LOL- Magic man thread (AP Champs)

[cullnean]

Replay thread was getting derailed, so here's a new thread to discuss mage's/solomid AP builds!

Doran's ring to start is wrong KK!

flingo changed my title, enjoy a new one

[FUzziBabes]

I start meki pendant and 2 mana pots so I can harrass really early

[Serious Bob]

I actually don't think a doran ring start is always bad. If your champ can push harder and has longer range harass then you can farm up and find a suitable time to b and get boots more dorans.

[cullnean]

I start meki pendant and 2 mana pots so I can harrass really early

surley not on all ap champs?

i wouldnt do that on say karthus or swain

[Voulture]

I start meki pendant and 2 mana pots so I can harrass really early

"May the boots be with you"

[evil edna]

if you have longer range harass then imo boots are even more important, you can kite the other guy then and harass without danger.

see orianna pre nerf and cass

[Nicho Void]

Why the doran's hate?

[Zekk Pacus]

Because it gives zero sustain in what is a poke heavy lane.

[Nicho Void]

Because it gives zero sustain in what is a poke heavy lane.
On champs with superior range, it gives increased mana regen allowing more pokes, plus an HP buffer.

[TroN]

I am terrible at AP mid, but when I do play it I usually go Boots+pot.

[filingo]

what runes do people suggest?

i have

mpen
mana regen
scaling ap
flat ap quints

for my caster page

[evil edna]

i have 2 caster rune pages

one for annie which is flat ap quints, flat ap blues, flat ap yellows and spell pen reds

for everyone else i use flat ap quints, mana regen yellows and cooldown reduction blues and spell pen reds

[Voulture]

They are good. Honestly, as long as you got red mpen and ap quints you cannot go wrong.

As for doran: hp buffor is irrelevant, if you get ganked by jungle without boots, you will die. You can poke a bit harder than enemy, you canno dodge anything with your base speed while enemy can. You will be lower hp every poke exchange, enemy will heal up with his pots. In a few minutes you will find yourself being zoned from creeps.

[cullnean]

caster runes are

mpen reds
mana regen yellows
ap blues
ap quints

[Blutreiter]

I put on my Negatron and my Rabadons Cap.

[Kanv]

i'm here for my a wizard

[Serious Bob]

They are good. Honestly, as long as you got red mpen and ap quints you cannot go wrong.

As for doran: hp buffor is irrelevant, if you get ganked by jungle without boots, you will die. You can poke a bit harder than enemy, you canno dodge anything with your base speed while enemy can. You will be lower hp every poke exchange, enemy will heal up with his pots. In a few minutes you will find yourself being zoned from creeps.
I like dorans on gragas, he gets sustain from the mana regen and can e away from harm. Boots is a good choice but I don't feel doran is completely worthless. (And I've seen top level players go doran too.)

[TroN]

I too go dorans on gragas thinking about it.

[evil edna]

thats bad, go boots then 3x dorans

[filingo]

MOAR DORANS = MOAR POWER RIGHT

[Nicho Void]

I don't know. I have a problem with the "always take boots, because otherwise you can't avoid poke/avoid jungle ganks" line. If that logic held up, boots + hp would be standard open on every single lane champ.

Not saying the advice is bad, I just think doran's is viable on certain champs.

[Spaztick]

I wouldn't go doran's for mid lane. Either shield because you picked vlad or gem + pots

[Zekk Pacus]

I don't know. I have a problem with the "always take boots, because otherwise you can't avoid poke/avoid jungle ganks" line. If that logic held up, boots + hp would be standard open on every single lane champ.

Not saying the advice is bad, I just think doran's is viable on certain champs.

It's viable if you know the person you're playing against is going to play passive (for example you have an agressive jungler) or your pick just straight out beats them. But if it's a poke heavy lane (which in soloq it almost always is), dodge and sustain is king.

[Drachenlord]

I wouldn't go doran's for mid lane. Either shield because you picked vlad or gem + pots

Who the fuck still plays Vlad?

[TroN]

thats bad, go boots then 3x dorans

You are mistaking me for someone good at AP champs.

[Drachenlord]

You are mistaking me for someone good at AP champs.

TBH there's never any legitimate reason to stack 3x Rings... 2x yes, but not 3x Doran's...

[FUzziBabes]

TBH there's never any legitimate reason to stack 3x Rings... 2x yes, but not 3x Doran's...

Thats how I do it, only 2, don't need a third

[evil edna]

i dont like double dorans > deathcap, feels a bit too weak early on

basic rule of dorans is more dorans is better than less dorans

[Zekk Pacus]

I'm generally not a fan of double Dorans - Catalyst gives you the same sustain/health and can be turned into something later on. But v0v, both are good builds.

[FUzziBabes]

You go Doran rings with a combination of runes/masteries to make yourself scary, those 2 doran rings, magic pen mastery, magic pen runes/Ap runes, and then the sorc boots makes you quite scary, catalyst just makes me think "ok so they are intending on staying in the lane, I'm going to go gank their team instead then"
I don't remember the last time a catalyst caster in mid gave me any trouble in mid with double dorans.

In the early game enemies don't tend to be very tanky, be it health or magic res so going dorans and fast deathcap gives you enough damage to outright kill the enemy.

I like to go all out balls deep and kill everything rather then play the poking game personally...Works well with my play style

[Spaztick]

Who the fuck still plays Vlad?Exactly. I kinda wish they didn't nerf his Q cooldown though. Not much point in playing him ATM.

