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Lana Torrin
April 4 2012, 08:11:35 AM
Yes I know its been discussed to death... I'll also say up front I believe super-caps are bad for the game so take this idea how you will..

Basically we have 2 types of ship causing trouble in the game. Supercarriers (which have already had a nerf) and Titans (Which are about to have one).. As I see it, balancing them with little nerfs and tweaks doesn't change the fundamental problem with them, bigger is always better, and more is even better still. So im going to break this down in to 2 fixes that should be implemented together.

- Super-carriers -

Going with CCPs 'role based' ship classes I see these as being the static defense killers of the carrier world.. Able to take out POSs and slow moving capital ships with their fighter bombers while still being vulnerable themselves.

- Remove the EWAR immunity. Possibly replace it with a focused point immunity to allow them to jump out if a POS has them pointed (or an unprepared fleet)
- Reduce their stats and build cost to about that of a carrier, possibly slightly better (5-10%). Obviously this will reduce their cost as well. If you give enough notice to the player base then people will get fair use out of their uber ships now.
- Allow them to dock (They are just slightly bigger carriers now)
- Keep the fighter bombers and not being able to use normal drones. Reduce the fighter bombers pre-req to fighters 4. (easier to get in to, but as they aren't all might power anymore thats not an issue)
- No remote rep bonus at all. Cant triage. This allows it to have a different roll to the current carriers (that act more like large logi) which will remain useful in a mixed fleet.
- Slot layout and CPU/Grid should be balanced around them being just another carrier class.

- Titans -

This is the biggest change. Basically the goal is for them to become a massive command unit/mobile POS. On their own they should be completely vulnerable (With enough firepower) but in a fleet should be the lynchpin that holds everything together.

- Can not dock. Way to large.. Also stays persistent in space when the player logs off. As a game note when the player logs off but is still piloting the ship they should become completely immobile (like a POS) so they cant get bumped out of shields/etc.
- No guns.
- Has stats somewhere between a medium and large tower and has a POS shield. The POS shield eats fuel to keep it up and can be turned off and on by the pilot (module with a cycle time).
- Can 'deploy'. (sort of like the rorqual, but no transformer thing). Becomes completely immobile and can deploy sentry guns (like a POS). Guns remain out until the Titan is no longer deployed and are controlled by the Titan pilot (like a POS gunner) if he online. Also like a POS these sit outside the shields and can be targeted separately and destroyed. Cycle time should be about an hour (or 30 mins, or wherever, just long)
- Command ship (or T3) type bonuses.
- Has a corp hanger and ship bay of about the same size as the POS modules. Can only be accessed while deployed. This allows people to refit while inside the titans shields.
- Keeps the doomsday (only weapon)
- Keeps the bridge. Works the same way as it does now. Can be used while deployed.
- Gets a new type of bridge in addition to the existing one. This one can only be used while not deployed. It allows the Titan to jump to any 0.0 or lowsec system (even cynojammed) without the need of a cyno. Takes every ship within 10km of it with them. The whole group is dropped at random inside the target system (everything as 1 big lump) not on any existing grids. Cant jump, use this bridge or deploy for another 30 mins. This allows titans to be used as a surprise attack command ship, but you have to take the titan in with you.


You can set up the high slots so they can take 1 of the bridge modules, the doomsday, the deployment module and some modules for the defense guns (say 3 or 4 guns per module?)

- Dreads -

Ok this one isn't really needed but its always given me the shits that dreads are not really a step up from battleships.. Make another dread class and make it a fleet combat dread.. Better* tracking and no need to siege to be useful (sieged dreads still have much better DPS and tank though)

* better in this case means it can hit slow moving battleships and capitals. Make the DPS and tank about the same step up from cruisers to battleships.

StevieTopSiders
April 4 2012, 08:19:37 AM
I like the part about Supercarriers becoming damage-dealing Carriers and removing their repair role. Give current pilots 20 new hulls in a nearby losec system.

As for the Titan... I hate the idea of them being mobile POSes. That makes them literally useless. What are PL to do with 100 deployable POSes? I'm all for removing them (reimbursing current pilots the minerals for the hull) and coming up with another combat/support role later.

Sponk
April 4 2012, 08:24:20 AM
I like the part about Supercarriers becoming damage-dealing Carriers and removing their repair role. Give current pilots 20 new hulls in a nearby losec system.

I like aspects of this idea too.


As for the Titan... I hate the idea of them being mobile POSes. That makes them literally useless. What are PL to do with 100 deployable POSes?

