T3 Frigates - Nom nom nom?

[Marlona Sky]

So T3 frigates. What should they be?

At first when thinking about them the very first thing that popped into my head would be just smaller versions of the the T3 cruisers, but then I realized that would not really be anything new and exciting. Similar, but not the same, is what they should be.

So I was wondering what should the goals of such a ship be? What should they avoid becoming?

One thing I would like to see avoided is skill point loss. Skill point loss discourages some people from flying the current T3 cruisers and when you factor in the fact these will be frigates and most likely lost much easier, losing skill points just doesn't seem to add any real enjoyment to either the person flying the T3's and the one who is killing them. I am sure some of you may take a few minutes to fap furiously hard if manage to kill someone in a T3 praying the person lost some skill points, or did they manage to eject before it went boom? If for some reason everyone in the galaxy is flying around in T3 frigates, then maybe introducing a skill point loss system for them would seem to be more appropriate, perhaps a diet version of the current T3 cruisers have.

So on to them being something different and maintain some similarities of the current T3 cruisers. T3 cruisers can fill several roles at the same time and can be configured to perform many roles if given the chance to change out subsystems in between them. So instead of being able to fill many roles and having to dock at a station or a POS to change their subsystems out (yes, I said POS because that is what they better have fucking figured out by the time they introduce T3 frigates and give us that 5th subsystem /rage off), I was thinking more along the lines of they have two roles, maybe three, but can only really use one well at one time. There might be only 2-3 subsystems they can put on the hull. The main thing I would like to see them do is well, transform in flight from one amplified role to another. Not some retardedly long transformation like the Rorqual, but more like 2-3 things that shift/flip/move that changes the look of the ship.

An example being a T3 frigate that moves and acts similar to an interceptor. A majority of the resources are devoted to propulsion and tackling. It has the firepower and tank of a normal frigate. Then when it tackles a target and gets close enough, it has the option to transform into something similar to an assault frigate. (not the shitty version of what we have now that gets raped hard because of shit agility and large signature radius, no 4th bonus, etc, etc /rage off). In this mode its fire power increases a lot along with its tank. Of course its propulsion system goes down along with it's tackle range. Perhaps the signature radius goes up some to due to it no longer having a low profile. Similar to a cobra snake when it goes into attack mode and the fangs come out and it gets that large hood on it's back to look bigger.

But that is just me thinking. What are you ideas on what it should and should not be?

EDIT: This is another idea I posted at the top of the second page, but some people did not see it:

Wolf-Rayet wormholes have a very unique environmental effect. They nerf shields, boost armor, lower ship signature radius and boost small weapon damage output. The signature radius and small weapon damage output is what I would like to talk about.

In a class 6, the highest level, the signature radius for all ships is reduced by 50% and small weapon multiplier is +100%. So if a small weapon is shooting another frigate, in theory it would be doing the same damage as if there was no environment effect at all because half the damage is negated due to the smaller signature radius. But, the signature radius reduction on larger ships, does not put it too small to negate any of the small weapons new damage output. So things like cruisers and larger are receiving twice the damage from frigates and because the frigate has half the signature radius, medium and larger weapons do substantial less damage than before.

So let us say there was a T3 frigate that is capable of creating such a wormhole effect to every ship that is on grid with it. Such a module, only able to be used on a T3 frigate, would of course require a fuel source such as strontium from its fuel bay in order to avoid some afk shenanigans at a POS, even though it would only affect those ships on the same grid as the POS. So on a large battlefield, this would boost frigates and destroyers vs. the larger ships and decrease the damage coming from them at the same time.

As far as specific details of the ship, I will leave for a later post when I have time to refine it more. The main goal is not to become to uber solo pwn frigate mobile against another frigate, because that other frigate will have the same bonuses you receive if you turn them on, so it won't matter, but to increase the survivability of all frigates and destroyers (hopefully a re-balanced t2 destroyer field) on the battlefield of the much larger ships.

Again, the goal is not to become a better interceptor, prober, AF or any role that is currently fielded by frigates, but more of an amplifier of their damage against larger targets and increase their survivability against those larger targets. So in a 1 vs. 1; T3 frigate vs. T2/faction frigate, most likely the T2/faction will kill the T3.

[Mike deVoid]

I remember bringing up a similar thread on SHC about a year ago and the main comments were that there were already many many poor t1 frigate hulls, and there wasn't much 'space' in frigate roles to operate that weren't already covered by existing t2 frigates.

Saying that, keep the skill lose since time to retrain will be very short even for a level 5 frig subsystem. Would be interesting for ppl to make their own combinations of bonuses like for T3 cruisers.

[Marlona Sky]

I remember bringing up a similar thread on SHC about a year ago and the main comments were that there were already many many poor t1 frigate hulls, and there wasn't much 'space' in frigate roles to operate that weren't already covered by existing t2 frigates.

So if there was some ship sub system targeting in place on capital ships that only frigates could get to, then maybe some new roles could emerge for those frigates with no place currently on the battlefield?

/pinky on lip


Saying that, keep the skill lose since time to retrain will be very short even for a level 5 frig subsystem. Would be interesting for ppl to make their own combinations of bonuses like for T3 cruisers.