[Nicho Void]

You go Doran rings with a combination of runes/masteries to make yourself scary, those 2 doran rings, magic pen mastery, magic pen runes/Ap runes, and then the sorc boots makes you quite scary, catalyst just makes me think "ok so they are intending on staying in the lane, I'm going to go gank their team instead then"
I don't remember the last time a catalyst caster in mid gave me any trouble in mid with double dorans.

In the early game enemies don't tend to be very tanky, be it health or magic res so going dorans and fast deathcap gives you enough damage to outright kill the enemy.

I like to go all out balls deep and kill everything rather then play the poking game personally...Works well with my play style
Pretty much this. I only ever went double doran's with pre-nerf orianna.

[Drachenlord]

Exactly. I kinda wish they didn't nerf his Q cooldown though. Not much point in playing him ATM.

Wasn't really the CD nerf as much as it was nerfing the base damage at the same time... they went overboard like they always fucking do... CD was fine, damage was unnecessary.

[Raxxman]

If were talking bout off tanky mages, Sion really works with the triple Doran ring. I know he doesn't really go mid, but he should build at least a bit like an AP caster.

[Spaztick]

But dat lifesteal.

[Omega Supreme]

I don't see why people think AP Sion is viable. He's much better AD, especially to take advantage of the ult's lifesteal. Does Lichbane work with lifesteal?

[Spaztick]

Nope, lichbane magic damage.

[Goldsnake]

I don't see why people think AP Sion is viable. He's much better AD, especially to take advantage of the ult's lifesteal. Does Lichbane work with lifesteal?

because you don't need the ult when you kill people with a stun + a shield burst ;...;

[Zekk Pacus]

Nope, lichbane magic damage.

Wrong, the passive is physical damage. Still not really worth it, though.

Anyway - I can see the advantage of double dorans except it's 990 gold away from proper items - Cata is buildable into a lot of stuff. Double Dorans is more early game - Catalyst is more 'imma sit in lane' but it's really nice on champs that like to spam. For example Kassadin with a Catalyst can be a nightmare to deal with. Will try double dorans a few times and see what works better I guess.

[Grarr Dexx]

I don't think you can really generalize a statement like 'dorans better than not dorans'. They are early game situational items and stacking two or three may just work if it helps you out-harass and out-survive your opponent.

[evil edna]

dorans better than no dorans but 3 dorans better than 2 dorans

ALWAYS

[Nicho Void]

dorans better than no dorans but 3 dorans better than 2 dorans

ALWAYS
Boots better than dorans. 2 boots better than 1 boots.

[Spaztick]

dorans better than no dorans but 3 dorans better than 2 dorans

ALWAYSALWAYS TANK, NEVER DIE

HUEHUEHUE

[filingo]

post better before i nuke thread

HUE HUE HUE HUE

e:

October 4 2011 05:02 PM
Bluemajere

This message has been deleted by filingo.

nbs

October 4 2011 05:12 PM
Voulture

This message has been deleted by filingo.

seriously you faggots

[filingo]

Surprised we didn't have a mage thread, after assassins, meta/counter and jungle.

So separated them into three categories: Burst, DoT/DPS and ???

Need help putting ones I get wrong into the right category.

Burst
---
Annie
Brand
Kassadin
Leblanc
Ryze
Veigar
Xerath

DoT/Sustained DPS
---
Malzahar
Swain
Anivia
Fiddlesticks
Karthus
Morgana

???
---
Cassiopeia (The reason here is that she has qualities of both burst AND DoT due to her kit, I'm not sure where to put her)
Zilean (Leans towards bursty, but not really sure if he should be called that)
Lux (See above)
Cho'Gath
Heimerdinger
Kennen
Vladimir
Rumble


Note: These are only composed of champions CLEARLY labelled as mage in the client. Just because a champ can be built AP and played like a mage, doesn't mean they get on the list.

also pantheon is a wizard of throwing his long hard "spear"

[evil edna]

cho is a burst mage if built that way

[Omega Supreme]

Mage CC list, sorted by type

Silence
---
Malzahar
Kassadin
Cho'Gath
Rumble (self-inflicted)
Fiddlesticks
Leblanc

Slow
---
Zilean
Kassadin
Anivia
Swain
Karthus
Cassiopeia
Rumble
Vladimir
Cho'Gath
Orianna
Lux
Heimerdinger

Stun
---
Annie
Brand
Veigar
Xerath
Kennen
Heimerdinger
Anivia
Cassiopeia
Morgana

Snare/Root
---
Swain
Lux
Morgana
Ryze
Leblanc

Other
---
Malzahar (Suppress)
Cho'Gath (Knock up)
Fiddlesticks (Fear)

Unless I messed it up, it looks like Riot favors slow over other CC's.

[filingo]

maokai snares and slows

gailio slows and taunts

[Omega Supreme]

Those two aren't considered mages, however. Note the disclaimer in the division of mage types, only ones actually labelled as mage in the client are being counted.

People tend to play them more as tanks than AP casters.

[Vorkash]

That list is wrong.

Anivia, Fiddlesticks, Orianna, Cassiopeia and Morgana all have stuns or skills that function as a stun.

[LoKiPP]

TBH there's never any legitimate reason to stack 3x Rings... 2x yes, but not 3x Doran's...

