Countering Tornados a.k.a. welcome to metagaming~

[Ruri]

v0v. There's a reason I didn't run Tornado fleets that often. Nobody in their right mind fights them. It really is a case of q:"How do you counter a Tornado fleet?" a:"With a better Tornado fleet". There really isn't a proper 'counter' to it that can be run by a small gang.


Bombers. Destroyers. AFs. Sniper HACs. Proper sniping Tr3s. Old fashioned nano. Maelstroms (or other long range high buffer battleships). Even an equal number of Rifters will win the efficiency battle with consumate ease, and take enough Tornados down to send that fleet home. Of course much depends on piloting, positioning, fitting excellence etc. But to claim that there's no counter except numbers is just plain false. Armor HACs and welpcanes do not fare well, and since that's apparently the most popular meta in Syndicate at the minute of course Tornados appear overpowered. In all honesty though every time Rote flies a Tornado fleet we move in constant fear of any or all of the above counters, precisely because many of them are cheap and common.
I dunno. We're talking equal numbers here, right? Destroyers, AFs, and Rifters do well close up but Tornados could just starburst and pop them from range. Nano, Maelstroms, sniper HACs, and proper sniping T3s won't be able to hold the Tornados down so they can just disengage. And bombers, well, sure, catch anything with its pants down and bombers are a counter, but against small gangs usually not.

Broke this out from the W&P forum because it really doesn't belong there and we've shit up the Syndicate thread enough already.

At any rate, let's take this in order. Dessies are relatively slow, but a scram or web on a Tornado will keep it in range for more than long enough to kill it. AFs/Rifters have no excuse for not being as fast as a Tornado, and can easily keep up with them if they do try to burn to range. Also I don't know if you've ever shot at a moving frigate with 1400s, but you should try it sometime for reference.

Nano ships had also goddamn better be able to keep up with them. Vagabond/Cynabal gangs will get hit a bit more, but they also put out more damage so the Tornados die faster while they're in range.

The rest of your concern seems to be that Tornados are good at disengaging, which is true. So are a lot of other fleet comps. The ability to disengage is built into all successful fleet compositions (with varying degrees of success), whether that means orbiting a gate with an afterburner and your logi until you can deaggress and jump, or nano'ing out of a bubble and warping away. As with all PvP you can theorycraft as much as you want on paper, but the performance of your fleet in space will ultimately depend on a) the quality of your pilots and b) the ability of the FC to shape the fight in your favor. Of course you can think up situations where Tornados plink away at shiptype X with impunity, but how likely are you to encounter those exact circumstances during actual combat? And once you have, how likely is it that the enemy FC just sits on his ass and doesn't try to change the parameters of the fight?

tl;dr there are counters to nearly every tactic in space combat, but you need to put pilots in space to make them work. Tornados are no exception.

[prometheus]

Crucifiers/Sentinels/Arbitrators/Pilgrims/Curses with TD Range rigs & Proteus links.
They'll have to be beyond 150km to actually be able to hit anything.

[Varcaus]

Crucifiers/Sentinels/Arbitrators/Pilgrims/Curses with TD Range rigs & Proteus links.
They'll have to be beyond 150km to actually be able to hit anything.

How many Crucifiers/Sentinels/Arbitrators/Pilgrims/Curses is needed to each tornado?

[kyrieee]

If you're fighting over a strategic objective like a POS or station then use a lot of dictors and spread out inties while the main fleet does its thing. If a Tornado fleet comes close enough to be able to alpha something then you should have enough tacklers that you take a lot of Tornados with you each driveby. If you're just roaming then make them jump into you, other wise just don't fight them. The combination of high alpha, agility and scan res means that a Tornado fleet can keep killing ships and then run away without you being able to do much about it.

[Ruri]

Crucifiers/Sentinels/Arbitrators/Pilgrims/Curses with TD Range rigs & Proteus links.
They'll have to be beyond 150km to actually be able to hit anything.

How many Crucifiers/Sentinels/Arbitrators/Pilgrims/Curses is needed to each tornado?

One bonused TD will hobble a Tornado, two will reduce it's pilot to tears. If they're counting on ALPHA that means high damage ammo at their optimal + maybe 25-30% of falloff. A Tornado that tries to operate at the same range as the rest of it's fleet with a bonused and skilled range TD on it will find it's usefulness reduced significantly. The downside to TD recons is they're either comically slow (Pilgrim) or the most obvious primary on the field (Curse) and any half-competent Tornado fleet will have it's own anti-frig/recon support.

I suppose you could do an all bonused-TD fleet but the second a pack of Drakes comes along you're toast so that makes it sort of gimmicky.

[Shiodome]

stabber fleet issues. t3's are their natural prey. :-P for larger tornado gangs have found fast armour HACs to be fine (i.e a armour hac gang running t2 skirmish links), decent skilled deimos's have been fine at running them down killing a few before the rest bail.

eg:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12045690
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12054016

is hard to spread tackle though when all the tornado's are burning, you kill what you can and take the win i guess. i'm sure better pilots and better ahac gang comps could do better, we just like those ships (it's a corp history thing).

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Dualpropped deimos' with either eos (proteus) bonused arazu or curse support (arazu for less obvious). Add in a couple of armor rapiers which get warpins as the deimos close and spread webs throughout the 'nados.

Obviously works better with TD-curses but there's a good chance they might run away from you.

edit: A use for information warfare links. How bout dat.

[Shiodome]

i kind of disagree, as has been mentioned tornado gangs have oodles of gtfo ability, and are generally 40km+ away at the start of a fight. it isn't just about bringing the absolute best stuff for fucking with them, as they will just leave and not fight you and there's nothing you can do about it. gotta find an approach that will encourage them to engage... my current #1 choice for this is ishtars, trying to get my corp to reship to them atm. ishtar can fit as good a tank as any AHAC, and with curators and 'spare mids' (dual prop, TD, damp, drone link, remote eccm, whatever...) seems a possible approach that won't immediatley ring alarm bells for most tornado gangs.

i know 'engageability' is important for any comp, but against gangs that can more easily disengage it's an even higher priority.

[Bacchanalian]

http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=62734

These bombers only managed two drive-bys while we were looting the field, but they literally instapopped the Tornados before they could even align off once they saw the redboxes. If we'd have stuck around on field after their second drive-by, we'd have lost another Tornado for each volley. Trick being, you'd have to find a way to hold down the Tornado fleet. But yeah, we couldn't lock the bombers fast enough to do piss-all to them.

[Sponk]

Ha, I'd like to see the fraps of a tornado gang warping into an Ishtar gang with sentries all assisting the FC and seeing who wins the sniping contest.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=62734

These bombers only managed two drive-bys while we were looting the field, but they literally instapopped the Tornados before they could even align off once they saw the redboxes. If we'd have stuck around on field after their second drive-by, we'd have lost another Tornado for each volley. Trick being, you'd have to find a way to hold down the Tornado fleet. But yeah, we couldn't lock the bombers fast enough to do piss-all to them.Yeah but again the key here is that you gtfo. As with any bomber strategy, the inconsistency of your presence on the field is a HUGE drawback.


