Fixing tier slot counts [BC Hulls]

[prometheus]

I'd like to have the slot problems with ship tiers fixed. This has been talked about a couple times on a couple forums, so I figured I'd make a general post to gather some thoughts on it.
Some frigates, Battlecruisers & Battleships have ships out of tier. For example, the Incursus & Inquisitor are missing a slot.

I'm only going to go over BCs, because I feel are the only ones that really stand out, as the Minmatar CSs are significantly *better* than the others.
I blame the one extra slot more than ACs, because that slot would likely be a high or a low.
Currently the Cyclone hulls have 1 slot too many, so rather than remove the slot from ALL those hulls I want to give the rest of the CSs 1 more slot.
A Sleipnir/Claymore with 1 less slot is shit, so adding another to make the others match up makes more sense.

Basically it would work like this;
Astarte, +1 high (turret)
Eos, +1 mid (and 100m3 bw)
Nighthawk, +1 mid (and +110 base pg)
Vulture, +1 high (turret)
Absolution, +1 mid
Damnation, +1 high (launcher)

How would that sound to you guys?
I think it sounds like a pretty solid deal.

EDIT:
Here is a graph with some rough numbers with these changes in mind.
http://i.imgur.com/4wjs9.png

I've also included the fits I used to achieve these numbers: LINK (http://imgur.com/a/vHK2D/)

EDIT:
FINE, the Cyclone can keep its low.

[Marlona Sky]

Give Astarte 9th turret slot.

[Suleiman Shouaa]

I honestly think the Absolution needs an extra high slot (turret slot). It's a bit of a joke that the Harbinger has 7 and the Absolution only has 6 meaning that the Absolution is only really competitive with CS V which IMO is not how things should work.

Since we're kinda talking about Command Ships, what do people think of changing all their role bonuses to only allowing 1 Warfare Link, but for the Claymore/Damnation/Eos/Vulture to have their ship bonuses changed so that each level of Command Ship allows for an additional Warfare Link to be used simultaneously?

At the same time, swapping the bonuses around so that the "tanking" bonuses are all on the Battlecruiser skill and the "gang" bonuses are all on the (higher ranked, optional) Command Ship skill would make Command Ship V worth the SP. Of course this would mean getting rid of a single current bonus - I suggest their offensive bonus with the Eos gets it's dronebay upgrade rolled into the ship hull by raising base dronebay to 225m3.

Thoughts?

[prometheus]

I honestly think the Absolution needs an extra high slot (turret slot). It's a bit of a joke that the Harbinger has 7 and the Absolution only has 6 meaning that the Absolution is only really competitive with CS V which IMO is not how things should work.That's essentially how all the command ships work. The Sleipnir/Astarte/Nighthawk all have the same thing.
If you think the Abso needs another gun over a 4th midslot, then you are not a very good Amarr pilot.

[Zibu]

One thing you seem to be missing is that Cyclone gets one extra high slot.
And it gets that high slot only because it has split weapons.

You could argue about dropping one high slot out of Claymore or Sleip, but taking a low slot from a cyclone will only make it even more worthless (just as the Nag was worthless when it had one less mid/low then the other dreads on the base of having an extra high even though it didn't have any more dps)

If you really want to take a slot out of the Cyclone, make it a mini sleip - 7 highs, 7 turrets.

Edit:
If you really want to argue about equalizing BC slot counts, maybe you should rather look at equalizing slots between tier 1 / tier 2 BC as the tier 2 ones have universally more slots and that's the reason why no one uses tier 1 ones.

[prometheus]

The Cyclone was actually given a mid slot iirc.
Where those slots are allocated doesn't matter, just as long as the total number of slots is equal across the tier.

The difference in slot count between tiers is pretty much what makes them different.
All the tier2 ships have the same number of slots.

As for the Sleipnir and Claymore, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that removing one slot from those ships would be catastrophic.
In the Sleipnirs case, one less low or high would relate to ~100 less dps.
The reduction of 1 Cyclone low & the addition of an extra slot to the OTHER Commands is a universally better idea.