So if they could only take say two specialized roles with them. And say they wanted tackle and damage to be the one. Then till they get close after tackling someone they were 3/4 interceptor and 1/4 af dealing damage. Then hit the 'transform' button, and change to 3/4 af damage and 1/4 interceptor tackle.

I was also thinking the T3 frigates would have a fuel bay and to transform it would use one unit of strontium. Not sure the full size of the fuel bay, but that can be left up to balancing. How many times can I transform before I need to refuel with strontium? Should the fuel bay be able to be filled up outside of a POS or docked at a station?

[Pattern]

SP loss on a frig?
LOLnothanks*

*unless it reignited the nano age and I could fly 10kms once again

[Marlona Sky]

SP loss on a frig?
LOLnothanks*

*unless it reignited the nano age and I could fly 10kms once again

Yeah, I really don't think there should be, initially. I really don't want to see them flown by the ~elite fags~ only crowd.

Any thoughts on how much they should cost hull and the two to three subs they would go out with? The sub systems and hull would of course be different ones only allowed to be fitted on T3 frigates and cost substantially less than their T3 bigger brother, the cruiser. 75 million? Lower?

Another thing to consider is the modules fit. Maybe it can fit as many modules as a cruiser, but it does not have access to all of them at the same time? Example being, I keep using it the AF/ceptor combo so bear with me, that while in interceptor mode, it has access to the mwd but not the afterburner. When it changes to AF mode, then it can use the afterburner but not the afterburner. Interceptor mode it can't activate any local repairers, but can in AF mode. Things like that.

Thoughts?

[Wrack]

As long as I can get a proper combat frigate with a covops cloak out of this deal, I'm satisfied.

[definatelynotKKassandra]

As long as I can get a proper combat frigate with a covops cloak out of this deal, I'm satisfied.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Pattern]

Thats the problem with t3 frigs. There either going to have silly downsides like 100mill isk costs +sp loss on death, demanding OP shit for anyone to even consider flying them, or their going to be pretty run of the mill "do exactly what we can already do with shades of better or worse"...

A minefield balancing them and personally I wouldn't touch them unless you were opening up some new t3 only space.

[whispous]

T3 frigs would cost the same as a HAC, and people don't mind buying several of them a month sometimes. These would be the new dramiels - the best and ony frigs worth flying in the game. So I say no.

[Tsubutai]

T3 frigs would cost the same as a HAC, and people don't mind buying several of them a month sometimes. These would be the new dramiels - the best and ony frigs worth flying in the game. So I say no.
This. I love frigates, but if CCP were to follow the pattern that was established with T3 cruisers, you'd be looking at frigates with cruiser-sized tanks and destroyer/interdictor DPS, i.e. they'd be retard-strength OP. More generally, I just don't see a distinct or unique role they could fulfil (which is true of most proposed shiptypes, tbh).

[Marlona Sky]

T3 frigs would cost the same as a HAC, and people don't mind buying several of them a month sometimes. These would be the new dramiels - the best and ony frigs worth flying in the game. So I say no.
This. I love frigates, but if CCP were to follow the pattern that was established with T3 cruisers, you'd be looking at frigates with cruiser-sized tanks and destroyer/interdictor DPS, i.e. they'd be retard-strength OP. More generally, I just don't see a distinct or unique role they could fulfil (which is true of most proposed shiptypes, tbh).

I would agree with you more, but seems like most people rate fucking hard at a new role being born. Too many old men scared of change and the unknown playing this game.

[Pattern]

AOE Hull remote repping frigs are a go?

[Shaikar]

I can't see any value in adding yet more ships to EVE when there are so many existing ones that have no real function any more - especially not to the already overcrowded frigate field.
If you can think of good new roles then lets get them in game by fixing up currently useless ships to fill them. Surely new ships should come only when the existing ships are all functional and useful?

/e

An example being a T3 frigate that moves and acts similar to an interceptor. A majority of the resources are devoted to propulsion and tackling. It has the firepower and tank of a normal frigate. Then when it tackles a target and gets close enough, it has the option to transform into something similar to an assault frigate. (not the shitty version of what we have now that gets raped hard because of shit agility and large signature radius, no 4th bonus, etc, etc /rage off). In this mode its fire power increases a lot along with its tank. Of course its propulsion system goes down along with it's tackle range. Perhaps the signature radius goes up some to due to it no longer having a low profile. Similar to a cobra snake when it goes into attack mode and the fangs come out and it gets that large hood on it's back to look bigger.

But that is just me thinking. What are you ideas on what it should and should not be?
I know you were just spitballing but this is exactly the sort of thinking that needs to be avoided. A t3 frigate that can function as an interceptor but also change into a decent, buffed AF equivalent on the fly is one that has rendered the existing interceptor and AF lines completely obsolete - the only balancing factor left is cost and we know how well that works.

[RoemySchneider]

declare current T3s to be BCs, increase sigs

do over T3 cruisers - with fewer module slots, ofc

then we can talk about frigs -.-

[Marlona Sky]

AOE Hull remote repping frigs are a go?