Now, if you KNOW your opponent is going all-1400mm tornados (more or less), you could fit TDing / ABing / Loki-boosted bombers and warp them in to the middle of pack. Every bomber can point and TD a different Tornado (use the "closest to your own name" distribution for ewar mods) and then it would be a race to see if the tornados could starburst fast enough to gtfo and/or kill, or the bombers could pop the tornados. Manti/Neme would be good for this (TD/TP/Point mids) to TP the primary.



I also tried ishtars. Specifically I tried Blasters / Dualprop / 2xTD / Point mids, armor tanked lows. With Loki+Prot boosting, the tornados would have an absymal time hitting. Add in halo / x -instinct for moar sig bonus. I'm not convinced that the tornados would engage this fleet however.

[Shiodome]

hmmm, i don't like to fly comp THAT specifically against one type of fleet. lot of wasted mids when you run into the other 50% of eve (drake blobs). but yeah equal numbers probably wouldn't engage, but i already know 6-8 deimos/onerios gang will get a fight out of 10-15 tornado/scimi gangs (and will do well enough), and wouldn't expect swapping deimos to ishtar to change that too much.

i forget, what are the drawbacks of x-instinct?

[Bacchanalian]

Speed, falloff, and I can't remember the other two. I might be wrong though.

[Sponk]

i forget, what are the drawbacks of x-instinct?


armor amount, missile velocity, shield amount, turret falloff

[Bacchanalian]

I got falloff right anyway.

[Sudden]

If you can force a tornado gang to jump into a gang/bubble they are pretty easy prey for bombers as they burn for freedom. They key is to force them to jump through.

[depili]

Maels or Tempests do really well against tornados, they have equal range, few of them will 1-volley a tornado and they take many tornados to 1-volley.

[n0th]

I've written it somewhere else already: trollface-snypa Tornados with no tank is just as much of a fleet comp as welpcanes are. All this fleet can do is blap from safe ranges and proceed to sit at a tactical smugging about how they ownz0ned your newbie tacklers/recons.

They get raped by heavy tanked stuff - PL style rail Rokhs, alphastrike BS, RR sentry Domis etc. They get raped by close-range stuff if you get a proper warp-in and manage to actually tackle.
We have a nice fleet comp for this which is also a lot of fun to fly - dualprop damp Sacrileges w/ Oneiros support. Guy who theorycrafted and used to FC it (the couple of times we could actually form up) left for LoL though :(
Anything ABing/sigtanking is p much a hard counter in terms of tanking (tanked alpha from 80+ Artyabaddons in my 4-slot tanked alphastrike Loki, 'sup)
Pulse shield Oracles w/ bonused ewar (damp Lachs for example) could work too, given proper piloting/FCing.

If we're talking smaller gangs (<15) Arty Tornados are even worse. You still need to rely on your opponents wanting to fight you plus you cant even reliably alpha shit.

[Lallante]

Surely pretty much anything with a little buffer and good DPS and range or speed will beat tornados.

F.ex an equal number of Hellcats - you'll have killed 4-5 tornados per loss before they even get their second volley off.

Bombers

Tempest/Maels

Rokhs

AB hacs (with a good warpin)

Frig gangs

Pretty much anything except drakes and mwd Hacs/t3s really

[Gesadt]

yeap long range BSes (maels, rokhs, etc) will roll nados just fine

[glepp]

If you're not flying tanky snipers, it's a matter of tackle versus tank.

If you can tackle enough of them at close range (provided favorable fighting terms) that the ones that burn off cannot alpha through your logistics, you win. If you can't, you lose.

[AndersonW]

In your guy's opinion how often does the Alliance FLYING said fleets matter in your attempt to counter fleets. Granted to beat a tornado fleet, unless you comp for it you have to use some good manuvering to defeat them but if your like set against an Alliance that obviously isnt scrub does that matter when your deciding to fight or not?

For example... United. RR BS gang is a pretty good gang. So me as an FC would prolly think twice before engaging unless I was sure we had a shot. Is this the case for some of you? Like I think glepp said... that they would do well 6-8 Oneiros/diemos vs 10-15 Tornados... my question is would it matter if it was Alliance A or Alliance B?

[glepp]

6-8 scram fit armor tanked MWD/AB HACs, with enough logi support and tank to withstand the alpha from 7-8 Tornados, could theoretically take on and beat a 15 man tornado gang provided the following:
1. Fight starts at zero (or at least within OH scram range minus a few km)
2. Each and every HAC manages to tackle a separate Tornado and hold it down.

#1 is hard against a skilled opponent.
#2 is hard to coordinate and even harder to execute properly.

So it's a high risk as tornados are dirt cheap and most will probably gtfo. If you agress, fail to tackle and they burn off, then a couple of your ships will probably die to alpha while deagressing. with 6-8 HACs against 20-25 Alphanados, it's not worth it, because regardless of how many of you land scram, your opponent will have enough alpha to nuke you down anyway. What you don't want is a kiting/chasing battle against an opponent that has enough ships left to alpha you. It's also a matter of support ships on the Tornado side, with enough Rapiers/Huginns, they can lock down a large part of your fleet and increase the alpha damage quite a bit (webs/paints). So yeah, a DP Deimos fleet can take the fight, but only under perfect conditions and with semi-similar numbers.

Against a skilled opponent like Rote, I'd be cautions getting into the fight and always leave myself a chance to gtfo if unsuccessful. I'd imagine Rote doing the same and most of the fight being a dance for positioning until one side goes "feckit, let's just go for it" or "feckit, not happening today".

As for RRBS, it depends on their range. If close range, then an Alphanado fleet should wipe the floor with them, provided decent numbers.

[AndersonW]

6-8 scram fit armor tanked MWD/AB HACs, with enough logi support and tank to withstand the alpha from 7-8 Tornados, could theoretically take on and beat a 15 man tornado gang provided the following:
1. Fight starts at zero (or at least within OH scram range minus a few km)
2. Each and every HAC manages to tackle a separate Tornado and hold it down.

#1 is hard against a skilled opponent.
#2 is hard to coordinate and even harder to execute properly.

So it's a high risk as tornados are dirt cheap and most will probably gtfo. If you agress, fail to tackle and they burn off, then a couple of your ships will probably die to alpha while deagressing. with 6-8 HACs against 20-25 Alphanados, it's not worth it, because regardless of how many of you land scram, your opponent will have enough alpha to nuke you down anyway. What you don't want is a kiting/chasing battle against an opponent that has enough ships left to alpha you. It's also a matter of support ships on the Tornado side, with enough Rapiers/Huginns, they can lock down a large part of your fleet and increase the alpha damage quite a bit (webs/paints). So yeah, a DP Deimos fleet can take the fight, but only under perfect conditions and with semi-similar numbers.

Against a skilled opponent like Rote, I'd be cautions getting into the fight and always leave myself a chance to gtfo if unsuccessful. I'd imagine Rote doing the same and most of the fight being a dance for positioning until one side goes "feckit, let's just go for it" or "feckit, not happening today".

As for RRBS, it depends on their range. If close range, then an Alphanado fleet should wipe the floor with them, provided decent numbers.