All the other commandships are notably worse than the Minmatar, so an extra slot would promote use while increasing your bang for buck.
Suddenly you niche Vulture can be used for pvp, the Absolution can track AND tank, the Eos can tank AND brawl etc..

[Sponk]

Hang on, what about tiericide?

[prometheus]

Probably won't happen anytime soon.
That's why I propose this :D

Besides other than imbalances here and there, I don't see the problem with tiers.
Without them you'd have to go and balance all the ships again.

[Pattern]

Nope.

[prometheus]

Nope.
Informative.

[Smuggo]

Could work. I kinda like the Cyclone as it is but I guess one less low wouldn't be too bad since I mostly just use them in a total gank setup anyway so could just drop the DC2.

[CastleBravo]

Cyclone is fine, just give the other three tier-1 BCs another slot, and give the proph and 14 inch penis another turret. Oh, and make the Eos a shield-tanking astarte.

[Mike deVoid]

I feel a full balance pass that incorporated tiericide is what should be done. Applying your suggested re-balance would make this much less likely to happen.

[Pattern]

This is the worst kind of balancing imo, picking something based off a few hours on EFT instead of reacting to what the actual landscape is like in game.

I just don't know what it fixes. Nerf's rarely have a positive impact in a specific direction, if the nerf is strong enough, people just tend to default to the next best thing.

In this case, you've arbitrarily decided that the baseline performance is X and have suggested changes that don't really make any sense, just because the preferred outcome (tiericide) isn't happening (any reason on that?).

Beyond making the Astarte bonifide shield tanker, I'd rather it became the fleet commandship because it's a fucking brick. Increase the grid and give it a tracking bonus with all fleet commandships receiving a HP bonus so it could fit rails and a decent armour tank. This would stop the deimos from being overshadowed and allow for a proper drone carrier-ganker in the Eos, with 125mb drones and perhaps a drone damage bonus. As for the Abso and Damnation, I see them often enough not to be concerned.

Nighthawk and Vulture could both use a mid and a weapons hardpoint though tbhf.

[Marn Prestoc]

Cyclone has been 8 (5+3) Highs, 5 Mids, 4 Lows since at least 2006 when I was flying them either shield or armour tanked (dual webbing inty lols) before rigs, before HP boost, and before the Hurricane existed. They were great fun, swapping setups easily.... rigs came and that went out the window, could say it was a nerf of its flexability to use the same insured hull.

I don't see the point in it losing a low just because it has a slot extra, will just make it a bit worse and keep all the tier 1 BCs as only really a "lol, they're a bit naff but people will engage them" ship. If anything the other tier 1's need an extra slot, the starting HP and other stats would keep the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2.

[Cavalira]

Boost the tier1 bcs to balance.
Hurricane, Harbinger, drake and myrmidon is too overused imo. Espeically le'Cane/drake

[Mfume]

I'm confused to how/why the Cyclone is OP with it's +1 slot...? I mean the Myrm has -1 slot compared to every other tier 2 BC and it's balanced, so why does slot count even matter?

[prometheus]

Fair enough, hows about just adding the slots to the command ships and forgetting about the T1 BCs

[Marlona Sky]

I don't think this is the fix your looking for, not that they all need a fix. You may fix one, and then another becomes very OP tbh.

[smagd]

I'm confused to how/why the Cyclone is OP with it's +1 slot...? I mean the Myrm has -1 slot compared to every other tier 2 BC and it's balanced, so why does slot count even matter?

I was thinking the same. See the slot counts of Tier 1 BS for example:

Typhoon 8 (5+5) - 4 - 7 = 19
Armageddon 8 (7+0) - 3- 8 = 19
Dominix 7 (6+0) - 5 - 6 = 18
Scorpion 6 (4+4) - 8 - 4 = 18

If you allow for some balancing like "remove a mod slot if drones or ECM are primary weapon" and "add a mod slot for split weapon systems" the above list should be ordered most powerful on top, and it hardly seems to be in spite of projectiles being damn powerful, see Sleipnir and Hurricane.

On that basis I doubt your method of balancing by leveling the number of mod slots.

On the other hand, I can see what you're trying to do with individual ships.

