Interdictors

[Alenar Rumanev]

These guys got left behind when dessys got a boost. Just give them the same base HP and signature as dessys (which are now > dictors) or something more (like increased T2 resistances)?

[Sponk]

why?

[prometheus]

Interdictors don't have a 25% rof penalty, and they already have an extremely important role.
Other than giving the Eris some more grid or cpu, they're pretty good now.

[RoemySchneider]

Interdictors don't have a 25% rof penalty, and they already have an extremely important role.
Other than giving the Eris some more grid or cpu, they're pretty good now.



* The rate of fire penalty has been removed from all destroyers.
* For all destroyers the shield and armor have been increased by 10%, capacitor capacity has been increased by 25% and signature radius decreased by 25%.
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219

first change made them like dictors (bar some slot/weapon layouts)
second change made them better than dictors (if dictors were fit to do actual battle and not some double-bubble/cloak specialization)

[Alain Colcer]

personally i think the problem lies in the disparity between each interdictor.

The sabre is an excellent combat ship, while the eris only works for deploying bubbles.... There needs to be some balancing review, specially since interdictors are born from the interceptor skill.

I'm not an interdictor or HIC pilot myself, but i consider regular dictors as speedy dessies with low combat potential. They should have low sig radius, high speed, decent resists, with combat abilities to handle a single AF at most.

[n0th]

I like how you talk about dictor balance and completely ignore the HUGE role nerf crucible brought to them.
I really should stop reading here...

[Rudolf Miller]

I like how you talk about dictor balance and completely ignore the HUGE role nerf crucible brought to them.
I really should stop reading here...

Role nerf? Do continue

[Alenar Rumanev]

I like how you talk about dictor balance and completely ignore the HUGE role nerf crucible brought to them.
I really should stop reading here...

Role nerf? Do continue

I think he is referring to no more double bubbling with one dictor (as dropping one bubble gives 60s aggression timer) unless he is just being a derp (highly possible). Frankly I have no problem with that change, if dictors were actually worth flying enough so having a second dictor made sense.

[n0th]

Except you now have no chance to bubble stuff on gate and not to die (as bubble up = aggression), which makes flying dictors even more painful.
And it isnt like everyone in gangs want to fly one (let alone do so competently) anyway.

Also with the AF buff coming (cba doing a writeup of current SiSi state, lets just say - every AF gets an extra slot, extra bonus, more stats, more cpu/pg) the frigsize balance will be shaken heavily anyway. IMO not worth discussing dictor ~solopvp~ balance really. I mean come on, its a gang shiptype with the Sabre being a bit over the top compared to others. You dont whine that you cant pawn a Vaga in a Lachesis etc., so why would you expect Dictors to be good solo ships?

[prometheus]

They are fast and effective bubble spitting anti-support ships.
HICtors have their own abilities and pitfalls, as do regular Interdictors.
Like I said, dictors have a role than can't be replaced. Could the class be balanced between themselves, probably, but they don't need a boost like Destroyers got

Hell, maybe people should start fitting artillery on the the Sabre as the certifications suggest! (lol)

[Takon Orlani]

Give them the reduction in CPU usage for cloaks without the ability to warp cloaked.

[RoemySchneider]

let them fit XL guns!

[Marlona Sky]

let them fit XL guns!

I think at that point it would be:

"Let XL guns fit Interdictors!"

[Zeekar]

Give them the reduction in CPU usage for cloaks without the ability to warp cloaked.

LOL no.

[whispous]

Give them the reduction in CPU usage for cloaks without the ability to warp cloaked.


:D:lol:

[Mfume]

I like how you talk about dictor balance and completely ignore the HUGE role nerf crucible brought to them.
I really should stop reading here...

[Pattern]

Turn them all into the sabre, problem solved. Well, not really.

Interdictors are exceptionally shitty ships to fly from a game design perspective. Pop bubble, explode, spend the rest of the fight listening to the FC if you weren't flying it with an alt. and anyone who approaches game design with the expectation that we should all have alts is a total faggot. And should be shot.

[Ophichius]

Why not make dictors immune to bubbles? It's a role buff without any sort of combat stat increase, and makes them somewhat less suicidal when doing their job properly.

