The problem with intel in Eve

[Shin_getter]

There are very little "nonconsensual" engagement in Eve. Anyone who seriously tried hunting bots understands how intel tools make unwanted engagement difficult even against even the most stupid opponent.

The problem is not just local. The problem is that Eve as a whole allow safe collection of intel in many cases.

The most obvious ones:
Local
D-Scan while cloaked
Probes with cloaked
Monitoring gates while cloaked
Starmap of recent activity

I would like an area of space where such free intel is no longer possible. After WH like local, cloaked ships should lose all long range intel gathering ability and can not cloak in system entry and exit points. Intel should only be obtained by placing an ship somewhere vulnerable to attack.

This would mean conflict avoidance via scouting would be vastly more difficult and would result in a completely different PvE and PvP dynamic. The standard "scout and blob" PvP fleets become easily blinded, and the application of combat power is sometimes necessary to scout and force the opponent into revealing his hand. There would be scouts that move ahead of fleets, anti-scout groups that kills any scouts that is found, and anti-anti-scout groups when your scouts are killed, and so on and so forth. This would bring the "armed scout" concept into Eve, the original role for the battlecruiser, which is a scout that can kill enemy scouts and penetrate screens to find the main opponent mass without dying.

[Mike deVoid]

No cloaking on-grid with a gate? Ever? That affects much more than scouting. I can understand wanting to nerf d-scan when cloaked but this affects much more than scouting as appears completely over the top. OP gatecamps are go I guess

[Shiroi Okami]

Retarded idea. Nerfing, d-scan, map and cloaking on grid of gates would not change anything. Least of all scout and blob tactics. People would just use a stiletto instead of an arazu, and still use the same tired old scout tackles solo/small group target -> blob jumps in. Literally pointless.

[Mfume]

There are very little "nonconsensual" engagement in Eve.

There is plenty. POS Tmers and sov warfare are exactly that. I can't begin to tell you the number of times when I was in the NC that I showed up to a timer where we were 100% certain we were going to get our shit pushed in, but still fought anyway. And occasionally saved the tower!

[Shin_getter]

and still use the same tired old scout tackles solo/small group target -> blob jumps in. Literally pointless.
The difference is that you don't know if there is a bigger blob next door. As a result, the superior tactic is to jump only enough ships to kill the opponent "reliably" but not "commit everything" and potentially get countered far worst. One can also send semi-bait task force to see if the opponent commit more ships for you to counter blob, so and so on. The inability to have cloaky alts everywhere makes knowing whether you are not flying into a trap means new tactics can be built.


OP gatecamps are go I guess
There is no gatecamp more OP then one where it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose ships. I've been part of those sebo loki/mach camps with scouts 2 jumps into every nearby system. It is a physical impossibility to ever lose ships since they have near perfect intel on stuff that can threaten them.

Without invulnerable scouts, if you knew there is a gate camp somewhere, you can just keep farming the killmails of scouts until the opponent leaves a gap in scouting, then you throw in the blob and surprise the campers on the other side.

[Marlona Sky]

Remove local, revamp directional scanner and remove recent activity from the star map. Star with that and see how it goes.

[Rynnik]

Remove local, revamp directional scanner and remove recent activity from the star map. Star with that and see how it goes.

Did you read my post here: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?4353-IDEA-In-System-Intel-Revision? It is essentially a proposal for what you are saying cobbled together from stolen ideas after lurking here, watching EVE-O and a few discussions in our corp forums.

Anyways I don't particularly agree with shin as I would rather see active cloaky intel buffed, with passive all knowing intel nerfed (ie local). If someone is gathering intel on you in a cloaky you will figure it out if you are roaming as they follow you through gates etc. If you are good you can eliminate that intel capability by getting lucky with a well planned decloak catch or live with the idea that your enemy is gathering information and try to balance what they can see accordingly. Alternatively if you are camping a gate station etc, minimizing your risk, you are also making it much easier for someone to gathering information on you cloaked with no idea on your part (if local is gone). That to me sounds like a better start state to try and balance from.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

No D-scan while cloaked is the most logical starting point to this change. That way only ships with expanded probe launchers could gather intel while cloaked and the enemy would know (more or less) that they are being scouted.

Frankly I think no-local would simply stifle PvP and solo 0.0 PvE to an absolutely extraordinary level. There are plenty of "non-consensual" engagements in Eve already, depending on your definition. How can you possibly make that claim when pilots are consistently getting ganked by camps, still killing noobs left and right, and there's plenty of mechanisms for drawing a fight that already conceal or otherwise obfuscate your intelligence. It's not hard to actually catch a gang that's trying to run. Attackers in 0.0 space already don't know how many of the hostiles in a series of station systems are actually active or afk.