I stack 3 rings on morgana. By the time you usually have to back for the first time you have enough to buy two more and boots. Although I'm not really sure where I got the guide but its been working out pretty well for me.

[FUzziBabes]

Malzahar has a Stun/Supression in his ultimate
Cho Gath has a Knock up which is pretty much a stun
Leblanc has a root (E)
Anivia has a actual stun (Q)
Cass has a stun (Ultimate)
Lux has a slow (Her E before you detonate)
Heimerdinger has a slow (turrets brah)
Morgana has a stun/slow, her ultimate slows while active and stuns at the end
Fiddle has a fear which pretty much can count as a stun

Missed quite a few there...

Champions in game doesn't count as a mage:
Gragas, Janna, Katarina, Nidalee?

[Omega Supreme]

Fixed the list, was kinda half asleep when I made it, thus missed a bit.

[Omega Supreme]

Is this guy a clever bot or something?

[TroN]

Moar Dorans = Killing Spree :D

Nominated for post of the year

[Kanv]

Is there a way to self cancel Nunus Ultimate?

[cullnean]

move

[Kanv]

move

....
fuck:emo::facepalm:

[Omega Supreme]

Decided to try Cho'Gath again. holy shit. Full tank mode and they couldn't do shit to me solo top. Is that normal or is it as I suspect, I was up against a really shit solotopwick?

[Mendolorian Girl]

Decided to try Cho'Gath again. holy shit. Full tank mode and they couldn't do shit to me solo top. Is that normal or is it as I suspect, I was up against a really shit solotopwick?

even without tank, Cho'Gath is a motherfucker to budge top lane. You can stop him from hurting you, but move him.. lolsorrynop. Only hope is that you can successfully gang rape him a couple of times. But it'll usually take 3 of you to nuke him down :(

[Hehulk]

Morello's talking about boosting Xereth, changing the passive from the +armour per AP he's got now, to a % damage increase based on range.

:D

I will kind of miss having 170 armour late game though if that goes though

[FatFreddy]

Yeah xerath totally needs a buff :psyduck:

Not enough sales on him or what?

[Raxxman]

Morello at times comes across so stupid. (Those would be the times he opens his mouth)

[Hehulk]

Guess so. See if I complain, already so easy to just farm and incindentally poke the enemy low. If Morello wants to make it easier, see if I complain extra extra loud

[Omega Supreme]

Decided to try Cho'Gath again. holy shit. Full tank mode and they couldn't do shit to me solo top. Is that normal or is it as I suspect, I was up against a really shit solotopwick?

even without tank, Cho'Gath is a motherfucker to budge top lane. You can stop him from hurting you, but move him.. lolsorrynop. Only hope is that you can successfully gang rape him a couple of times. But it'll usually take 3 of you to nuke him down :(

Yeah, it got to be where the team needed 5 to drop me AND I had to be down low on HP. He's a load of fun, need to play him more.

[Bluemajere]

da build that rules da world is

frozen heart, force of nature, wits end, merc treads, guardian angel, then literally whatever the fuck you want as your last item, maybe da warmogs i have no god damn clue because youy own so fucking hard at that point that it's like what the fuck ever

[FUzziBabes]

Why are we talking about Cho Gath in the caster thread, just sayin'

[Grarr Dexx]

Well he isn't a fuckin ad carry meight

[Captator]

How is Kog'Maw not on the mage list?

2 caveats for that though; need a good tank (character and player), and must go midlane.

I always start boots+2 pots on mages, typically going back to get tear, then going sorc boots, rabadon's, mejai (if I/team am/is not fail), archangel's, lich bane...

AP kog works out at 700 damage shells every 0.7 seconds, with a well stocked archangel can fire about 20 consecutively.

MPen reds, mana /5 yellows, CD blues, flat health quints (so useful early game).

Skilling is QWWQER then prioritise R>E>W>Q. Basically should be a guarenteed kill as soon as you get ulti if you are well matched or better than opponent.

[Omega Supreme]

Because Kog'Maw is not a fucking mage, he's a ranged DPS with a magic damage spell.

[Bluemajere]

How is Kog'Maw not on the mage list?

2 caveats for that though; need a good tank (character and player), and must go midlane.

I always start boots+2 pots on mages, typically going back to get tear, then going sorc boots, rabadon's, mejai (if I/team am/is not fail), archangel's, lich bane...

AP kog works out at 700 damage shells every 0.7 seconds, with a well stocked archangel can fire about 20 consecutively.

MPen reds, mana /5 yellows, CD blues, flat health quints (so useful early game).

Skilling is QWWQER then prioritise R>E>W>Q. Basically should be a guarenteed kill as soon as you get ulti if you are well matched or better than opponent.

no

ap kogmaw sucks

and kogmaw should never go mid

get out

[Spaztick]

Shred kog maw works nice, though. I don't much care for AP kog. I would do it if his passive was increased by AP.

[FUzziBabes]

Well he isn't a fuckin ad carry meight

Hes not an AP carry either, hes always top and never mid, you never build any AP on him because you build him full tank to boss the enemy carries around and then nom on them

He does not deserve to be in this thread, end of story.

Also fuck Kassidin in the ass, whats a AP carry counter to Kassidin apart from a magic res stacking rune page?