-O

[prometheus]

Why not make dictors immune to bubbles? It's a role buff without any sort of combat stat increase, and makes them somewhat less suicidal when doing their job properly.
That's an extremely large boost, I can't see that being a positive change. EVE players already have problems committing to engagements.

[Takon Orlani]

Why not make dictors immune to bubbles? It's a role buff without any sort of combat stat increase, and makes them somewhat less suicidal when doing their job properly.

-O

My idea was less op.

[prometheus]

In addition to balancing them within their class, you could just as easily give them the same stat boost (not dps) that the Destroyers got and that would be sufficient.
Giving immunity to anything, or giving more ships bonuses (even if it's a fitting bonus) to cloaks is a crappy idea.

[Mfume]

I'd be happy with them reverting the bubble aggression change; right now you can still bubble and jump a gate but it's not consistent enough to be useful.

[Stoffl]

right now you can still bubble and jump a gate but it's not consistent enough to be useful.

wat ? Is it like bugged or something ?

Also, terrible change was terrible.

[Mfume]

wat ? Is it like bugged or something ?

Also, terrible change was terrible.

Basically, yeah, there are certain conditions under which you can force a dictor through, possibly normal ship's with aggression as well but haven't tested it that thoroughly yet. If I figure out how to replicate it consistently, you can bet I'll petition some clueless GM to make it look like we have official approval, then get incredibly butthurt when I'm banned for it.

[Shiroi Okami]

Giving immunity to anything, or giving more ships bonuses (even if it's a fitting bonus) to cloaks is a crappy idea.

[joe space]

dictors are fine (other than needing to be balanced within the class). the change to them was fine. sorry that you do not have a ship that dramatically increases your tactical options and is also easymode. babies.

[Stoffl]

ITT: dictors are easymode


:psyduck:

[cillisia]

Allow them to warp out of their own bubble

Sent via my smartphone so please try to ignore any retarded autocorrected errors

[Takon Orlani]

HP buff.

[pr0lurker]

Only problem I have with dictors is having to replace implants in my 30m+ clone each time I end up sat in my own bubble (I fly alot of shit), otherwise I'm not bothered adapt/die/etc

[Ophichius]

Allow them to warp out of their own bubble

Yeah this was basically my intent with 'make them immune to bubbles', but without having a potentially-buggy bit of new code to check who owns the bubble.

-O

[RoemySchneider]

i want to fit 7 bubble launchers and a cloak

[prometheus]

It probably would make sense to make them T2 Destroyers with a big fitting bonus to Bubble Launchers (a la recons), and a restriction to 1 launcher per ship.
Why one per ship? Because then all of a sudden they're all pretty equal.

I know it doesn't really make sense to have a role specific module that also gets a fitting bonus, but it's that or give them all way more cpu (except sabre) so that fitting them inst an issue.

[pr0lurker]

Why one per ship? Because then all of a sudden they're all pretty equal

Don't agree on that, no sane Dictor pilot wants equal stats dictors. Eris/Heretic are nice and cheap to replace for gangs/fleets and make spacejew CEO's happy, and if you pay for your own shit you get two of the others for the price of one Sabre if you shop around

[filingo]

"but its cheap" is not a valid arugment for a ship to remain shitty imo

[pr0lurker]

"but its cheap" is not a valid arugment for a ship to remain shitty imo

Indeed not but while I stay sane I will want them as they are

[filingo]

"but its cheap" is not a valid arugment for a ship to remain shitty imo

Indeed not but while I stay sane I will want them as they are

re : your post

idgi

[joe space]

"but its cheap" is not a valid arugment for a ship to remain shitty imo

Indeed not but while I stay sane I will want them as they are

re : your post

idgi

no because he means it's the same without change is good

[whispous]

Allow them to warp out of their own bubble

Sent via my smartphone so please try to ignore any retarded autocorrected errors

I'm going to assume your entire post was an autocorrect that went horribly wrong

[Cue1*]

Allow them to warp out of their own bubble

Sent via my smartphone so please try to ignore any retarded autocorrected errors

Seriously? Have we gone full circle already? We had this at one point, and everyone wanted it changed. You used to be able to warp in a dictor then drop the bubble and still get away.

