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Cue1*
December 6 2011, 11:23:08 PM
Ok, so for starters, I have actually dual boxed before, in fact, I tend to do it regularly when moving stuff about. I've dual boxed two dreads, one dread one carrier, and two carriers in combat. Capitals make it easy to dual box since they're stupid slow anyway and in a cap fight 2 seconds doesn't mean the end of the world. Having a second monitor makes it pretty easy as well. I've also dual boxed with one in a covops, salvager, or something else of the sort where the second account isn't as important.

What I'm more interested in is dual boxing in a small gang, specifically logi. Is it skill feasible to become the logi for a gang, or am I going to be too slow on reps trying to save stuff? I'm pretty good at flying logi as it is, was flying it exclusively in '09 and '10. Would I maybe be better off flying one logi and one combat? I'd considered this but the advantage of doing two logi seems to me to be the fact you're doing the same thing, just across two screens instead of one. Mixing roles would seem to result in shooting a friendly and repping the primary. So are there any tricks to the trade, tips to keep things balanced, or is it all experience?

Daneel Trevize
December 6 2011, 11:57:33 PM
I did it in guardians for small gang pvp & pve for a while. Basically because of the gang size it's great when no one else can fly the other logis that second to keep you and your gang viable & then alive, and it's going to piss you/everyone off when you can't alt+tab/whatever fast enough and get both sets of reps cycling when perhaps 2 diff pilots would have managed it (because your gang has so few RR in total). Also you can't easily FC when so busy but as logi you are acutely aware how your gang's doing, EHP and range-wise, plus your own ewar strain.
One bonus is you're aware of how well 2 sets of RR are holding vs incoming dps, you can judge better/fully how close to breaking you are (rather than not knowing how many rr the rest of the gang has cycling, or cooked), if there's 1 or 2 you can hold back spare, or leave running on your sister ship to ease saving yourself, for that's the next trial if you're tanking and in range of hostile dps.
You could well also have enough spare locks after locking all your gang to see the enemy EHP too, and maybe see as many as dps/tackle pilots.

Be damned sure your connection/install won't crap out, and ideally have a 3rd logi flown by someone else so you're not cap dependant on your pair. Sorting the cap chain quick enough after landing/jumping can be a PITA, having to get past the nothing-will-lock phase, iirc guardians do not take kindly to you trying to run the RRs first for more than 1 cycle after a warp without sorting the cap.
Be sure to get one ship orbiting the other at say 5km and then only fly one manually/as the anchor, unless you need to split for some reason. Perhaps obvious points but be sure you have the same overview settings (exported & imported, plus show/hide all brackets) on both accounts, helpful for aligning out as well as taking in what's happening with the enemy from either ship view. It's also handy to have 1 pilot as squad command of the squad the other's in, and be within the wing of someone else, so you can squad warp you two at range of things you won't be jumping, and still be moved in the larger fleet to travel routes.

I always had exactly the same mods setup between both, max use of the Fn buttons, forget about using drones until the fight's calmed down unless you really need to.
As you say, dual boxing between 2 ships that need different flying is a bit of a constant mind-fuck if busy, especially without dual monitors, unless one's fire & forget with enough tackle, buffer or range to let you know it'll be effective without manual flying. You need experience in that ship to know what to quickly set it to do & to look out for and then move on. Watchlist isn't very reliable to know when to move back to logi ship, locking you gangmates if you have sensible spare locks on your dps/tackle ship is an option.

Mfume
December 7 2011, 05:43:19 AM
Two-fisting Guardians is doable, MWD fit kiting Scimis is not.

CastleBravo
December 7 2011, 06:12:29 PM
Sorting the cap chain quick enough after landing/jumping can be a PITA, having to get past the nothing-will-lock phase, iirc guardians do not take kindly to you trying to run the RRs first for more than 1 cycle after a warp without sorting the cap.


A logi-5 guard with four large RR should be able to run for more than 30 seconds without the cap chain. A large solice takes something like 10cap/s to run with max skills (don't have eft at work).

As for multiboxing, you could try using software to clone your mouse input to both windows. Should be easy to do with two and even three logis, but after that it would be a bitch, especially if you have other guards in fleet and need to be able to broadcast.

