the rules in advance including the b-team rule they gave strong early notice that no bullshit would be tolerated this year.

Garmon and crew appear to have convinced themselves that somehow last years final wasn't a disaster for all involved with the official PR.
CCP appear to have completely run out of patience for bullshit.


Roll on an alliance tournament decided by actual fighting in spaceships rather than gaming the tournament format.

Oh shut up, your shitty alliance has never produced anything of worth. Beating BOB is hardly a feat, the moment other people had isk as well they were worthless both in and out of tourney.

Hydra and OB overplayed everyone else in last year's tourney - v0v about the final really. IMO it wasn't a giant "fuck you" to CCP (though there hasn't been a time where CCP doesn't deserve a giant "fuck you"), it was a giant "fuck you, you are shit" to every other alliance competing. Alliances that they had either beaten in the tourney or via tourney-related metagame (which is always a feat in itself which shittier competitors don't really realize) - like in the case of PL.

:ccp:

[KalRyan]

The tears coming from Hydra/OB and their fanbois are awesome.

You're all retards of the highest level if you thought completely ignoring what you did last year and doing the -exact same thing- even after CCP set up a rule to prevent what you did last year wasn't going to result in exactly this treatment.

[Jade Constantine]

Last year's final was about the most embarrassing cringeworthy bullshit in the history of the tournament. Everyone who tuned in had their time wasted watching a teary circle-jerk between metagaming primadonnas while the commentators had the unenviable task of somehow avoiding the words "well this is utter shit" on life stream. Nvida was a major advertising sponsor I seem to remember, imagine the looks between their rep and the CCP management as players took the epic piss out of their alliance format.

Frankly I was astonished that CCP didn't take action last year against the teams involved, but publishing the rules in advance including the b-team rule they gave strong early notice that no bullshit would be tolerated this year.

Garmon and crew appear to have convinced themselves that somehow last years final wasn't a disaster for all involved with the official PR.
CCP appear to have completely run out of patience for bullshit.


Roll on an alliance tournament decided by actual fighting in spaceships rather than gaming the tournament format.

Oh shut up, your shitty alliance has never produced anything of worth. Beating BOB is hardly a feat, the moment other people had isk as well they were worthless both in and out of tourney.

Hydra and OB overplayed everyone else in last year's tourney - v0v about the final really. IMO it wasn't a giant "fuck you" to CCP (though there hasn't been a time where CCP doesn't deserve a giant "fuck you"), it was a giant "fuck you, you are shit" to every other alliance competing. Alliances that they had either beaten in the tourney or via tourney-related metagame (which is always a feat in itself which shittier competitors don't really realize) - like in the case of PL.

:ccp:

Either trolling or extremely stupid. I don't really care which :)

[filingo]

well personally i cant wait to see fights between made up alliances and inept carebear blobbers in the tourney

[Varcaus]

well personally i cant wait to see fights between made up alliances and inept carebear blobbers in the tourney

Still better than last years final.

[filingo]

well personally i cant wait to see fights between made up alliances and inept carebear blobbers in the tourney

Still better than last years final.

http://www.mattmcloone.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/MSM.091224_014.jpg

[KalRyan]

well personally i cant wait to see fights between made up alliances and inept carebear blobbers in the tourney

Still better than last years final.

Truff.

[Beardponderer]

Frankly I was astonished that CCP didn't take action last year against the teams involved, but publishing the rules in advance including the b-team rule they gave strong early notice that no bullshit would be tolerated this year.

The b-team rule states that the backup teams are removed and not the primary team. There is nothing stating testing and intel-sharing between two close alliances can't be done. If it was always the CCP AT team's intent to remove OB and HYDRA from the tournament why not do it before testing begins? Because they wanted to give them a chance to work alone in the tournament? They showed no intent of doing otherwise unless you count testing together in which case for fuck sake say it can't be done and don't just ignore them.


Garmon and crew appear to have convinced themselves that somehow last years final wasn't a disaster for all involved with the official PR.


What? They said themselves their intent for the final went completely wrong and it wasn't what they wanted.

[Leboe]

outbreak v darkside was the final and it WAS a good match.

[Varcaus]

outbreak v darkside was the final and it WAS a good match.

Confirming

[Smuggo]

outbreak v darkside was the final and it WAS a good match.

Confirming

CCCCC
C
C
CCCCC

[Spartan Dax]

The short story on the final fight in AT IX is; The vindicator team always beat out the sleipner team. So the vindicator team decided to only shoot with half their guns and the sleipner team took off ewar and ECCM and fitted more tank instead. And no one told each other. CCP aren't the only ones bad at communicating. So bad. So bad.

[KalRyan]

Healthy doses of schadenfreud being enjoyed ITT.

[Mfume]

man, on one hand, it's arbitrary and unfair the both hydra and outbreak have been barred from competiting. on the other hand, im not really surprised that CCP did it, just that they tried to justify it beyond "P.S. fuck you both"

[Lorkin Desal]

Not to mention 2 emails to the EveTV address went completely unanswered and ignored - the only response we got from CCP told us we were fine, everything else was ignored.



this is probably the worst part of it. He even acknowledged having a bunch of emails to sort through.




Fielding 24 people for a practice isn't easy for everyone. I don't even care about the corps thing to ease logistics, maybe CCP should make wormholes less shit.

Clearly you arnt very good at wornholes. QQ some more?

Sent from my HTC Vision

[Lallante]

Frankly I was astonished that CCP didn't take action last year against the teams involved, but publishing the rules in advance including the b-team rule they gave strong early notice that no bullshit would be tolerated this year.

The b-team rule states that the backup teams are removed and not the primary team. There is nothing stating testing and intel-sharing between two close alliances can't be done. If it was always the CCP AT team's intent to remove OB and HYDRA from the tournament why not do it before testing begins? Because they wanted to give them a chance to work alone in the tournament? They showed no intent of doing otherwise unless you count testing together in which case for fuck sake say it can't be done and don't just ignore them.


Garmon and crew appear to have convinced themselves that somehow last years final wasn't a disaster for all involved with the official PR.


What? They said themselves their intent for the final went completely wrong and it wasn't what they wanted.

Trolling?

[Rynnik]

it's arbitrary and unfair the both hydra and outbreak have been barred from competiting.

Definitely arbitrary and unfair, but it sure as fuck isn't suprising.

I just can't get over the 'meta masters' not seeing this coming from a million miles away. Seriously guys...

[Tyrus Tenebros]

I guess if the tournament has turned in to who can produce the most tears through metagaming, I'm going to say so far we're looking at CCP Victor.

Hydra cries more than a ganked hulk pilot

[Lallante]

it's arbitrary and unfair the both hydra and outbreak have been barred from competiting.

Definitely arbitrary and unfair, but it sure as fuck isn't suprising.

I just can't get over the 'meta masters' not seeing this coming from a million miles away. Seriously guys...

Arbitrary? A little. Unfair? Nah

[KalRyan]

I guess if the tournament has turned in to who can produce the most tears through metagaming, I'm going to say so far we're looking at CCP Victor.