Dictors are perfect as they are, with maybe some inner class balance needed(like giving the Eris 2 more gun hardpoints) it's HICs that need a buff. HICs actually got a bit of a bonus with the Dictor nerf as they can now cover the escape of a fleet, bubbling one side of a gate then getting out as everyone lands. However, I think with logi being so prevalent in the game today, HICs need to be able to receive reps, at a penalty of some kind.

[Pattern]

it's HICs that need a buff. HICs actually got a bit of a bonus with the Dictor nerf as they can now cover the escape of a fleet, bubbling one side of a gate then getting out as everyone lands. However, I think with logi being so prevalent in the game today, HICs need to be able to receive reps, at a penalty of some kind.

:psyduck:

Beyond the Phobos getting more grid, more or less perfect and more or less make interdictors pointless.

[Cue1*]

it's HICs that need a buff. HICs actually got a bit of a bonus with the Dictor nerf as they can now cover the escape of a fleet, bubbling one side of a gate then getting out as everyone lands. However, I think with logi being so prevalent in the game today, HICs need to be able to receive reps, at a penalty of some kind.

:psyduck:

Beyond the Phobos getting more grid, more or less perfect and more or less make interdictors pointless.

Not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're saying letting HICs get reps would make dictors pointless, which isn't true. HICs are still stupid slow, and at a penalty, I mean like only 25% of reps reach it or something.

[RoemySchneider]

just taking away their resistance bonuses would do the trick.

once it is understood how ridiculously effective those are, maybe some balance can be restored to similarly bonus'ed ship classes

[Mr Marram]

Between the 4, the dictors are quite imbalanced, the sabre with 7 gunslots. The Heretic and Eris are both split weapon platforms, they could both do with another low and midslot respectively and more focused weapons bonuses.

I would pay sabre prices for a fully bonused 7 gun Heretic or Eris.
The fly catcher is harder, it probably needs a bigger damage bonus (and rockets in general), slot layout is ok, maybe another lowslot to keep inline with the extra slots on the heretic and eris.

[Takon Orlani]

Flycatcher needs wary more CPU.

[prometheus]

Eris needs wary more CPU.

[Takon Orlani]

Eris needs wary more CPU.

Flycatcher too. I want a dual prop cloak double bubble Dictors.

[RoemySchneider]

what?! no T2 prober launcher?

[Mr Marram]

Buffs not nerfs should be a platform for a CSM member, no one wants a crappier ship but everyone wants theirs to be better, might make balancing a bitch but life is more fun then !!!

Eris and flycatcher for more CPU, heretic and eris for 7 gun highslots and weapon bonuses to suit, flycatcher for bigger missile bonuses.
Spending 30-50mil on these ships, they should be more deadly than destroyers (especially after the latest buff) and not equal to them but with an extra slot here or there and a bubble pooper.

[prometheus]

They don't need better damage output than Destroyers.
Interdictors have their role, Destroyers have theirs.

ALL the Interdictors are capable of relatively decent dps of 250 and up, and all of them maintain guaranteed hits against support.
The only issue with the class is that only the Sabre can do said dps while still being able to fit a tank and a bubble.
Oddly enough, the second best interdictor is the Flycatcher, which can do the same thing.
Next comes the Eris, followed by the Heretic.

The main reason for the imbalance between the Sabre and the rest is that (according to CCP certificates) it's supposed to be an artillery ship, so it retains its original bonuses.
None of the other interdictors have their original bonuses, and all have been traded out except for the Eris' tracking bonus.

Hell, if you are looking at the numbers you can see that all the other Interdictors are balanced just fine, and the Sabre is the only one out of line.

[joe space]

agreeing with prom.

dictors have their role already. doesn't it seem a little bit silly to ask for a ship with such a unique role to also be the best anti-frig platform? that's like asking for hics to get massive damage buffs so they can stomp other cruisers. i know it has kind of been this way with dictors, but it shouldn't be and the destroyer buff goes a long way in correcting this.

i'm fine with dictors as they are. if anything, maybe bonuses to survivability in terms of tank (slight increases to all except sabre, then sabre can keep it's current versatility and others get a buff that doesn't result in the class overshadowing destroyers' and AFs' unique roles.) making them more survivable by changing mechanics just removes more actual player skill from the game, when we need more and not fewer mechanics that reward player skill.

