Sniping, what can be done?

[TZeer]

Sniping as a viable solution/tactic in a hostile environment is today really not an option. Every noob with a probelauncher can get a result on you in 5 sec.

If you want to take it to the next step you can fit a sabre with probes.
Sit 300km of the gate cloaked.
When there are incoming targets, simply start scanning, soon you will have it down where the scan finishes right about the time they drop out of warp.
Simply warp to spot and drop bubble.
Due to the mechanics where you are slowing down from after dropping out of warp, the sabre or anyone else, will be in warp before you have started to align out.
Average BS uses about 10-14 sec to align from standing still, depending on fits, more if they are just dropping out of warp.
Result is that sniping as a tactic is no longer good.

I`m not saying that the snipers should be untouchable, but it should take longer then 5 sec to get a warp in.

I had a discussion going in the old eve forums...

I could put up a new thread in the new forums, but currently unsubbed, and would like to have something decent to post before I activate for a few hours so I can post it.

Anyone here have ideas, proposals?

Goals:
- Scanning and getting on top of the enemy should take long enough that we get back the "cat & mouse" gameplay. Possible to do hit and run, but not possible to stay and fight without risk getting warpins on your head.

- Scanning for anom`s, plexe`s and shit should not be touched, would just make PVEèrs cry and make to much noise.

- Scanning for people in safespots might not need to be nerfed, would maybe make it to hard to scan someone if they have 25-30 sec time to react.

As you see, the time I`m aiming for is 25-30 sec, why? This was about the same time you had under the old scanning system before you knew someone would have a spot on you. This could be skillbased, so with shit skills it would take longer.

Only idea I can come up with atm is some sort of distortion from celestial objects interfering with the scan, this be gates, stations, planets, POS etc. So if your ship is within a certain distance from those objects this mechanic would kick in.

Yes? No? Something else?

[Marlona Sky]

We have Apocrapha to blame really. CCP wanted an easy and friendly scanning system to entice new players into the expansion and get in some wormholes.

Scanning should be an art form. Not some technical math equation that is right or wrong.

[The Djego]

Overall I think on grid warps should be more limited, possible by higher minimal range, since even if you have a save spot nearby it would increase the time to warp out and back to the desired amount.


As you see, the time I`m aiming for is 25-30 sec, why? This was about the same time you had under the old scanning system before you knew someone would have a spot on you. This could be skillbased, so with shit skills it would take longer.


Well in this case you could simply add a multiplier to the scan time if the target is close by(insert stuff about recalibrating sensor w/e).

if(range_to_closets_target < 150) range_to_closest_target = 150;

scantime = scantime * (1+ (3000 / (range_to_closets_target + 150)));

So you get 50s at 150km or below, 42s at 200km and 33.4s at 249km. Since it pretty much goes down to 1 at high ranges it would have next to no effect at normal scan range over 1 AU.

[Pattern]

Had an idea that went a long the lines of "probing accuracy inversely proportional to the amount of time the target has been in one location (grid)"

Example, Target just landed and you did a 5 second scan probe, you got a random >200km warp to hit. 30 seconds and you got a >50km warp to hit, 1 minute >12km result... and so on.

You'd also need to increase the "warp to" distance by a bit too..

[Shin_getter]

Can't we use the lazy solution of a custom ship and module that jams scan probes that make scans take longer?

[RoemySchneider]

i can see why some would consider having a few LR concepts at our disposal again to be a good thing, and probing may stop some of these concepts in their track. but apochribba is not to blame; i had a probe launcher on the scimitar prior to that and it was less complicated to just dump a single snoop probe and spam the [analyze] button every ~60secs [cov ops merely had a -50% bonus to this scan time]; when the results came in, they - too - gave you the positions of pmuch everything (within 5AU) at the instance of the finished analysis.
we could dump our probe on the grid(s) where combat was expected. chances were quite good actually that we'd hit the analyze button when the opponents was still in warp, only to get a result when they 'just' landed.
[and the results would remain in the list when you started the next analysis, giving you lots of 'outdated' results to work with during the next minute ^^]

apochribba only caused more people to invest some time into learning this probing bizniz with the wormholes, plexes and shit -.-

sry, but i wouldn't care too much if those probing durations get increased again. (capable) fleets can simply get more probers to increase their 'chances' of an early hit.

@djego; from a technical pov: are the results supposed to come in one-by-one, depending on distance...?
-.-? it has one cool side effect though: my fleet m8s would show up last before cluttering my results list ^^



but anyways;

why desperately try'n'snipe at >150km?
go to ~110km, pick shorter ammo and be done with it. we had a speed nerf since the MAX campaign after all; stuff takes a lot longer to fly all the way over to you.
...and no tracking nerf. your mega beam apoc will deal 400dps with 2x the 'effective tracking' as the same glass cannon using aurora at ~200km.

just 'sitting there', outranging everything - not only guns&drones but all sorts of spec'ed EW - is a boring 'tactic'. and allow me to say it's somewhat game breaking due to said EW immunity.
bringing sniping back to moderate ranges made them susceptible to (EW-range-rigged) recons, albeit only in 1x falloff (which is perfectly fine, mind you... wouldn't want dampeners to act as 100% chance jammer again).

i also remember FCs being more worried about wrecks in the vicinity than actual targets :roll:

then there's the same old problems where we'll discuss rail dps some more, shitty tempest fitting~ and arty stats and caldari might want to use cruise ravens like drake fleets and bitch about it long enough until their missile velocity gets buffed some more -.-

and with all this swooning over sniper stand-offs.... do you guys really want to revert to those dps levels in light of the ongoing moaning about logis? we went with RR fits back then and it managed to do the trick. some actually relied solely on RRbots and performed surprisingly well.