Rage like there's no tomorrow.

Regardless, I think there's room for Titans to be more combat capable than what you have described, Lana, perhaps by reintroducing the Mothership name.

Lana Torrin
April 4 2012, 08:47:30 AM
As for the Titan... I hate the idea of them being mobile POSes. That makes them literally useless. What are PL to do with 100 deployable POSes? I'm all for removing them (reimbursing current pilots the minerals for the hull) and coming up with another combat/support role later.

I don't know or care TBH, im not looking at this from a 'what would the current players do with their assets' point of view, simply from a whats good for the game point of view. I would argue the ability to drop a whole fleet in to a cyno jammed system from 20 or so jumps away is a pretty neat role..


Regardless, I think there's room for Titans to be more combat capable than what you have described, Lana, perhaps by reintroducing the Mothership name.

That was the idea of giving them POS guns. I was thinking 8 to 12 POS guns + shield + a POS gunner capable of using them all at once (+ hardener slots and probably shield boosters). With POS type stats they still aren't going to be lightweights, you just cant leave them sitting on their own to get killed. Allowing the pilot to change the guns on the fly (In my mind I have them like large drones, getting dropped in space then flying out to their position and onlining) would add some versatility in to the mix.

Alain Colcer
April 4 2012, 02:34:37 PM
Not sure why, but i always recall the first time CCP was asked about capitals and they said "its a new line of ships", so you need to fill roles in that size.

Therefore

Start by
-removing the drone control unit from the game, and reimburse the advanced drone interfacing skill
-removing the ecm burst module and reimburse its skill requirement

Carriers -> the Logi ships, Bonus to remote rep/shield transfer. Triage mode boosts logi and local reps. Able to deploy up to 5 fighters. Small corp hangar and ship hangar

Dread -> Turret heavy hitter. Ship in siege also gives slight bonus to armor/shield resistances (depending on racial dread).

Super carriers -> Drone heavy hitter, front line attack. Able to deploy up to 10 fighters or fighter bombers. Damage bonus to fighers and figher-bombers. Remove all logistic bonus. small corp hangar and ship hangar.

Titan -> The capital command ship. large bonuses to gang links in addition to racial bonus to gang. Doomsday device maintained as current. Remove all turret hardpoint and bonuses. No fighters (only 5 heavy drones). HUGE corp hangar and ship hangar (able to carry up to 40 assembled battleships but no capitals). Jump portal device as current.


You want to keep your capitals alive? you deploy carriers
You want best bonuses for your gang? you bring titan in system
You want the heavy hitters blapping left and right? bring dreads and supercarriers....

Want to break the logi chain of the enemy? neut and kill carriers!
Need to refuel/reship/rearm? use the titan
Need to disable station services? bring dreads and supercarriers....

it all fits to me

Mike deVoid
April 4 2012, 02:58:17 PM
I kinda like the basis of those cap roles there Alain

Shin_getter
April 4 2012, 02:59:30 PM
While the titan bridge function is more then sufficient to give titans a useful role, I don't think the whole command/refit/logistics idea would pan out in tactical use, not for something that expensive, can not dock and centralized (thus completely inflexible and clumsy to use) and vulnerable to enemy fire, while fleets themselves are quite self sufficient and bridges work so well. I mean it can't even do the basic job of picking up stuff from station and getting to pilots in the front without a bunch of alts.

If you give it huge cargo space, it would likely just be a super evac ship.

Alain Colcer
April 4 2012, 03:21:51 PM
uhm, yes titans could be used as Evac ships for retreating out to low-sec.. i don't particularly see anything wrong there.

They could also be used in reverse, beach head into hostile territory once cyno-jammers were brought down... which is something odd that never quite solified in eve tactics to my knowledge. Either you deployed a POS into hostile territory or you didnt have any way position to "regroup and rearm".

The POS in this case is still your "fort", but now you have a good supply line not just in Jump freighters or blockade runners portaled with BOs, but in a gang-boosting titan with a reasonable quantity of ships to spare.

Shin_getter
April 4 2012, 03:38:29 PM
A POS is super cheap, accessible to people without needing someone specific to log in, highly survivable with wide array of defenses and zomg invulnerability timer, and can be resupplied by anything.