Shiroi I've seen you fly and I have some respect for you but I also see you consistently arguing for changes (like this one) that give massive advantage to solo roamers over.... not other PvP forces (indeed this would actually horribly nerf solo PvP in any crowded space) ... but over PvE'rs. Mashing d-scan, doing a song and dance, or setting up a W-Space worthy fleet just to run a haven in K-space is just silly.

I honestly think the whole complaint about intel is completely ridiculous and decreasing our tools (beyond the mentioned no-d-scan-while-cloaked change, which I think is good) would make the game distinctly less enjoyable. (no i dont care that people do it W-space, that space is there and DIFFERENT because you can CHOOSE to pursue the high rewards, at high risk, that it entails)

[Shiroi Okami]

No D-scan while cloaked is the most logical starting point to this change. That way only ships with expanded probe launchers could gather intel while cloaked and the enemy would know (more or less) that they are being scouted.

Frankly I think no-local would simply stifle PvP and solo 0.0 PvE to an absolutely extraordinary level. There are plenty of "non-consensual" engagements in Eve already, depending on your definition. How can you possibly make that claim when pilots are consistently getting ganked by camps, still killing noobs left and right, and there's plenty of mechanisms for drawing a fight that already conceal or otherwise obfuscate your intelligence. It's not hard to actually catch a gang that's trying to run. Attackers in 0.0 space already don't know how many of the hostiles in a series of station systems are actually active or afk.

Shiroi I've seen you fly and I have some respect for you but I also see you consistently arguing for changes (like this one) that give massive advantage to solo roamers over.... not other PvP forces (indeed this would actually horribly nerf solo PvP in any crowded space) ... but over PvE'rs. Mashing d-scan, doing a song and dance, or setting up a W-Space worthy fleet just to run a haven in K-space is just silly.

I honestly think the whole complaint about intel is completely ridiculous and decreasing our tools (beyond the mentioned no-d-scan-while-cloaked change, which I think is good) would make the game distinctly less enjoyable. (no i dont care that people do it W-space, that space is there and DIFFERENT because you can CHOOSE to pursue the high rewards, at high risk, that it entails)

What? How was I in any was supporting this idea? I said it was pointless and/or retarded. I think removing local in k-space would be interesting, but I'm by no means a major proponent of it, I'd rather see another buff to the d-scan's range (Like the recent on board anom scanner buff, which was great) before I'd want to see local removed.

Edit: Although I regularly use the map for finding places to go that actually have people to stir up, so I also think removing that would be a terrible idea

[Marlona Sky]

I think removing local in k-space would be interesting

The fuck? I'm confused.


I'd rather see another buff to the d-scan's range (Like the recent on board anom scanner buff, which was great) before I'd want to see local removed.

WHAT?!?!


Edit: Although I regularly use the map for finding places to go that actually have people to stir up, so I also think removing that would be a terrible idea

I don't like the filter that shows the number of current players in the system, docked, npcs destroyed. I do like the filter that shows player ships and pods destroyed. You think less information kills solo play, but your wrong. If a blob has no clue where the action is then they will have to send out scouts and such to gather intel. Maybe even splitting up the blob and fan out. One guy opening the map and being able to gather the amount of intel they can now and directing the blob to a specific system is dumb.

Of course if the blob is full of pussies who are too chicken shit to undock without knowing where everyone is for 30 jumps there is nothing that can be done for them.

[Shiroi Okami]

I think removing local in k-space would be interesting

The fuck? I'm confused.


I'd rather see another buff to the d-scan's range (Like the recent on board anom scanner buff, which was great) before I'd want to see local removed.

WHAT?!?!


Edit: Although I regularly use the map for finding places to go that actually have people to stir up, so I also think removing that would be a terrible idea

I don't like the filter that shows the number of current players in the system, docked, npcs destroyed. I do like the filter that shows player ships and pods destroyed. You think less information kills solo play, but your wrong. If a blob has no clue where the action is then they will have to send out scouts and such to gather intel. Maybe even splitting up the blob and fan out. One guy opening the map and being able to gather the amount of intel they can now and directing the blob to a specific system is dumb.

Of course if the blob is full of pussies who are too chicken shit to undock without knowing where everyone is for 30 jumps there is nothing that can be done for them.

I agree that would be a good change, but for small gangs and solo, where I literally open up the map and say oh hey, there's 30 active in that system, guess I'll go stir some trouble up, instead of having to wade through hundreds of empty systems to find one with people in it because i have no idea where to look is kind of gay. That solution would be fine if nullsec's population density was more than that of the sahara desert

[Marlona Sky]

I agree that would be a good change, but for small gangs and solo, where I literally open up the map and say oh hey, there's 30 active in that system, guess I'll go stir some trouble up, instead of having to wade through hundreds of empty systems to find one with people in it because i have no idea where to look is kind of gay. That solution would be fine if nullsec's population density was more than that of the sahara desert

That helps for solo and small gang stuff, but it is amplified for power blocks and such. You have to remember the same intel can be used to evade fights just as easily. As far as wading through hundreds of systems to find people, you are fresh on the scene of null sec, don't follow the news of who is beating up on who, have little time to play the game or lazy. Or possibly all of the above. I think larger blobs should make a lot more noise so to speak that solo/small gangs. So it is much easier to find the blob vs. the blob looking for a couple gorilla fighters. How that 'noise' mechanic should be is anyone's guess, but for someone to do two clicks to get decently accurate intel on target movement is too damn effortless for that kind of information.