but if you reallyreallyreally want to return to the olden days, do what... burn eden (i think it was) did: get unprobe'able battleships.
CCP may have capped the probing equation, but that threshold can only be attained by cov-ops frigs with buckets of isk invested into that one profession - not by daily-pvp-"im likely to die in my own bubble and lose my imps in less than an hour" dictor pilots. and there's _maybe_ one in a thousand of such pilots and they'll not go and warp to some random result just to get uncloaked.
so that enemy is forced to work with extra probing squads in fleet in order to squad-warp and/or warp to members that have probed themselves into the blob. there's your >60sec before the enemy can be on top of you right there.



so... no.
you cannot have your untouchable concept back that can only be 'countered' by itself while being a monkey, going anywhere on grid. going here and here and here. -.-
sry if sniping takes :effort: these days and a lil more understanding of the mechanics than simply passing 170km in EFT. it's limited to a niche between ~90-140km.
but that's a good thing

[TZeer]

Overall I think on grid warps should be more limited, possible by higher minimal range, since even if you have a save spot nearby it would increase the time to warp out and back to the desired amount.

Would not do much, since most of the time will be going accelerating and decelerating. So even if you are off grid the time wouldn't change much.


Well in this case you could simply add a multiplier to the scan time if the target is close by(insert stuff about recalibrating sensor w/e).

That multiplier would have to be target versus object(gate,station etc), and not target versus scanning pilot.


Had an idea that went a long the lines of "probing accuracy inversely proportional to the amount of time the target has been in one location (grid)"

Example, Target just landed and you did a 5 second scan probe, you got a random >200km warp to hit. 30 seconds and you got a >50km warp to hit, 1 minute >12km result... and so on.

Good idea.


why desperately try'n'snipe at >150km?
go to ~110km, pick shorter ammo and be done with it. we had a speed nerf since the MAX campaign after all; stuff takes a lot longer to fly all the way over to you.
...and no tracking nerf. your mega beam apoc will deal 400dps with 2x the 'effective tracking' as the same glass cannon using aurora at ~200km.

That`s what we usually did if the situation permitted it. But the thing is that the prober/bubbler isn't sitting in the middle of the other group. He is 200km on the opposite side of the grid, or maybe 0,5 AU away. If he know what he is doing that spot where the snipers are will be probed within 5 sec. Just coming out of warp takes a few seconds, then add alignment time, and your sniper is basically just cannon-fodder.


just 'sitting there', outranging everything - not only guns&drones but all sorts of spec'ed EW - is a boring 'tactic'. and allow me to say it's somewhat game breaking due to said EW immunity.

Scorpions have no problems reaching out to that range. There are more stuff that works but I wont start a discussion about that. We have used it.


and with all this swooning over sniper stand-offs.... do you guys really want to revert to those dps levels in light of the ongoing moaning about logis? we went with RR fits back then and it managed to do the trick. some actually relied solely on RRbots and performed surprisingly well.

Logis wouldn't be much of a problem. Do it right and they will instapop.


do what... burn eden (i think it was) did: get unprobe'able battleships.
CCP may have capped the probing equation, but that threshold can only be attained by cov-ops frigs with buckets of isk invested into that one profession

I`m in Burn Eden. And that stuff doesn't work anymore. Sure they capped the equation, but you hardly need buckets of isk invested. When we tested it on the testserver you could perfectly probe down the "unprobe'able" sniper without much trouble. We also thought at first you had to have a maxed out pilot with the best implants etc. You don't. If you had the 3 skills at lvl 5, you could do it with 2 of the cheapest implants. I was pretty close do get it to work with a bloody sabre.


forced to work with extra probing squads in fleet in order to squad-warp and/or warp to members that have probed themselves into the blob. there's your >60sec before the enemy can be on top of you right there.

If someone uses >60 sec to get a spot on a sniper they are doing something wrong, especially when the scan itself takes 5 sec, and all he need to do is warp his ship to that spot, at range or whatever.


so... no.
you cannot have your untouchable concept back that can only be 'countered' by itself while being a monkey, going anywhere on grid. going here and here and here. -.-
sry if sniping takes :effort: these days and a lil more understanding of the mechanics than simply passing 170km in EFT.

Effort? Are you being funny? Or trolling? What can you accomplish with a sniper when someone get your spot in 5 sec? It takes longer to lock a target. If we had set up on the testserver, I can assure you that your sniper would be tackled before you had been able to align out. We tried this in every possible way after the change, and no matter how or what we did, the scanning/tackling gang was able to get on top of our snipers before we where able to align properly.

I have no problem having a discussion, but at least back it up with facts.

[smagd]

Would something like a delay work?

E. g. a ship becomes scannable only about 20 seconds after it drops out of warp?

This sounds easy enough to code (add a timestamp to each ship when it dropped out of warp last and check that when the results are calculated), I don't see how it would influence other mechanics too much, and it can be easily tuned (e. g. maybe you want 5 seconds for frigs, 30 seconds for super capitals).

Why is it possible to scan ships WHILE they're in warp anyhow? Why is it possible to SMARTBOMB stuff while still not yet fully done dropping out of warp?

[TZeer]

Would something like a delay work?

E. g. a ship becomes scannable only about 20 seconds after it drops out of warp?

This sounds easy enough to code (add a timestamp to each ship when it dropped out of warp last and check that when the results are calculated), I don't see how it would influence other mechanics too much, and it can be easily tuned (e. g. maybe you want 5 seconds for frigs, 30 seconds for super capitals).