Hydra cries more than a ganked hulk pilot

'Real pvpers' always do when things don't go their way.

[ROX Genghis]

Maybe this is all for the best. Now Hydra can properly concentrate on the eve-is-easy ATX team.

[Rans]

Advertise the game as a cold, hostile, treacherous environment where spying, backstabbing and metagaming are what makes you win, encourage this image towards your game for years.

Have 2 two player alliances metagame so well they basically make a fool of your company.

BE MAD

[KalRyan]

Advertise the game as a cold, hostile, treacherous environment where spying, backstabbing and metagaming are what makes you win, encourage this image towards your game for years.

Have 2 two player alliances metagame so well they basically make a fool of your company.

BE MAD

Get even when banning those two alliances from tournament following year for being stupid enough to train together again. Collect tears of those alliances.

vOv

[Intigo]

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113351&find=unread

supposedly a clarification by CCP

clarifies nothing, ignores the fact that emails were sent, Duncans thread on that was locked by Navigator

[Rans]

Well clarifications are quiet pointless right now, you guys have to get used to the idea that you're out of the tournament.

[KalRyan]

“No, as long as those alliances are not working for the same team, so to speak. If we find out that these 2 alliances are pretty much the same people, but created a second alliance to try and stack the deck then both will be removed.”

That's pretty clear to me. You guys were -obviously- working as one team. What the GM said in the petition never gave you an excuse to train and work together.

Also, this:

One would assume that were I someone with the knowledge that special rules were drafted specifically because of how I gamed a system I’d be extra careful about it. Instead of doing so the players in this instance chose to engage in the exact same behavior and given that the result last year was absolutely unacceptable to us we have no other choice but to enforce the rule we wrote specifically to deal with this exact specific scenario.

[Intigo]

“No, as long as those alliances are not working for the same team, so to speak. If we find out that these 2 alliances are pretty much the same people, but created a second alliance to try and stack the deck then both will be removed.”

That's pretty clear to me. You guys were -obviously- working as one team. What the GM said in the petition never gave you an excuse to train and work together.

Also, this:

One would assume that were I someone with the knowledge that special rules were drafted specifically because of how I gamed a system I’d be extra careful about it. Instead of doing so the players in this instance chose to engage in the exact same behavior and given that the result last year was absolutely unacceptable to us we have no other choice but to enforce the rule we wrote specifically to deal with this exact specific scenario.

How were we obviously working as one team!? We practiced together so both teams were able to get practice in and we kept setups secret from each other IN CASE WE MET EACH OTHER!

It was mutually beneficial for both teams but had nothing to do with colluding or working as a ~single entity~

[KalRyan]

“No, as long as those alliances are not working for the same team, so to speak. If we find out that these 2 alliances are pretty much the same people, but created a second alliance to try and stack the deck then both will be removed.”

That's pretty clear to me. You guys were -obviously- working as one team. What the GM said in the petition never gave you an excuse to train and work together.

Also, this:

One would assume that were I someone with the knowledge that special rules were drafted specifically because of how I gamed a system I’d be extra careful about it. Instead of doing so the players in this instance chose to engage in the exact same behavior and given that the result last year was absolutely unacceptable to us we have no other choice but to enforce the rule we wrote specifically to deal with this exact specific scenario.

How were we obviously working as one team!? We practiced together so both teams were able to get practice in and we kept setups secret from each other IN CASE WE MET EACH OTHER!

It was mutually beneficial for both teams but had nothing to do with colluding or working as a ~single entity~

And why should anyone believe a word of this after last year? Maybe you guys should have been smarter and either not entered both alliances and/or found someone else to test with instead of pushing your luck after CCP SPECIFICALLY creates a rule to stop what you did last year from happening again?

[Rynnik]

How were we obviously working as one team!? We practiced together so both teams were able to get practice in and we kept setups secret from each other IN CASE WE MET EACH OTHER!

Like last year?

Curious if you really believe you are making a reasonable point or if you are just trying to curry favour/fight the good fight/troll since nothing else is left?

[Intigo]

How were we obviously working as one team!? We practiced together so both teams were able to get practice in and we kept setups secret from each other IN CASE WE MET EACH OTHER!

Like last year?

Curious if you really believe you are making a reasonable point or if you are just trying to curry favour/fight the good fight/troll since nothing else is left?

No, nothing like last year.

[Rynnik]

How were we obviously working as one team!? We practiced together so both teams were able to get practice in and we kept setups secret from each other IN CASE WE MET EACH OTHER!

Like last year?

Curious if you really believe you are making a reasonable point or if you are just trying to curry favour/fight the good fight/troll since nothing else is left?

No, nothing like last year.

Oh, well if you had just said that up front...

...

...

You get why that doesn't wash, right?

[KalRyan]

How were we obviously working as one team!? We practiced together so both teams were able to get practice in and we kept setups secret from each other IN CASE WE MET EACH OTHER!

Like last year?

Curious if you really believe you are making a reasonable point or if you are just trying to curry favour/fight the good fight/troll since nothing else is left?

No, nothing like last year.

You're just trolling now.... right?

[Krugerrand]

I didn't realise 0utbreak was even a big alliance

[Raimo]

Hehe see:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113251

http://eve-search.com/thread/113251-1

(or http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.52.15%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.52.27%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.52.34%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.53.04%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.53.11%20.png)

[KalRyan]

Hehe see:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113251

http://eve-search.com/thread/113251-1

(or http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.52.15%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.52.27%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.52.34%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.53.04%20.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153442/Eve/PICCIES/LolCCP/Screen%20shot%202012-05-25%20at%206.53.11%20.png)

That's a lot of :tinfoil: m8.. u mad?

[Raimo]

I wouldn't have been able to even participate this year except for a few practices, but sure

[Raivi]

I have no idea why they're deleting posts as that's just gonna make people more paranoid and serves no purpose.

But nothing they deleted is even a problem. Somebody accusing them of rigging the hat by (presumably) not putting the names of the people being disqualified into it. Sreegs says he doesn't know what they're talking about.

Why they would even want to delete that I have no idea. :ccp:

[KalRyan]

I have no idea why they're deleting posts as that's just gonna make people more paranoid and serves no purpose.

But nothing they deleted is even a problem. Somebody accusing them of rigging the hat by (presumably) not putting the names of the people being disqualified into it. Sreegs says he doesn't know what they're talking about.

Why they would even want to delete that I have no idea. :ccp:

My guess is because it's useless shit-stirring.

[Raimo]

I have no idea why they're deleting posts as that's just gonna make people more paranoid and serves no purpose.

But nothing they deleted is even a problem. Somebody accusing them of rigging the hat by (presumably) not putting the names of the people being disqualified into it. Sreegs says he doesn't know what they're talking about.

Why they would even want to delete that I have no idea. :ccp:

Apparently the char asking about is was also forum banned, so I guess he was right? (I wouldn't know) :P

[Raivi]

I mean forum ban him if you want, lock the thread but deleting posts that aren't NSFW is pointless. Like Raimo showed they still exist for people to see and it just draws more attention.

/o\

Not that it really makes any difference but still.