I wasnt as much comparing the RR BS vs Tornado gang as much an RR bs gang vs RR BS with the alliance or party involved factoring into the psychological aspect of the engagement.

[glepp]

Ah right.

Well, if you're planning on taking on someone you know to be skilled, especially with the same setup or one that's not a direct counter to you/you are not a direct counter to, then yes, you take that into account. Not saying "THESE GUYS ARE GOOD, DON'T ENGAGE BECAUSE OF EVEN NUMBERS", more like, "Yeah, these guys are good, so be on your toes, gentlemen." You also take into account whether you're likely to get hotdropped.

Thought this was a discussion about The World vs Tornados though...

[Pattern]

Fascinating thread, and pretty much showing where I thought we'd be right now. Who was it who said that the Talos was the best of the bunch again?

Arties need a bit of a nerf or frigs need a bit of a boost tbh. It would be no problem at all if a gang of ceptors 99 times out of 100, took no damage sensibly approaching any large turret, sniper gang at range.

[Shiodome]

talos is the best for adding to a mixed comp shield fleet (you know the, "hey let's roam" "what we bringing?" "oh, shield nano..."). tornado is better in a gang built specifically around it, and i'm not even sure that's true because i haven't seen people even try 15 talos + support (holy fuck dps). i know at least in my small corp we just have had more tornado pilots than talos pilots from day 1, not because they were better, but because winmatar has been winmatar for ages, so more people had t2 large AC than t2 large blasters. but we don't generally bother bringing lone tornado's in 'mixed bag fleets' because those pilots are normally better off bringing something else. (whilst there's rarely anything better than a talos that someone could bring :D )

or to put it another way, corp funds talos's but you can buy your own tornados :lol:

*really wants a talos gang now*

also, the issue with mwd'ing armour HACs vs tornado's isn't so much the alpha, it's the 'chase' leaving the oneiros behind. we've found we can keep everyone alive pretty easily, but that by the time the deimos' have caught the tornado's the logi's are lagging dangerously behind. a few time's we've had to slow down and lose the chance to tackle to keep reps running.


6-8 scram fit armor tanked MWD/AB HACs, with enough logi support and tank to withstand the alpha from 7-8 Tornados, could theoretically take on and beat a 15 man tornado gang provided the following:
1. Fight starts at zero (or at least within OH scram range minus a few km)
2. Each and every HAC manages to tackle a separate Tornado and hold it down.

this isn't really true. in every fight i've had vs tornado's we've started 30-50km away from them, it's tough but starting at 0km isnt a prerequisite. though i dunno whether you mean '15 man tornado gang' as '15 tornados + support' or 'tornado's + support equalling 15 guys'. because fuck burning into the alpha of 15 tornado's >_<

regarding the quality of the opposition, yeah it kind of matters.

against bads, somehow we always seem to be able to get onto and take out their hugins and scimi's quickly... a better quality of player/alliance just doesn't give you that chance (or at least you'd hope not). bads are entirely capable of losing track of their distance from things while concentrating on webing/repping etc, and you can take advantage of that. against an entity with a repuation for competence i wouldn't expect to get those opportunitie and probs wouldn't engage unless we were gifted an opportunity (like scimi's/range control being at 0km to a celestial, or near a wreck etc).

[glepp]

I was thinking 15 Alphanados + support. Burning into that alpha is pretty ballsy... 10 + support is a bit less dangerous.

[Ruri]

ANDERSON STOP HIJACKING THREADS GODDAMMIT


Arties need a bit of a nerf or frigs need a bit of a boost tbh. It would be no problem at all if a gang of ceptors 99 times out of 100, took no damage sensibly approaching any large turret, sniper gang at range.

Dunno what your experience is like, but we have a king-hell-bitch of a time trying to hit Drams that approach us for warp-ins even when the fuckers are painted and webbed. 99 times out of 100 it should be the Tornado's support fleet that's killing frigates, not the Tornados themselves. We (Rote) might not fly with enough raw numbers for lucky hits to accumulate meaningfully. Do arties really hit frigates that well en mass?

[Shiodome]

no, they don't. assuming approaching via at least some kind of angle it's not really an issue for frigs to get tackle on unsupported tornado's. huggins obviously make a difference there, but that's nothing to do with frigs not being good enough at the role.

[Pattern]

no, they don't. assuming approaching via at least some kind of angle it's not really an issue for frigs to get tackle on unsupported tornado's. huggins obviously make a difference there, but that's nothing to do with frigs not being good enough at the role.

If the pilot flying the tornado is dumb and does little to counter ceptor transversal then no, it's not an issue. But I usually look at things from the pov of what happens when both pilots know how to fly their ships. Combine that with recon webs/tps and well, yeah...

[AndersonW]

M8

On the contrary, with the aspect of metagaming/theorycrafting/consistancy and frequent use of gangs coupled with the prevelance of said gang and experience with those gangs by the individuals using them its a pretty legitimate question. The psychological aspect of any fleet is significantly an influencer of fleet fights. Even the most well thought out and effective strategy or comp could fail due to mentality/stress/fear/apprehension/error of the opposing fleet.

For instance, if you were fighting Alliance A who is known for hotdropping all of the time, you may fly your fleet DIFFERENTLY than you would in an attempt to fight them. Maybe not warp to 0, maybe use a drag bubble. If Alliance A is nortorious for fitting damps onto thier gangs, would you not plan accordingly? Maybe ECM. These variables can limit or hinder your want/desire to get involved in conflicts with other groups off the sheer chance of a variable you cannot account for nor comp against. The example being hot drops.

In addition the fear of a loss may override your want to attempt to take on said fleet especially if your not perfectly comped for them. The example would be like AHACs vs Tornado fleet without the appropriate speed mod/recon/position to engage playing in the favor of the AHAC gang. This is a prime example of a HUGE advantage in the way of the tornado fleet especially if they can dictate distance.


The perfect example happened recently when the IRED/SEDI gang in some BCs with a more bulk DPS/Range Oracle/Naga gang engaged a ROTE AHAC gang with Guardian support and the Ahacs some having mwds and some having ABs. This is textbook disadvantage for the Ahac gang considering the IRED/SEDI gang came in at range and we gave chase. The Variables being our ability to tackle, hold them there, maintane reps, isolate thier tackle, any Recons being present we cant get to because of our inability to hit at farther range and or burn.. and so on. This could disuade even some confident FCs into attempting an OBVIOUSLY dangerous fleet manuver to attack and even kill the Ranged DPS gang. However our FC attempted it, and due to an excellent webbing loki, Logistics doing thier best to keep us alive, and some luck we did a better job than maybe I would have expected. This is a serious example where mindset, and the FC play an almost as large a role in success than Fleet comp.

Another example is when I fc'd a SEDI gang and we landed ontop a BS/BC gang that had double our numbers and scorpions on the field. Normally my gang had a numerous disadvantages but variables such as IRED's help, my expierence, some serious luck and a huge blunder on the side of the opposing fleet led us to a pretty great victory. If your not willing to fight an opposing fleet, or worried you cant win because of who your fighting, theres ALMOST no point.