Why is it possible to scan ships WHILE they're in warp anyhow? Why is it possible to SMARTBOMB stuff while still not yet fully done dropping out of warp?

That could work, but if it affects ships in general SS in the middle of nowhere, it might be to difficult to get a fix on them. But I`m not against it.

The whole scanning is borked, it doesnt matter if the ship is in warp or what not, all that matter is where that ships is when the scan cycle completes.

[joe space]

this is how i read your post: "i used to like eve because i could kill stuff and never ever die using some mechanics that removed nearly all player skill from the equation. ccp made some changes and there is now a remote possibility that player skill might actually cause my ship to die! i quit." - burn eden, lol.

the balance is fine. sniping is an inherently risk avoidant means of pvp. sniping at 150+ is particularly egregious, so you face a particularly threatening counter - rather simple enemy fleet warp ins (which can also be countered by you, the sniper, at some minor inconvenience - see your own decent dictor pilot or the game mechanics you clearly need to test more thoroughly "on sisi"). sniping at sub 150 faces more counters than sniping 150+, so the warp in counter is significantly more difficult and more easily countered.

sniping is still quite viable by any normal estimation of risk v. effectiveness.

[Marlona Sky]

Holy shit joe, your one dumb fuck.

[TZeer]

this is how i read your post: "i used to like eve because i could kill stuff and never ever die using some mechanics that removed nearly all player skill from the equation. ccp made some changes and there is now a remote possibility that player skill might actually cause my ship to die! i quit." - burn eden, lol.

the balance is fine. sniping is an inherently risk avoidant means of pvp. sniping at 150+ is particularly egregious, so you face a particularly threatening counter - rather simple enemy fleet warp ins (which can also be countered by you, the sniper, at some minor inconvenience - see your own decent dictor pilot or the game mechanics you clearly need to test more thoroughly "on sisi"). sniping at sub 150 faces more counters than sniping 150+, so the warp in counter is significantly more difficult and more easily countered.

sniping is still quite viable by any normal estimation of risk v. effectiveness.

I`m curious to know how you would "counter" a warp in on your snipers, when that dictor/heavy dictor will have you bubbled before you have even aligned out.
You can drop a bubble between yourself and the gang, but anyone with half a brain would keep their prober/tackler separated from rest of the gang. Ideally cloaked >250km in a direction with no celestials. As soon as they have you on close scan on the on-board scanner they can start scanning with probes. Or just be lazy and scan as soon as they see you drop out of warp. Get result, uncloak, warp to spot, drop bubble, or get points. No matter what, you are now bubbled.
If you manage to kill the dictor, cool , you still have 1 or 2 bubbles you need to get out of. Plus you have a warpable wreck right next to you. If there is a heavy dictor, you need to kill that before you can warp out.

So any tactic involving sniping is countered within 10 sec. There is no point fitting for long range engagement anymore. Close range setups will have more tank, better tracking, more dps. And it only takes them a minimum of effort to get on top of the snipers.

If sniping was still quite viable, we should see a lot more fleet doctrines using this. But closest thing you can come to a sniping fleet nowdays is maelstrom`s with artys and close/medium range ammo.

[joe space]

hey there marlona. thank you for your contribution, but actually since we weren't talking about killing high sec mission runners in a daredevil or a bait hauler your input wont be needed. i'll be sure and page you back here as soon as we get to the "how to whore a killboard like a pro when you are in fact not" portion of the evening. byeeeiii!


"cat & mouse" gameplay
/o\

edit: sorry tzeer, didn't mean to ignore your post i think we cross-posted.
a good dictor pilot can go a long way in countering the cloaky heavy dictor problem. still, i don't know how much this is a problem with larger gangs since sniping sub-150 is totally viable anyway. as far as smaller gangs though, the only types of gangs i see this being a big problem for are burn eden style cloaky bs. you sacrifice so much of your fitting to being (almost) unprobable that i suppose you are pretty vulnerable to anything that gets a warp in - dictor or otherwise. vOv. it's a little hard to feel bad for you. if a good dictor pilot isn't good enough to save you, then you're just asking to be too safe or fly too impractical of fits imo. also, you are wrong about what it takes to probe out what would have been an unprobable ship in the past. it is extremely rare to find a prober - especially in 0.0 - who can do it because it does need the virtues.

[TZeer]

hey there marlona. thank you for your contribution, but actually since we weren't talking about killing high sec mission runners in a daredevil or a bait hauler your input wont be needed. i'll be sure and page you back here as soon as we get to the "how to whore a killboard like a pro when you are in fact not" portion of the evening. byeeeiii!


/o\

edit: sorry tzeer, didn't mean to ignore your post i think we cross-posted.
a good dictor pilot can go a long way in countering the cloaky heavy dictor problem. still, i don't know how much this is a problem with larger gangs since sniping sub-150 is totally viable anyway. as far as smaller gangs though, the only types of gangs i see this being a big problem for are burn eden style cloaky bs. you sacrifice so much of your fitting to being (almost) unprobable that i suppose you are pretty vulnerable to anything that gets a warp in - dictor or otherwise. vOv. it's a little hard to feel bad for you. if a good dictor pilot isn't good enough to save you, then you're just asking to be too safe or fly too impractical of fits imo. also, you are wrong about what it takes to probe out what would have been an unprobable ship in the past. it is extremely rare to find a prober - especially in 0.0 - who can do it because it does need the virtues.