Unless the titan pilot is account shared to hell, or owned by a person with absolutely no life, you'd get a lot of down time when the pilot is off and people stuck without ships what not. It is also a extremely boring job "flying" a POS, where the pilot really doesn't do anything interesting at all other then deal with everyone else's inventory all day. Because the titan is so huge and doesn't dock, it doesn't work well as a hauler either, and with normal bays means it can not accept reloads from freighter variants so it is bad as storage as well. If the titan pilot want to haul something, it is better to just use the bridge.

I have toyed with the idea where titans are no longer piloted, but instead works like a POS, where a player with suitable skills and the password can command the titan to do things, and it never disappear from space. That kind of design is probably necessary for it to work as a staging asset. Even then, people will probably throw a POS to protect the titan anyways and it'd mainly be used because it can bridge.

Rynnik
April 4 2012, 03:52:16 PM
This is the best supercap ideas thread I have read in a long while. I really think we are at the point where something this dramatic is the best option. Hell, this is what I thought Titan's were before I actually played EVE and knew better.

Pattern
April 4 2012, 04:43:07 PM
^^Pretty much a distilled versions of the better "super cap" do over ideas.

I had an additional idea about titans and mom's.

You can anchor a titan like a pos, with about 10x the HP.
Titans provide pilots with a *flag ship* combat ship (eg BS hull with t2 resists +pirate style bonuses) that only that pilot can fly. Something nice to fly, but if it explodes, that's it until you get another titan.
Provides starbase style medical facilities
Can provide system wide environmental (see w-space) effects when anchored first)
Can provide system wide gang effects (assuming links get made grid only)

Supercarrier fighter drones provide resist debuffs to targets
Fighter bombers work on stationary objects only
Lose ewar immunity
Can dock
Price reduced by 2/3rds

Moms are introduced as POS shields alone with a few other anti-smartweaponary (missiles, drones) mods

2x tier 2 dreads, one long jump range, lower ehp, slightly cheaper, the other short jump range - home defence siege dread with improved cargohold and ehp

Alain Colcer
April 4 2012, 04:57:15 PM
A POS is super cheap, accessible to people without needing someone specific to log in, highly survivable with wide array of defenses and zomg invulnerability timer, and can be resupplied by anything.

Unless the titan pilot is account shared to hell, or owned by a person with absolutely no life, you'd get a lot of down time when the pilot is off and people stuck without ships what not. It is also a extremely boring job "flying" a POS, where the pilot really doesn't do anything interesting at all other then deal with everyone else's inventory all day. Because the titan is so huge and doesn't dock, it doesn't work well as a hauler either, and with normal bays means it can not accept reloads from freighter variants so it is bad as storage as well. If the titan pilot want to haul something, it is better to just use the bridge.

I have toyed with the idea where titans are no longer piloted, but instead works like a POS, where a player with suitable skills and the password can command the titan to do things, and it never disappear from space. That kind of design is probably necessary for it to work as a staging asset. Even then, people will probably throw a POS to protect the titan anyways and it'd mainly be used because it can bridge.

uhm, im not really fancy of making Titans a sort-of-POS ship...

I do like the fact titans wield the strongest volley-fire weapon in all of eve (DDs) and they are meant to "lead" the fleet into battle or move them across the galaxy. I just added the "ship supply depot" to it while removing the XL turrets (which are the big controversy after all) in order to keep it somewhat appealing.

If you remove all conventional offensive weaponry from titans, then DDs gain importance. In that light DDs should drain cap dry (down to zero!) and require at least 75% cap to fire (much like jumping out mechanics), but their 1-hour refire delay and other hard-coded limits could be removed so its more of a "my support fleet feeds the engine to continue firing DDs". Suddenly you don't want your titan to be alone by itself.

As to why i give gang-centric role to titan, is because given the quantity of highslots, you could go wild and fit as many as 6 links, boosting your fleet in all needed ways (even info links start to gain appeal at such point).

But such suggestions do not deal with the main problem of titans, they are, for all effects, prisons in space.

It is somewhat unrelated as to how balance them, but it does skewes the "utility factor" for players, CCP implemented the whole thing chaining a character for life into one ship, which is just retarded. They should have added at some point the ability to "park" the ship somehow and allow the pilot to do other things.

Pattern
April 4 2012, 05:26:07 PM
Is it just me or is the whole, slow, lumbering, fire once, wait x minutes, turn tank on, and make cup of tea... shitty game play?

Hense, when you completely neuter it by removing XL guns, you might as well turn it into a POS.

