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View Full Version : [Mining] Medusa: How to fix mining and cripple botters in several easy steps.



Ophichius
January 15 2012, 02:19:07 PM
|Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit|

As we all know, mining in Eve isn't so much 'playing the game' as 'paying $20 a month for a nice screensaver'. It's easy to bot, it's boring, and it's not even providing all that much of the mineral supply for Eve.

Profit-wise, it's not terrible, but it pales in comparison to the current crop of 150M/h+ activities available to combat pilots. Peak mining yield in 0.0, with a max-skilled Hulk, receiving ganglinked, max-skilled Rorqual boosts, is 109M/h on Arkonor and 90.4M on Merc. Ice mining in a max-skilled Mackinaw yields a paltry 23.1M/h on Dark Glitter. The Skiff isn't even worth considering, as it mines less Merc than the Hulk, even with bonuses.

It's non-interactive: 60 second miner cycles are on the edge of bearable, 3 minute strip miner cycles are completely uninteresting, and 10 minute ice miner cycles mean the damn things may as well be labelled 'AFK Miner I'. This is not entertainment, it's drudgery.

It's easily bottable: Due to the static location of belts, it's trivially easy to build a bot which can warp to a belt, mine until full, and return to station. Sophisticated bots can jetcan mine, haul their own cargo, and effectively automate the above, incredibly boring process, completely AFK mining is a reality.

It's not supplying the lion's share of minerals in Eve. The introduction of the drone regions completely undid the mineral economy of Eve, shutting down a great deal of the demand for T1 minerals that the supercap rush and the constant use of capitals in warfare would normally generate.

The ships themselves make no sense, and are frail, vulnerable, uninteresting things. Compare the fittings on the Procurer, Retriever, and Covetor. Each ship shares the exact same PG output, and only the Covetor has increased CPU, despite each tier fitting one more strip miner than the tier before it. This bizarre progression leads to the counter-intuitive outcome of the Procurer being by far the easiest ship to fit a solid tank to, as the free CPU and PG after strip miners have been installed actually drops as you rise through the tiers.

|Valor Redux|

While the ships themselves are bland, uninteresting, and needlessly frail, mining itself will remain a risk-averse, boring profession. What we should be striving to emulate in our barges is not the staid, plodding grind of the modern industrial quarry, but the crazed fervor of a gold rush. Barges should not be ungainly slabs, but the resilient forward outposts of pioneering risk-takers.

With this in mind, I propose that barges be re-balanced to match appropriate combat ships in tank and agility. The lightweight barges will still mount only a single strip miner but will have the fittings and slots to mount a suitable, cruiser-sized tank. Middleweight will similarly be matched against battlecruiser tanks, and heavyweight barges against battleships. All barges will receive +1 utility high slot over their turret count.

Furthermore, barges should be racialized, allowing specialization within the new and expanded mining environment. With each race's barge's bonused towards their own tank type, and with a fixation on a specific type of mining role.

What this accomplishes: With barges actually able to weather the storm of enemy fire, and possibly even fight back a little, they are no longer defenseless floating targets for any pilot to wander along and pop, but a dedicated and hardened mining platform, with an entire range of fitting options possible.

|The Death Of Stone|

Why give barges a buff into defensively-powerful, more agile ships? Because the new mining needs it.

Enter Medusa.


After years of intensive mining, the static belts in orbit in all major star systems are withered husks of their former glory, more slag and rubble than precious minerals. The unfortunate or poor are all who are left to pick over these unpalatable scraps of former industrial glory.

All static belts in high-sec will have ore types downgraded to low-grade ores, with yields of only 5-10% of current mineral yield per batch.


Industry grinds on however, and the discovery of new mineral deposits is a lucrative and thriving trade, every day pilots discover rogue asteroids in eccentric orbits, once thought too valueless to burn fuel chasing after, now lucrative sources of the raw materials needed to feed New Eden's ravenous industrial appetite.

New anomalies will be seeded across all of high-sec, small clusters of asteroids or even a single massive rogue asteroid containing good-quality ore (current standard yield). These anomalies should be fairly quick to deplete, taking a Hulk only an hour or so to completely mine out. However, they respawn immediately somewhere within the constellation once mined out. Gravitational signatures in high-sec will yield smaller hidden belts and occasionally single rocks of guaranteed high-quality (5-10% bonused ores), representing 5-6 Hulk/hours of mining.