[Krugerrand]

Who knows? After all the shit CCP have pulled off over the past several years I don't have any faith in them anymore.

[Lallante]

In the Eve-O threads now various Outbreak and Hydra guys are claiming they have contacted the gaming press, Sony etc.

This is so fucking hilarious. You ignored a rule specifically designed to prevent what you were doing with obvious consequences.

[KalRyan]

Outbreak/Hydra are SUPER FUCKING MAD. INTERNET SPACESHIPS ARE V. SERIOUS.

Hey guys? Next time don't break the fucking rules.

[KalRyan]

I have no idea why they're deleting posts as that's just gonna make people more paranoid and serves no purpose.

But nothing they deleted is even a problem. Somebody accusing them of rigging the hat by (presumably) not putting the names of the people being disqualified into it. Sreegs says he doesn't know what they're talking about.

Why they would even want to delete that I have no idea. :ccp:

Apparently the char asking about is was also forum banned, so I guess he was right? (I wouldn't know) :P

Yes, clearly they banned him because :conspiracy theory is correct: and not because he's being a useless shit-stirrer.

[Lallante]

I have no idea why they're deleting posts as that's just gonna make people more paranoid and serves no purpose.

But nothing they deleted is even a problem. Somebody accusing them of rigging the hat by (presumably) not putting the names of the people being disqualified into it. Sreegs says he doesn't know what they're talking about.

Why they would even want to delete that I have no idea. :ccp:

Apparently the char asking about is was also forum banned, so I guess he was right? (I wouldn't know) :P

Right about what? All he was saying is that banning Hydra, PL and Outbreak amounts to "fixing" the draw.

[Ituralde]

I think its worth mentioning that if you two had a real match for the final and just colluded on the prizes, none of this would have happened.

I think that the punishment is being handed down for a crime that doesn't match the rule however, and is inconsistent with other applications of the rule.

Won't matter anyways because the resolution is going to be 'Hey we dragged this out long enough so that we didn't let you fucks bid on a spot' with maybe an 'oops maybe that was too harsh~ sorry we fucked you(but we really don't like you anyways)' at the end.

[Smuggo]

Serious space tears being shed over this. Calm it down guys, there's always AT XI.

[Lallante]

CCP doctored the image of soundwave throwing a football - you can tell from the pixellation around his head and hands and from this old photo of him throwing a baseball.

[Lallante]

Serious space tears being shed over this. Calm it down guys, there's always AT XI.

Hopefully all of these guys have left eve by then. Most of them could really do with chillaxing and gaining some perspective.

Alternatively they can nurse their victim complex and spam the forums for the year.

[Krugerrand]

Outbreak/Hydra are SUPER FUCKING MAD. INTERNET SPACESHIPS ARE V. SERIOUS.

Hey guys? Next time don't break the fucking rules.

Rule was ambiguous. This was done on purpose but CCP would have found an excuse to ban us one way or another. CCP entire attitude to events, including their responses (or lack of at times) both before us being banned and after are laughable.

Honestly I don't really care much, Krugs account was active for AT10 only, so now I got no reason to play anymore \o/ shame I only just put a 60d ETC on it :/

I don't particularly like being called an alt alliance.

[KalRyan]

Outbreak/Hydra are SUPER FUCKING MAD. INTERNET SPACESHIPS ARE V. SERIOUS.

Hey guys? Next time don't break the fucking rules.

Rule was ambiguous.


No, it really wasn't. If it was me, I would have found someone else to train with/against than the same people I colluded with to fix the tournament last year.

[Maromi]

Advertise the game as a cold, hostile, treacherous environment where spying, backstabbing and metagaming are what makes you win, encourage this image towards your game for years.

Have 2 two player alliances metagame so well they basically make a fool of your company.

BE MAD

CCP let themselves be made a fool of. If there was a "PR Fuckup" it was at CCP's end, in that they failed to correctly exploit the situation to advertise the core selling point of the game, which is that it's a sandbox in a way no other game ever has been. I personally think it's incorrect to blame players for living up to and exemplifying EVE's core ideal, and I think letting yourself be tricked by CCP into blaming them is somewhat naive.

When "Greed Was Good" and players rioted, why did the media (including non-game media) explode with coverage of it? Because EVE is a unique sandbox - one so unique that CCP's own customer base can wield it against them! Now that...that was a situation carrying a lot more significance and economic weight than some tournament final and some Nvidia sponsorship dollars (looking at you, Jade).

When Goonswarm pillaged Jita, CCP was the first and loudest to praise the sandbox! They couldn't praise it enough!

Yet when it turns "ugly"...when it has the potential to embarrass them, and they can find some way (unlike the Jita riots) to suppress it without alienating their customer base, they go right ahead and kill it? That's their first reaction?? It makes me really uneasy. It suggests to me that they only believe in the sandbox so long as it benefits their bottom line. It suggests a lack of integrity at a fundamental level, and even more sadly/worryingly, a loss of the visionary boldness that made this company what it is today.

To me, the sandbox is similar to the ideal of freedom of speech. It's an ugly thing sometimes, but worth protecting even in those ugly moments because it's such a cornerstone. Some seem to be okay with the notion of suspending it in the name of advertising dollars or viewer counts. They're welcome to their opinion, of course, but I can't agree myself. I think it's a betrayal of what EVE's really about...and I think undermining it over such things could represent a really raw deal for us all (players and devs alike) in the long-term because it enables and encourages CCP to be selective about when and where the sandbox applies, and over such small things like a fleeting tournament viewer count or a bag of dollar bills. I think the sandbox is worth a lot more.

Just my opinion, of course, but I think argument over whether or not last year's tournament final was "intended" or not is ultimately a less important discussion than the one about maintaining the integrity of EVE's most sacred concept - the sandbox.

But what do I know...

[Ituralde]

Outbreak/Hydra are SUPER FUCKING MAD. INTERNET SPACESHIPS ARE V. SERIOUS.

Hey guys? Next time don't break the fucking rules.

Rule was ambiguous.


No, it really wasn't. If it was me, I would have found someone else to train with/against than the same people I colluded with to fix the tournament last year.

This is a good point. This rule was OBVIOUSLY targeted at you two. Going for anything that looks like a repeat performance was all kinds of a bad idea.

[Krugerrand]

Yes, lets train with some retards who don't have a fucking clue about this game. I'd probably care less if CCP followed this rule fairly across the entire AT entry, but they haven't. They just found some bullshit excuse to differentiate it and ignored all attempts we made to get clarification.

CCP AT devs attitude from the outset has been childish. They were intent in whatever manner to get us out of this tournament but didn't have the balls to state so from the offset. But well ::ccp:

[Krugerrand]

Advertise the game as a cold, hostile, treacherous environment where spying, backstabbing and metagaming are what makes you win, encourage this image towards your game for years.

Have 2 two player alliances metagame so well they basically make a fool of your company.

BE MAD

CCP let themselves be made a fool of. If there was a "PR Fuckup" it was at CCP's end, in that they failed to correctly exploit the situation to advertise the core selling point of the game, which is that it's a sandbox in a way no other game ever has been. I personally think it's incorrect to blame players for living up to and exemplifying EVE's core ideal, and I think letting yourself be tricked by CCP into blaming them is somewhat naive.