The connection I was making or maybe the point I was leaning towards was, if a gang was more commonly using a fleet type I.E. tornados and you were flying in an AHAC gang, you may avoid fighting that gang because of several factors such as the fear of loss and the odds playing too much OUT of your favor. The inevitable fact is you can decide on the best course of action all day, you can give them the tools, you can get the CHANCE.. if you cant pull the trigger which is a mindset that I think is the real problem here especially verse a gang like Tornados. If you know that the people your fighting are good with thier tactics, or there are too many variables you cant comp for/cant out manuver then you may regardless of even the best comp attempt to fight the other fleet. Fights are not won by comp alone, they are won and lost primarily by the FC and by his fleet. Thier ability, and his expierence/nerve, and just alittle luck.

This is a problem that plagues all gangs and fleet, "the other gang is out in thier "leet" comp we better not chance it... " that IMO is a huge problem in countering another fleet in any capacity. Your not accounting for the other gang, mistakes they could make, things you may not be aware of and variables you havent accounted for. TO ME that is the single most important part of the equation or really the biggest answer to the question what can you counter a tornado fleet with.


Are you willing to try?


Now you can say how is this relevant, or well after this thread we KNOW how to defeat them! SO NOW WE CAN. I say I don't believe that yet, and I want you to prove me wrong. If it was merely not being specific on the tactics why is it there are so many "obvious" counters to the Tornado fleets present in this thread and no one has tried ANY of them on a tornado fleet, especially against us? Agony says they have.. I admire they tried it and were successful against the PIZZA gang! Awesome! It shows the tactic isnt fullproof.. but why the other night did they not try against Rote? Numbers were close enough that I think Agony had a real shot. Now you can say what you want, but if Im wrong and Mindset/targeted enemy is NOT as big a factor as i think it is.. then Agony would have fought Rote the other night in S-U. Thats definitly not a jab at Agony, thier "Tweed" gang seems well thought out and effective. I trust in thier ability to fly it and fight other gangs even at a disadvantage. But there is alot to this from a Psychological aspect, the fact we feel we have to gimp ourselves with Welp fleets/no logi or like Rooks and Kings. Maldor is Brilliant and his fleets are highly effective, that thought alone scares enough FCs into avoiding them that NO one is ever going to truely know what can counter it or even wether thier fleet is really that good. Ninja's attemped and 6 bil Bhaalgorn down.

So Ruri you said I hijacked, I really just think I asked the deeper question and maybe hit at the strongest problem associated with Tornado fleets. Rote flies them.. they are good at them.. does that impact your ability or desire to fight against it. Nough said.. *pant*

[glepp]

To answer andersons question, since it is well thought out and deserves a reply: at least from my prespective:

There is a huge difference between the gang we took on PIZZA with and the gang you faced in S-U. First of all, we had numbers around 25 against Pizza, who were brave and decided to face us with about 20 people in total, half of them in thrashers. Kudos to them for engaging. In S-U, i believe there were 5 Deimoses and a Muninn against your 20-30 man Tornado gang. Secondly, our fleet against PIZZA had a Proteus and two webbing Lokis, meaning we actually had a chance to catch kiters without relying on scrams. Thirdly, the fight against Pizza was at gates, leaving us with a GTFO ability should things go sour. Yeah, we know that you guys have more experience with the gang, but the reason the fight was declined in S-U (without me being there) was primarily about the two gang comps, not psychology. Sadly, your US TZ is bigger than ours, while our EU TZ is the same to yours. Like i said in my previous comment, if the opposing Alphanado gang has enough Alpha to kill you while chasing or regardless of how many you tackle on a gate, then there really is no point to engaging, now is there? At least against an opponent that you know knows how to fly these gangs.

Against PIZZA, they were reforming and we were setting up for round two with a better lineup for them, numbers wise, but then we had the misfortune of accidentallying their bonus Loki, so no fight for us. I won't mind testing Tweed against Alphanados, but I won't take the fight unless I think we can win it. My decision to take the fight depends more on getting favorable terms in the form of positioning and fleet comps than whether we are fighting Rote, someone totally bad or someone unknown. We don't really care who you are as long as we're reasonably sure we won't get hotdropped to death.

[ROX Genghis]

I think I can address the issue of the non-fight in S-U. It was essentially the same matchup (in both fleet comps and numbers) as another fight we'd had with Rote a few days earlier: http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=65605. In that earlier engagement, we couldn't catch any Tornadoes, but the Tornadoes were able to alpha our ships, so we were forced to jump out. Brent even acknowledged the mismatch at the time, saying in local "hold on, we'll come back with something you can fight." Which was pretty cool of him.

So, when we had a similar situation in S-U, I think our FC realized it wouldn't even be a goodfight, just a slaughter. I've seen Bamar leeroy us into Rote in the past for goodfights (http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=59081) and I know he's not very risk-averse, so he must have thought it was a pretty bad situation. In fact, he was right: it was worse than the earlier fight because it was not on a gate (so we couldn't deaggro and jump out), but rather on a Rote shield repping carrier (so even if we could catch a Tornado, we couldn't have killed it). I think nobody in their right mind would have taken that fight. But I understand how it looked from Rote's POV: with Agony as just one of three forces in the system, they probably felt pretty outnumbered.

[AndersonW]

Thanks glepp, no matter what I say in local I have alot of respect for anyone who works on being proficent at a fleet comp. And I love the diemos.

And yeah Brent is pretty win imo.

What about a Lachesis, I know armor :(, but either that or some Diemos with some damps to take enough of the Tornados out of the fight you eliminate enough Alpha that you can rep through it?

[Shiodome]

why is it there are so many "obvious" counters to the Tornado fleets present in this thread and no one has tried ANY of them on a tornado fleet

what? :|

and why lachesis when the arazu has the extra low o_O

[AndersonW]

why is it there are so many "obvious" counters to the Tornado fleets present in this thread and no one has tried ANY of them on a tornado fleet

what? :|

and why lachesis when the arazu has the extra low o_O


OK well then if you wanna try the Arazu.. But the Lach has more mids for mOAR damps.

[glepp]

Personally, I'd rather find another gang to fight than gimp my setup to be able to counter one particular gang type. If you need tracks or damps, bring a couple of Ishtars instead of Arazus. More tank and they actually deal damage.

[Ruri]

The whole idea was that you don't need specific counters to win against Tornados, you just need to not be a gimmick setup and use good space tactics.

"Winning" spans many conditions from simply not letting the enemy get kills to keeping them out of a particular system to completely destroying every ship and their pods. In order to kill Tornados you need to meet a few criteria, but there are even more ways to drive them off.

[Bacchanalian]

m8s Tornados are uncounterable and everyone who flies and expect anyone to fight them ever are idiots.

[Cue1*]

Would not a few Maels do an excellent job of taking on a larger number of 'nados? Obviously there's a point in which the alpha becomes strong enough to take down even a well tanked Mael, but any engagement under that point is going to end up in favor of the Maels. 8ish Maels should do an amazing job of taking on 15ish Tornados. Add in a bait bubbler and maybe a webber or two you should be able to hold enough down to stop the gang's effectiveness and force them home, if not all out break them.