Meanwhile, in bars across the restless frontier worlds tales abound of wild riches, miners whose luck ran true and who made grand fortunes after finding exotic asteroids spinning through the cold depths of untamed space.

New mining anomalies in lowsec and nullsec will be composed of high percentages of high-quality ore (5-10% bonused), and have a smaller chance to instead be small asteroids of rare and exotic ores (100-500% bonus yield, but mined out in a few minutes.)

This allows miners who are willing to brave lowsec and nullsec to 'strike it rich' with a lucky find, occasionally pulling in tens or hundreds of millions of ISK in ore in a few minutes. Similarly to how current exploration mechanics work with faction/deadspace drops. Think of it as 'faction ore drops' if you will.


Such riches are not without hazard however, in the maddened frenzy to feed the industrial behemoths of New Eden, risks are less worrisome than continued profitability. Ores which were once considered too unstable or hazardous to handle are now being extracted in ever-greater quantities.

Rare ores will have mining backlash, ranging from straight up damage effects to various e-war effects. 'A wave of radiation washes over your ship, disabling your warp drive temporarily.' is not good news.


When money is involved, humanity's darker side always surfaces, and this latest rush to wealth is no exception. Those who find these riches guard them jealously and tolerate no interference. The desperate, or determined, will go to any length to secure their fortunes.

Anomalies and belts will be guarded, the richer the site, the more potent the guards. In nullsec, one can expect an exotic mercoxit asteroid to be guarded by an armada of pirate vessels, which the miner must either tank successfully, or clear before mining. In higher security systems, weaker vessels will still warp in to defend their claims. Thus the need for a true tank on mining barges.


A frequent nuisance across much of New Eden, rogue drones have responded to this shortage as well, altering their designs and pathways to make more efficient use of ever-dwindling resources. Even hives in the still-rich drone regions are evolving in the face of potential starvation.

Drone mineral yields should be drastically slashed across the board. If it is necessary to make up the difference somehow, make all rogue drones drop small quantities of drone parts, and add 1-run 'integrated' drone BPCs as rare drops to the loot tables of normal rogue drones.

|The Serpent's Fangs|

Each race's barges will be specialized for this new environment, a rough breakdown of the proposed types as follows:


Ever-willing to seize new opportunities, the Gallente Federation commissioned ORE to design a new line of mining vessels to meet their military needs under the code name: Medusa. ORE engineers did not disappoint, delivering a line of ships featuring advanced damage control systems and state-of-the-art drone tech.

Gallente barges have a 7.5%/level bonus to armor repair amount, as well as featuring 50, 75, and 125 m3/Mbit drone capacity for the cruiser-weight, battlecruiser-weight, and and battleship-weight barges respectively. They are moderately weighted towards low slots.



Unwilling to let the Gallente gain an edge in the resource extraction arena, the Caldari intercepted several prototype ORE mining barges and reverse engineered them, putting a uniquely Caldari spin on the basic design. Optimized for massive retrieval operations in hostile space, they boast combat-grade shielding coupled with massive internal ore bays, capable of weathering intense storms of fire until their supporting fleet can scourge the area clean of opposition

All Caldari mining barges receive a 5%/level bonus to all shield resists, as well as having the largest ore bays by size class. They are heavily weighted towards mid slots.


Thukker insight once again proved itself in the creation of the Minmatar Republic's signature mining barges. Agile and fast, they are updated versions of the flexible mining platforms which accompany Thukker caravans through deep space, providing the necessary resources to keep the great caravans maintained.

Minmatar mining barges receive a 7.5%/level bonus to shield boost amount, and sacrifice one low slot for a spare high slot. They are moderately weighted towards mid slots.


Facing the reality that resource extraction in the mew era would require new mining techniques, the Amarr Empire commissioned the creation of deep space mining barges suited for the coming conflict. Featuring an immense bulk of armor plating, and reactor technology unrivaled by any other empire, the Amarrian barges are instruments of divine toil.

Amarr mining barges receive a 5%/level bonus to all armor resists, as well as having the largest cap capacity and best capacitor regen rate. They are heavily weighted towards low slots.