When "Greed Was Good" and players rioted, why did the media (including non-game media) explode with coverage of it? Because EVE is a unique sandbox - one so unique that CCP's own customer base can wield it against them! Now that...that was a situation carrying a lot more significance and economic weight than some tournament final and some Nvidia sponsorship dollars (looking at you, Jade).

When Goonswarm pillaged Jita, CCP was the first and loudest to praise the sandbox! They couldn't praise it enough!

Yet when it turns "ugly"...when it has the potential to embarrass them, and they can find some way (unlike the Jita riots) to suppress it without alienating their customer base, they go right ahead and kill it? That's their first reaction?? It makes me really uneasy. It suggests to me that they only believe in the sandbox so long as it benefits their bottom line. It suggests a lack of integrity at a fundamental level, and even more sadly/worryingly, a loss of the visionary boldness that made this company what it is today.

To me, the sandbox is similar to the ideal of freedom of speech. It's an ugly thing sometimes, but worth protecting even in those ugly moments because it's such a cornerstone. Some seem to be okay with the notion of suspending it in the name of advertising dollars or viewer counts. They're welcome to their opinion, of course, but I can't agree myself. I think it's a betrayal of what EVE's really about...and I think undermining it over such things could represent a really raw deal for us all (players and devs alike) in the long-term because it enables and encourages CCP to be selective about when and where the sandbox applies, and over such small things like a fleeting tournament viewer count or a bag of dollar bills. I think the sandbox is worth a lot more.

Just my opinion, of course, but I think argument over whether or not last year's tournament final was "intended" or not is ultimately a less important discussion than the one about maintaining the integrity of EVE's most sacred concept - the sandbox.

But what do I know...

Quoted because quality.

[roigon]

Lol at the idea that the random team selection is rigged. Because you know, it's obvious that CCP takes the rich alliances out of the hat so they can get more PLEX during the bidding. lol (I'd make a pretty good tinfoil-hat wearer if I wasn't sane)

Although I would like the random selection to be more transparent, if only to please my OCD for having perfect systems.
Yes I demand a 16 hour uncut single-take video of a CCP employee printing and cutting out all the slips, putting them in the hat, and starting the selection process keeping the hat in view at all time, afterwards the remaining slips should be put out on a table while the camera keeps all slips in view for the entire time. Eating of slips of paper should also be forbidden, for it is destroying evidence. But it seems they've already taken steps to prevent that by printing non-tasty paper.

The slips should then be sealed on camera and stored away for at least 7 years in case we would want a re-count.

[rojomojo915]

Yes, lets train with some retards who don't have a fucking clue about this game. I'd probably care less if CCP followed this rule fairly across the entire AT entry, but they haven't. They just found some bullshit excuse to differentiate it and ignored all attempts we made to get clarification.

CCP AT devs attitude from the outset has been childish. But well ::ccp::

You guys could of trained together just the same being in 2 separate alliances. Yes, it would of been more work, but wouldn't you want to alleviate any doubt from the CCP that the same shenanigans from last year wouldn't happen again?

[KalRyan]

Just my opinion, of course, but I think argument over whether or not last year's tournament final was "intended" or not is ultimately a less important discussion than the one about maintaining the integrity of EVE's most sacred concept - the sandbox.

But what do I know...

Because a tournament with a fixed set of pre-published rules that everyone has to follow in an inaccessible part of space with a strict point system for what ships can be brought and a fixed maximum of players per team is definitely sandbox'y..

AT has never been about the sandbox. OB/HYD got away with it last year. CCP said "Welp, you got us good." and implented new rules this year. Now the same people that colluded last year are whining because the new rules got applied to them?

WELP.

[KalRyan]

Outbreak/Hydra: Games the system to collude to fix AT IX

CCP: Changes rules so same thing doesn't happen next time.

Outbreak/Hydra: Get mad that CCP applies rule when it looks like same guys that gamed system last year are doing it again.

[Krugerrand]

Yes, lets train with some retards who don't have a fucking clue about this game. I'd probably care less if CCP followed this rule fairly across the entire AT entry, but they haven't. They just found some bullshit excuse to differentiate it and ignored all attempts we made to get clarification.

CCP AT devs attitude from the outset has been childish. But well ::ccp::

You guys could of trained together just the same being in 2 separate alliances. Yes, it would of been more work, but wouldn't you want to alleviate any doubt from the CCP that the same shenanigans from last year wouldn't happen again?

You honestly think CCP wouldn't have still used the excuse that we were training together as a means to ban us? This was CCPs intent from the start, we were never going to be allowed to compete.

EDIT: Hey Kal did you lose some ISK on the final or something?

[KalRyan]

Nope. I don't bet on the AT.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Yes, lets train with some retards who don't have a fucking clue about this game. I'd probably care less if CCP followed this rule fairly across the entire AT entry, but they haven't. They just found some bullshit excuse to differentiate it and ignored all attempts we made to get clarification.

CCP AT devs attitude from the outset has been childish. But well ::ccp::

You guys could of trained together just the same being in 2 separate alliances. Yes, it would of been more work, but wouldn't you want to alleviate any doubt from the CCP that the same shenanigans from last year wouldn't happen again?

You honestly think CCP wouldn't have still used the excuse that we were training together as a means to ban us? This was CCPs intent from the start, we were never going to be allowed to compete.

EDIT: Hey Kal did you lose some ISK on the final or something?lol That argument that they were just waiting to ban you for anything is horse shit given that you GAVE them a banhammer and told them to swing it at you.

What a conspiracy theory

[Intigo]

Just my opinion, of course, but I think argument over whether or not last year's tournament final was "intended" or not is ultimately a less important discussion than the one about maintaining the integrity of EVE's most sacred concept - the sandbox.

But what do I know...

Because a tournament with a fixed set of pre-published rules that everyone has to follow in an inaccessible part of space with a strict point system for what ships can be brought and a fixed maximum of players per team is definitely sandbox'y..

AT has never been about the sandbox. OB/HYD got away with it last year. CCP said "Welp, you got us good." and implented new rules this year. Now the same people that colluded last year are whining because the new rules got applied to them?

WELP.

"New rules" -> incredibly vague rules that were repeatedly ignored (2 or more emails were sent, not a single answer was received) when asked for clarification and were applied differently on a case to case basis.

Other Alliances have practiced together too, but putting people in the same corp is HERESY.

[Ituralde]

There is some point to that, allowing for some player metagaming as a selling point of the tourney.

But if you had two gladiators in the arena that didn't want to fight each other seriously back in ancient rome, what would have happened? The powers that be would have had them both executed. Or maybe they'd open up the cages and sick a couple hungry tigers on them.

Maybe the correct response was to sick a bunch of angry NPCs on the field to nuke the participants making a mockery of the event.