Cue1*
December 8 2011, 02:01:15 AM
I did it in guardians for small gang pvp & pve for a while. Basically because of the gang size it's great when no one else can fly the other logis that second to keep you and your gang viable & then alive, and it's going to piss you/everyone off when you can't alt+tab/whatever fast enough and get both sets of reps cycling when perhaps 2 diff pilots would have managed it (because your gang has so few RR in total). Also you can't easily FC when so busy but as logi you are acutely aware how your gang's doing, EHP and range-wise, plus your own ewar strain.
One bonus is you're aware of how well 2 sets of RR are holding vs incoming dps, you can judge better/fully how close to breaking you are (rather than not knowing how many rr the rest of the gang has cycling, or cooked), if there's 1 or 2 you can hold back spare, or leave running on your sister ship to ease saving yourself, for that's the next trial if you're tanking and in range of hostile dps.
You could well also have enough spare locks after locking all your gang to see the enemy EHP too, and maybe see as many as dps/tackle pilots.

Be damned sure your connection/install won't crap out, and ideally have a 3rd logi flown by someone else so you're not cap dependant on your pair. Sorting the cap chain quick enough after landing/jumping can be a PITA, having to get past the nothing-will-lock phase, iirc guardians do not take kindly to you trying to run the RRs first for more than 1 cycle after a warp without sorting the cap.
Be sure to get one ship orbiting the other at say 5km and then only fly one manually/as the anchor, unless you need to split for some reason. Perhaps obvious points but be sure you have the same overview settings (exported & imported, plus show/hide all brackets) on both accounts, helpful for aligning out as well as taking in what's happening with the enemy from either ship view. It's also handy to have 1 pilot as squad command of the squad the other's in, and be within the wing of someone else, so you can squad warp you two at range of things you won't be jumping, and still be moved in the larger fleet to travel routes.

I always had exactly the same mods setup between both, max use of the Fn buttons, forget about using drones until the fight's calmed down unless you really need to.
As you say, dual boxing between 2 ships that need different flying is a bit of a constant mind-fuck if busy, especially without dual monitors, unless one's fire & forget with enough tackle, buffer or range to let you know it'll be effective without manual flying. You need experience in that ship to know what to quickly set it to do & to look out for and then move on. Watchlist isn't very reliable to know when to move back to logi ship, locking you gangmates if you have sensible spare locks on your dps/tackle ship is an option.

Lots of useful info, thanks.


Two-fisting Guardians is doable, MWD fit kiting Scimis is not.

Why not? Just use keep at range, and manage the MWD. Don't think it'd be that hard. Or am I missing something?



Sorting the cap chain quick enough after landing/jumping can be a PITA, having to get past the nothing-will-lock phase, iirc guardians do not take kindly to you trying to run the RRs first for more than 1 cycle after a warp without sorting the cap.


A logi-5 guard with four large RR should be able to run for more than 30 seconds without the cap chain. A large solice takes something like 10cap/s to run with max skills (don't have eft at work).

As for multiboxing, you could try using software to clone your mouse input to both windows. Should be easy to do with two and even three logis, but after that it would be a bitch, especially if you have other guards in fleet and need to be able to broadcast.

Monitors are different resolutions, cloning wouldn't work.

Shiroi Okami
December 8 2011, 04:02:44 AM
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Two-fisting Guardians is doable, MWD fit kiting Scimis is not.

Why not? Just use keep at range, and manage the MWD. Don't think it'd be that hard. Or am I missing something?



With scimis you need to be focusing on not getting tackled and killed as well as apply reps when needed. Most scimis in a small gang setting will be diving in and out of rep range and trying to keep as much distance bwteeen themselves and drakes or inties as possible. Doing this with 2 scimmies is very hard, but not impossible. Much easier to dual box guardians where you can just hit orbit 500 on an anchor and focus on applying reps/cap

Mfume
December 8 2011, 05:16:04 AM
With scimis you need to be focusing on not getting tackled and killed as well as apply reps when needed. Most scimis in a small gang setting will be diving in and out of rep range and trying to keep as much distance bwteeen themselves and drakes or inties as possible. Doing this with 2 scimmies is very hard, but not impossible. Much easier to dual box guardians where you can just hit orbit 500 on an anchor and focus on applying reps/cap

Yeah, exactly this. I'll just add that the pace in a Scimi feels much faster as well, since the common shield platforms you're repping tend to have less buffer than what you'd find an armor gang and the Scimi itself is retard fast.