[Rampro.]

Ahacs with damps , all damps on their webbers .
Would they be able to hit the hacs?

[glepp]

Ahacs with damps , all damps on their webbers .
Would they be able to hit the hacs?

Maybe not if the AHACs AB at 90 degree angle, but what's the point in that? Won't catch stuff you don't chase.

[Rampro.]

u wont die, cant kill what u cant hit.

ud maybe catch 2-3 with ur lokis or get them as they jump through a gate.

idk just putting it out there

see where they are alligned too rinse and repeat.

[RoemySchneider]

taranis fleets!

[Tyrus Tenebros]

taranis fleets!

Enyo fleet with loki boosts does more damage.

[Varcaus]

taranis fleets!

Enyo fleet with loki boosts does more damage.

Less ecm drones

[Shiodome]

so we're agreed then, ishkur fleet.

[Varcaus]

so we're agreed then, ishkur fleet.

C

[Celedris]

ArtyNados are designed specifically for small gangs to counter ECM and slow, short-range, heavy logistics fleets, and they can engage heavily outnumbered against those fleets if flown well. The nice thing is that it doesn't matter how much logistics/carriers your opponent brings - they could have a third of their gang in Guardians (we see this frequently) or cyno-in a bunch of triage and it doesn't matter one bit.

Things it can't beat at all, no matter what the circumstances are:
1) Maelstrom fleet, no matter how poorly flown (they don't even need to call targets!)
2) Any mixed long-rage BS fleet flown with a modicum of competency
3) AB Tengus

Things that can engage it on favorable terms, depending on circumstances:
4) Mixed tier-3 snipers
5) AF fleets
6) Cynabal gang flown well
7) Drake fleet starting at close range/warp-in
8) Nano-pests at close range (nados can't pull enough range fast enough before they are all dead)
9) RR Domis at close range (just kill a dozen nados and then de-agro when they run out of bouncer range)
10) Thrasher fleet engaging on gate or with a warp-in (might not hold field, but you'll have 95% efficiency!)


The idea that nothing can go up against Tornados is absurd. It's good for fighting outnumbered against heavy logistics, good against canes/ahacs, good against triage, good against falcons/rooks, and it's good for alpha-ganking people on stations. That's about it.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Again the problem presented in this thread is actually KILLING the tornados.

It's quite easy to field a fleet that the nados refuse to engage because they will obviously die, but it's also very hard to actually trap them.

[Sponk]

Sounds like all nano fleets?

[Sudden]

It's good for fighting outnumbered against heavy logistics, good against canes/ahacs, good against triage, good against falcons/rooks...

Way to list 90% of non-shit gangs out there



Sounds like all nano fleets?


But nano fleets have a hard time killing things that do not want to fight them aka logi-balls

[Smuggo]

Again the problem presented in this thread is actually KILLING the tornados.

It's quite easy to field a fleet that the nados refuse to engage because they will obviously die, but it's also very hard to actually trap them.

C

I've had numerous occasions where people just bounced their arty tornados around between ping spots and not much you really do to catch them so long as they're not stupid and warp to one that's too close to you.#

Of course I've also had lots of fun playing around with terrible gatecamps by warping an arty tornado on grid and popping frigates/dictors.

[Jade Constantine]

I don't think there is a direct counter.

(ie a way of defeating these groups in an up front face to face even numbers fight while holding them on the field)

The maelstrom / ranged tanked battleships will not be able to hold the tornado group in the fight and most likely a competant Tornado group would be able to warp in, align out and shoot a support ship from the battleship group while spinning up to warp out immediately. (or just not fight in the first place).

Its a very guerilla concept and quite annoying to fight.

Personally I'd put an equal number of pilots in bombers with ab+extender+scram,web (ie nemesis manticores) and keep them cloaked while a prober tries to find the ready point for the tornados. Obviously the tornado group will see the probes and keep warping about but hopefully eventually they get sloppy. The huge advantage of the bombers is the fact they can warp cloaked to the probe trace (ie the tornado's have no warning of incoming ships) and no decloak delay (leading to near instant tackle) - if done currently each bomber gets to point a different tornado with scram and web and at close range ab orbit the bombers will be immune to immediate counter action (unpointed tornados will need to mwd away or warp out and back in at range again to hit).

I think there is only one of two potential true counters to the tornados -

1. is "more tornados" (and win the quick draw mgraw battle but I imagine quickly one side will just run - seeing as how even a "tanked" tornado is 20,000 ish effective. You could just forgo all tank and cram the counter tornados with sensor boosters for first strike - as long as the enemy isn't being uber efficiency and having everyone pick a different target that might work)

2. is the "covert cloak equipped bombers with web and scram" to point as much as possible by surprise

But the latter (bomber based solution) is probably the better because the threat of it will wierd out the tornados anyway and force them to dilute their formation to involve anti tacklers and anti bomber protection stuff.

Its a cat and mouse thing, and does depend on the tornados getting a bit lazy and not constantly warping between ready points - but while they are doing that (and tiring) your ready bombers can be chilling and playing tanks ready for the moment to strike.

Of course easier said than done :)

You need a decent prober - and a critical mass of properly equipped bombers / trying to half ass it with a mix of random fit bombers will lead to fiasco. And the tornados themselves can counter the counter by mixing up some high dps interceptors into their formation.

Ah well, nothing in life is perfect.

[Ripper548]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

[Ripper548]

Personally, I am of the opinion that had they been active PL probably could have countered the fleet by lighting one of their cynoes and bringing in overwhelming force....but even with the ability to specifically refit to fight them it is incredibly difficult to take on a 20+ person tornado fleet w/ triage support with only 5-10 people....I don't think it can be done at all.

[Smuggo]

Probably should have read OP, didn't realise it was a retarded Blob Kapelle thread.

[Shin_getter]

(bomber based solution) is probably the better because the threat of it will wierd out the tornados anyway and force them to dilute their formation to involve anti tacklers and anti bomber protection stuff.

You can always do the whole "covert everything" gang with recons, T3s and everything on top of bombers. Since cloaked ships no longer decloak each other, one can run a pretty big blob indeed.

<--- goes to see if a viable covert ops smartbombing T3 gang could be made...no luck yet. Would be extremely funny if it can be done....

[Pattern]

If it could be, I'd be expecting a "Countering Cloak blobs" thread in 3... 2... 1...


Also, I thought the Talos was the best?

[Shin_getter]

Personally, I am of the opinion that had they been active PL probably could have countered the fleet by lighting one of their cynoes and bringing in overwhelming force....but even with the ability to specifically refit to fight them it is incredibly difficult to take on a 20+ person tornado fleet w/ triage support with only 5-10 people....I don't think it can be done at all.

10x Carriers with RR chains and 3x omni each for warden ii countersniping :mad: 4500 combined dps should pop them triage or no triage.

[Sudden]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

No one was wondering, Bacch was just playing Devil's Advocate

[Ripper548]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

No one was wondering, Bacch was just playing Devil's Advocate

Bacch's posts were fine, he was dealing with fleet comps in general rather than the specific engagement sparking most of the arguments.......I was referring to that "Namamai" guy actually.