The sad story for you guys is this - there were two simple things you could have done to not have this happen:

1. Have a serious fight for the final last round
2. Found other practice buddies for this go-around.

It's honestly on you to make a clean break from any bad behavior. Its painfully obvious that the rule was targeting Hydra and Outbreak when it was added for this tourney. Everyone knew it. Teaming back up was - and yes, this isnt fair - asking CCP to throw the book at you.

This didn't come out of nowhere.

You had warning.

You chose to skirt the line. They judged you stepped out. There is no video replay, and no coach's challenge.

Is it fair? No.

Does your arrangement look a whole lot like last year? Absolutely, down to the wormhole sharing and everything. It's not fair, but the perceptions were close enough that given how you guys fucked the last final, I don't blame them for not wanting to take a second chance.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Just my opinion, of course, but I think argument over whether or not last year's tournament final was "intended" or not is ultimately a less important discussion than the one about maintaining the integrity of EVE's most sacred concept - the sandbox.

But what do I know...

Because a tournament with a fixed set of pre-published rules that everyone has to follow in an inaccessible part of space with a strict point system for what ships can be brought and a fixed maximum of players per team is definitely sandbox'y..

AT has never been about the sandbox. OB/HYD got away with it last year. CCP said "Welp, you got us good." and implented new rules this year. Now the same people that colluded last year are whining because the new rules got applied to them?

WELP.

"New rules" -> incredibly vague rules that were repeatedly ignored (2 or more emails were sent, not a single answer was received) when asked for clarification and were applied differently on a case to case basis.

Other Alliances have practiced together too, but putting people in the same corp is HERESY.
Wrong. Being the guys who caused the rules in the first place makes you susceptible to it.

Inb4 hydra starts posting about how they still won cause so many people got mad on forums.

Also inb4 a mail between hydra and outbreak surfaces detailing how they planned to work together again

[Ituralde]

Yes, lets train with some retards who don't have a fucking clue about this game. I'd probably care less if CCP followed this rule fairly across the entire AT entry, but they haven't. They just found some bullshit excuse to differentiate it and ignored all attempts we made to get clarification.

CCP AT devs attitude from the outset has been childish. But well ::ccp::

You guys could of trained together just the same being in 2 separate alliances. Yes, it would of been more work, but wouldn't you want to alleviate any doubt from the CCP that the same shenanigans from last year wouldn't happen again?

You honestly think CCP wouldn't have still used the excuse that we were training together as a means to ban us? This was CCPs intent from the start, we were never going to be allowed to compete.

EDIT: Hey Kal did you lose some ISK on the final or something?

Do you seriously think that you'd have been banned if you found another practice partner?

[Hel OWeen]

Other Alliances have practiced together just fine. Are the rules different for us? Are they different just because we joined a single corp?

Yes - they didn't ruin last year's final. Remember: this is EVE - never forget, never forgive.

I stopped playing EVE before last year's tournament, so I souldn't care less. But ever since I started playing EVE back in 2006, the AT was the highlight of the year for me personally. And man, was I pissed last year ...

You trolled CCP last year ...


Not to mention 2 emails to the EveTV address went completely unanswered and ignored - the only response we got from CCP told us we were fine, everything else was ignored.

... and CCP trolled you this year in return.

I hope this teaches you a valuable lesson: you can't just piss off everyone and expect no retaliation if circumstances permit.

[roigon]

But if you had two gladiators in the arena that didn't want to fight each other seriously back in ancient rome, what would have happened? The powers that be would have had them both executed. Or maybe they'd open up the cages and sick a couple hungry tigers on them.

Maybe the correct response was to sick a bunch of angry NPCs on the field to nuke the participants making a mockery of the event.

Now THAT would be pretty cool.

They have the new rule this year that if players are seemingly throwing the match CCP can invalidate the match. They should seriously add a button to that that just spawns an assload of incursion rats or something into the area ring to kill all the contestants.

I'd watch it.

[Intigo]

Other Alliances have practiced together just fine. Are the rules different for us? Are they different just because we joined a single corp?

Yes - they didn't ruin last year's final. Remember: this is EVE - never forget, never forgive.

I stopped playing EVE before last year's tournament, so I souldn't care less. But ever since I started playing EVE back in 2006, the AT was the highlight of the year for me personally. And man, was I pissed last year ...

You trolled CCP last year ...


Not to mention 2 emails to the EveTV address went completely unanswered and ignored - the only response we got from CCP told us we were fine, everything else was ignored.

... and CCP trolled you this year in return.

I hope this teaches you a valuable lesson: you can't just piss off everyone and expect no retaliation if circumstances permit.

Wow.

[Raivi]

I don't buy the idea that CCP would have banned you no matter what. The simple fact is that after last year you were under more scrutiny and didn't get the benefit of the doubt. The rule was made specifically because of your previous actions and you acted in a way that made it look like you were one team in every possible outward way.

CCP was terrible at communication, procrastinated in making a decision and Sreegs is bad at forum moderation, but none of that is unexpected.

[Intigo]

Guess we fucked up by expecting to actually get a response from the AT team (and have some kind of reasonable conversation to get things clarified) and taking the only response we received as correct

All of it could have been avoided had they just replied instead of completely ignoring it and then going "yeah you banned"

joy

also, I still can't get over how hilarious the timing of the ban was - 30 minutes before the auctions open

and sure, Raivi, they may not have banned us no matter what but they were just looking for an excuse - when we thought they weren't vindictive about last year and were open about our intentions to practice together and get clarification they didn't give a fuck and just latched onto it to have semblance of a reason to ban us outright

[Krugerrand]

I don't buy the idea that CCP would have banned you no matter what. The simple fact is that after last year you were under more scrutiny and didn't get the benefit of the doubt. The rule was made specifically because of your previous actions and you acted in a way that made it look like you were one team in every possible outward way.

CCP was terrible at communication, procrastinated in making a decision and Sreegs is bad at forum moderation, but none of that is unexpected.

CCP talk to and work with RvB to come up with a compromise.
CCP ignore all our attempts to communicate with them. We have to rely on a GM response, CCP claims it was sent in error.

Last I checked Hydra and Outbreak are separate entities who rarely work together. But CCP thinks we are one big alliance. Watch out sov holders we are coming to get you!!!!

[Varcaus]

I don't buy the idea that CCP would have banned you no matter what. The simple fact is that after last year you were under more scrutiny and didn't get the benefit of the doubt. The rule was made specifically because of your previous actions and you acted in a way that made it look like you were one team in every possible outward way.

CCP was terrible at communication, procrastinated in making a decision and Sreegs is bad at forum moderation, but none of that is unexpected.

CCP talk to and work with RvB to come up with a compromise.
CCP ignore all our attempts to communicate with them. We have to rely on a GM response, CCP claims it was sent in error.

Last I checked Hydra and Outbreak are separate entities who rarely work together. But CCP thinks we are one big alliance. Watch out sov holders we are coming to get you!!!!

Just those "hundreds of hours" right?

[Larkonis Trassler]

Aside from 'fixing' the final I fail to see how Hydra and Outbreak 'gamed' the system last year. Two competent teams made the best use of resources available to them (and everyone else) and made it to the final. It could have been managed better but that's the way it goes.
I was pretty disappointed with the end result but there had been plenty of ~goodfights~ leading up to it and having read Duncan's expose on the amount of effort that both teams put into the tournament I actually didn't mind the fact that the match came across as obviously thrown.