[evil edna]

morgana

[Goldsnake]

Well he isn't a fuckin ad carry meight

Hes not an AP carry either, hes always top and never mid, you never build any AP on him because you build him full tank to boss the enemy carries around and then nom on them

He does not deserve to be in this thread, end of story.

Also fuck Kassidin in the ass, whats a AP carry counter to Kassidin apart from a magic res stacking rune page?


Annie EVERY BUTTAN blow him up either before the silence hits, or wait for it to finish

[Polysynchronicity]

morgana

this

whenever he tries to silence, alt-W to self shield yourself

if he blinks onto you, rape him

[Serious Bob]

Sion counters kass too, just pop your shield when he Qs. Outpush him hard early and then go gank when he feebly tries to last hit under tower.

[Voulture]

Ap counters to Kas - Swain (let him jump, even with blue buff you still can combo him if you follow before he can jump out), Morgana, Galio, Sion. Xerath maybe. Kennen obviously but hey, what is a champion Kennen can't counter? Same with Akali, should outfarm him very badly.

He actually counter Annie quite badly, she got terrible range on spells, R/Q/E and walk away before she can hit you.

[Raxxman]

what is a champion Kennen can't counter?

I have found Ryze is a fairly hardcounter to Kennen, he can Q dance with Kennen and win, and just Rune Prision any attempt to lightning rush him.

[FUzziBabes]

I have found Kennen bosses EVERYTHING around in mid lane, the only one I have had trouble with was Kassidin, but if you see the rage thread then you will note that he lived at least 5-6 times on 20 health, and then the enemy jungler ganked me and I just lost the lane there, need to change my item build for kennen against him. Don't think going fast WotA is optimal, might go rylai's for the health boost from now on.

My main annoyance was the fact that my main damage output was a skill shot and he could just sit behind minions and Q me to death, it sucked hard ;3

[FatFreddy]

You do realize Kennens Q is a skillshot aswell.

[FUzziBabes]

You do realize Kennens Q is a skillshot aswell.

Ermm, I'm not too sure what you are on about and whether thats directed at me, because Kassidins Q isn't a skillshot. Its point and click...

[Grarr Dexx]

You do realize Kennens Q is a skillshot aswell.

Ermm, I'm not too sure what you are on about and whether thats directed at me, because Kassidins Q isn't a skillshot. Its point and click...

Reading is really hard for you, apparently.

[FatFreddy]

lols, what Grarr said. Read your post and mine again ;)

[Zekk Pacus]

You two are both awful at reading, Fuzzi is moaning that Kass' Q is a targeted spell while Kennen's (who he was playing) isn't, thus Kass could harrass without Kennen being able to harrass back.

Fwiw it's my feeling that Kassadin is close to top tier pick or ban right now.

[Raxxman]

SK got smashed playing kassa, Morg is a good counter if you're fast with the shield.

[FUzziBabes]

You two are both awful at reading, Fuzzi is moaning that Kass' Q is a targeted spell while Kennen's (who he was playing) isn't, thus Kass could harrass without Kennen being able to harrass back.

At least you understood my confusion as to wtf he was on about, I know Kennen's Q is a skillshot because I was playing him...And him saying "aswell" made me assume he was talking about how Kass' Q is a skillshot..Which it isn't...So I don't think my reading skills are the ones that need improving

[Grarr Dexx]

Kennen's shuriken isn't very hard to hit though, just cocaine powerball over the creeps, shuriken, then W for a nice stun.

[Zekk Pacus]

Not like Kassadin is the most mobile of all mages or anything, after all.

[Omega Supreme]

Yeah honestly I think the main problem in dealing with a Kass is that he has a 12 second CD flash. 5s for the ult to come off CD, 7 (or so) seconds for it to not cost more than 100 mana.

How do you counter that, besides being Morgana and having the shield ready?

[evil edna]

lux, too strong, solo top, np

[Zekk Pacus]

Yeah honestly I think the main problem in dealing with a Kass is that he has a 12 second CD flash. 5s for the ult to come off CD, 7 (or so) seconds for it to not cost more than 100 mana.

How do you counter that, besides being Morgana and having the shield ready?

You fuck him up HARDCORE before level 6 so you don't have to deal with his shit.

And I honestly don't think Morg is that great a counter to Kass - if she maxes pool first, she'll have one point in E, which is enough to block the damage from a level 2 Force Pulse, then you still silence her and walk away. If she maxes shield first gg she can't farm for shit. I mean I always run Cleanse on Kass precisely because of champs like Morg - if they get a binding on you, cleanse, riftwalk into another position, fight some more, riftwalk out.

[Grarr Dexx]

You only need pool lvl3 to farm ranged creeps effectively.

[Polysynchronicity]

you don't even need to max pool first, doing that pushes the lane something fierce

i usually max Q unless I need to counterpush

[Venec]

I wonder what you peeps are using for Morgana's item builds, mine is: doran ring, sorc boots, doran ring, needlessly large rod, rabadon's deathcap, rod of ages and banshee's veil if game lasts that long.

[evil edna]

start mana crystal +2 pots > boots > 2x dorans > rod of ages > sorc shoes > zhonyas > deathcap

the zhonyas/deathcap order i switch around depending on how team fights are going. if the other team isnt focusing me ill get deathcap first.

[Voulture]

I prefer to start with boots 3 pots, and with Q/W/W or W/Q/W depending on what chances are for being ganked at lvl 1. Usually it's this or this - 2x doran's + sorc boots into deathcap rush or from boots into catalyst into RoA. I don't really think you need that much mana regen on morg, usually if you don't need to spam W don't do it, last hit with autos as well and keep zoneing your enemies.