T2 barges will generally be based off of their T1 hulls, but with T2 base resists and exhumer bonuses added on. In general they will receive more drone bay, larger ore bays, and more agility over their T1 counterparts.

Tier 1 Exhumers (Skiff-type) become combat barges, capable of mounting greater offensive firepower, putting them slightly behind T1 combat cruisers for damage output. This makes up for their worse performance at mining (including mercoxit mining) compared to the tier 3 exhumers.

|The Serpent's Tail|

The intended goal of this proposed change is to break up the monotony of mining, reduce the ease with which mining can be botted and/or cripple the profitability of botting, reduce the influx of minerals from the drone regions, and increase the viability of lowsec and nullsec mining by increasing the survival capability of dedicated mining vessels, while also increasing the payoff for mining in low and null.

I highly doubt my suggestion is perfect, but I hope most of you consider it to be a step on the right path.

-O

Dante
January 15 2012, 03:15:06 PM
The racial barges idea seem a bit superfluous and would makes these changes less likely due to art requirements imo. The changes you describe could just as easily be applied to current barges. Otherwise I like it.

Drones just need to give bounties like other NPCs tbh.

Ophichius
January 15 2012, 03:21:42 PM
Admittedly the racial barges aren't necessary for it to work, I threw them in for flavor and the possibilities they open up, as they add more complexity to both mining and attacking miners. Mining is currently a single-track path with no differentiation, which is part of what makes it so boring in my opinion. Combat pilots have what, sixty or seventy viable ships to choose from? Miners basically get one.

Besides which I really would love to kick the tar out of someone in a Thukker-designed combat barge. Just for grins.

-O

Tyrus Tenebros
January 15 2012, 05:22:54 PM
I'm not convinced this will make botting harder.

I think it'd only be a few extra lines of code to make the bot do a ship-scanner probe and warp to :random mining anomaly: (hell given the usual naming conventions you could even make it reliably warp to the best anomaly)

Knight7
January 15 2012, 05:49:29 PM
So, these racial barges... would they use the Barge Skill or the Racial Industrial skill? Or maybe both?

Edit: I like this idea on the whole. It might still be easy to bot, as someone said, but by making it more entertaining you'll give people more reason to do it themselves.

Mike deVoid
January 15 2012, 06:19:47 PM
Yeah, I like this idea in general

Ophichius
January 15 2012, 08:12:38 PM
I'm not convinced this will make botting harder.

I think it'd only be a few extra lines of code to make the bot do a ship-scanner probe and warp to :random mining anomaly: (hell given the usual naming conventions you could even make it reliably warp to the best anomaly)

It screws with botting drones for massive minerals pretty well, and it prevents automated fleets from being as effective, since there isn't enough yield in anoms to make a massive strip-mining fleet profitable, they're optimized for solo miners. Also, the whole plan is to massively drop the total amount of available minerals from highsec anyways. People have been strip mining it for long enough that it should be basically stripped out. If someone wants to send their botting fleet to lowsec...well, the pirates will enjoy shooting it.

One possible tweak is to cut the anoms out completely and simply fold the sites into grav site spawns, since grav sites would be much harder to automate scanning down. I'm not sure I like the full repercussions of that move however. (Highsec mining becomes an exploration-only profession essentially, which makes it harder on newbies, who are often quite confused by the probing system.)


So, these racial barges... would they use the Barge Skill or the Racial Industrial skill? Or maybe both?

Edit: I like this idea on the whole. It might still be easy to bot, as someone said, but by making it more entertaining you'll give people more reason to do it themselves.

To be honest I was thinking of a refund of all exhumer and barge SP, old barge skill goes away and racial barge skills are introduced, make Rorqual and Orca pre-req chain shift to require Exhumers I or II instead of Barge V, and make Exhumers pre-reqs shift to be two mining support skills to V to put it in-line with other T2 ship skills.

T2 BPOs are a bit of a sticking point, and I don't know how to get around that easily. One possible way to work it would be for CCP to remove the BPOs and grant the owners the option to redeem one BPO of one of the new types with the same ME/PE as their old BPO.