I actually have an idea about something like this, but I think I will just leave it in my head. Too radical and different for the eve players.


I can't see any value in adding yet more ships to EVE when there are so many existing ones that have no real function any more - especially not to the already overcrowded frigate field.
If you can think of good new roles then lets get them in game by fixing up currently useless ships to fill them. Surely new ships should come only when the existing ships are all functional and useful?

Current useless frigates?

AF's will get a fourth bonus which will most likely be an afterburner bonus to speed. If they are smart then they will lower their signature radius a bit too so they are not insta-popped by HAC's or something. If your talking about the 'so many' T1 frigates that have no role then there really is only four total. That's right, a whole FOUR. Those four being the ones with a mining bonus on them. The Burst, Tormentor, Bantam and Navitas. For obvious reasons they see no PvP combat. Also in reality, they see very little mining combat due to the fact that shortly after being in one, a player hops into a mining barge if they want to keep mining.

I made a suggestion a while back on a T2 version of these that acted like a small logistics ship and anti-capital ship platform. Basically it had a power core that energized the remote repair (it could only use one) and when it wanted to use it's anti-capital gun, it would drop a very large sentry platform that contained the power source for it's remote repairer. With the super sentry deployed, it could not do remote repairs at all. Also it would become much faster to stay alive and would receive the same EW penalty triage carriers receive while in triage, so it does not become some super tackler. The idea did not take well because it was new and some said it felt like what a T3 frigate should be.

Again, back to the frigates with no use on the battlefield. What role is not being filled, frigate wise, that you see needs to? Also keep in mind if your talking about T1 frigates, not many people use them because T2 exists and it not terribly expensive. So why would you fly the Atron when the Taranis/Ares exists? The ONLY T1 ship that sees the most use is of course the Rifter. It performs the best for PvP as far as T1 frigates goes, but that is it. Nothing super special about it that a few million more ISK can't replace with something much better.


I know you were just spitballing but this is exactly the sort of thinking that needs to be avoided. A t3 frigate that can function as an interceptor but also change into a decent, buffed AF equivalent on the fly is one that has rendered the existing interceptor and AF lines completely obsolete - the only balancing factor left is cost and we know how well that works.

I never said that while in interceptor mode it would be as fast, agile or have the tackling potential as a normal interceptor. Same thing goes for while in AF mode. So unless there is some brand spanking new concept introduced like capital ship subsystem targeting, direct to hull damage or something like that, there is no role left unfilled by an already existing ship.

[Shiroi Okami]

I don't think they'd be HAC priced. going off the way t3 cruisers went (Taking into account the fact that the market already has plenty of t3 materials now on it, unlike when t3s first appeared), they will probably start off ~100m and then slowly drop to ~40mil for the hull I imagine. CCP would have to be veeeery careful to not make them OP tho. I would definitely not mind flying an enyo with 3 mids, 5 lows, 3 drones, and daredevil speed and 500 dps though :3

[Marlona Sky]

I actually have an idea for the end result that would boost frigate fights in an environment full of larger ships. Will need a few to flesh it out some.

[Sponk]

I actually have an idea for the end result that would boost frigate fights in an environment full of larger ships. Will need a few to flesh it out some.
TBH that's where t3 frigates should shine - having off-the-wall abilities like the interdiction nullifier is a key differentiator of t3 ships (aside from generally being balanced only by cost)

[Sponk]

off-the-wall abilities like the interdiction nullifier is a key differentiator of t3 ships
speaking of... (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=28438#post28438)

[prometheus]

They shouldn't exist, and anyone who thinks the need to exist needs to get their heads checks.

[Marlona Sky]

Wolf-Rayet wormholes have a very unique environmental effect. They nerf shields, boost armor, lower ship signature radius and boost small weapon damage output. The signature radius and small weapon damage output is what I would like to talk about.

In a class 6, the highest level, the signature radius for all ships is reduced by 50% and small weapon multiplier is +100%. So if a small weapon is shooting another frigate, in theory it would be doing the same damage as if there was no environment effect at all because half the damage is negated due to the smaller signature radius. But, the signature radius reduction on larger ships, does not put it too small to negate any of the small weapons new damage output. So things like cruisers and larger are receiving twice the damage from frigates and because the frigate has half the signature radius, medium and larger weapons do substantial less damage than before.

So let us say there was a T3 frigate that is capable of creating such a wormhole effect to every ship that is on grid with it. Such a module, only able to be used on a T3 frigate, would of course require a fuel source such as strontium from its fuel bay in order to avoid some afk shenanigans at a POS, even though it would only affect those ships on the same grid as the POS. So on a large battlefield, this would boost frigates and destroyers vs. the larger ships and decrease the damage coming from them at the same time.

As far as specific details of the ship, I will leave for a later post when I have time to refine it more. The main goal is not to become to uber solo pwn frigate mobile against another frigate, because that other frigate will have the same bonuses you receive if you turn them on, so it won't matter, but to increase the survivability of all frigates and destroyers (hopefully a re-balanced t2 destroyer field) on the battlefield of the much larger ships.