[Cavalira]

Remove local in nullsec imo.
I wish nullsec were a place where people rat in a constant fear. Afterall they make tons of money ratting there, why no risk?
This also makes big CTA fights more exciting. Because you cant see how many the opponent got in the system. Hidden backupz at deep safe...
We should keep the map, that tells us where the activity is. It's so gay doing 50-100 jumps, while trying to avoid bubbles/camps, and you end up dying to a 20man camp.
CCP should also paste some bigger balls on everyone in eve. Everyone is so scared. People think that a -10 interceptor can fire DDs and stuffz. They never engage.

[Shiroi Okami]

*Solo dual rep typhoon in the back arse of nowehere in nullsec*

*6 man bc gang runs away from me, accusing me of having a cyno fit and a titan on standby*

mfw

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/421008297_4809bd7b35.jpg

Cannot agree with that balls statement more. Removing killboards would probably help though

[Marlona Sky]

Removing killboards would probably help though
Removing killmails will not give those guys a set of balls. They still would have ran and used the cyno excuse to feel better about themselves.

I'm curious how they ran though. See you on scanner? You land on gate and they jumped or something?

[Smuggo]

OP is a retard. Non-consensual fights happen in eve all the time.

[Durzel]

No dscanning whilst cloaked would make it effectively impossible to probe down stuff in wormholes running sites that aren't on regular scanner (e.g. Radars, Mags, Ladars)

[Shiroi Okami]

Removing killboards would probably help though
Removing killmails will not give those guys a set of balls. They still would have ran and used the cyno excuse to feel better about themselves.

I'm curious how they ran though. See you on scanner? You land on gate and they jumped or something?

I saw a few people in local in a usually empty system so I warped to a spot off the gate i was trying to get out of, saw them camping a drag bubble, 2 canes and a harbinger on the bubble, 2 drakes and another cane a good way off the bubble. I warp down to the bubble as they start moving out of it and as I start locking them up they all warp off to their own spot off the gate and start talking shit. I wish I could say I hadn't seen exact such practices by small drag bubble camping gangs more than once

[Tsubutai]

Risk aversion and intel gathering are two separate things and you can't alter the one by fucking up the other; any attempt to do so is doomed to failure and will just make the game shittier and more boring to play.

[Marlona Sky]

I saw a few people in local in a usually empty system so I warped to a spot off the gate i was trying to get out of, saw them camping a drag bubble, 2 canes and a harbinger on the bubble, 2 drakes and another cane a good way off the bubble. I warp down to the bubble as they start moving out of it and as I start locking them up they all warp off to their own spot off the gate and start talking shit. I wish I could say I hadn't seen exact such practices by small drag bubble camping gangs more than once

That is because even though you were by yourself and in a bigger ship. You being agressive like that made them think you had an Ace up your sleeve. If you didn't lock them and burned right at the gate, they would have engaged.... maybe.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

No D-scan while cloaked is the most logical starting point to this change. That way only ships with expanded probe launchers could gather intel while cloaked and the enemy would know (more or less) that they are being scouted.

Frankly I think no-local would simply stifle PvP and solo 0.0 PvE to an absolutely extraordinary level. There are plenty of "non-consensual" engagements in Eve already, depending on your definition. How can you possibly make that claim when pilots are consistently getting ganked by camps, still killing noobs left and right, and there's plenty of mechanisms for drawing a fight that already conceal or otherwise obfuscate your intelligence. It's not hard to actually catch a gang that's trying to run. Attackers in 0.0 space already don't know how many of the hostiles in a series of station systems are actually active or afk.

Shiroi I've seen you fly and I have some respect for you but I also see you consistently arguing for changes (like this one) that give massive advantage to solo roamers over.... not other PvP forces (indeed this would actually horribly nerf solo PvP in any crowded space) ... but over PvE'rs. Mashing d-scan, doing a song and dance, or setting up a W-Space worthy fleet just to run a haven in K-space is just silly.

I honestly think the whole complaint about intel is completely ridiculous and decreasing our tools (beyond the mentioned no-d-scan-while-cloaked change, which I think is good) would make the game distinctly less enjoyable. (no i dont care that people do it W-space, that space is there and DIFFERENT because you can CHOOSE to pursue the high rewards, at high risk, that it entails)

What? How was I in any was supporting this idea? I said it was pointless and/or retarded.Fuck me sorry Shiroi was posting from phone and got the names mixed up. Fuuuuu