-O

Knight7
January 15 2012, 10:12:42 PM
Hmmm... How about this, as far as the ships go:

Merge Mining Barge into ORE Industrial skill - take higher rating of the two and refund sp for the lower rating. I'd say keep the existing ORE barges/exhumers in the game, subject to your cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship tank idea, plus maybe make the Procurer not totally useless anymore. Give the ORE barges 2 bonuses, both focused on mining and they carry only drones for fighting.

Then have the racial barges keying off the Racial Industrial skill, and make them less specialized on mining, with the ability to shoot back - give 2 bonuses, 1 for mining (cycle time, yield, cargo space, w/e), 1 for tanking. IE, Tier 1 racial barge can mount a single strip, a cruiser tank, and 3 frig guns; Tier 2 racial barge mounts 2 strips, BC tank, 5 frig guns; Tier 3, 3 strips, BB* tank, 4 cruiser guns. And they all get a utility high, even the ORE ones.

T2 versions use Exhumers skill. ORE get bonuses p. much same as current ones. Racial ones get another mining bonus and a fighty bonus.


*Battleships are not bullshit.

Doomed Predator
January 15 2012, 10:36:38 PM
Racial barges are a waste of time. There should be an gas/ice/rock barge and exhumer and it should do it's job well. All the racial barges you proposed could be rolled into a T3 barge if need be.


You did mention a lot of the faults though, manly drone regions, sheer boredom and thus bots. Rogue drones should be just changed to give bounties and boredom fought by shortening cycle times drastically and introducing the things you mentioned(like local effect,guards, "jackpot" roids).

Not sure how to fight bots though. I'm certain at least one more step would have to be added to make botting harder. Perhaps they could add scanning the roid and then selecting the mineral "hotspot" where your miners would cycle. The scan should take only a couple of seconds and selecting the spot where you would like your lasers to start extracting should be simple.

Cue1*
January 15 2012, 10:49:37 PM
I like the idea of racial barges but it seems like just one too many steps for the change to really happen. What about just keeping the barges as they are, just changing the size and roles of each to fit your model.

Ophichius
January 16 2012, 05:01:19 AM
Hmmm... How about this, as far as the ships go:

Merge Mining Barge into ORE Industrial skill - take higher rating of the two and refund sp for the lower rating. I'd say keep the existing ORE barges/exhumers in the game, subject to your cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship tank idea, plus maybe make the Procurer not totally useless anymore. Give the ORE barges 2 bonuses, both focused on mining and they carry only drones for fighting.

Then have the racial barges keying off the Racial Industrial skill, and make them less specialized on mining, with the ability to shoot back - give 2 bonuses, 1 for mining (cycle time, yield, cargo space, w/e), 1 for tanking. IE, Tier 1 racial barge can mount a single strip, a cruiser tank, and 3 frig guns; Tier 2 racial barge mounts 2 strips, BC tank, 5 frig guns; Tier 3, 3 strips, BB* tank, 4 cruiser guns. And they all get a utility high, even the ORE ones.

T2 versions use Exhumers skill. ORE get bonuses p. much same as current ones. Racial ones get another mining bonus and a fighty bonus.


*Battleships are not bullshit.

To be honest, I'd prefer to leave all barges as drone-based damage sources, with Gallente having the edge in capacity and bandwidth. You have to start adding more and more role bonuses to the hull in order to limit the number of strip miners while still having extra weapon hardpoints available, easier to simply limit the total number of turret hardpoints to the desired strip miner count.

If you really want to fit a battle barge, or a bait barge, you have to strip out at least some of the miners for guns.

I did think of a good way to retain the ORE barges in a meaningful way however. Convert them to dedicated gas-harvesting vessels, with high-capacity gas bays and the equivalent of strip miners for gas harvesting.


Racial barges are a waste of time. There should be an gas/ice/rock barge and exhumer and it should do it's job well. All the racial barges you proposed could be rolled into a T3 barge if need be.

Can you elaborate on why racial barges would be a waste of time? I really don't see how offering players more choice in fitting ships, and thus diversifying target types is a waste of time. The only significant concern raised so far about them is that they would require new art asset creation, thus substantially lowering the chance of implementation.


Not sure how to fight bots though. I'm certain at least one more step would have to be added to make botting harder. Perhaps they could add scanning the roid and then selecting the mineral "hotspot" where your miners would cycle. The scan should take only a couple of seconds and selecting the spot where you would like your lasers to start extracting should be simple.