Again, the goal is not to become a better interceptor, prober, AF or any role that is currently fielded by frigates, but more of an amplifier of their damage against larger targets and increase their survivability against those larger targets. So in a 1 vs. 1; T3 frigate vs. T2/faction frigate, most likely the T2/faction will kill the T3.

[Sponk]

Uh, sig radius doesn't reduce damage - it only affects tracking.

[Marlona Sky]

Uh, sig radius doesn't reduce damage - it only affects tracking.

Right, but if it becomes incredibly harder to track something, then that is less damage incoming.

[Smuggo]

I really don't see much purpose for them. Frig combat and frig fights are generally so close to the wire that if you add in a T3 frig that can tank more, do more damage and maybe use ewar as well then you make the whole thing even more unbalanced than it already is.

Like, if you had an ewar sub for them as the current T3s have then you make EAFs even more useless.

I would love to see a frigate overhaul expansion, but it should be able improving the existing array of unloved T1 hulls rather than making a T3 frig that there just isn't a need for.

The only thing I would maybe like to see as far as new ship classes go is some sort of frigate command ship, which can give command bonuses out to frigates only, and maybe a new set of modules to provide boosts that really make sense for that class of ship.

[Marlona Sky]

I really don't see much purpose for them. Frig combat and frig fights are generally so close to the wire that if you add in a T2 frig that can tank more, do more damage and maybe use ewar as well then you make the whole thing even more unbalanced than it already is.

Like, if you had an ewar sub for them as the current T3s have then you make EAFs even more useless.

I would love to see a frigate overhaul expansion, but it should be able improving the existing array of unloved T1 hulls rather than making a T3 frig that there just isn't a need for.

The only thing I would maybe like to see as far as new ship classes go is some sort of frigate command ship, which can give command bonuses out to frigates only, and maybe a new set of modules to provide boosts that really make sense for that class of ship.

Did you read my post at the top of this page???

[Smuggo]

Did you read my post at the top of this page???

nope :)

[whispous]

t3 frigs would raise the frigate pvp bar, and ruin all frig pvp in eve.

[Sponk]

Would lovd to see adefender missile sub system frigate

[Ashigari]

how about some fleet support roles?
Things like anti-drone work, defender missiles, black op support etc. they could for example gain more boni when on grid with a carrier, link the frig and carrier by giving up a drone (or fit a t3-frig-link instead of that drone control unit). When the frigs are linked to a carrier they could share targets for example and then apply some remote effects on the primaries (resists/eccm/smart bomb drones/defender missiles). Make it really cool and the frigs get an advanced tactical overlay with location enemy drones, projected missile paths maybe?

instead of carrier use super carrier or black ops for different tasks and different boni/overlays

something completly different that doesn't really conflict with the current frig roles...

[Alain Colcer]

so are we looking to have 4 types of overpowered dramiel equivalents? right?

I don't think we need to add more t3 ship types, just refine current cruisers and add more subsystems.

[Nartek]

First thing that needs to be done when attempting to introduce new shit to Eve, is to define new shit.

Designing a ship that does some, or all of what current ships do is easy, and pointless.

Setup new parameters of gameplay that change the fabric of combat on different scales.

Then fit your new ships in there.

What if there was a high slot module that only fit on specialized ships, that worked similarly to ewar (chance based) but took over a fighter or bomber, and disabled it until you assigned it to a vessel that had the bandwidth to accomodate it? (And you couldn't attempt to take over any more while you still had one "attached" to you?)

Or a targeted high slot module that removed movement modifiers (webs, scrams) from the number of ships? Thinking Gallente here. High Cap Use so the ship has shorter time the more friends they boost...

Or a system that allows a high slot module (new) to act as an independent, limited targeting annex for targeted/affected ships within range? That way if the ship gets jammed, they can still lock onto say, two targets, but only at frigate ranges?

Not sure if those will work, or if they're terribly unbalanced, but the reason people are against new ships is because current ships fill all the roles. To make ships appealing; you have to make new, previously undefined roles.

[Durzel]

They shouldn't exist, and anyone who thinks the need to exist needs to get their heads checks.This.

They would either be more lolOP than the Dramiel currently is, or they wouldn't and they'd be another load of ships that noone really bothers to fly. Especially if SP loss factored into the equation.

Anyone who thinks T3 frigates are needed in the game when there's numerous existing hulls that need attention are either a bit simple or have ADHD, or both.

[Marlona Sky]

t3 frigs would raise the frigate pvp bar, and ruin all frig pvp in eve.

:facepalm:

If your talking about a group of 20 T3 frigates killing a group of T2/faction frigates, it wont happen. Like I stated, the buff would apply to every small weapon turret/launcher on grid. Please give an example of how it would ruin all frigate PvP in eve


Anyone who thinks T3 frigates are needed in the game when there's numerous existing hulls that need attention are either a bit simple or have ADHD, or both.

Is it too much to ask for both? Also unless some brand new role is introduced or a ship(s) that already fill a role are nerfed, what you want is for these ships that 'need attention' to fill a similar role that another ship can do better. I already mentioned earlier there is only 4 t1 frigates that no one uses, one for each race. I also mentioned that unless it is a faction frigate, no one flies t1 unless it is the throw away Rifter. People will always spend a few million and go for a T2 version to do the job better.