A good dictor pilot can do alot of things, but he can`t deploy bubble on the hostile gang, bubble between the gang and the snipers AND prevent a cloaked tackler from warping in from some random direction where you have no celestial to align to.

I don`t think we are using the same references here. It seems you are focusing on the warpins from the group you are already engaging at sub-150km, which in itself negates any warpins. I`m more concerned about the tackler/tacklers cloaked of in some random direction that will get points on those snipers no matter what they do. It`s quite simple really, if a sniping BS warps on grid, he will get tackled. There is no if`s but`s or maybe. Only thing that has to be in place are the probes. If they are deployed he will have no chance.

That we had fits that was unprobable have nothing to do with it. Any sniper setup that get caught closerange is helpless. It`s been like that since day one. Less dps and less tracking, and almost no tank.

If you think you need a full virtue set to be able to probe "unprobable" setups out, you need to go and test it out.

I had a prober, with max skill and rigs. All I needed was the two cheapest implants. That was before we tried with sisters gear. So if you invest in some sisters gear, you can either relax on the fittings or the implants...


But out of curiosity, you keep talking about this dictor pilot that will basically make the snipers work. Care to share how this dictor pilot would prevent those snipers getting tackled when he have no idea where the tacklers are coming from?? He cant see them and he cant scan them.

[joe space]

A good dictor pilot can do alot of things, but he can`t deploy bubble on the hostile gang, bubble between the gang and the snipers AND prevent a cloaked tackler from warping in from some random direction where you have no celestial to align to.

good thing he only has to do one of these things. the dictor pilot doesn't have to prevent you from getting tackled, he has to prevent the close range dps getting on you while you deal with the tacklers. if you don't think you should have to have any answer to enemy tackle (on your sniping ships or in the form of ant-tackle) other than sitting at 150km, then you are simply asking for too much.

and hey, if burn eden think ships can't be made immune to probers without virtues then yeah, okay, you are right. it can't be done. nothing to see here.

[TZeer]

good thing he only has to do one of these things. the dictor pilot doesn't have to prevent you from getting tackled, he has to prevent the close range dps getting on you while you deal with the tacklers. if you don't think you should have to have any answer to enemy tackle (on your sniping ships or in the form of ant-tackle) other than sitting at 150km, then you are simply asking for too much.

and hey, if burn eden think ships can't be made immune to probers without virtues then yeah, okay, you are right. it can't be done. nothing to see here.

I have no problem that there might be tacklers coming, and we would have to deal with them. Nothing wrong with that!!

Issue is the time it takes. Sniper wont have time to engage their intended targets before the tacklers are on top of them. An average sniping fit BS haven't even locked a target before the prober has their spot!!


if burn eden think ships can't be made immune to probers without virtues then yeah, okay, you are right.

Read what I wrote again maybe?

I said I was able to get 100% hit with my max skilled prober with the two cheapest implants for scanning, and that was without sisters gear. I never said you didnt need virtues. But thinking you need super expensive implants to be able to probe out "unprobable" setups is simply wrong.

And I`m not sure why you keep bringing in the "unprobable" stuff? I`m not asking for the ships to be unprobable, all I`m asking is that it takes longer then 5 sec to get a fix on someones position.

[joe space]

it doesn't matter if you are tackled if the enemies dps cannot get to you because you thought to bring along one decent dictor pilot. well, it does matter if you have absolutely no answer to the tackle so they can keep you there indefinitely. that is the case in one of two situations. (1) they brought overwhelming tackle and support ships that were all separate from their main fleet and cloaked up and in npc corps. in this case, your gripe is with "the blob." that is a different problem and it extends throughout all of eve pvp. sniping does allow you to engage greater numbers, but that doesn't mean that you can engage any theoretical combination of infinite ships. (2) your ship comp is completely unable to deal with any tackle whatsoever. that's just bad and you earned your fate if this is the case.

as far as "unprobables," i just tested it and you are totally right. turns out i can probe out all your unprobable links ships and mission running tengus with two core scanner probes and nail file.

[TZeer]

You are fucking ignorant if you think one single dictorpilot will stop the entire enemy gang if they have half a brain with them.

Anyway

1:


(1) they brought overwhelming tackle and support ships that were all separate from their main fleet and cloaked up and in npc corps. in this case, your gripe is with "the blob."

How many times do I have to say this, the numbers aren't the problem, nor the ships they bring. It`s the time it takes to get a 100% result on a ship on grid. I can have a hit on you and be in warp before you have even locked a target.

It takes roughly 6 seconds to lock a BS with 2 sensorboosters, 1 fitted for range. Now you can add in the time it takes to "pop out of warp" when entering grid.

Any decent pilot will have that spot and be in warp before you have even fired a shot.

2:

(2) your ship comp is completely unable to deal with any tackle whatsoever. that's just bad and you earned your fate if this is the case.

You surely haven't fought us.


Seems you have an issue with snipers. Or you just don't want sniping to be a viable tactic since yourself is a close range pvpèr.

- They are probed out before they have even locked a target
- They have less dps
- Shit tank compared to close range
- Shit tracking compared to close range

And when it comes to probing, don't you think we tried everything? Conclusion was that whatever you needed to probe out a "unprobable" setup was just to common. To many people would have it, or get it in a short notice. So basically the "unprobable" setup was useless.

If sniping is so balanced, why isn't it used more often in game? No sane FC would bring a sniping BS gang vs any gang today. It would be suicide.

[Pattern]

Easily siding with TZeer on this one. Not that it wasn't fucking obvious. Being able to probe a ship just before it exits warp is broken.