[Mr Marram]

Why would hics get better anti-cruiser? That is completely against the philosophy of the design to start.
The dictors just seem unbalanced when compared against each other, the sabre sitting way out in front, good damage, tank and tackle, flycatcher a middling 2nd and the Eris and heretic way out in 3rd and 4th.

HICs are heavy tanked, heavy tackle used for holding multiple ships down or one or more supers, depending on how many field generators are fitted.
Comparing the HICs, they all sit quite close to each other, none of them having a particular strength that puts it ahead of the others.

[joe space]

Why would hics get better anti-cruiser? That is completely against the philosophy of the design to start.
The dictors just seem unbalanced when compared against each other, the sabre sitting way out in front, good damage, tank and tackle, flycatcher a middling 2nd and the Eris and heretic way out in 3rd and 4th.

HICs are heavy tanked, heavy tackle used for holding multiple ships down or one or more supers, depending on how many field generators are fitted.
Comparing the HICs, they all sit quite close to each other, none of them having a particular strength that puts it ahead of the others.

i was making the same point regarding hics. they SHOULD NOT be made to stomp other cruisers. i was making that point to support my other point - dictors should not stomp all small ships. frig stomping is for destroyers and AFs.

[Mr Marram]

Much like how recons are not great solopwn machines, dictors should be at least equal to destroyers, sadly the sabre stands out far ahead of the other 3.
My point is that the others should be brought upto the same standard, considering you are spending similar to BC level prices for the ships this isn't an unfair ask.

"buffs not nerfs!!"

I understand it is a difficult line to tread, the dictors do hold a special niche which apart from the bubble is quite a different ship to fly next to the HICs.
As a bump up from the hull, much like how T1 cruisers are versitile and the T2 variants are more specialised, destroyers and dictors should still be able to piss on frigates, outside of specialised frigate fits.
Otherwise what use is there for dictors besides suicide tackle if they are reduced to the point of having no tank, dps or fitting options. HICs have the tank to stay on field for quite some time, they do some damage but that isn't their specialty. Again that's T1 to T2, versatility to specialisation (with T1 hull bonuses), see BB to rook/falcon, exequror to oneiros.

The dictors should retain their natural hull direction.
I do see your point about the example of HICs being buffed to be like dictors and wipe other cruisers but what are the current T1 cruisers like? They are not awesome killing machines, to make them like that you have to sacrifice tank and/or tackle.


-side note-
This is getting a bit of a mess, I get home tonight and so can put this together better, it's quite hard to get a good overview of everything on an iPad :?

[joe space]

other than the recon analogy i follow what you wrote.

i don't think t1 frigs should shit on dictors at all. my argument was that destroyers and AFs should be the top of the food chain when it comes to small weapon platforms. as i see it, AFs should be slightly less good at brawling other small weapon ships then destroyers but should have greater survivability against larger ships. destroyers should generally stomp all other small weapon platforms if they succeed in starting the fight on their terms/catch the other guy slipping/or otherwise get the fight in strong tackle range.

dictors, imo, should be about equal or better than destroyers in an ewarless full dps brawl against destroyers. this should, however, be due to tank and not dps. that way they don't encroach on the destroyer's/AF's role as the best frig stomper because in gangs the key to frig blapping is getting it done quick, not out tanking the frig. this is also why i think tank is a better way than sig of increasing dictor survivability. also, there is no real threat of increasing dictor tank so much that it encroaches on hictor territory.

i'd be fine with some sig bonus on dictors, but i think dessies and AFs should have smaller sigs for getting around the field. dictors, like ewar frigs, don't have to risk being in strong tackle range to fill their roles, so they need to be easier to kill outside of strong tackle range than ships that do (ofc, this same logic doesn't apply to inties which i think are very well balanced as is.)

i'm also fine, however, with leaving sabres as is. i think your point about "buffs not nerfs!" is a good one. so let the sabre remain in competition with AFs and dessies as the best frig stomper, but then don't try to buff other dictors to fill the same role. increase the survivability of the other dictors so they fill the true role of the dictor better than sabres.