As for the 'B Team' rule this appears to have been invoked out of spite. Last year several entities detached players early to join 'alt' alliances (PL being one of them, my employment history will forever be tarred with the original goonswarm). This is completely different to what Hydra and Outbreak have done. These are two historically separate entities and I very much doubt there has been or will be any cross pollination of pilots on TQ. This is simply a case of two 'underdogs' pooling their resources so they can practice with more efficiency, not a case of a large entity fielding multiple teams to increase their chances of doing well.

Saying that...

Nigga you dumb.

What the fuck did you expect? You should have at least waited to have your places in the tournament confirmed and not trusted the word of a mere GM.

[Krugerrand]

Good post Lark. People are glossing over the fact we are not a single alliance. CCP are being very selective and not surprise.d Well yeah but even if we got into the tournament CCP would probably have banned us if we even tried to train together. I don't see how if we agreed to train with a different group it can be applied any differently but whatever. Early training once the rules are announced is kinda important.

[Krugerrand]

These rules are taken off the official ATX website.


To ensure that all Alliances get a fair opportunity to participate we will be checking on team entries and will disqualify teams who we consider to be 'B' or 'C' teams for bigger Alliances.

1) Neither Outbreak nor Hydra are a big alliance
2) Both Hydra and Outbreak are separate alliances. In particular Outbreak has DFC in our alliance last we checked.
3) Nothing in the rule states both teams would be banned. This would therefore imply Outbreak & Hydra are B teams of some other "big" alliance. I'm guessing PL here? *conspiracy*
4) The rule at no points states that two separate alliances cannot train together, especially when you consider the difficulties with AT training. All other teams have been allowed to train with other teams. The fact we used 1 corp on SISI was to make life easier due to the amount of work involved but lolCCP want to jump on that to help justify it.
5) The rule has not been applied in the same manner to any other team.


For Alliance Tournament X the referees can call a match null and void or declare a result if they believe that one of the teams is not competing. This tournament is designed to showcase the talents of pilots and should be entertaining.

This rule is being introduced to prevent the situation of last AT. While I don't know if it will work most of us were in support of it. As we are not even in a match yet this rule cannot yet apply. Had OB/Hydra met at any point it was going to be a proper fisticuffs. Again CCP could have removed any attempt post-group stages by randomizing the last 16 spots, rather than have it per-deterimined but decided not to do this. Again.

[Rynnik]

I think you missed the part in Lark's post where he called you fucking idiots.

You FORCED CCP to ban you, by being completely retarded about something any reasonable person would acknowledge was aimed at you. I just don't get how you expect to come off as anything other then a moron when you seem to think you didn't walk around with your hands in your pockets whistling 'we are the champions' directly off a 1000 foot cliff with CCP trademarked warning signs along the way.

You could not be bothered to change directions AT ALL to avoid this looming problem because: WH logistics are tough, you are too small, your intentions were pure, you really are different alliances on TQ.

[Intigo]

Kruger, what it says in the rules doesn't really matter when CCP can do whatever they want, really

It's sad, but v0v

Everyone (except idiotic EVE-O posters) knows they have no basis in the rules for banning both teams, but they don't care

try poasting it on EVE-O and see how those idiots spin it

[Larkonis Trassler]

Kruger, what it says in the rules doesn't really matter when CCP can do whatever they want, really

It's sad, but v0v

Everyone (except idiotic EVE-O posters) knows they have no basis in the rules for banning both teams, but they don't care

I wholeheartedly agree with you mate but really... what do you expect?

CCP were out for blood. You played the game well but they've got egg on their face. It's the reason the top four didn't get auto entry this year. It's the reason they let the decision slide to a 'mere' GM.

[KalRyan]

They have every basis in the world for banning both of you. You folks made it easy on them by doing the exact same thing you did last year. The only ones spinning here OB/Hydra.

The only people that can't see that you guys walked directly into this ban is.. well.. you guys.

[Larkonis Trassler]

They have every basis in the world for banning both of you. You folks made it easy on them by doing the exact same thing you did last year. The only ones spinning here OB/Hydra.

The only people that can't see that you guys walked directly into this ban is.. well.. you guys.

Shut up. You're an idiot.

[KalRyan]

They have every basis in the world for banning both of you. You folks made it easy on them by doing the exact same thing you did last year. The only ones spinning here OB/Hydra.

The only people that can't see that you guys walked directly into this ban is.. well.. you guys.

Shut up. You're an idiot.

No, u.

[Larkonis Trassler]

They have every basis in the world for banning both of you. You folks made it easy on them by doing the exact same thing you did last year. The only ones spinning here OB/Hydra.

The only people that can't see that you guys walked directly into this ban is.. well.. you guys.

Shut up. You're an idiot.

No, u.

YOU ARE GOING RED!

[Soryn Kael]

If it makes you feel any better... just assume it was maneuvering by another team that got you both banned in the metagame.

[The Monkeysphere]

I don't get why people are mad at HYDRA/OB over last year's tourney.

They were better than anyone else, that's it.

[Intigo]

I don't get why people are mad at HYDRA/OB over last year's tourney.

They were better than anyone else, that's it.

this is true

it's not like we used nolocal.py

[KalRyan]

I don't get why people are mad at HYDRA/OB over last year's tourney.

They were better than anyone else, that's it.

I'm not mad. They were the best last year. (The final match was shitty, though.. no matter if it was intentional or not)

I'm just enjoying some quality Schadenfreude @ all the tears over this.

[Rans]

There is some point to that, allowing for some player metagaming as a selling point of the tourney.

But if you had two gladiators in the arena that didn't want to fight each other seriously back in ancient rome, what would have happened? The powers that be would have had them both executed. Or maybe they'd open up the cages and sick a couple hungry tigers on them.

Maybe the correct response was to sick a bunch of angry NPCs on the field to nuke the participants making a mockery of the event.

The sad story for you guys is this - there were two simple things you could have done to not have this happen:

1. Have a serious fight for the final last round
2. Found other practice buddies for this go-around.

It's honestly on you to make a clean break from any bad behavior. Its painfully obvious that the rule was targeting Hydra and Outbreak when it was added for this tourney. Everyone knew it. Teaming back up was - and yes, this isnt fair - asking CCP to throw the book at you.

This didn't come out of nowhere.

You had warning.

You chose to skirt the line. They judged you stepped out. There is no video replay, and no coach's challenge.

Is it fair? No.

Does your arrangement look a whole lot like last year? Absolutely, down to the wormhole sharing and everything. It's not fair, but the perceptions were close enough that given how you guys fucked the last final, I don't blame them for not wanting to take a second chance.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/376/336/sp_1411_clip05_original.jpg?1332793519




20/20

[Larkonis Trassler]

I don't get why people are mad at HYDRA/OB over last year's tourney.

They were better than anyone else, that's it.

This.