And yes Morgana should rape Kas every day. No, not kill. Just make useless.

[Lilalaunebör]

Boots are a must have against certain champs. Cass f.e. will rape your ass at lvl2 if you dont have them. Cant dodge Brand/Malz either if youre slow.

[evil edna]

i just push like a boss until i go back for my first buy at about lvl 5 and get boots then

[Zekk Pacus]

Mana crystal + 2 pots into boots/cata, RoA/Sorc Shoes, Deathcap, Zhonya's, whatever you want. Abyssal, Void Staff, Banshee's and etc.

[Venec]

I've been trying Voult's build, so far with much success. I'll try other ones, thx :)

[Voulture]

It works for every caster, boots first let you dodge and avoid ganks, 3 pots = 600hp in regen means can eat a bit of harass. Than depending:

1) You do fine and your team do fine - 2x dorans into deathcap.
2) Otherwise - cata into roa into deathcap as it assumes a longer game.

Any other items are pretty much luxury - Zonaya is amazing if you can use it well - active let you mitigate huge dmg and avoid cc is timed well. Void staff is neccesery if enemies stack magic armor. Rylai gives you HUGE hp's and a bit more slow on ult. You should not need Archangel Staff but if you still lvling up your account and strugle with mana go for it. Works best if duod with RoA.

Usually if you want to learn a new champ try this http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1619 (just remove umber in the end, pick a champ from list at bottom and look for approved/features guides as they are written by pros or top players) and watch one of those: http://www.solomid.net/videos.php?b=Chaox (there is a game by one of best players with full mechanics and playstyle explenation with many good tips).

Have fun and be on scrapheap chat with us.

[Hehulk]

Cassiopia so strong, it's kinda of mad. Bought her last night, started very very badly at 0/4/0. Started getting my head around her finished 4/5/10. Second game, I go 10/2/3. Her burst is really really frightening, and god damn trying to gank that bitch. You best have a good gap closer and a stun ready :D

[Armag3ddon]

she was on sale yesterday so I got her as well

[FourFiftyFour]

How do you guys build Karth for mid?

I'm assuming boots for mobility which gives you more survivability. I just don't know where to go after that other than generic AP stuff.

[Omega Supreme]

Why would you ever build Mob Boots outside of Dominion?

[FUzziBabes]

Why would you ever build Mob Boots outside of Dominion?

: omega supreme :

He said boots for, not boots of mobility.

For karthus I think generic sorcs, catalyst, rod of ages, deathcap rylais or something. I personally think mejas is a good idea like mid game ish because you will be getting kills/assists from ulti so...

[Omega Supreme]

Why would you ever build Mob Boots outside of Dominion?

: omega supreme :

He said boots for, not boots of mobility.

For karthus I think generic sorcs, catalyst, rod of ages, deathcap rylais or something. I personally think mejas is a good idea like mid game ish because you will be getting kills/assists from ulti so...

I think the better question is why does he need to actually ask what shoes he needs on an AP mid. It's generally accepted, no, that tank = treads/tabi dependant on what you're up against, AP carry = sorc shoes, support = treads, AD carry = Zerker Greaves?

Boots 3 should just be removed from the game, same for +5 boots.

Also stop the : personyou'reinsulting/trolling : shit, it's not funny or clever, never was, never will be. You can get a point across better by saying something like "Did you misread?" or something actually reasonable instead of passive/aggressive nonsense like that.

[Xeuras]

Why would you ever build Mob Boots outside of Dominion?

: omega supreme :

He said boots for, not boots of mobility.

For karthus I think generic sorcs, catalyst, rod of ages, deathcap rylais or something. I personally think mejas is a good idea like mid game ish because you will be getting kills/assists from ulti so...

I think the better question is why does he need to actually ask what shoes he needs on an AP mid. It's generally accepted, no, that tank = treads/tabi dependant on what you're up against, AP carry = sorc shoes, support = treads, AD carry = Zerker Greaves?

Boots 3 should just be removed from the game, same for +5 boots.

Also stop the : personyou'reinsulting/trolling : shit, it's not funny or clever, never was, never will be. You can get a point across better by saying something like "Did you misread?" or something actually reasonable instead of passive/aggressive nonsense like that.

Decent enough rule of thumb, though somewhat generalized. Only exception A.speed is cheap enough as is, and you should rarely, if ever, buy it via boots. Also, +3 boots are pro for certain harass champs (certain solotop GP builds come to mind), and mob boots have their place.

[FourFiftyFour]

Thanks for the response xeuras.

[Bluemajere]

Why would you ever build Mob Boots outside of Dominion?

: omega supreme :

He said boots for, not boots of mobility.

For karthus I think generic sorcs, catalyst, rod of ages, deathcap rylais or something. I personally think mejas is a good idea like mid game ish because you will be getting kills/assists from ulti so...

I think the better question is why does he need to actually ask what shoes he needs on an AP mid. It's generally accepted, no, that tank = treads/tabi dependant on what you're up against, AP carry = sorc shoes, support = treads, AD carry = Zerker Greaves?

Boots 3 should just be removed from the game, same for +5 boots.