[Mfume]

If sniping is so balanced, why isn't it used more often in game? No sane FC would bring a sniping BS gang vs any gang today. It would be suicide.

Because Hellcats are FOTM and have massive fuckoff EHP+resists, so you need extremely high alpha to nullify their RR and almost every mid-slot filled with tank mods to have enough of your dudes survive the jump-in and the initial kite.

WRT to the OP: I don't think anything should be done, you can still do a pseudo-unprobable setup against people who are bad and unprepared, but when they come with a viable counter, you lose ships. You could, alternatively, not be silly and use the normal metagaming tools at everyone's disposal to extend the life of this tactic and probably get away scot-free when they finally wised up.

And virtue-probers in sov space are as rare as hen's teeth. Most alliance probers are plexing alts with maybe 3s and 4s in relevant skills and no implants, because christ knows you lose covops like pennies.

[joe space]

worst case scenario you are trying to snipe at +150km (your argument really falls to pieces for sniping sub 150km) and enemies have a probing dictor who is good with timing short range scan and will be on anything that comes on grid moments after it lands and have CR BS on top of it shortly afterward as well. you have a sniping bs gang, a dictor for protective bubbling, and a cov ops for warp ins. cov ops gets between bad guys and where your gang will come from, 100km off the bad guys. warp dictor in on the cov ops and BS 100 from cov ops. dictor will land first ofc and bubble as BS gang is landing. CR BS are now 200km away from you and unable to warp on top of you. (you still, ofc, have the problem of them not just leaving if you haven't got them tackled, but that is nothing new at all. also, if you are lucky they were all aligned to where your gang is coming from because they are pro but "oh no!" they can't warp that way can they? no they can't) you are likely bubbled yourself, but you are still able to snipe and you can fiddle with ranges so that you are bubbled at some range that is comfortable for you and your horrible risk averse friends.

if you are actually better at the game then them and they keep trying to get warp ins they should eventually be able to bait them into one of your (or their own) bubbles with you at range.

you can also use off-grid bounces (bubbled or not) to mess with their probers timing or trap them and several other methods as well.

ta da, you just used a modicum of SKILL. congratulations, you might now want to consider leaving your horrible corp. :P

that people don't use some tactic in eve doesn't mean it isn't viable. most players are only interested in easy kills and will just do whatever everyone else is doing that is getting everyone else kills. 2 years ago the drake was deemed unfit for pvp. the drake didn't change, some creative players got a ton of kills in them until the average player caught on. now the drake is deemed OP. go figure.

edit: page 2 snipah, obv i am an authority on the subject now

[Marlona Sky]

hey there marlona. thank you for your contribution, but actually since we weren't talking about killing high sec mission runners in a daredevil or a bait hauler your input wont be needed. i'll be sure and page you back here as soon as we get to the "how to whore a killboard like a pro when you are in fact not" portion of the evening. byeeeiii!

Sure thing Doc Bitter.

[TZeer]

worst case scenario you are trying to snipe at +150km (your argument really falls to pieces for sniping sub 150km)

Not really, any gang with half a brain would have scouts running ahead of the main gang. So alternative warpins are already done. No problem repositioning, or just warp to a alternate spot around the gate. Unless they are actually interested in fighting they would just warp to gate, get bubbled and jump out.


and enemies have a probing dictor who is good with timing short range scan and will be on anything that comes on grid moments after it lands and have CR BS ontop of it shortly afterward as well.

As I said earlier, you don't even have to be watching close range scan, you can scan as soon as you see the ship appearing on grid. Also, I said nothing about what kinda gang that was coming. This is your assumptions.


you have a sniping bs gang, a dictor for protective bubbling, and a cov ops for warp ins. cov ops gets between bad guys and where your gang will come from, 100km off the bad guys. warp dictor in on the cov ops and BS 100 from cov ops. dictor will land first ofc and bubble as BS gang is landing.

Horrible way of making warpins, and will get you killed eventually. But for the sake of the argument I`ll roll with this.


CR BS are now 200km away from you and unable to warp on top of you. (you still, ofc, have the problem of them not just leaving if you haven't got them tackled, but that is nothing new at all. also, if you are lucky they were all aligned to where your gang is coming from because they are pro but "oh no!" they can't warp that way can they? no they can't) you are likely bubbled yourself, but you are still able to snipe and you can fiddle with ranges so that you are bubbled at some range that is comfortable for you and your horrible risk averse friends.

You make it seem the other gang is completely unaware that there are other people in the system. Warping blindly to a gate to engage something that's not there. And when shot upon they would simply sit still in their bubble and not jump out if they had no intentions to fight...

If they where there to fight, and knew there are snipers involved. They would hardly warp to a gate just to get bubbled, unless it was to bait out the snipers.



if you are actually better at the game then them and they keep trying to get warp ins they should eventually be able to bait them into one of your (or their own) bubbles with you at range.

It`s blatantly obvious you have close to no experience when it comes to sniping and the mechanics around that type of gameplay. And if you have, it`s lacking.

Your whole counterargument is based on assumptions and theorycrafting. Your whole counter for losing the snipers in a ball of fire, is resting on a single dictor pilot who can drop 1 bubble every minute. Even if the dictor is doublebubble fitted, your not only sacrificing the fitting on the dictor, you still have 30 seconds between each bubble. In that time a decently fitted dramiel can travel 300km. A simply T2 fitted dram with overheat activated does over 9km/sec.


that people don't use some tactic in eve doesn't mean it isn't viable. most players are only interested in easy kills and will just do whatever everyone else is doing that is getting everyone else kills. 2 years ago the drake was deemed unfit for pvp. the drake didn't change, some creative players got a ton of kills in them until the average player caught on. now the drake is deemed OP. go figure.