I think it would be prudent to not go overboard on anti-bot measures at first, perhaps holding ideas like hotspot scanning in reserve in case botting continues to be an issue would be best. I do share your concerns that the changes as proposed would not have enough impact on botting, but the anom/site/belt/oretype changes I suggested have the advantage of all using mechanics and systems built into the game already, rather than having to build a new UI interface and game mechanic. As has been pointed out upstream, complexity is the enemy of implementation.


I like the idea of racial barges but it seems like just one too many steps for the change to really happen. What about just keeping the barges as they are, just changing the size and roles of each to fit your model.

That's a possibility as well, if the more complicated ship changes would prove to be too complex. I'm not die-hard dedicated to the idea of racial barges, but I'm willing to argue for it a bit on the grounds that it diversifies the target environment for those of us who would hunt miners, as well as opening up more options for creative fittings and optimizations for different roles.

On the whole, I would rather see the major salient points of Medusa (jackpot rocks, massive devaluation of mineral yield/hour for static highsec belts and drones, greater focus on actively mining, barges that don't suck) pushed through even if it means sacrificing the racialized barge idea.

-O

Sponk
January 16 2012, 05:34:07 AM
I just want capital mining lasers so I have to think "will I lose this capital ship if I siege it for 5 minutes just to shoot rocks faster?"

Knight7
January 16 2012, 06:15:35 AM
To be honest, I'd prefer to leave all barges as drone-based damage sources, with Gallente having the edge in capacity and bandwidth. You have to start adding more and more role bonuses to the hull in order to limit the number of strip miners while still having extra weapon hardpoints available, easier to simply limit the total number of turret hardpoints to the desired strip miner count.

If you really want to fit a battle barge, or a bait barge, you have to strip out at least some of the miners for guns.

I did think of a good way to retain the ORE barges in a meaningful way however. Convert them to dedicated gas-harvesting vessels, with high-capacity gas bays and the equivalent of strip miners for gas harvesting.

Good point on the turret thing. There's an easy fix, though - make them all missile-armed instead (half-serious). I'm not married to the numbers of weapons I listed, either, but you did say you envisioned the new barges as being not-defenseless and able to fight back "a little"; I'm just running with that idea and plugging for a little built-in, non-drone firepower.

Turning the ORE barges into gas miners I'm ambivalent on. While I like the idea of having a dedicated gas mining vessel, I'm not sure that radically redefining existing ships to fill that role is the proper course.

Cue1*
January 16 2012, 07:02:48 AM
I like the idea of racial barges but it seems like just one too many steps for the change to really happen. What about just keeping the barges as they are, just changing the size and roles of each to fit your model.

That's a possibility as well, if the more complicated ship changes would prove to be too complex. I'm not die-hard dedicated to the idea of racial barges, but I'm willing to argue for it a bit on the grounds that it diversifies the target environment for those of us who would hunt miners, as well as opening up more options for creative fittings and optimizations for different roles.

On the whole, I would rather see the major salient points of Medusa (jackpot rocks, massive devaluation of mineral yield/hour for static highsec belts and drones, greater focus on actively mining, barges that don't suck) pushed through even if it means sacrificing the racialized barge idea.

-O

The racial barges to me, seems like it's a bigger pain than it's worth. Chances are they wouldn't be well balanced and one would just be OP in comparison to the others. Plus keeping the art department out of it is a plus to pushing the change through.

Doomed Predator
January 17 2012, 11:22:19 AM
Racial barges are a waste of time. There should be an gas/ice/rock barge and exhumer and it should do it's job well. All the racial barges you proposed could be rolled into a T3 barge if need be.

Can you elaborate on why racial barges would be a waste of time? I really don't see how offering players more choice in fitting ships, and thus diversifying target types is a waste of time. The only significant concern raised so far about them is that they would require new art asset creation, thus substantially lowering the chance of implementation.
Like Cue said,balance reasons. I'm certain there would be 1 or maybe 2 which would be considered the best. Besides, what kind of situation would there have to be for a miner to go " I wish I had picked the armor tanking barge with the cap bonus instead of the rep bonus.