Also stop the : personyou'reinsulting/trolling : shit, it's not funny or clever, never was, never will be. You can get a point across better by saying something like "Did you misread?" or something actually reasonable instead of passive/aggressive nonsense like that.

yeah but what if the person is someone who despite all advice still thinks they're good at the game and/or correct no matter how many times you disprove them? AP sion mid always gets +5 boots unless you're an idiot, and there are rare cases where +3 boots can be useful. go back to complaining how much normal games suck. ta.

[Serious Bob]

Why would you ever build Mob Boots outside of Dominion?

: omega supreme :

He said boots for, not boots of mobility.

For karthus I think generic sorcs, catalyst, rod of ages, deathcap rylais or something. I personally think mejas is a good idea like mid game ish because you will be getting kills/assists from ulti so...

I think the better question is why does he need to actually ask what shoes he needs on an AP mid. It's generally accepted, no, that tank = treads/tabi dependant on what you're up against, AP carry = sorc shoes, support = treads, AD carry = Zerker Greaves?

Boots 3 should just be removed from the game, same for +5 boots.

Also stop the : personyou'reinsulting/trolling : shit, it's not funny or clever, never was, never will be. You can get a point across better by saying something like "Did you misread?" or something actually reasonable instead of passive/aggressive nonsense like that.

Decent enough rule of thumb, though somewhat generalized. Only exception A.speed is cheap enough as is, and you should rarely, if ever, buy it via boots. Also, +3 boots are pro for certain harass champs (certain solotop GP builds come to mind), and mob boots have their place.

No Berserker greaves? Wat. You should built it on ad carry 99%.

[Polysynchronicity]

AD carries, especially melee ones, really need tenacity -> get merc treads. cloak and dagger is really shit as a replacement and miracle is a pretty big chunk of gold for not a whole lot (unless you're nasus and/or normally build philo anyway)

that said berserker boots are one of THE most cash efficient sources of early game dps, so definitely can help secure an early game or help with certain heroes that don't have to worry as much about survival (trynd, olaf, anyone who went with an atmogs style build)

tl;dr it's situational like every other fucking thing

[Serious Bob]

An ad carry isn't melee. And tenacity is usually a wasted stat on ranged dps.

[Xeuras]

An ad carry isn't melee. And tenacity is usually a wasted stat on ranged dps.

MRES is never a wasted stat, and in cases where you haven't totally derped up your positioning, tenacity will save your ass.

[evil edna]

every time i see ranged ad carries building anything other than zerker greaves i cry a little inside

[Zekk Pacus]

The killer shoes for your AD Carry:

Get Zerker Greaves to start with, as soon as you have a PD or some other attack speed source, think about if their team is focusing you or not. If they are, get mercs, if not, keep your zerkers.

[Irion]

An ad carry isn't melee. And tenacity is usually a wasted stat on ranged dps.

Does that mean trynd is not an ad carry?

[Voulture]

If you are getting hard cc'ed as AD carry or being focused you are dead anyway and a bit of mres or 30% tenacity is not going to help you. You fucked up at your mobility or placement. Trying to build tank on carries is bad. You are not going to tank anything anyway. And your damage is shit. Tenacity is a good stat on tanks and bruiser they will eat many spells before reaching their carries / squishies. If you are afraid about getting cc'ed you either can predict that from picks and get flash/cleanse or/and build QSS fast. This is also the case of many exhaust gap closers - qss is the only way in game to get rid of exhaust, i am building it on ad carries in like 50% of games.

Baw i am even building zerks on ezraels every game.

@545, boots first always good. Standard karthus build is cata into roa into deathcap if you can get blue buffs alot to keep your farm up. I saw players getting tear early to help with mana and build into AA staff later. Hextech gun ad wota might be good to help you with surv, especially if you got more ap's in team. Zonaya is always good, keep your aoe up for time of duration without eating up your mana. Void staff is obvious. Problem with karthus is that to deal some serious dmg and win fights you are usually supposed to rush into enemies, wall them, make sure you die while they are in your aoe and getting cc'ed and dpsed by rest iof your team than deal even more dmg with unbrakeable ult while you are dead. This is exactly what you are not suppsed to do with others casters, but as i said about ad carries above - getting tank on karthus is getting you nowhere. You might live a bit longer but you will do much much less dps. You are not a bruiser. You are not a rumble.

[evil edna]

i think karthus can either go rod of ages > deathcap which is kinda standard, or you can go double dorans > rylais > deathcap

rylais really good on him

[Serious Bob]

An ad carry isn't melee. And tenacity is usually a wasted stat on ranged dps.

Does that mean trynd is not an ad carry?
Yes. Generally when speaking of AD carry the 'ranged' AD carry is implied. (Incidentally you should go zerker greaves on trynd.)

QSS is the solution to heavy disables, not mercs. Buffed cleanse is also really good. I run cleanse on all carries now, and if the enemy team shits cc I will eventually get a qss. If I can't get away with two full debuff clears then 35% reduced stun duration won't save me. (An extra autoattack might though.)

[Omega Supreme]

An ad carry isn't melee. And tenacity is usually a wasted stat on ranged dps.

Does that mean trynd is not an ad carry?
Yes. Generally when speaking of AD carry the 'ranged' AD carry is implied. (Incidentally you should go zerker greaves on trynd.)