Both teams got to the final.
Both teams defeated X number of opponents on the way there. There was a bit of social engineering on the way but at the end of the day anyone could have beaten them and deflowered their plan.

[Tyrehl]

What the fuck. Yeah, ban some of the best teams around (hydra/outbreak). And what about test.

[Krugerrand]

For anyone who wondered what I thought was going to happen, I did suspect CCP would try to fuck with us one way or another and that Outbreak would probably not be allowed to compete with these rules. This seemed quite likely with the general non-professional responses we were seeing by the CCP AT dev team on the forums (+ lack of via email). I was actually all set to rage about me being considered an alt. CCP could have applied the rules in that fashion at a stretch, but the problem I have is that they have applied it differently to all other alliances where this has cropped up.

So yeah I'm mad, but its kinda laughable and as far as I'm concerned I'm done with eve. CCP have ruined the slim amount of trust I had left in them, but its just BS after BS with them.

[The Monkeysphere]

IN SUPPORT OF OUTBREAK AND HYDRA RELOADED


http://www.comedycentral.com/tosh.0/files/2010/09/frog-and-toad.jpg

[Krugerrand]

♥ you MS :D

[Ampoliros]

These rules are taken off the official ATX website.


To ensure that all Alliances get a fair opportunity to participate we will be checking on team entries and will disqualify teams who we consider to be 'B' or 'C' teams for bigger Alliances.

3) Nothing in the rule states both teams would be banned. This would therefore imply Outbreak & Hydra are B teams of some other "big" alliance. I'm guessing PL here? *conspiracy*


We will be actively removing those alliances that try and add a ‘B’ or ‘C’ team. We want everyone to have a fair chance but stacking the deck in this manner will not be permitted. This removal will also include the main alliance if we detect anyone trying to field more than one team.

link to the original ATX rules devblog (http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28644)

e: Just to clarify, I'll say (again) that CCP not responding to you guys was pretty shit and inexcusable, but you were warned that bad things could happen. v0v

[Krugerrand]

I only read from match rules down tbh, cos thats where the important stuff is. Why not put that clearly in the rules as well? In any case it still means PL should be banned as well if the rules are applied fairly.

[Mangala Solaris]

Cant recall posting yet, but my personal pov (not that of rvb's team or anything rvb related) is that CCP could have handled this much better. They did so with RvBs situation - however dissimilar - and actually answered communications in a timely fashion the few times we had a need to clarify things with them.

Not having the 2 best teams from last year - despite the Final, you guys really were entertaining and deserving of where you got - just wont make RvB's run this year feel as sweet as it should, at least for me. Do wish that CCP could have come to a more palatable arrangement for you all.

[Larkonis Trassler]

CCP could have handled this much better.


>implying CCP has ever handled anything well.

[Ravelin Eb]

lol so the rule specifically created to stop you doing this, you ignored. "it's cool though lets send some petitions off to see if its ok, but while we haven't heard of actual clarification on the rule created that applies to exactly this thing we are doing from an ATX dev lets just continue breaking that rule"

As soon as I heard you were repeating your method from last year, I was expecting this. It's a real shame as both outbreak and hydra are good teams without collusion between yourselves.

"Rabble and baww PL should be banned just like us" Hardly fair as waffles and pl haven't been in a wormhole in the same corp training as one entity, I am gutted for waffles though, collateral damage in the mess you bought upon yourselves. Those guys have been practising for months already.

[Rivqua]

I only read from match rules down tbh, cos thats where the important stuff is. Why not put that clearly in the rules as well? In any case it still means PL should be banned as well if the rules are applied fairly.

Actually, no. The PL situation is more akin to RvB, as in, they are open, and up front about it. Everyone knows who the waffles are. You on the other hand pretend to be separate alliances, while clearly colluding, as shown by your tactics on sisi, and last years finals.

The whole "We didn't mean to" and "But if we met this year, it would have been a real fight" sounds really like a thief saying to the officer "I promise I didn't do it". I mean, what else is he supposed to say. It's always better to play for the "we are being molested by big bad ccp" instead of just owning up.

[Zeekar]

-nvm-

[whispous]

CCP could have handled this much better.


>implying CCP has ever handled anything well.

You shut your whore mouth! You made the NC rich!

[Steph]

I don't particularly like being called an alt alliance.

Yeah, well I don't like it when two teams rig the final match of the AT. And apparently neither does CCP.

The GM's over-zealous reaction aside, you reap what you sow.

[Shiodome]

haha, i'd have prefered Hydra and outbreak in the tournament as better teams = good. but it's endearingly retarded of them to set up their preparations in this way and then act surprised when ccp tells them to fuck off.

[Qwert]

Frankly, I couldn't care less how fair it was. Their tears are more delicious than the bears caught in Hulkageddon.

:popcorn:

[Larkonis Trassler]

http://thewedordeadwager.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/mydear.jpg

[prometheus]

Frankly, I couldn't care less how fair it was. Their tears are more delicious than the bears caught in Hulkageddon.

:popcorn:

[Davion Falcon]

In mother Russia, CCP meta's you!

[Namamai]

Frankly, I couldn't care less how fair it was. Their tears are more delicious than the bears caught in Hulkageddon.

:popcorn:
QFT.

[Raimo]

I only read from match rules down tbh, cos thats where the important stuff is. Why not put that clearly in the rules as well? In any case it still means PL should be banned as well if the rules are applied fairly.

Actually, no. The PL situation is more akin to RvB, as in, they are open, and up front about it. Everyone knows who the waffles are. You on the other hand pretend to be separate alliances, while clearly colluding, as shown by your tactics on sisi, and last years finals.

The whole "We didn't mean to" and "But if we met this year, it would have been a real fight" sounds really like a thief saying to the officer "I promise I didn't do it". I mean, what else is he supposed to say. It's always better to play for the "we are being molested by big bad ccp" instead of just owning up.

Open like approaching the AT team with multiple emails as well?

And lol at Prom :emo:

[bigmac]

CCP could have handled this much better.


>implying CCP has ever handled anything well.

Like your own transgressions a few years ago? Yeah, they screwed that up royally. If it was me I would have swung the permabanhammer at you hard. Not too surprising tbh to see a confessed cheater here whiteknighting other cheaters.

I don't blame CCP for wanting their premiere annual event to be a display of Olympic Boxing as opposed to a cheap staged Pro Wrestling match. They found two known ex-cons violating their parole and decided to nip it in the bud. Good for them. One thing is for sure, the word "integrity" will never be associated with HYDRA again.

Intigo at least has a consolation prize: his epic tears in this thread automatically qualify him as the all-time leader of idiot eve-o whiners. This thread delivers!

[Yankunytjatjara]

if only we had the tactical prowess of RvB: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357650#post1357650

Oh my - RvB is full of noobs? You don't say!
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJFunS57SUmGknGh4vF82bUK3nV7ihO o93ynafO9w0loDbifDe90CZmlXg

Don't get me wrong... I've been a fanboi of you folks too (really, kb lurker forever). But now.... Now even legendary punisher of shitposters Intigo can't manage a snarky response. Whatever happened to you guys this year??!!