Ophichius
January 17 2012, 11:52:28 AM
Well the Amarr barge actually gets an armor resist bonus, and just happens to have really good cap, like most Amarr ships. Also like most Amarr ships, not a lot of mids but tons of lows. So it's really the same sort of situation that exists between e.g. the Abaddon and the Hyperion. They tank differently, and are best suited for different roles (Abaddon shines in logistics-backed fleets where massive tank is needed, hyperion shines in small gang/solo.)

Gallente barge gets more deployed drones than the Amarr barge. So for out-and-out brick tanking with RR support (some of the 0.0 sites with extremely heavy damage output) you'd want to run Amarr barges. For solo/small group mining in lower-DPS environments where you want everyone in a barge for higher m3/hour mining rates, the local reps and added drone capacity of the Gallente barge would be the superior choice.

Similarly, for ninja mining, or hunting for jackpot rocks, the Minmatar barges with two utility highs, good agility, and good speed would be the preferred choice, since you can put a probe launcher and improved cloak on them for busting gatecamps. With the worst ore bay and cargo capacity, they wouldn't be the greatest choice for raw industrial strip mining however.

Caldari barges would shine for industrial-scale strip-mining of 0.0 and w-space belts, with the largest ore bays and the ability to fit mining laser upgrades without sacrificing tank slots.

Each ship fills a role in the mining ecosystem. But part of the reason to have all four is that miners training to tank their respective racial barges also wind up training to tank combat vessels. So a Gallente pilot may very well choose a Gallente barge because it allows him to use his SP in drones and armor tanking more effectively.

-O

Doomed Predator
January 17 2012, 12:30:19 PM
That sounds reasonable, but with 3 barges per race and 3 exhumers I'd say a lot of them would end up on the shit pile with only 2 or 3 worth a damn. Would be great if the barges showed of the strengths and weaknesses of each race to new players.

Warmenhoven
January 17 2012, 02:04:09 PM
I must say this sounds like a great idea but I would push for the belt/anom/ore changes first and separately to avoid getting hung up on balance and art asset issues.

Thinking of it from a new players p.o.v. it would be pretty exciting to be sitting in a belt a week after you started, merrily mining away in your little frig/cruiser and then to be told that you could make tonnes more money by scanning down anoms with the ship scanner by a friendly passer by (those exist rigth?), suddenly there's a whole new mechanic for you to use and to find these site you'll be dragged all around empire space looking for good sites instead of sitting in your comfortable home of 3 or 4 systems. Just screams good entrapment mechanism, and we all know how much it is in human nature to gamble and how good it feels when you hit that jackpot ---> instant addiction....as long as the payouts are actually good with a reasonable frequency.

[edit] also hugely enjoyed reading the OP =]

Ophichius
January 17 2012, 02:11:53 PM
I must say this sounds like a great idea but I would push for the belt/anom/ore changes first and separately to avoid getting hung up on balance and art asset issues.

Thinking of it from a new players p.o.v. it would be pretty exciting to be sitting in a belt a week after you started, merrily mining away in your little frig/cruiser and then to be told that you could make tonnes more money by scanning down anoms with the ship scanner by a friendly passer by (those exist rigth?), suddenly there's a whole new mechanic for you to use and to find these site you'll be dragged all around empire space looking for good sites instead of sitting in your comfortable home of 3 or 4 systems. Just screams good entrapment mechanism, and we all know how much it is in human nature to gamble and how good it feels when you hit that jackpot ---> instant addiction....as long as the payouts are actually good with a reasonable frequency.

[edit] also hugely enjoyed reading the OP =]

Yeah, the racialized barges seem to be the only real hangup folks have, certainly considering cutting them when I go post this on E-O. (Need to fortify myself before I brave those waters, and I'm all out of Guinness.) As for helpful vets, I actually have a habit of starting new alts just to jump into the rookie chat and help new folks out/point them at E-UNI/suggest they learn to PvP early/corrupt them to piracy, so we certainly do exist.

Thanks for the feedback on the writing. I was a little sleep deprived and the style just started flowing, so I rolled with it. All the RP stuff just sorta, clicked in my head as an Aura voiceover.

-O

Warmenhoven
January 17 2012, 02:57:14 PM
(Guinness.)

I support you and all you stand for.

Content: If you go on E-O and try to spin it for the devs I don't think you'd go far wrong by pointing out how useful this would be for new player retention.