[Gix Tyrionn]

To answer andersons question, since it is well thought out and deserves a reply: at least from my prespective:

There is a huge difference between the gang we took on PIZZA with and the gang you faced in S-U. First of all, we had numbers around 25 against Pizza, who were brave and decided to face us with about 20 people in total, half of them in thrashers. Kudos to them for engaging. In S-U, i believe there were 5 Deimoses and a Muninn against your 20-30 man Tornado gang. Secondly, our fleet against PIZZA had a Proteus and two webbing Lokis, meaning we actually had a chance to catch kiters without relying on scrams. Thirdly, the fight against Pizza was at gates, leaving us with a GTFO ability should things go sour. Yeah, we know that you guys have more experience with the gang, but the reason the fight was declined in S-U (without me being there) was primarily about the two gang comps, not psychology. Sadly, your US TZ is bigger than ours, while our EU TZ is the same to yours. Like i said in my previous comment, if the opposing Alphanado gang has enough Alpha to kill you while chasing or regardless of how many you tackle on a gate, then there really is no point to engaging, now is there? At least against an opponent that you know knows how to fly these gangs.
.

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/179341_o.gif

[AndersonW]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

Are you kidding me? Like are you really going to say every possible contingency that a gang could throw up to aide itself in combat and say.. well pfft course they had that! Why not say... We were going to take out rote's Tornado gang buuuutt... they had recon/titan/supercap/battlerourq/ibisfleet/moreRecons/logitsics/armorlogistics/afgangsupport/batphonehelp/thedamnedcarebearstare Ive been in Rote long enough to never see a triage chimera... so i dont see us dropping one on our own Nado gang. And if you actually knew ANYTHING about ANYONE in that pocket or were apart of ANY group in that pocket.. id cower over my own stupidity as far as ruining a perfectly good thread with multiple inputs heading in a positive and certainly intellectually beneficial direction.

[Rampro.]

arty lokis?

[AndersonW]

arty lokis?

Without the alpha nor the range of BS guns I mean its not a horrendous idea but not really as effective as ARTY nados

[Ripper548]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

Are you kidding me? Like are you really going to say every possible contingency that a gang could throw up to aide itself in combat and say.. well pfft course they had that! Why not say... We were going to take out rote's Tornado gang buuuutt... they had recon/titan/supercap/battlerourq/ibisfleet/moreRecons/logitsics/armorlogistics/afgangsupport/batphonehelp/thedamnedcarebearstare Ive been in Rote long enough to never see a triage chimera... so i dont see us dropping one on our own Nado gang. And if you actually knew ANYTHING about ANYONE in that pocket or were apart of ANY group in that pocket.. id cower over my own stupidity as far as ruining a perfectly good thread with multiple inputs heading in a positive and certainly intellectually beneficial direction.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?5348-Syndicate-21-01-12-ongoing-%28over-a-quarter-of-all-posts-in-this-thread-are-deleted%29/page7

post 131 - in the middle.

I don't care if its your attempt at fail-bait - The Chimera was on the field and would have entered combat had there been any :tumbleweed:


I also like how you assume I was there...I grant I have something of an attachment to syndicate and keep in touch with friends there, and obviously they aren't in Rote so their opinions may be biased....but most of my intel has come from the syndicate thread itself, with some corroboration/added details from eyewitnesses.

That being said, ultimately while your (Rote as a whole, not you in particular) forum whining has been bothering me lately (which is why I posted initially), ultimately I guess its none of my business so I'll go ahead and butt out now.....

Enjoy your forum-warrioring. :obama:

[n0th]

not really as effective as ARTY nados
2 examples of what artylokis can do to roaming gangs
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3125/ (50ish drakes + support)
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3087/ (60ish oracles + support)

Thread is becoming stale. Should be common knowledge that gang vs. gang PvP in eve is consentual, so if you bring a hard counter to a certain gang comp, the enemy FC just wont engage.
Sure there are exceptions like bad scouting/dictor traps/probing faggotry/gang not following orders etc. but thats a different topic.

[Ruri]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

Are you kidding me? Like are you really going to say every possible contingency that a gang could throw up to aide itself in combat and say.. well pfft course they had that! Why not say... We were going to take out rote's Tornado gang buuuutt... they had recon/titan/supercap/battlerourq/ibisfleet/moreRecons/logitsics/armorlogistics/afgangsupport/batphonehelp/thedamnedcarebearstare Ive been in Rote long enough to never see a triage chimera... so i dont see us dropping one on our own Nado gang. And if you actually knew ANYTHING about ANYONE in that pocket or were apart of ANY group in that pocket.. id cower over my own stupidity as far as ruining a perfectly good thread with multiple inputs heading in a positive and certainly intellectually beneficial direction.

:psyduck:

He's referring to the fight that started this whole conversation, where we in fact had Tornados + a Chimera and a Scimitar in S-U to fight a phantom POCO-killing fleet. I mean, my memory is p. terrible, but I do recall the reason I started this thread in the first place.

I wanted to disprove the argument that Tornados are uncounterable, both by normal gangs and tailor-made response fleets. People here have highlighted many ways in which they can be countered, and also what sort of fleets should avoid them. At the end of the day it's a strong meta that takes good piloting to fly right, but it has several glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by a competent PvP entity.

I will admit it's also a thinly veiled attempt to encourage more people in Syndicate not to run away they second they see more than one Rote Tornado in space. We've iterated on this many times in the past, but the simple fact is that Syndicate, being one of the worst regions anywhere for carebearing activities, is really only good for PvP. If all you want to do is mine and PI and run sanctums we can point you to places that are so much more lucrative they'll blow your carebear mind; otherwise, expect to fight.

[n0th]

I will admit it's also a thinly veiled attempt to encourage more people in Syndicate not to run away they second they see more than one Rote Tornado in space. We've iterated on this many times in the past, but the simple fact is that Syndicate, being one of the worst regions anywhere for carebearing activities, is really only good for PvP. If all you want to do is mine and PI and run sanctums we can point you to places that are so much more lucrative they'll blow your carebear mind; otherwise, expect to fight.
"Y U NO FITE ROTE KAPELLE" amirite? ~
Dont know much about Syndicate (especially US-TZ) but judging from the Syndicate thread here and the little info i have (roamed through there in a Slicer not too long ago) you guys are one of the few entities who will actually form up organized gangs at all. Might as well bring something engageable by lol-homedefence formups?

[Ruri]

I will admit it's also a thinly veiled attempt to encourage more people in Syndicate not to run away they second they see more than one Rote Tornado in space. We've iterated on this many times in the past, but the simple fact is that Syndicate, being one of the worst regions anywhere for carebearing activities, is really only good for PvP. If all you want to do is mine and PI and run sanctums we can point you to places that are so much more lucrative they'll blow your carebear mind; otherwise, expect to fight.
"Y U NO FITE ROTE KAPELLE" amirite? ~
Dont know much about Syndicate (especially US-TZ) but judging from the Syndicate thread here and the little info i have (roamed through there in a Slicer not too long ago) you guys are one of the few entities who will actually form up organized gangs at all. Might as well bring something engageable by lol-homedefence formups?