[Yankunytjatjara]

I only have 1 request from t3 frigs. They have to not fail the 'rifter test': they have to be possible to kill with a suitably fit, well flown rifter. The only frigate that fails the test currently is the dramiel.


*unless it reignited the nano age and I could fly 10kms once again
Beause the game needs more dramiels right? These words make me fear the content of your walls of text of gallente rebalancing that I'll never be arsed to read.

[Pattern]

Beause the game needs more dramiels right? These words make me fear the content of your walls of text of gallente rebalancing that I'll never be arsed to read.
Did I just successfully troll?

[whispous]

Beause the game needs more dramiels right? These words make me fear the content of your walls of text of gallente rebalancing that I'll never be arsed to read.
Did I just successfully troll?

the classic "claim it was a troll"

[Pattern]

Beause the game needs more dramiels right? These words make me fear the content of your walls of text of gallente rebalancing that I'll never be arsed to read.
Did I just successfully troll?

the classic "claim it was a troll"
Did I just troll again?

[Wrack]

Beause the game needs more dramiels right? These words make me fear the content of your walls of text of gallente rebalancing that I'll never be arsed to read.
Did I just successfully troll?

the classic "claim it was a troll"
Did I just troll again?

:derper:

Also, doesn't the jag fail the rifter test? It's a rifter with an extra mid, T2 resists, more base HP, twice the damage bonus, and lacking only the tracking bonus? I'd love to see a webbed rifter get under the guns of a jaguar.

[Shin_getter]

While there is better places to add new ships, assuming I'm to put in a line of T3, I can imagine a line of super specialized uses.

Offensive Mods:
Smart Bomb bonuses, Neut/Nos range bonus
Bomb launcher mod, with bonus to void/lockbreakers/bomb travel speed
Bonus to medium weapon fitting/cap use
Cov ops
Bonus to Ewar drones

Defence Mods:
Boost one resist type but bad resist for others mod (for things like flying around firewalls, laughing at warriors or bouncing alpha with default ammo)
Lower signature
Immunity to specific types of ewar (not including tackle)
Allow bubble launcher (note this gimps tank, being a defence mod, so if you wanna use 100m glass frig to tackle....go for it)

Electronic Mods:
Faction Ewar
Remote Sebo/Tracking link/ECCM
Reduce decloak lock penality
Sensor strength (death to falcons~)

Engineering mods:
Increase effect of Heat
Bonus to cap boosters
Immunity to cap warfare
Increase effect of rigs

Prop mods:
Bonus to nano/istab/od mods (bad base stats, reduce stacking penalty for specialized fits with very good mobility but no low slots?)
Interdictor nullifier
Bonus to cruiser prop mods fitting/cap use
Add free stabs with different penalty then lock time
Cargo space

[prometheus]

The whole idea (while a cool concept) would only work if they MASSIVELY nerfed (or removed) the many many specialized frigates that already exist.
There is no whole in frigate pvp that needs to be filled.

Base T1 frigates include combat, probing, industrial, and ewar models.
Then you have EAS, Interceptors, AFs, Cov Ops, & Bombers.
There is literally, no field that hasn't been covered that ISN'T overpowered (ie: RR)

[Marlona Sky]

I only have 1 request from t3 frigs. They have to not fail the 'rifter test': they have to be possible to kill with a suitably fit, well flown rifter.

I have a few things to say about this statement of yours.

First of all I think it is pretty fucking fail that the Rifter is the T1 frigate is the indisputable king of T1 frigates. Every race should have its own 'Rifter' that when fit properly and piloted well, can be competitive against T2 and faction frigates. Perhaps the Punished, Merlin and Incursus need a slight boost to be more in line with the Rifter or dare I say a nerf to the Rifter?

Secondly, of course any ship piloted horribly can be killed by anything that can fit a gun. Emo TJ anyone? lol

Thirdly, like I said before, if your looking for the next generation in OP Dramiels, this is not it. In fact, if the fittings, skills and such are the same; the T3 frigate should lose to any T2/faction frigate equivalent. Also it should not replace any other frigate that is already filling a role.


The whole idea (while a cool concept) would only work if they MASSIVELY nerfed (or removed) the many many specialized frigates that already exist.
There is no whole in frigate pvp that needs to be filled.

Base T1 frigates include combat, probing, industrial, and ewar models.
Then you have EAS, Interceptors, AFs, Cov Ops, & Bombers.
There is literally, no field that hasn't been covered that ISN'T overpowered (ie: RR)

I understand what you are saying. It is your opinion, as well as some followers that a T3 frigate should not exist if there is not a brand new role for it to fill? Even if my suggestion was for it to become an amplifier for current frigates on a battlefield surrounded by bigger ships?

[Nartek]

The whole idea (while a cool concept) would only work if they MASSIVELY nerfed (or removed) the many many specialized frigates that already exist.
There is no whole in frigate pvp that needs to be filled.