[prometheus]

You may fix one, and then another becomes very OP tbh.
I'm not sure how that would happen though, it's not like they are getting more grid or anything (except NH).
The Minmatar CS would remain (arguably) the best due to the combination of high engagement range, dps, and tank. Paired with the possibility of crystals, they're still a cut above the rest.

The Nighthawk would become useful in pvp with the extra grid and mid slot. Right now it can't fit a damn thing, it's tank/dps ratio is the worst of the bunch.
Extra grid means it can fit a better tank AND do more damage simply because it will have the room to do so (ie: hams w/out 2x RCU).

The Sleipnir is currently the DPS king. Although the Astarte can do *more dps*, it doesn't have any resemblance to a tank when doing so.
The extra low would allow the ship to have a tank AND do the damage it's designed to. Unlike the Sleipnir it's effective range is still limited to scramble/neut range, so I don't see this as being totally overpowering.

The Eos & Vulture are similar in that they are either worse or on par with their T1 counterparts. The Eos is essentially a Myrmidon with tank and without utility, while the Vulture is a Ferox with tank and without damage.
Giving the Vulture the 1 extra high turret bumps its damage up to be on par with the Claymore, while having the same size tank (only with smaller cargo). The Eos getting an extra mid & 25m3 makes it worth flying again as it is no longer limp wristed and can actually (if so chosen) take advantage of its own warfare links by fitting ECCM or 2nd injector.

The Absolution isn't a massive DPS machine to begin with, and giving it a 4th mid without extra grid basically suggests you need to downgrade some guns to fit a cap injector on your already tight fit.
The Damnation is probably the *closest* to overpowering. It would have a pretty large buffer with a moderate active tank with pretty low (sub 500) damage output, offset by a pair of medium neuts. Reducing its powergrid or base armor might be in order.

So yea I don't really see them as becoming OP with the extra slots, merely on par with the benchmark (Minmatar).
If there is something you think I'm missing in this whole thing, lemme know.

[Sponk]

wait, vultures are meant to have guns? when did this happen?

[Wrack]

Why fixate on slot count? Just balance the ships as a whole. Mandating that all ships have to have the same slot count is just going to cripple your ability to balance them and make the ships boringly homogenous.

[prometheus]

Well IMO the Command ships suffer from sameness to their T1 counterparts, and some lose out because of it.
ie: Myrmidon is a more effective brawler than the Eos, because it has more mid slots. Giving the ship more/less of a bonus wouldn't really change that without breaking the ships design.

In the case of the Nighthawk, it suffers from a very weak tank and awful awful grid. Simply adjusting the bonus doesn't get around that you are still low on tank AND dps.

[Mfume]

Fair enough, hows about just adding the slots to the command ships and forgetting about the T1 BCs

+1 to that, except, possibly, the Damnation.


Why fixate on slot count? Just balance the ships as a whole. Mandating that all ships have to have the same slot count is just going to cripple your ability to balance them and make the ships boringly homogenous.

I don't really know shit about Gallente, but the Nighthawk, certainly needs an additional mid and some PG. It opens up quite a few interesting things you can do with the ship.

[Shiroi Okami]

Well IMO the Command ships suffer from sameness to their T1 counterparts, and some lose out because of it.
ie: Myrmidon is a more effective brawler than the Eos, because it has more mid slots. Giving the ship more/less of a bonus wouldn't really change that without breaking the ships design.

In the case of the Nighthawk, it suffers from a very weak tank and awful awful grid. Simply adjusting the bonus doesn't get around that you are still low on tank AND dps.

With the nighthawk though, aren't you giving it +1 launcher and +100pg? Which means it's going to still have the same grid issues for tank because it's still using up all it's grid on launchers

[prometheus]

Well IMO the Command ships suffer from sameness to their T1 counterparts, and some lose out because of it.
ie: Myrmidon is a more effective brawler than the Eos, because it has more mid slots. Giving the ship more/less of a bonus wouldn't really change that without breaking the ships design.

In the case of the Nighthawk, it suffers from a very weak tank and awful awful grid. Simply adjusting the bonus doesn't get around that you are still low on tank AND dps.