[joe space]

fail eidt

[Mr Marram]

increase the survivability of the other dictors so they fill the true role of the dictor better than sabres.

I would be happy with this, it gives players some options in dictor choice rather than 'sabre or suicide bubbler'.

Although with more tank you are looking at dictors taking crusiers down, which is what shouldnt really be happening at all.

[RoemySchneider]

increase the survivability of the other dictors so they fill the true role of the dictor better than sabres.

I would be happy with this, it gives players some options in dictor choice rather than 'sabre or suicide bubbler'.

Although with more tank you are looking at dictors taking crusiers down, which is what shouldnt really be happening at all.

how much eHP are we talking about.....? 20+k..?

[joe space]

20k sounds high. i'm not that familiar with dictors, but isn't dual mse sabre around 10k? if so, then maybe the others should have reasonable fits that tank in the teens?

the biggest problem with trying to make the other dictors compensate by being more able to survive then a sabre is that the sabre is already really good at surviving as well (best speed, best sig, and great fitting). and i don't know dictors well enough to offer any specfics with regard to numbers.

[prometheus]

their ehp is fine.
if anything were to happen they should get the same signature/tank changes that destroyers got.

as they stand right now if you fit them for combat, dual mse aside, they are all around 7-9k

[joe space]

their ehp is fine.
if anything were to happen they should get the same signature/tank changes that destroyers got.

as they stand right now if you fit them for combat, dual mse aside, they are all around 7-9k


dictors, imo, should be about equal or better than destroyers in an ewarless full dps brawl against destroyers. this should, however, be due to tank and not dps. that way they don't encroach on the destroyer's/AF's role as the best frig stomper because in gangs the key to frig blapping is getting it done quick, not out tanking the frig. this is also why i think tank is a better way than sig of increasing dictor survivability.

and it doesn't really make sense to say "ehp fine" and then say they need a sig buff. the biggest problem with the sig bonus thing is that it only really makes sense as a role bonus, but then you have to give it to the sabre too. but, if you give it to the sabre, then the sabre is looking really op and you did nothing to balance the class. if you do do something to balance the class, you'd kind of need to nerf the sabre at the point. but why? the sabre is fine as it is! you're just nerfing the sabre so you can buff the class. that's just dumb when you could do the same thing by just giving the other dictors some mix of tank, sig, and fitting buffs.

but i still agree it's a lot better than making the non-sabre's gankier.

[prometheus]

sorry, i meant to say the ehp differences between the dictors is fine.
and by sig, i don't mean a bonus.

in the crucible patch, all the destroyers got better cap, shield/armor/structure, more speed/agility, and a smaller base signature.

[joe space]

sorry, i meant to say the ehp differences between the dictors is fine.
and by sig, i don't mean a bonus.

in the crucible patch, all the destroyers got better cap, shield/armor/structure, more speed/agility, and a smaller base signature.

yeah, i forgot it wasn't a role bonus. /o

i think i agree with you then. those are the areas that need tweeking.

[Pattern]

This is what I would suggest:

1mn MWD speed increases via changed to base speed and/or mass.

Eris: +9.6% (2216 => 2430ms)
Heretic: +13.7% (2246 => 2554ms)
Flycatcher: +12.6% (2175 => 2450ms)
Sabre: +2.4% (2550 => 2613ms)

This does a few things:
As the base speed of the Interdictors have been normalised, sabre isn't an automatic - lolsomuchfasterthanthantherest option any more, fit for speed, the Eris and Heretic can now be significantly faster (although have less mid slots for tanking and general wtfpwn) or if fit for armour tanking, aren't completely retardation slow.

Oh, and the slowest interdictor is now only 54ms slower than a vagabond , instead of 309ms. (wtf)

Beyond that, liberally apply grid and cpu were needed (and perhaps another missile launcher hardpoint to the eris) and shit should be more balanced between the classes anyway. My experience (popping frigs, not flying them) has taught me that speed is far more important than signature radius, especially given the typical flying behaviour of ships such as dictors, EAF's and SB's, which are frequently alpha'ed on slight by pulse *whatever*.