Shin_getter
April 4 2012, 05:48:40 PM
I'm just saying bridging POS to POS is just much better then ship/cargo bays in terms of security (no 70bil ship hostile space), access (can still take ships while titan is logged), speed (can bridge waves of freighters faster then titans can jump back and forth), flexibility (can move pilots with bridges). As for "lead" fleets, that is a fancy description and not really a role. The idea of a flagship leading is romantic, but expensive assets are almost universally kept in reserve behind tons of scouts and intel and it'd take a lot of combat power and lowered risk of deployment for that to change, usually translating to such low risk that they get dropped on small gangs and likes.

Having a rapid fire DD limited by capacitor is interesting, but likely will shift "i win" composition into carrier blobs supporting titans that insta-frag opponent caps if they can't bring enough to DD back. Subcaps will have a hard time breaking blobby carrier rr/cap chain with no cap support of their own so much crying is going to happen there.

Links, medical clones and environmental effect would probably have minimum adverse effects on other player's games, though this role makes titan the most boring ship to fly. That is why I proposed a POS-controlled type titan, so no more pilots are trapped inside of it.


Is it just me or is the whole, slow, lumbering, fire once, wait x minutes, turn tank on, and make cup of tea... shitty game play?
Would be fun for titan pilots if: no ewar immunity, aoe DD (can warp/jump after, but cooldown on DD itself), glass tank...... but i don't think i can get people to accept this design instead of going :.psy_shin_getter.: :(

Lana Torrin
April 7 2012, 07:44:32 AM
Is it just me or is the whole, slow, lumbering, fire once, wait x minutes, turn tank on, and make cup of tea... shitty game play?

Hense, when you completely neuter it by removing XL guns, you might as well turn it into a POS.

That was pretty much what I was thinking.. If you arm them they become super powerful to the point where people will just superblob them and overwhelm everyone.. The idea of taking all their guns away but giving them some very unique abilities and turning them in to a mobile POS was to give people with them a rather good advantage, but people with 20 or 30 of them don't really get much more of an advantage (except you know, being able to hit multiple fronts at the same time).

They aren't for dicking around in lowsec, they aren't for ganking a few dozen cruisers on a gate, they are for commanding an attack fleet while trying to rip apart an opposing alliance..

tulip
April 7 2012, 05:39:57 PM
Give Doomsdays a big damage bonus against titans/supers and let them sort themselves out, or have them ignore resists to nullify silly X/A-type tanks, though that would de-racialise them.


Really big ships are silly and if you make them easier for non-really big ships to assplode then the pilots get all bitter, so just make it easier for them to kill each other, if the only role of supers becomes to kill other people's supers that their targets only have because they have a tonne of SP/isk and wish to differentiate themselves from the dread/carrier scrubs by piloting Epeen shaped mineral sinks, then so be it.

I almost didn't post because I have no idea what I'm talking about, but reading the thread illustrated that should not discourage me.

StevieTopSiders
April 7 2012, 06:03:20 PM
Give Doomsdays a big damage bonus against titans/supers and let them sort themselves out, or have them ignore resists to nullify silly X/A-type tanks, though that would de-racialise them.


Really big ships are silly and if you make them easier for non-really big ships to assplode then the pilots get all bitter, so just make it easier for them to kill each other, if the only role of supers becomes to kill other people's supers that their targets only have because they have a tonne of SP/isk and wish to differentiate themselves from the dread/carrier scrubs by piloting Epeen shaped mineral sinks, then so be it.

I almost didn't post because I have no idea what I'm talking about, but reading the thread illustrated that should not discourage me.

Doomsdays deal True Damage?

tulip
April 7 2012, 06:10:17 PM
Give Doomsdays a big damage bonus against titans/supers and let them sort themselves out, or have them ignore resists to nullify silly X/A-type tanks, though that would de-racialise them.


Really big ships are silly and if you make them easier for non-really big ships to assplode then the pilots get all bitter, so just make it easier for them to kill each other, if the only role of supers becomes to kill other people's supers that their targets only have because they have a tonne of SP/isk and wish to differentiate themselves from the dread/carrier scrubs by piloting Epeen shaped mineral sinks, then so be it.

I almost didn't post because I have no idea what I'm talking about, but reading the thread illustrated that should not discourage me.

Doomsdays deal True Damage?

Yeah, fuck it, why not? it's mainly other supers that have the deadspace tanks anyway.

Sponk
April 8 2012, 12:24:42 AM
so if you have no supers, you also have no counter to a super fleet? and supers require you to hold soverignty for a month or two?

I can see exactly how that would work.