With the nighthawk though, aren't you giving it +1 launcher and +100pg? Which means it's going to still have the same grid issues for tank because it's still using up all it's grid on launchers


+1 midslot & +100pg.
Allow you to fit both a viable HML and HAM fitting

[Marlona Sky]

Nighthawk has an amazing tank. Your doing it wrong!

[prometheus]

Crystals + Links != Amazing tank
The only time it has an amazing tank, is without a propulsion mod. That somewhat defeats the purpose as both for its role of mobile link ship, and awesome looking pvp drake.

[Pattern]

It tanks almost as well as a slipnier. IIRC everyone and their dog seems to believe the sleipnier has an amazing tank? (lol5mids)

[Suleiman Shouaa]

It tanks almost as well as a slipnier. IIRC everyone and their dog seems to believe the sleipnier has an amazing tank? (lol5mids)

You're thinking of a Claymore, not a Sleipnir..

[Pattern]

It tanks almost as well as a slipnier. IIRC everyone and their dog seems to believe the sleipnier has an amazing tank? (lol5mids)

You're thinking of a Claymore, not a Sleipnir..
Whenever I say "lolactive tanking bonuses" - I'm immediately harangued by people who swear by the awesome active tanking bonus on the Sleipnir. You saying that's BS? That all those uber, manual piloting pvp'ers with elite 20% efficiency are wrong? That in reality, most people just fit as many LSE's and Invuls as possible because lolactivetanking?

Yes, the Sleipnir has 5 mids, so does the nighthawk. One provides a 33% increase to active tanking (AND everything else...), the other a 37.5% bonus to just active tanking, yet the former has a demonstrably shit tank.

Sure, being faster than a lot of t1 cruisers, doing actual DPS with a flexible weapons system, along with gang links almost everyone and there dog would like to use helps too, but apparently slots are the most important aspect as they must all have the same amount... So.

[prometheus]

Even so, Sleipnir has a better (potential) tank since it can fit an XL booster.
That and it does 2x the effective damage.

[Pattern]

Even so, Sleipnir has a better (potential) tank since it can fit an XL booster.
That and it does 2x the effective damage.
I've seen some XL nighthawk fits although fittings is shit, but what that has to do with slots i'm not sure. Not that I'm not against better more balanced commandships, it's just the approach is :psyduck:

[Mfume]

I've seen some XL nighthawk fits although fittings is shit, but what that has to do with slots i'm not sure. Not that I'm not against better more balanced commandships, it's just the approach is :psyduck:

Well, a kiting Nighthawk fit with an oversized (brawl-tanking) shield booster is pretty ridic from a balance standpoint. I think it's dumb that the Nighthawk gets CS bonuses only to HMLs, but I can see CCP's intent.

[Suleiman Shouaa]

It tanks almost as well as a slipnier. IIRC everyone and their dog seems to believe the sleipnier has an amazing tank? (lol5mids)

You're thinking of a Claymore, not a Sleipnir..
Whenever I say "lolactive tanking bonuses" - I'm immediately harangued by people who swear by the awesome active tanking bonus on the Sleipnir. You saying that's BS? That all those uber, manual piloting pvp'ers with elite 20% efficiency are wrong? That in reality, most people just fit as many LSE's and Invuls as possible because lolactivetanking?

Yes, the Sleipnir has 5 mids, so does the nighthawk. One provides a 33% increase to active tanking (AND everything else...), the other a 37.5% bonus to just active tanking, yet the former has a demonstrably shit tank.

Sure, being faster than a lot of t1 cruisers, doing actual DPS with a flexible weapons system, along with gang links almost everyone and there dog would like to use helps too, but apparently slots are the most important aspect as they must all have the same amount... So.

No I'm just stating that the Claymore has a much, much better tank than a Sleipnir (extra mid + better base resists). The Sleipnir has a lower (consistent) active tank than a dual rep Myrmidon unless you have a full set of LG Crystals and then the Sleipnir has a slight edge.

And if you go for a XL tank, GL. I've broken those solo in a Myrmidon because of how crap they actually are at dealing with consistent incoming DPS.