Now you are oversimplifying things. The drake haven't changed, but it doesn't mean other stuff haven't changed and made the drake a better option.

I think the only thing we can agree on is that we don't agree...

[Marlona Sky]

2 years ago the drake was deemed unfit for pvp. the drake didn't change, some creative players got a ton of kills in them until the average player caught on. now the drake is deemed OP. go figure.

Ahh... I remember in TRI mk? we did an all Drake fleet for lulz. We went out and destroyed a ton of stuff and realized it was an amazing cheap ship in fleet fights with Scimitar support. The Drake Army! Then everyone started using it...

We did an all Raven fleet one time for lulz too and killed a titan. No where as good as the Drake army though. meh

[Samp]

I really don't unseratand what the problem is. You want 150k range? Then you pay with mobility because you need battleships, even if you are using battleships there's no law against warping around every couple of vollies, no law about setting up drag or screen bubbles with your own dictors, no law against using falcons or void bombs to break out of close range combat.

And then theres the microwarp drive. You can burn away from your pursuers and string them out. Your complaint seems to be that you can't just sit at warbable range and get away with it. No shit - if your hics/dics tackle and close range haven't pinned the enemy fleet then of cource you can't expect them not to come for you. Every sniper blob should br in motion - by the time the enemy align and warp that 150km you are 40k away and still moving fight or warp from there, a probing dictor can't stop that.

If you are inside warpable range then the enemy isn't goign to warp onto you.

Then you are using munins which can easily evade tackle, zealots which can braw or even the nearly unprobable cerb blobs which can dump 100s of HMs and warp across grid before they land.

There are dozens of ways sniping can work and a game change isn't warranted becasue you've found one where it doesn't.

It's a basic fact in eve that if your going to destroy the enemy, they have to be tackled. If they aren't tackled and you are 150 + from them just sitting there in Rohks or somehting you are not going to win.

If probing you took 20 minutes, you still wouldn't win becasue they would fly away.

[joe space]

tzeer, you aren't staying on point. now you are talking about all the other problems with sniper gangs and you aren't sticking to the problem of being easily probed out and warped to as you land on grid. that is what i was responding to. it is simple to counter if you are prepared for it. sure, there are counters to your counters. but then there are counters to those. that's kind of the game though. deal with it.

if you are asking for a fleet comp that can engage anything safely and disengage at will with relatively little skill involved (like sniping used to be), then imo you are asking to be spoiled. also, your posts in this thread are more and more reading like you suffer from a lack of belief in yourself. do you believe in yourself?

marlona, not at all what i was thinking of, but i'm glad you can relate.

edit: samp's post is better than mine :(

[TZeer]

even if you are using battleships there's no law against warping around every couple of vollies
Problem is you are bubbled before you have even aligned out.


Every sniper blob should br in motion - by the time the enemy align and warp that 150km you are 40k away and still moving fight or warp from there, a probing dictor can't stop that.

It`s not the blob at range that is the problem. It`s the tackle that are already ontop of you. 40k away mean that`s well over 40 sec after the first hit. Plenty of time to get a new scan, new position and new position for warpin. But that's not the point. Point is that first bubble on your head.


If you are inside warpable range then the enemy isn't goign to warp onto you.

Prober warps at range, friendly gang is >150km away=warpin


If they aren't tackled and you are 150 + from them just sitting there in Rohks or somehting you are not going to win.

You don't say, thank you for that tip, will bring that along...


tzeer, you aren't staying on point. now you are talking about all the other problems with sniper gangs and you aren't sticking to the problem of being easily probed out and warped to as you land on grid.

It was you who started theorycrafting how the snipers would counter the warpin, with a single dictor. I was merely pointing out obvious flaws in your theory.


it is simple to counter if you are prepared for it. sure, there are counters to your counters. but then there are counters to those. that's kind of the game though. deal with it.

No problem with counters. But there is nothing stopping the snipers from getting bubbled before they have aligned out. If there is one I would be all over it, but as it stands now, it`s all in the hands of the guy`s probing/bubbling the snipers. Nothing you can do about it.


We will never agree.

And we can probably run in circles all day going if, but, when etc.

Point is, some of us find probing out a ship on grid is way to easy.
Hit button, scan, in warp before a single target is locked, and have them bubbled before anything have had time to align.

All I ask for is another 20 sec... .Only thing I would like to see is that a sniper can pop his head out without getting bubbled down before he has even aligned. Thats it!

[Mfume]

Problem is you are bubbled before you have even aligned out.

You are taking a perfect world scenario and claiming that because it can possibly happen, it will happen, every time. On TQ, most times they will either be missing pieces or mess up the execution and you'll still be A-OK. So, I'm entirely fine with the idea that if the other side brings in a perfect setup, executed perfectly, I'm going to welp hard. That's the appeal of PvP over PvE.

[Raimo]

lol

[Marlona Sky]

Problem is you are bubbled before you have even aligned out.

You are taking a perfect world scenario and claiming that because it can possibly happen, it will happen, every time. On TQ, most times they will either be missing pieces or mess up the execution and you'll still be A-OK. So, I'm entirely fine with the idea that if the other side brings in a perfect setup, executed perfectly, I'm going to welp hard. That's the appeal of PvP over PvE.