Base T1 frigates include combat, probing, industrial, and ewar models.
Then you have EAS, Interceptors, AFs, Cov Ops, & Bombers.
There is literally, no field that hasn't been covered that ISN'T overpowered (ie: RR)

Think outside the box. Don't try to fit ships into currently defined roles; create new roles and fit ships into those, bringing new ones into the mix as needed.

I don't think anyone wants a "same as T2 XXX, but better" hull. Far better to be some new element to the game that can change the dynamic. Eve isn't stale because it's not pushing out new ships to PvP in; it's stale because it's not pushing out new methods of interaction in PvP. Things like a defender missile specialist (aka a screener), my propulsion inhibiting nullifier, and other such fringe ideas are what the game really, really needs.

TLDR: Create new fields.

[Shin_getter]

In a class 6, the highest level, the signature radius for all ships is reduced by 50% and small weapon multiplier is +100%. So if a small weapon is shooting another frigate, in theory it would be doing the same damage as if there was no environment effect at all because half the damage is negated due to the smaller signature radius. But, the signature radius reduction on larger ships, does not put it too small to negate any of the small weapons new damage output. So things like cruisers and larger are receiving twice the damage from frigates and because the frigate has half the signature radius, medium and larger weapons do substantial less damage than before.

This is too much "power" in a frigate as there is immense amounts of side effects which can screw EVERY other ship to ship interaction outside of frigate vs larger ships, for example:
Bombers vs Battleships
HAC vs Battleships
Effects on scram range combat dps (lol blaster tracking x 100)
New way to grief mission bears (permatanking elite cruisers vs golems lol)
Totally mess up the dps output of some complexes and incursions
General dps reduction for all non-frigate ships while one praise the RR lord

and other totally messed up way players would exploit the shit out of everything.

If you placed this kind ability on a new super cap it'd at least take a few month before it shows up on the field in strength and there is some time for player feedback to allow some sort of response, and some way for counter strategies to be built.

If you placed this on a frigate, even one with as convoluted construction process as T3, its gonna take two weeks and every serious group will have their own and start screwing this all over the place, and this'd end up in a :psyccp: moment when some unforeseen use utterly breaks some part of the game.

And just image this: your fleet is fighting some other fleet and then some frigate warps in/decloak/log and the entire rule of the battlefield changes in a instant! I can only imagines the cries of the server if this happens frequently, and just plain how annoying and unthematic it is when you are on the screwed overed part of the fleet. (falcon is NOTHING compared to this force multiplier)

If you want to do something like that, have a "remote signature reduction" mod that works the standard way, and it might not be so messy.

[Marlona Sky]

This is too much "power" in a frigate as there is immense amounts of side effects which can screw EVERY other ship to ship interaction outside of frigate vs larger ships, for example:
Bombers vs Battleships
HAC vs Battleships
Effects on scram range combat dps (lol blaster tracking x 100)
New way to grief mission bears (permatanking elite cruisers vs golems lol)
Totally mess up the dps output of some complexes and incursions
General dps reduction for all non-frigate ships while one praise the RR lord

and other totally messed up way players would exploit the shit out of everything.

If you placed this kind ability on a new super cap it'd at least take a few month before it shows up on the field in strength and there is some time for player feedback to allow some sort of response, and some way for counter strategies to be built.

If you placed this on a frigate, even one with as convoluted construction process as T3, its gonna take two weeks and every serious group will have their own and start screwing this all over the place, and this'd end up in a :psyccp: moment when some unforeseen use utterly breaks some part of the game.

And just image this: your fleet is fighting some other fleet and then some frigate warps in/decloak/log and the entire rule of the battlefield changes in a instant! I can only imagines the cries of the server if this happens frequently, and just plain how annoying and unthematic it is when you are on the screwed overed part of the fleet. (falcon is NOTHING compared to this force multiplier)

If you want to do something like that, have a "remote signature reduction" mod that works the standard way, and it might not be so messy.

TL;DR You can't buff frigates because that means a nerf to everything non-frigate?

As far as exploits goes; I will leave that up to the proper authorities on dealing with such things. Again though back to your thoughts on T3 frigates. Are you implying that they should in no way be a nerf on other ships or a debuff?

[Shin_getter]

TL;DR You can't buff frigates because that means a nerf to everything non-frigate?

As far as exploits goes; I will leave that up to the proper authorities on dealing with such things. Again though back to your thoughts on T3 frigates. Are you implying that they should in no way be a nerf on other ships or a debuff?
You can't change the sig radius of any ship everywhere (its a frig, people can always bring one if there is a need for it) so you can add a single ship into the game.

I'm saying high strength grid wide passive effect is just far to extreme for such an accessible platform and it doesn't make a lot of sense to throw this ability in a "T3 = modular" "frigate = cheap" world. This is not another new ship we are talking about, this is changing the balance and tactics across a huge chunk of Eve when there is no outcry for it. There is a complete lack of precedence in everything you are trying to do here in and a change of this scale needs very good reasons supporting it for to even be seriously considered. Any of the above might a way for unforeseen consequences to come in and make the game less enjoyable and thus fail.

If we are just trying to add a ship and some new role into it, it is good to be conservative and not break what already works.