Some of our FCs deliberately run no-logi gangs and simple stuff like welpcanes to appear less threatening. We started comping Tornados to counter the logi meta where a fleet might be comprised of 25% logistics ships, since alpha obviates logistics and the more ships you dedicate to it the fewer you have to do damage or tackle.

[AndersonW]

not really as effective as ARTY nados
2 examples of what artylokis can do to roaming gangs
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3125/ (50ish drakes + support)
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3087/ (60ish oracles + support)

Thread is becoming stale. Should be common knowledge that gang vs. gang PvP in eve is consentual, so if you bring a hard counter to a certain gang comp, the enemy FC just wont engage.
Sure there are exceptions like bad scouting/dictor traps/probing faggotry/gang not following orders etc. but thats a different topic.

Do you know what range they were fighting at? And was it alpha or DPS that took them out. Im kinda impressed, and kinda would like to look into ARTY lokis further

[Vasponger]

not really as effective as ARTY nados
2 examples of what artylokis can do to roaming gangs
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3125/ (50ish drakes + support)
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3087/ (60ish oracles + support)

Thread is becoming stale. Should be common knowledge that gang vs. gang PvP in eve is consentual, so if you bring a hard counter to a certain gang comp, the enemy FC just wont engage.
Sure there are exceptions like bad scouting/dictor traps/probing faggotry/gang not following orders etc. but thats a different topic.


oracles were armor tanked.. those shouldnt count

[Mfume]

Should be common knowledge that gang vs. gang PvP in eve is consentual, so if you bring a hard counter to a certain gang comp, the enemy FC just wont engage.

Yep, exactly.


"Y U NO FITE ROTE KAPELLE" amirite? ~

Stealing our motto =S

[n0th]

oracles were armor tanked.. those shouldnt count
Fits are p terrible yes. Still, 60 Oracles should 2-volley Guardians with good focus fire. And after that its a matter of tackling and owning aggroed T3s.
What -A- did there is orbit gate and try to track sigtanking lokis w/ MPLs while losing 6 ships/minute.

I can link 2 of the more adrenaline-inducing fights
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3034/
Here -A- leeroyed their Logis into us at some point (in their BR they say that their anchor desynced; and manual piloting of a logistic ship is impossible obviously).
http://kb.ds-alliance.com/battle/b3357/
Here our FC had a short convo with SF so we could actually engage. SF p much had us as meatshield the whole fight though.

[Bacchanalian]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

Are you kidding me? Like are you really going to say every possible contingency that a gang could throw up to aide itself in combat and say.. well pfft course they had that! Why not say... We were going to take out rote's Tornado gang buuuutt... they had recon/titan/supercap/battlerourq/ibisfleet/moreRecons/logitsics/armorlogistics/afgangsupport/batphonehelp/thedamnedcarebearstare Ive been in Rote long enough to never see a triage chimera... so i dont see us dropping one on our own Nado gang. And if you actually knew ANYTHING about ANYONE in that pocket or were apart of ANY group in that pocket.. id cower over my own stupidity as far as ruining a perfectly good thread with multiple inputs heading in a positive and certainly intellectually beneficial direction.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?5348-Syndicate-21-01-12-ongoing-%28over-a-quarter-of-all-posts-in-this-thread-are-deleted%29/page7

post 131 - in the middle.

I don't care if its your attempt at fail-bait - The Chimera was on the field and would have entered combat had there been any :tumbleweed:


I also like how you assume I was there...I grant I have something of an attachment to syndicate and keep in touch with friends there, and obviously they aren't in Rote so their opinions may be biased....but most of my intel has come from the syndicate thread itself, with some corroboration/added details from eyewitnesses.

That being said, ultimately while your (Rote as a whole, not you in particular) forum whining has been bothering me lately (which is why I posted initially), ultimately I guess its none of my business so I'll go ahead and butt out now.....

Enjoy your forum-warrioring. :obama:

Wasn't a triage Chimera fwiw.

[Cue1*]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

Are you kidding me? Like are you really going to say every possible contingency that a gang could throw up to aide itself in combat and say.. well pfft course they had that! Why not say... We were going to take out rote's Tornado gang buuuutt... they had recon/titan/supercap/battlerourq/ibisfleet/moreRecons/logitsics/armorlogistics/afgangsupport/batphonehelp/thedamnedcarebearstare Ive been in Rote long enough to never see a triage chimera... so i dont see us dropping one on our own Nado gang. And if you actually knew ANYTHING about ANYONE in that pocket or were apart of ANY group in that pocket.. id cower over my own stupidity as far as ruining a perfectly good thread with multiple inputs heading in a positive and certainly intellectually beneficial direction.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?5348-Syndicate-21-01-12-ongoing-%28over-a-quarter-of-all-posts-in-this-thread-are-deleted%29/page7

post 131 - in the middle.

I don't care if its your attempt at fail-bait - The Chimera was on the field and would have entered combat had there been any :tumbleweed:


I also like how you assume I was there...I grant I have something of an attachment to syndicate and keep in touch with friends there, and obviously they aren't in Rote so their opinions may be biased....but most of my intel has come from the syndicate thread itself, with some corroboration/added details from eyewitnesses.

That being said, ultimately while your (Rote as a whole, not you in particular) forum whining has been bothering me lately (which is why I posted initially), ultimately I guess its none of my business so I'll go ahead and butt out now.....

Enjoy your forum-warrioring. :obama:

Wasn't a triage Chimera fwiw.

A lone carrier in space is most likely to be a triage carrier, can you blame anyone if they thought it was?

[AndersonW]

This thread has gone in circles and come up with some strange suggestions considering the entire topic actually came up due to a certain alliance wondering why nobody would engage their 15-20 tornadoes + logi support + triage carrier with 4 (non-aligned) entities in pocket ranging from 1/2 the numbers of the tornado fleet to less than 1/4 their numbers....And with only 1 of the groups in question being "local" as it were so that refitting might be a possibility...

So the questions that are relevant to the original topic are:
-What random roaming fleet *not* assembled to fight tornadoes can counter a tornado fleet w/ support of over twice their size
-What could the 5-10 locals (whom I can neither confirm/deny were mostly afk at the time anyway) have reshipped to to take on a tornado fleet w/ normal + triage support of roughly 4x their size?

Are you kidding me? Like are you really going to say every possible contingency that a gang could throw up to aide itself in combat and say.. well pfft course they had that! Why not say... We were going to take out rote's Tornado gang buuuutt... they had recon/titan/supercap/battlerourq/ibisfleet/moreRecons/logitsics/armorlogistics/afgangsupport/batphonehelp/thedamnedcarebearstare Ive been in Rote long enough to never see a triage chimera... so i dont see us dropping one on our own Nado gang. And if you actually knew ANYTHING about ANYONE in that pocket or were apart of ANY group in that pocket.. id cower over my own stupidity as far as ruining a perfectly good thread with multiple inputs heading in a positive and certainly intellectually beneficial direction.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?5348-Syndicate-21-01-12-ongoing-%28over-a-quarter-of-all-posts-in-this-thread-are-deleted%29/page7

post 131 - in the middle.