[Pattern]

I know exactly how shit a sleipnirs tank is, the original point was ironic (hint lolactivetanking) and described the fact that the nighthawk was of the same class.

Why a field commands ship should get a fleetcommandship strength tank I don't think has been explained.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

The Sleipnir is currently the DPS king. Although the Astarte can do *more dps*, it doesn't have any resemblance to a tank when doing so.

Are you considering the post-patch buff including the 10% damage boost and T2 tanking links?

full rack of neutrons, dual cap booster, dual rep, all with only 1 ACR. One might argue that it's still "lol gallente" as far as range and possibly speed but giving it another low would make it pretty extreme, given that it has more than enough CPU to fit another full-power low slot (EANM or MFS)

To be fair, a gallente field CS probably SHOULD be the unrivaled king of brawling and a cause for concern when it hits the field, which an additional lowslot would unquestionably make it.

[prometheus]

^ Yes, I am including the boosts.
The extra low would make it very well suited for close range brawling. Either gaining roughly 100dps, or keeping about 800 while tanking a sizable amount.
Neuts prevent this ship (or anything Gallente) from ever becoming overpowered.

The way I see it, people should be really concerned if either of the Gallente CS get a tackle on you.
A similar rule applies for the Damnation & Absolution.

[Marlona Sky]

Balancing ships based off the mythical solo experience is pretty fucking dumb.

[prometheus]

Balancing ships based off the mythical solo experience is pretty fucking dumb.
who said anything about solo?

[Tyrus Tenebros]

^ Yes, I am including the boosts.
The extra low would make it very well suited for close range brawling. Either gaining roughly 100dps, or keeping about 800 while tanking a sizable amount.
Neuts prevent this ship (or anything Gallente) from ever becoming overpowered.

The way I see it, people should be really concerned if either of the Gallente CS get a tackle on you.
A similar rule applies for the Damnation & Absolution.Well people are generally concerned if a damna tackles them, just because they tend to last long enough for whoever they tackle to die first.

Abso could use some tweaking. The problem I see is that the sig radius isnt quite low enough to really do much for you, aside from, say, tanking torps. As a result, buffing CS much more from now really just makes them functionally equivalent to Battleships with a bit more speed (e.g. active tanked astarte and active tanked hyperion). As a result it seems for CS to become truly relevant they need some sort of unique bonus not seen in BS. Perhaps they should consider changing field commands is to give them ALL a single utility highslot, and the PG to fit a single link, and balance their dps to be roughly equivalent to what it is now. Or just outright introduce a fourth "combat link" for each race that can ONLY be fit to the field command ship.

Additionally, give them the 3%/level bonus to the single link. This gives them a unique ability not seen in battleships.

[prometheus]

I say no to anything link related.
The linking mechanics need to be fixed, and until that happens I am 100% against it.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

I say no to anything link related.
The linking mechanics need to be fixed, and until that happens I am 100% against it.See thread. As a gateway drug to all on-grid links, the combat links would be specifically restricted to on-grid effect and you would only ever be able to run one at a time on a command ship.

[prometheus]

There's nothing wrong with the idea, it's that ongrid isn't possible at the moment.
Therefore I am against adding any new links to the game, this includes the T2 stuff =/

[whispous]

Yea the issue with t2 links is that they just become a necessity rather than an advantage

[Sponk]

I don't think I'd bother putting a T2 link on a cheap roaming battlecruiser, but obv I'd roll with three or four on a command ship (judicious faction etc etc)

[prometheus]

After having a brief chat about some of these changes, I've decided to change my initial thoughts of the Astarte having an extra low.
It was possible to have a 1k dps tank without having any heat, fancy mods, or links. It was a bit much as it EASILY overshadowed the Eos in both tank AND dps when fit like that.

As a result I've changed the post to reflect 1 extra high (turret).
This gives the Astarte a DPS edge (like MFS) without adjusting its current ability to tank.

[thebomby]

...
I don't really know shit about Gallente, but the Nighthawk, certainly needs an additional mid and some PG. It opens up quite a few interesting things you can do with the ship.Sell it buy a Tengu?

[Sponk]

Nah, passive nighthawk at least has a niche.