I consider myself a sub-par prober and in fleet fights, using a damnation with no bonuses for probing, no probing implants and level 3-4 on the skills, I could easily get 100% hits and warp the entire fleet on top of them as half of the enemy fleet was still landing.

You are a fucking retard to say it takes a perfect world scenario to pull it off because that is a flat out fucking lie.

[Mfume]

I consider myself a sub-par prober and in fleet fights, using a damnation with no bonuses for probing, no probing implants and level 3-4 on the skills, I could easily get 100% hits and warp the entire fleet on top of them as half of the enemy fleet was still landing.

You are a fucking retard to say it takes a perfect world scenario to pull it off because that is a flat out fucking lie.

we were talking about unprobable setups. you should consider decaf.

[TZeer]

No we where not. You where talking about unprobable setup, that are no longer unprobable.

I was talking about the sniping mechanic, and how easy it is to get on top of them with current scan mechanic.

Considering the "no longer unprobable setup" would take you a T3 ganglink ship and ship+implants close to 2 bil per ship. And the counter would be 2 cheap implants on a lvl 5 prober, I wouldn't take the chance.

[Mfume]

No we where not. You where talking about unprobable setup, that are no longer unprobable.

excuse me for mistaking the 2 or 3 posts you mention needing level 5s and two cheap virtues


Considering the "no longer unprobable setup" would take you a T3 ganglink ship and ship+implants close to 2 bil per ship. And the counter would be 2 cheap implants on a lvl 5 prober, I wouldn't take the chance.

how much risk is there, really? ive seen sniper cerbs chill on nullsec gates with 100+ in local for over an hour before a someone even started probing, and that was a t1 frig, with t1 probes

[TZeer]

excuse me for mistaking the 2 or 3 posts you mention needing level 5s and two cheap virtues

That was answer for "you can fly unprobable ships". If you read my original post, I didn't mentioned unprobable one time.


ive seen sniper cerbs chill on nullsec gates with 100+ in local for over an hour before a someone even started probing, and that was a t1 frig, with t1 probes

Probably cause they where fucking useless and not a real threat.

Whenever we have been killing residents in a specific area it followed a certain pattern.

- We moved in, start killing a few
- They got told to stop dying to our useless tactics, and that we are cowards and cant fight.
- They start pitchforking, and assembling small gangs to take us on.
- They keep dying. They get a few embarrassing losses, and directorate/leaders start yelling at their members for being useless.
- A few times some dedicated FC would try and fight us. But since we where boring to fight, hard to get a spot on us and drop cyno, or warp blob on top of us. It sometimes ended in a "ignore them", "dont give them a fight" etc.

In certain areas people would try probing us 23/7. As soon as one of us logged in, there would be probes in the water.

I have been flying with Burn Eden for almost 5 years. Where one of our main tactic has always been to keep range as a counter for hotdrops and blobs. I think I have a fairly good idea at how much dedication people put down in getting us or avoiding us. That be in probing, setting traps etc. So don't come here and feed me bs about how probing works and what people don't bother with.

Some of the stuff I have seen

- Dedicated probing gang for trying to probe us down, and when I say gang, I don't mean 2 people.
- Emptying the system, bubble up all the gates. Tacklers and fighter support remaining.
- Littering the entire gates with cans/ corpses etc to prevent cloaked tacklers, or making it hard to get a warp in.
- Cloaking up fuckton of covert tacklers that be recons, bombers, dictors etc on the gates.
- Sniping titans as cover for gangs coming through the gate.
- Rerouting the POS jump network to bypass our area of operation.
- 50-100 man gangs to fight 4 snipers and a few tacklers.... (I dunno, but for some reason, numbers seem to be the answer for everything)

The list goes on.

Am I bitter? fuck yeah. Do I play eve atm? Fuck no. Will I play eve one day? Maybe, when there is some love for the small gangs. Every tactic in eve atm can probably be countered with more numbers right now. Notice the probably in that sentence. Means I`m not stating a fact nor being 100% sure.

[RoemySchneider]

as long as you got the sperging-against-any-hint-of-opposition covered itt, all is well

[joe space]

Am I bitter? fuck yeah. Do I play eve atm? Fuck no. Will I play eve one day? Maybe, when there is some love for the small gangs. Every tactic in eve atm can probably be countered with more numbers right now.

here's a little test you can do to tell whether you are being bad and unfun. take a look at your gang comp. now imagine a mirror of your gang - same ships, same bonuses, and same approximate pilot skill. would you engage it?

the problem with burn eden is that your "small gangs" fail this test utterly. that is because they are designed for traps and ganks. they are designed not to be countered, rather than for fun fights. and you have the nerve to complain about people not engaging you and about small gangs being dead? honestly, i think people with the mentality of the average burn eden pilot are more to blame for eve being shit than anyone else.

PODLA. small gangs every day. not even bitter.

[Mfume]

words

what im taking away from all this is that you might die, so refuse to engage at all.

[thebomby]

If I understand this correctly, the problem is more of a nullsec one due to bubbles than a general probing problem? Why not make bubbles neutable, i.e. have a cap that can be drained by heavy neuts?

[Mfume]

If I understand this correctly, the problem is more of a nullsec one due to bubbles than a general probing problem? Why not make bubbles neutable, i.e. have a cap that can be drained by heavy neuts?

dictor bubbles aren't targetable, but can be taken out fairly easily already by any AoE weapon (smartbomb or bomb). hictors are neutable, but once the bubble is up, it's going to ride out it's cycle time, even on 0 cap.