Mesh M
December 8 2011, 12:21:45 PM
I tend to dualbox guardians quite often while running our guardian wing and its really all about getting used to it and setting up some standard procedures to make sure you don't drop the ball on something important. I'd agree that dualboxing scimis is probably more difficult (though that also depends on gangsize). I think Daneel already covered quite a few thingies but to give you an impression on how i run the warpin/jumpin checklist i'll just list the steps i do:

1. decloak first guardian, activate tank, eccm, speedmod and check for rep broadcasts, if you have already a bc put reppers on
2. switch to 2nd screen, lock first guardian and preactivate energy feed, lock bc target, activate mods and put an orbit on the first guardian
3. switch 1st screen and establish full cap chain, check reps and start actually flying manually into position if you haven't done that.

Things to keep in mind:

a) keep your orbit at at least 5 k, otherwise you won't get maximum speed out of an afterburning guardian; this has also consequences to your maximum combat ranges, when keeping range to hostiles keep in mind the repping range of your 2nd pilot might be about 5k less (i calculate with about 7 k to account to responses to changes of direction)
b) never assume you can pilot 2 equally competent singleboxers, you won't!
c) always keep the same character on the same screen (my main is always on the left one) - makes it easier to call for reps/cap on coms if you don't have to doublecheck which account is affected
d) check ranges on both pilots regularly, you can easily doubleklick somewhere by accident and thereby kill your own cap chain
e) neglect drones until situation is under control; generally i tend not to aggress one pilot at all and the second only under save conditions

also for me dualboxing logis is easier than mixing combat and logis but that might be due to me being used to run logis all the time in 2 boxes.

Mesh M
December 8 2011, 12:22:00 PM
blech, doublepost

Batolemaeus
December 17 2011, 10:43:55 PM
Also, set up your UI on both clients so they're identical. Make sure your relevant skills are identical. Make sure the fit is identical.

Eve is a pretty complex game and Logistics can be very stressful. Cut down on any unnecessary information being displayed and minimize the differences between your two clients. The less overhead you have, the more time you can spend on actually doing your job.

If you have space in your fleet, get your own squad with your main as a squad leader. Use squadwarps so you only need to have the alt open when there's actual combat or when you have to jump. You can check if your alt is still with you via watchlist.

Use at least two monitors. Don't alt-tab, use windowed mode. You might be able to pull it off with one big wide-screen monitor, but it's not a good solution.

You should practice establishing reps, cap cycle and aligning after landing on grid or jumping through a gate. As an example, this is what I usually do when I decide to reaproach after jumping into a camp:

Main: Hit approach to the gate, Activate AB (shortcut)
Alt: Hit approach to the gate, Activate AB, cap xfer, reps (shortcuts) and begin locking main
Main: Activate Hardeners and other modules (usually via mouse), start locking alt with xfer and reps hot
Alt: Activate Hardeners

I can pull this off in around 2-3 seconds, so by the time any damage actually arrives, I should already be at full speed with everything turned on. The order is important, since my main will usually receive most of the attention. The low signature means I have a few seconds before any hard hitting weapons can hit me, so Hardeners, reps and mods can wait a bit until both characters are on their way back to the gate.

I have a similar routine for landing on grid. One other thing I often do in fights is let my alt approach my main. I change that when I get webbed, but most of the time that's not the case. It makes navigating on grid much easier and also means that my alt will be aligned to wherever I'm aligning automatically.


Also, dual mwd Scimitars? Are you people mad? I do so much pulsing mwd, dipping in an out, moving across the field, warping to bounces, wrecks, fleet members...If i had to do that with two Scimis, first my head would combust, and then my chars and my fleet would die in a fire.



Yeah, exactly this. I'll just add that the pace in a Scimi feels much faster as well, since the common shield platforms you're repping tend to have less buffer than what you'd find an armor gang and the Scimi itself is retard fast.

Add capacitor micromanagement to that, pulsing mwd...and don't forget that Scimitars flying away from each other will be out of rep range of each other in no time.



Back when the Oneiros had one more medslot, I actually crafted up a Scimitar/Oneiros battle duo capable of both high speed extended tackle, relatively high dps, and a good gtfo option to lure unsuspecting small gangs away from their gates. Then I tried to actually fly that duo..ten minutes in getting used to their behaviour, I had already poured tea into my coffee, dunked a cookie into it (i absolutely never do that), and nearly died to concord.

Samp
December 24 2011, 11:51:06 PM
I've only flown Scimis, and wouldn't evern try to dual box, but frankly two screens with 10 targets each sounds challenging even in a brick-tank armour fleet. I don't mean to statr the obvious, but having that much rep without redundancy isn't a good idea. If you get D/C your fleet dies. If you get a phone call or a slap round the head suddenly making you aware that your girlf/wife has been talking shit in angrier and angrier tones for the last 40 mins; your fleet dies. If you try dual boxing 2 logis, your fleet dies.