I don't care if its your attempt at fail-bait - The Chimera was on the field and would have entered combat had there been any :tumbleweed:


I also like how you assume I was there...I grant I have something of an attachment to syndicate and keep in touch with friends there, and obviously they aren't in Rote so their opinions may be biased....but most of my intel has come from the syndicate thread itself, with some corroboration/added details from eyewitnesses.

That being said, ultimately while your (Rote as a whole, not you in particular) forum whining has been bothering me lately (which is why I posted initially), ultimately I guess its none of my business so I'll go ahead and butt out now.....

Enjoy your forum-warrioring. :obama:

Wasn't a triage Chimera fwiw.

A lone carrier in space is most likely to be a triage carrier, can you blame anyone if they thought it was?

Yes

[Ripper548]

Ultimately whether it was triage or not is besides the point.....I was mainly pointing out all the pathetic whining over how all those "cowards" wouldn't fight your 15-20 tornado + scimitar + CARRIER (triage or not it has shield reps) gang with only 5-10 people per group and 3 other groups of similar size potentially waiting to jump in the middle and help kill them while they engaged you.....

Cling to semantics,minor details, and random insults if you must to make yourselves feel better, but if that is your idea of a fair fight, you really have absolutely no right to act shocked when people don't take you up on it.....

[Ruri]

Ultimately whether it was triage or not is besides the point.....I was mainly pointing out all the pathetic whining over how all those "cowards" wouldn't fight your 15-20 tornado + scimitar + CARRIER (triage or not it has shield reps) gang with only 5-10 people per group and 3 other groups of similar size potentially waiting to jump in the middle and help kill them while they engaged you.....

Cling to semantics,minor details, and random insults if you must to make yourselves feel better, but if that is your idea of a fair fight, you really have absolutely no right to act shocked when people don't take you up on it.....

In truth we were disappointed when we showed up at our POCO coming out of reinforced and the 40-odd people in local were not there to finish it off. We then gave out props to the HAC gang that warped to our carrier and engaged despite terrible odds, and only lost one ship while deaggressing. We fully expected to be fighting outnumbered, which Tornados are great at if they make it to the fight. Shit happens, we understand this, but we also feel that it's poor form to spend all that effort to reinforce someone's structures if you're a) not going to finish the job and b) not doing it to get a fight.

As another FWIW, the quality of our local smack (and our posting :V) is p. disappointing sometimes, I feel like it doesn't really represent us very well. If I could I would mandate that every person would have to wear a top hat and monocle in real life before they're allowed to type in local, which would encourage them to be more gentlemanly and fabulous; sadly all I can do is watch, and shake my head.

[Ripper548]

Ultimately whether it was triage or not is besides the point.....I was mainly pointing out all the pathetic whining over how all those "cowards" wouldn't fight your 15-20 tornado + scimitar + CARRIER (triage or not it has shield reps) gang with only 5-10 people per group and 3 other groups of similar size potentially waiting to jump in the middle and help kill them while they engaged you.....

Cling to semantics,minor details, and random insults if you must to make yourselves feel better, but if that is your idea of a fair fight, you really have absolutely no right to act shocked when people don't take you up on it.....

In truth we were disappointed when we showed up at our POCO coming out of reinforced and the 40-odd people in local were not there to finish it off. We then gave out props to the HAC gang that warped to our carrier and engaged despite terrible odds, and only lost one ship while deaggressing. We fully expected to be fighting outnumbered, which Tornados are great at if they make it to the fight. Shit happens, we understand this, but we also feel that it's poor form to spend all that effort to reinforce someone's structures if you're a) not going to finish the job and b) not doing it to get a fight.

As another FWIW, the quality of our local smack (and our posting :V) is p. disappointing sometimes, I feel like it doesn't really represent us very well. If I could I would mandate that every person would have to wear a top hat and monocle in real life before they're allowed to type in local, which would encourage them to be more gentlemanly and fabulous; sadly all I can do is watch, and shake my head.

Fair enough - I can understand the dissapointment......but so far as I can tell it doesn't even seem like you guys are sure who it WAS who reinforced the POCO....which is probably why all the random smack etc. has been rather vague/unfocused.....

I agree whoever hit your POCO probably owed you a fight....but the rest of the involved parties just happened to get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, so all the whining/namecalling about them is rather futile and childish.....

v0v

Edit: Also, to be fair to whoever did reinforce the POCO.....I must admit that were I them - even if I had some trap prepared to spring on you, I would have been VERY hesitant to escalate enough to kill your chimera + whatever other caps you subsequently dropped with, apparently, *5* PL spais watching in local.......Thats a good way to welp a cap fleet.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

While ripper appears to have something of a point regarding the actual words in the OP and the related battle scenario, the thread was blissfully unaware of it and really actually quite productive until the last page of shitstorming from both sides.


TL;DR of this thread is:


Try to warp a group of bombers in to the middle of the nado gang and scram/web as many as you can with Loki-or-claymore boosted Afterburning bombers, and pray you focus fire.

[Rampro.]

While ripper appears to have something of a point regarding the actual words in the OP and the related battle scenario, the thread was blissfully unaware of it and really actually quite productive until the last page of shitstorming from both sides.


TL;DR of this thread is:


Try to warp a group of bombers in to the middle of the nado gang and scram/web as many as you can with Loki-or-claymore boosted Afterburning bombers, and pray you focus fire.

You could do that with any ship type really

[Daneel Trevize]

Well bombers are cloaky to not give the game away until at 0km, are frigs for being very hard to hit, and their bonused torps apply decent damage to mwd-ing BCs at ranges good for anything short of BS weapons/HMs.

[Ripper548]

Well, to stay on topic this time:

Range isn't going to be an issue....The closer you can hug the tornado gang the better. If you try to out-snipe a tornado gang in a frig gang or really any gang other than a larger tornado gang or a heavily buffer fit BS sniper gang you are just committing suicide.

The problem with most of these counters I'm seeing is that they all seem to rely on the tornados making a fundamental mistake - like hanging around in 1 spot long enough for a cloaky ship to get a warp-in.....or jumping through a gate without a scout.....or just plain being too stupid to either burn directly away or simply warp off when they see a frig gang flying towards them.

The tornado is a very vulnerable ship...but its also a very versatile ship...and I would say a good tornado fleet is one of the hardest to *reliably* counter in the entire game (which is why, as many people have already said, they are so good for fighting outnumbered). I'm sure its possible to counter them....but I don't know that I've seen any practical solutions for *general use* so far aside from a "bigger tornado gang" or a "bs sniper gang" or just harassment tactics with bombers, etc.

[Daneel Trevize]

I was talking about applying DPS to those tackled Tornados while they're trying to 'starburst'. Getting DPS onto the primary while tackling & hugging a different tier3/generally maintaining good transversal on the rest is going to need longer damage projection than most frigates can muster, or blaster cruisers.

[Rampro.]

ul probably want to kill the rapiers first