[joe space]

agreeing with the essence of what thebomby is saying anyway. dictor bubbles ought to be targetable and hic bubbles should go down as soon as cap'd out

[Mfume]

agreeing with the essence of what thebomby is saying anyway. dictor bubbles ought to be targetable and hic bubbles should go down as soon as cap'd out

offtopic: dictor bubbles being targetable would break medium and larger gangs that depend on them for tackle. things are already slanted too far in favor of being able to break contact, they don't need another GTFO button. and i say this as someone who has been (ab)using smartbombs to clear dictor bubbles off for the past 6 months.

[Marlona Sky]

I have no problem with bubbles staying up to finish the cycle if the HIC is capped out. We need more supers dying and letting supers insta-cap a HIC to gtfo should not be an option.

[TZeer]

If I die in pvp, no problem. But it should be by the skills/wits from another pilot or my own stupidity, not some lame ass gamemechanic that doesn't really leave you an option.

Range as an advantage isn't really an advantage if you are probed down and bubbled before you are even able to align. No point bringing a sniper out when you can use a closerange brawler and be on top of the sniper before he has even aligned. More tank, more dps and more tracking. Not really rocket science to decide what to bring.

[poaw]

If I die in pvp, no problem. But it should be by the skills/wits from another pilot or my own stupidity, not some lame ass gamemechanic that doesn't really leave you an option.

I'm pretty sure everyone trying to engage unprobeable snipers said the exact same thing.

[Mike deVoid]

T2 probe launcher incoming for winter. Face it - sniping is forever dead.

[Durzel]

T2 probe launcher incoming for winter. Face it - sniping is forever dead.
It's the same strength as already-available Sisters launchers, with higher pre-requisites (both fitting and skills). Not a big change really.

[Marlona Sky]

I hated trying to fight against a sniping unprobable ship. As soon as you started to get somewhat close to tackle it, they would just warp to another part on the grid and all your work was for nothing. That said, at the time, it was in fact the only way to make sniping possible for a battleship. Now that they are not unprobable anymore, we need to still think about how to make it viable. Not shout at each other over a dead tactic as if giving a boost to sniping is going to make unprobable sniping possible again because it wont.

There needs to be many, many different forms of combat in this game. Not two or three and that's it like it is now. Like what has been pointed out several times, no matter what fit or skills or tactics, sniping is dead because of the probing system. That same probing system will rape even the new BC's with large guns it is that easy and fast, so before you saying sniping belongs with the new toys, don't.

In many ways there really should be a new thread on how to change the probing system into something that scales depending on effort the player+ship+skills puts into that profession. Once something well balanced and reasonable is determined, then we can dust of the idea of sniping and discuss it with the idea of the new probing system. Then again, that would be theory crafting pretty far ahead.

Now that I said that though, figuring out a new probing system would require some talk about sniping and all the other things related to probing...

[Rhaegor Stormborn]

Make probing ships in space much more difficult than signatures/anoms.

[Spartan Dax]

Just increase the scan time with the amount of probes launched. ECCM'd ships requires more probes to scan down and thus gets more time on the field before the probers scan is complete. You'll get to snipe a few volleys before they get a ping on your location and force you to relocate. Doesn't have to be harder than that.

[joe space]

stats on new tier 3 bc say fixed and stop your bitching. /thread

[Samp]

I honestly still don't see why current probing mechanics have any bearing on the viability of sniping.

"It's too easy to probe ships" I do understand (though not agree with) but
"Becasue it's easy to probe ships sniping doesn't work" I still don't understand. People snipe. I was just with Volt, they spend half their lives in munnins and kill shit. Verangians before them same dealio. Brick squad warped around the grid in long range cerbs. Every attempt at sniping doesn't end in failure becasue of being probed.

My main point from my last post which may have been obfescated by my rambling was that being probed doesn't kill your fleet. Being bubbled doesn't kill your fleet. Then enemy fleet shooting you kill your fleet. If they are tackled - then they aren't goign to drop on you. If you have scouts then they aren't next door. If you have a cloaky on their titan then you know what's going down - this is life in 0.0; if you engage an enemy when they have a fleet in space which you have no eyes on - yes they are goign to land on you. Wouldn't matter if you are sniping or not. Moreover - if you don't have eyes and tackle on the fleet, what the fuck are you shooting at?

[Max Teranous]

As someone mentioned in another thread, changing the min warpable distance from 150km to 250km would change a hell of alot and improve sniping. Sure the prober can still get you fast (which i agree is stupid) but the gang you've warped in on cannot just warp to the prober before you've aligned - as they'll be well within 250km.

Max 8-)

[joe space]

As someone mentioned in another thread, changing the min warpable distance from 150km to 250km would change a hell of alot and improve sniping. Sure the prober can still get you fast (which i agree is stupid) but the gang you've warped in on cannot just warp to the prober before you've aligned - as they'll be well within 250km.

Max 8-)


That's a pretty good idea, except I'd compromise at 200km. It's already possible to manipulate grids so people landing at tacticals of something that they'd like to warp to don't land on grid. That is kind of a lame way of forcing people to risk warping into bubbles. so fix grids so that you will always see something 200km away and then make the warp to distance 200km imo

[RoemySchneider]

As someone mentioned in another thread, changing the min warpable distance from 150km to 250km would change a hell of alot and improve sniping. Sure the prober can still get you fast (which i agree is stupid) but the gang you've warped in on cannot just warp to the prober before you've aligned - as they'll be well within 250km.

Max 8-)ehm yes... how does this differ from 100-120km sniping except that with ewar out of the picture and with tracking being double, nothing can counter this concept except itself?