Also that costs you bear money. Get better alliance init. Having a good logi team or even pair wins unwinnable fights, but even the best people can drop or go afk at any time, the more seperate poeple you have in your logi team the better. If you can make it owrk on your own, good for you, but you should IMO be recruiting more logi pilots.

Cue1*
December 31 2011, 12:30:21 PM
I've only flown Scimis, and wouldn't evern try to dual box, but frankly two screens with 10 targets each sounds challenging even in a brick-tank armour fleet. I don't mean to statr the obvious, but having that much rep without redundancy isn't a good idea. If you get D/C your fleet dies. If you get a phone call or a slap round the head suddenly making you aware that your girlf/wife has been talking shit in angrier and angrier tones for the last 40 mins; your fleet dies. If you try dual boxing 2 logis, your fleet dies.

Also that costs you bear money. Get better alliance init. Having a good logi team or even pair wins unwinnable fights, but even the best people can drop or go afk at any time, the more seperate poeple you have in your logi team the better. If you can make it owrk on your own, good for you, but you should IMO be recruiting more logi pilots.

Alliance? Lol, not everyone is in 0.0 mate. Been flying logi since before it was cool, so I'm well aware of what a logi can do. Since I currently lack a lady in the house, ignore the phone during eve, and already own a second monitor(and I'm not a big beer drinker) I don't see any of your points.

drealar
January 1 2012, 06:54:07 AM
Some great advice so far in this thread.
The way I do it is;
Decloaking first guard, set up orbit turn on tank eccm etc and immediately alt tab (Second monitor is own mode)(unless someones screaming for reps - I don't check broadcasts while im doing this)), uncloak second guardian, set orbit immediately lock first guardian and have cap trans blinking, then turn on tank eccm. Alt tab back to first guard, lock second, cap then start repping shit. I never bother with drones, they only waste time.
Identical overviews are a must. Graphics set to performance and no other background programs that can interfere/minimize eve are all essential. You can also do things like, have one guard in each squad, with each watchlist full of their own squad members. Or have your own squad so you can warp your alt asap if shit hits the fan. It's all down to personal preference and how many guards in fleet. I wouldn't feel comfortable being the only 2 logi for a few reasons though. Any simple misclick, misalign, miswarp can have your fleet murdered. While you can say "i was dual boxing gimme a break yadda yadda" it was still your choice to dualbox. I always insist on a third guard unless its a scrub fleet of bc's or something.
Oh also, peeling the reppers off as opposed to guessing which rep is on which ship is immensely helpfull when dealing with split fire.
Lastly, make it practice that for everytime fleet stops at a gate or whatever to continue setting up this chain and perfecting it. Being able to do this when shit hits the fan can win a fight in the first few minutes. I can't even remember the last time either of my logi chars have lost one. v0v

WRT scimmys, i haven't tried it, and I don't want to.

EDIT: was posted after a 13hour shift over new years. Fuck yeah!

Hydro
January 6 2012, 09:00:19 AM
Duel box with falcons you stupid pubby.

James john
January 9 2012, 11:17:20 AM
I like boxing because this consider a passion gain game so we will be remind all best aspects and never forget any aspects in life so we will be a best role expectation in life for best health so any activity remain us fit and smart in life.

punkboy101
January 9 2012, 11:56:08 AM
I like boxing because this consider a passion gain game so we will be remind all best aspects and never forget any aspects in life so we will be a best role expectation in life for best health so any activity remain us fit and smart in life.

Wat........:psyduck:

Varcaus
January 9 2012, 05:51:03 PM
I like boxing because this consider a passion gain game so we will be remind all best aspects and never forget any aspects in life so we will be a best role expectation in life for best health so any activity remain us fit and smart in life.

Wat........:psyduck:

Who the fuck allowed "guest" posting?:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::f acepalm::psyduck::psyduck::psyduck::psyduck::psydu ck:

Daneel Trevize
January 9 2012, 06:41:31 PM
They were shoved to guest after posting & being reported...

On topic: with guardians/basi, be sure to stagger the cap trans if you have logi4/2 trans on each fit anyway and are cap-chaining yourself. It takes half a cycle's wait on each account to set up but it's more neut-proof.