A reverse conspiracy theory comes to mind. I can't but think that this was done on purpose, by who pulls the strings, being unsure of Hydra's skill after one year. Do something that gets you banned, avoid the confrontation, and avoid to see last year's glory fade away in a loss vs randums... Leave with a troll rather than a fail. Obviously no one would ever admit this, but it makes some sense doesn't it.

[glepp]

What really surprises me is how HydraBreak seem to not have seen this coming. Seriously guys, WTF?

After you rigged the last years final and did a fucking poor job of it too, CCP introduced a set of rules to make sure it didn't happen again. Specifically because of how Hydra and 0utbreak cooperated and ruined the final for everyone, including CCP and it's sponsors. CCP is a business. It makes business decisions so that it can do better business. You ruined that for them by cheating in a very public event. I read your apology last year, and for all its heart warming details on how hard you worked, guess what? It doesn't matter. You cheated and ruined a business opportunity for CCP.
Now, CCP as a business, made sure that wouldn't happen again. They laid out the rules pretty damn clearly. No A and B team like you had last year. "But we're seperate entities!" you say? No you're not. Judging from last year, you're one entity when it comes to the tournament. Give me one good reason why CCP should lend your words any credibility, please. It's actions that matter here and from the looks of things from the outside, you wanted to repeat last years events by cooperating closely. That's what CCP wanted to avoid, and you're not entitled to any special treatment just because you're damn good at this game.

Now, there's a couple of things you could have done to avoid being banned:
1. Have nothing to do with eachother, no cooperation, do all your tourney prep seperately. But you didn't want that. You wanted to cooperate.
2. Join the same alliance in game and enter as one. I duno, call it HydraBreak United or whatever. Yeah, fewer pilots would have been able to fly, but that's what happens to other alliances without two teams as well. Tell me why you should be special snowflakes please.

But you didn't want that. From the looks of things from the outside, you wanted to repeat last year by being clever and lawyering the rules, so CCP decided to make an example of you. You're smart people, you could have avoided it. Seriously, why didn't you? I wanted to watch you kick ass.

So in other words: HydraBreak, I am disappoint.

[Durzel]

As shitty a spectacle last AT's final was I think a lot of people upset over it are forgetting the fact that neither Hydra nor Outbreak just breezed into the final unchallenged. They both still had to get there and manipulate results in such a way as to make events unfold in the most advantageous way possible for both parties. That's no mean feat.

Taken in that context one might argue that them both getting to the final in the first place was the point at which the tournament was won, the actual final itself was effectively just a ceremony.

For me looking at Eve as greater than the sum of its parts I kinda admire this level of meta-gaming and manipulation. I could see this decision coming after last years AT but it doesn't make it any less dumb, meta-gaming occurs and will always occur in a tournament where the prizes are worth hundreds of billions and, dare I say it, a commensurate value in real life cash in RMT circles. Whether this meta-gaming is in your face (as it was in last years final) or done behind closed doors is neither here nor there really.

The problem really is in CCP thinking it is possible to stage a tournament where this sort of thing is outlawed, whilst similarly holding the line that meta-gaming is what Eve is all about. The two attitudes are contradictory.

[Rans]

how hard would it have been for CCP to just contact hydra on day and say: if I see your two alliances in the same system on sisi once more you're both out.

instead CCP saw what was going on and it was the perfect chance to get back at them, so win win win

[Raimo]

how hard would it have been for CCP to just contact hydra on day and say: if I see your two alliances in the same system on sisi once more you're both out.

instead CCP saw what was going on and it was the perfect chance to get back at them, so win win win

This. And yankyank, don't be silly, last year's Hydra and OB were noob teams compared to what would have happened now /o (Hell I was playing on finals day, I wouldn't have had time this year, that alone would make said improvement :P )

[Yankunytjatjara]

This. And yankyank, don't be silly, last year's Hydra and OB were noob teams compared to what would have happened now /o (Hell I was playing on finals day, I wouldn't have had time this year, that alone would make said improvement :P )

:) <3 but I respectfully disagree - you were in frigs duty weren't you...

[Larkonis Trassler]

CCP could have handled this much better.


>implying CCP has ever handled anything well.

Like your own transgressions a few years ago? Yeah, they screwed that up royally. If it was me I would have swung the permabanhammer at you hard. Not too surprising tbh to see a confessed cheater here whiteknighting other cheaters.

I don't blame CCP for wanting their premiere annual event to be a display of Olympic Boxing as opposed to a cheap staged Pro Wrestling match. They found two known ex-cons violating their parole and decided to nip it in the bud. Good for them. One thing is for sure, the word "integrity" will never be associated with HYDRA again.

Intigo at least has a consolation prize: his epic tears in this thread automatically qualify him as the all-time leader of idiot eve-o whiners. This thread delivers!

Look at you

Look at how much of an autistic baby you are.

[Lorkin Desal]

Holy fuck, so many tears, so little time to find a crystal decanter to keep them in.

[Rivqua]

how hard would it have been for CCP to just contact hydra on day and say: if I see your two alliances in the same system on sisi once more you're both out.

instead CCP saw what was going on and it was the perfect chance to get back at them, so win win win

I for one don't think CCP needs to pander to the lowest common denominator. If they are retarded enough to break very explicit, clear, and obvious rules (written on the official AT X dev blog no less), I don't see why CCP should have to go and hold their hands and tell them (again) that they are doing it wrong.

[GiDiYi]

Hi,
No, as long as those alliances are not working for the same team, so to
speak. If we find out that these 2 alliances are pretty much the same
people, but created a second alliance to try and stack the deck then both
will be removed.
With kind regards,
Senior GM xxxxxxxx
The EVE Online Customer Support Team

If this actually is the reply they got (I just grabbed it from Kugu, so I don't know), then they can't be helped, because they had it coming and got warned in written form.

vOv

[Cortess]

Just rewatched last years final.
Alone for this ccp should've banned you for this year. That you even started to practice together, yet alone formed a corp ... :psyduck:

[Daneel Trevize]

So did you watch the Semi-final matches?

Also, let me remind you of the disco rainbow BS conga (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1nmbtmSmZs) that CO2 and Wild Boars performed as a 'match'.

[Cortess]

I only watched the finals and the matchs i were interested in.

Yes, that BS Conga is also bad. But it's not the final match.

Also lol at "CCP could have avoided the whole thing by answering your petitions (clearly)". Why not avoiding it by not doing stuff which you are clearly not sure about of it's forbidden? You played with fire and got burned.

As result we now have this entertaining thread.

[Intigo]

how hard would it have been for CCP to just contact hydra on day and say: if I see your two alliances in the same system on sisi once more you're both out.

instead CCP saw what was going on and it was the perfect chance to get back at them, so win win win

I for one don't think CCP needs to pander to the lowest common denominator. If they are retarded enough to break very explicit, clear, and obvious rules (written on the official AT X dev blog no less), I don't see why CCP should have to go and hold their hands and tell them (again) that they are doing it wrong.

are

you

serious?

how are those rules very explicit, clear and obvious?

CVA & 4th were practicing together in a wormhole too

TEST & Goons practice together too