QSS is the solution to heavy disables, not mercs. Buffed cleanse is also really good. I run cleanse on all carries now, and if the enemy team shits cc I will eventually get a qss. If I can't get away with two full debuff clears then 35% reduced stun duration won't save me. (An extra autoattack might though.)

How often has that situation actually occured though? The can't get away with 2x debuff clears.

[Serious Bob]

An ad carry isn't melee. And tenacity is usually a wasted stat on ranged dps.

Does that mean trynd is not an ad carry?
Yes. Generally when speaking of AD carry the 'ranged' AD carry is implied. (Incidentally you should go zerker greaves on trynd.)

QSS is the solution to heavy disables, not mercs. Buffed cleanse is also really good. I run cleanse on all carries now, and if the enemy team shits cc I will eventually get a qss. If I can't get away with two full debuff clears then 35% reduced stun duration won't save me. (An extra autoattack might though.)

How often has that situation actually occured though? The can't get away with 2x debuff clears.
It happens fairly often actually. In solo queue teams are bad at defending you - people will usually dive at whatever char they think need to be focused.

An example - amumu flash ult followed by irelia flash q exhaust. You need to get the fuck out because their whole team is going straight for you. You can partially cure it by better positioning, but if your team doesn't protect you then you need the ability to get the fuck out.

[Vorkash]

Bob, the only person making sense.

[Xeuras]

I honestly don't disagree with anything you or Bob has said here Vorkash. Lategame, if you're getting CC'd, nothing will save you besides good positioning/your team defending you. However, my previous endorsement of treads was from an early/mid game perspective, a stage in the game where I maintain that tenacity/MRes is going to be pretty useful to you (somewhere in the lvl5-13ish range), and honestly, if you've already bought treads, why sell them for zerkers IMO.

[FourFiftyFour]

So I've been having a lot of success with Tear>Boots>Deathcap>ROTA>then the staff that slows things can't remember off the top of my head.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

So I've been having a lot of success with Tear>Boots>Deathcap>ROTA>then the staff that slows things can't remember off the top of my head.

I do love me some Tear first, though that may be my Ryze history coming to the forefront(though Karth is just as spammable, and AA is a hell of a good item when you get the stacks up, so it's not like it's bad), but Deathcap>Rod of Ages seems backwards to me. RoA is cheaper, and it's got the whole snowball over time thing going on, along with the Catalyst proc that's only useful if you get it early. I'd be much more likely to do Boots > Tear > Rod > Deathcap, to get that extra power on the RoA ASAP.

[FourFiftyFour]

:facepalm:

I wrote it down in the wrong order. fail...

Deathcap early is awesome though. Helps me gank the side lanes with so much more ease.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

:facepalm:

I wrote it down in the wrong order. fail...

Deathcap early is awesome though. Helps me gank the side lanes with so much more ease.

Yeah, but it's a 3600 gold item, it's supposed to be awesome. It's not actually very gold-efficient though, unless you already have a bunch of AP items built - it's not terrible even if it's your first item, but you can do better. RoA is more gold-efficient even with zero stacks.

[FourFiftyFour]

I see what you're saying.

I tried blue crystal>Tear>Sorc Boots>Archangel Staff>Deathcap>Rylais>WOTA

I got fed mid game by a terrible mid zilean and after that it was off to the races.

Rylais is awesome for my E as it helps me keep them in the circle.

Spell vamp just because I had the gold but it made me survive for a lot longer.

Edit: I really don't like ROA

[Herschel Yamamoto]

ROA's not for every champ, but if you're building AA then the mana won't go to waste(especially on Karth, who's as mana-hungry as anyone in the game), and health's always nifty. I tend to build it much more on someone like Ryze, who's tanky as fuck and loves +mana items, but it's pretty decent on any mana/AP caster. If you want to avoid RoA, then your build looks pretty good to me.

[Zekk Pacus]

Depends. Gonna be a quick game/bossing about their mid? Double dorans deathcap all day long. RoA assumes a longer game, given that the passive takes time to stack. There's also a risk/reward in RoA - you can get a bit closer and stay in fight a bit longer, so it's good on any champ where you want to play agressive in teamfights or who benefits from hanging around.

Pretty much the only caster item I never buy is Archangels (except on Ryze) - takes too long to stack up, leaves you too squishy vs double dorans or catalyst.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

Depends. Gonna be a quick game/bossing about their mid? Double dorans deathcap all day long. RoA assumes a longer game, given that the passive takes time to stack. There's also a risk/reward in RoA - you can get a bit closer and stay in fight a bit longer, so it's good on any champ where you want to play agressive in teamfights or who benefits from hanging around.

Pretty much the only caster item I never buy is Archangels (except on Ryze) - takes too long to stack up, leaves you too squishy vs double dorans or catalyst.

On anyone who can really spam and who cares about mana, I tend to get Tear early. Feels too much like I have to spend my life going to and from the platform otherwise. Also, AA is insanely gold-efficient - it can occasionally provide more AP than a Deathcap for 800 less gold, plus a billion mana. I'll agree that it's situational, but on champs who can use it right it's a powerful item at a good price, even without Ryze's mana ratios.

[Zekk Pacus]

Thing is, the whole point of AA can be solved by getting mana regen per level runes, being judicious with mana, or asking your jungler for blue.

It's not a bad item on certain champs, but generally there are more effective ways to spend your gold. And it just leaves you with no damage and no lane sustain.