[prometheus]

Think outside the box. Don't try to fit ships into currently defined roles; create new roles and fit ships into those, bringing new ones into the mix as needed.
In regard to me? hahaha

Unless CCP finds a way to change the way links work, giving frigates their own specialized linking system is not a good idea.
My recommendation would be to wait until after the winter expansion to see what CCP comes up with for the AFs.

It's a well known fact that the only role that isn't effectively filled by frigates, is the heavy hitter. That's it, and that's all they need.

No more speed/tank/sig/ewar boosters (CS/T3 links)
No more more remote effects (rep/tracking/ecm/scan res)

Hell, ABing Logistics ships are already the same size as Destroyers.
There is not need for even smaller and faster *logistics* ships.

The reason why wormhole effects aren't broken is because they are highly localized and only available in those systems. NOT everywhere.
I really don't want to be see every frigate doing 400dps while super small, super agile, and heavily tanked.

And no, the game does NOT need more fringe toys.
We don't need ships that are harder to catch, and make things easier to defend.

Call me narrow minded if you like, but I believe it's far more narrow minded to think that we actually need more when what we already have just needs to be tweaked.

[Marlona Sky]

So Prom, you are completely fine with the fact that in large fleet fights, non-bomber frigates count for less than 5% or less of the ships fielded?

[prometheus]

Has nothing to do with frigates being good or bad.
If AFs become the ships they were INTENDED to be, then I can see things changing.

Like I said, we already have all the tools required. They just need to be sharpened.

[Marlona Sky]

Has nothing to do with frigates being good or bad.
If AFs become the ships they were INTENDED to be, then I can see things changing.

Like I said, we already have all the tools required. They just need to be sharpened.

With the predicted AF 4th bonus (AB speed per level) how much do you honestly expect frigate presence to go up on the medium to large scale battles? Also why would a FC call for frigates over HACs, BSs, BC's, capitals, etc? What are you predicting to happen that will change this?

[prometheus]

Being CSM, I'm not allowed to predict anything because someone might call it a leak if I'm right :S

If CCP actually does a AB speed per level, AFs will be retardedly overpowered as they were on sisi.
I am 100% against that bonus, as that would not fix the ships.

[Sponk]

If CCP actually does a AB speed per level, AFs will be retardedly overpowered as they were on sisi.
I am 100% against that bonus, as that would not fix the ships.
What sort of things do they need, then?

-cap use on ABs or something minor?

[prometheus]

My previous suggestions involved a 5th role bonus (Bombers have 7) which was a sig reduction penalty similar to Interceptors (but not nearly as extensive), in addition to ship specific tweaks and 4th bonus.
The 5th bonus would apply to EAS as well.

[Sponk]

hmm, you know, -cap use for local reps wouldn't go astray...

[prometheus]

hmm, you know, -cap use for local reps wouldn't go astray...
Would be a pretty dumb addition for a couple reasons;
- Frigate capacitors are tiny, and pretty much negated by 1 or 2 med neut cycles and/or many pilots already fit neuts on their ships negating the bonus from being used anyways
- On the other hand you're left with really heavily tanked frigates that can't be broken without a neut
- It becomes an ability that has no skill in harnessing like the aforementioned AB bonus

[Sponk]

TY

[Nartek]

Think outside the box. Don't try to fit ships into currently defined roles; create new roles and fit ships into those, bringing new ones into the mix as needed.
In regard to me? hahaha

Unless CCP finds a way to change the way links work, giving frigates their own specialized linking system is not a good idea.
My recommendation would be to wait until after the winter expansion to see what CCP comes up with for the AFs.

It's a well known fact that the only role that isn't effectively filled by frigates, is the heavy hitter. That's it, and that's all they need.

You are right, roles are filled. I'm promoting that CCP step back to the core of PvP interaction, and create new methods in which ships can interact. I.E. Change the PvP landscape through the addition of new elements of gameplay.

Promoting: New weapon systems, new support effects, new ways with which one can boost, or hamper a ship.

Not Promoting: Sticking old shit on new ships and calling it fresh.

[prometheus]

That's something else entirely, and I can't see CCP doing that in one shot let alone over a long period of time, without losing a large portion of the player base.
Changes would be need to be made gradually to the current ships, and then a *T3* ship would need to be introduced.

[Marlona Sky]

Promoting: New weapon systems, new support effects, new ways with which one can boost, or hamper a ship.

You mean like subsystem targeting on capital ships like I suggested? Was going to outline my idea on how to do that, but in all honesty, there is too many bitter old nannies in here who clench their chest at anything different than they are used to.

[prometheus]

CCP have hinted at subsystem targeting several times, but have also said somewhere that it wouldn't fit into the game the way it works currently

[Nartek]

Promoting: New weapon systems, new support effects, new ways with which one can boost, or hamper a ship.

You mean like subsystem targeting on capital ships like a suggested? Was going to outline my idea on how to do that, but in all honesty. There is too many bitter old nannies in here who clench their chest at anything different than they are used to.

I have been playing (and unsubbed, and playing again, and unsubbed) eve long enough to be one of those bitter old nannies. The thing that bothers me is that every time a new ship hull is entered into the game, or existing methods of gameplay are tweaked, it is within the span of one or two weeks before the optimal setup for the new ship, and the optimal layout of a fleet is established. This is because regardless of how many ship hulls you put into the game, the methods by which you conduct your business is unchanged. If CCP want to keep Eve fresh, they need to establish that it is not just the ship hulls, or replacement modules that require continuous expansion. I think it is far more important to expand the concepts of what can be brought to the table.

I like the idea of targeting subsystems, and quite a few other "fresh" ideas. Some of these ideas would need to be countered with something "New", and some could exist independently of a new counter.

TLDR: I think that's the way forward for CCP.

[whispous]

Command ships need a cap warfare immunity before T3 frigs get one.

[Shiroi Okami]

Command ships need a cap warfare immunity before T3 frigs get one.

Fuck no, neither need it. Cap warfare immune frigs (Especially if it was like a T3 AFs) would be unkillable by larger ships, and cap warfare immune sleipnirs and claymores would become nigh unstoppable unless you brought a blob big enough to break it's local tank.

[Tsubutai]

New T3s should be just like existing ships but with immunity to ECM. :3

[prometheus]

Command ships need at least 10 more SS each
Fixed that for you :D

[Mike deVoid]

SS = safespot?

[whispous]

Command ships need a cap warfare immunity before T3 frigs get one.

Fuck no, neither need it. Cap warfare immune frigs (Especially if it was like a T3 AFs) would be unkillable by larger ships, and cap warfare immune sleipnirs and claymores would become nigh unstoppable unless you brought a blob big enough to break it's local tank.

Get out. A neut immunity only realistically affects active tank ability, and command ships should be brawling ships for fighting say two or three battlecruisers.

[whispous]

SS = safespot?

sensor strength hurr

but they way command ships are, yes they also need 10 safespots to live

[Pattern]

Command ships need a cap warfare immunity before T3 frigs get one.

Fuck no, neither need it. Cap warfare immune frigs (Especially if it was like a T3 AFs) would be unkillable by larger ships, and cap warfare immune sleipnirs and claymores would become nigh unstoppable unless you brought a blob big enough to break it's local tank.

Get out. A neut immunity only realistically affects active tank ability, and command ships should be brawling ships for fighting say two or three battlecruisers.
With an active tank of what, 700dps ish? :lol:

[Shiroi Okami]

Command ships need a cap warfare immunity before T3 frigs get one.

Fuck no, neither need it. Cap warfare immune frigs (Especially if it was like a T3 AFs) would be unkillable by larger ships, and cap warfare immune sleipnirs and claymores would become nigh unstoppable unless you brought a blob big enough to break it's local tank.

Get out. A neut immunity only realistically affects active tank ability, and command ships should be brawling ships for fighting say two or three battlecruisers.

With what, 700 DPS tank?

Claymore breaks 4k dps tanked with a dg booster, crystals and tengu, and that's with an MWD and a scram. The only thing that can stop it is neuts. I like my claymores, but making them neut immune would make them retardedly powerful. Hell even without the crystals and tengu it still tanks over 2k dps. And you want to make it immune to neuts as well? :V

[Pattern]

The only thing that can stop it is neuts.
Or a handful of Maelstroms. Or a blob.

Also, faction/mods, tanking mods and implants should get the nanonerf treatment tbh, if only to stop these retarded "look how much it can tank in eft!!" comments.

[Shiroi Okami]

The only thing that can stop it is neuts.
Or a handful of Maelstroms. Or a blob.

Also, faction/mods, tanking mods and implants should get the nanonerf treatment tbh, if only to stop these retarded "look how much it can tank in eft!!" comments.


That was exactly my point. Only a significant blob is able to kill it once it is immune to neuts. I might be alone here, but encouraging blobtards to blob harder sounds like a really bad idea to me

[whispous]

I see your points.

Maybe some kind of stacking penalty bonus to taking neuts?

[Pattern]

Was going to post about how a blob is now "uber faction active tanking ships" EHP is worth in alpha or 1 dps more than whatever that could tank but then again it's a better definition than most.

[Shiroi Okami]

I see your points.

Maybe some kind of stacking penalty bonus to taking neuts?

This would actually be a good idea. I've thought for a while that like other ewar, neuts (and ecm) should be stacking penalised, in general. That said tho whisp why do you focus on command ships? They generally have pretty good cap by default, compared to active tanking battleships or cruisers

[whispous]

Because field commands need a pvp role

(Astarte notably)

[Shiroi Okami]

Because field commands need a pvp role

(Astarte notably)

I think that comes under 'fix hybrids/gallente' more than 'do something about neuts affecting command ships'. All of the CS are fine bar the vulture, eos and astarte, which all comes down to hybrids.

[whispous]

Because field commands need a pvp role

(Astarte notably)

I think that comes under 'fix hybrids/gallente' more than 'do something about neuts affecting command ships'. All of the CS are fine bar the vulture, eos and astarte, which all comes down to hybrids.

that and the weak tanks

[CastleBravo]

Just nerf neuts down to the same cap/s as nos.