[FUzziBabes]

You should never need archangels staff except on Ryze. Your jungler should be giving you blue so you can focus on building AP items instead of high cost mana items, if your jungler is not doing this it means your in elo hell/playing normals in which case build whatever you like, you should stomp anyway.

[Raxxman]

You should never need archangels staff except on Ryze. Your jungler should be giving you blue so you can focus on building AP items instead of high cost mana items, if your jungler is not doing this it means your in elo hell/playing normals in which case build whatever you like, you should stomp anyway.

What if you're running double AP e.g. fiddle jungle.

AA may be a bit Niche but it is the second highest AP gain in the game. I'm seeing a lot more Tears on high level streams as well. Oce has been building it on Kassadin after RoA

Often Tear isn't needed because double/triple Dorans. I get the incling that they'll nerf the mp5 or make that part unique.

Dorans Ring is increably powerful and useful, Dorans blade is okay and Dorans Shield is really becoming the red headed stepchild.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

Assuming you're playing Karthus with no other +mana effects, AA more than doubles your mana pool(and thus lets you last more than 12 seconds in combat), and gives 128 AP, which is almost as much as Rabadon's for 750 less gold. It makes the early game rocky, since stacking Tear early means waiting for AP items, so I'm not saying it's universally correct or anything, but it's a perfectly reasonable choice.

And re Doran's, that's pretty obvious from their gold efficiency. Compared to the lowest-level item with each effect, Shield is 154% efficient, Blade is 167% efficient, and Ring is 187% efficient. If Shield gave 13 HP5 instead of 8(which would give it equal efficiency to Ring), it'd probably see a lot more play. Ditto a Blade with 140 health. Or, looking at it the other way, a Ring with 10 AP is as efficient as a Blade, and a Ring with 40 health is as efficient as a Shield.

[FourFiftyFour]

I've got the last hitting for Karthus down pretty well so I'm getting almost the full effect of the tear when I go back for Archangels and then it starts all over again.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

I've got the last hitting for Karthus down pretty well so I'm getting almost the full effect of the tear when I go back for Archangels and then it starts all over again.

What starts all over? The AA inherits the Tear's mana snowballing, you know(as does Manamune).

[MicrosoftSam]

So, experienced people... I've only played until mid last year so I stopped before stuff like nocturne and what not.

My question now is; TMA skarner.

I've been building appropriate boots [dependent on opposing team]; trinity force, in the middle sometimes a phylo stone for laning and stuff, frozen heart and banshee's. He's kinda melee caster (?) so this is why I'm posting here.

Decent build? sugestions? tips? I'll take anything 'cause I'm enjoying his ult. (Run into the opposing team, nab their most fed stuff - hopefully squishy - drag back)

I'm most likely posting in the wrong thread, but please bare with me :P

[cmi]

skarner is not really a caster. (imho more of a hybrid ad/ap bruiser like jax)

i build skarner with attackspeed reds, armor yellow and mr(/level) blue. movespeed quints helps on him too, otherwise maybe armor pen. early philostone, some lifesteal and all other items tanky (like nasus) with a sheen (-> tf) for damage. but i only jungled him yet (needs some cc in lanes imho, because you have no real gapcloser like jarvan or lee sin), no laning experience.

guardsman bob quote about skarner: "I like Skarner. Press all buttons. If that doesn't work, press all buttons again." kinda true ;) attack speed combined with the passive is too gud (oh you are slowed?)

[Polysynchronicity]

skarner definitely should jungle. he's my favorite jungler - can't gank well before 6 but his L6 ganks are even better than warwick's.

go AS red, armor yellow, MR blue. standard. 0/21/9. don't bother picking up a wriggles - instead buy cloth+5 to start, then boots, blue crystal, sheen, boots 2, in that order. sheen puts your early dps through the roof with Q spam. vamp sceptre can be picked up somewhere in there for huge sustain as well (although it's not necessary)

you should max Q first as it's your primary source of damage AND slow. max W second, so you can be the fastest thing on the map, hit super fast AND get a lifesaving shield every few seconds. E does nothing for you - not much damage, not much heal, no CC. Ignore it until later.

Your first item after boots 2 is triforce. It gives you a little bit of everything, which is exactly what Skarner needs - speed, attackspeed, damage, a slow, etc etc etc. The upgraded sheen proc is also amazing as you will be hitting it every 2 seconds.

From there you have your choice of building defensive or offensive. If I'm taking a lot of damage I like to grab Aegis of the Legion to get some cheap all-around resists and HP, while providing a nice aura too. Glacial Shroud is viable against physical heavy teams, and Banshees can be great against magical teams, so use your own judgement. You want to build tank as little as possible though, because your DPS is important.

For offense, hybrid items are what you buy. Gunblade I love because it gives AD, AP, and a lot of lifesteal and spellvamp - all of which you can take advantage of. The active also helps catch people so you can begin chain slowing with Q. Rageblade is also an amazing item on him as he builds up to max stacks very quickly, and can use everything it provides as well. After one or two of those you'll probably be wanting to pick up some tank if you haven't already.

I would not go Atmogs or similar on him because I think he really benefits too much from trinity force, and he needs AP+AS to buff his shield and cooldowns anyway.

Lategame transition into tank, you won't do as much damage as the real carries so your job will be to stick on people and CC them to shit.

[cmi]

You want to build tank as little as possible though, because your DPS is important.

haha nice to see both ways really work. i prefer the nasus style :) (gunblade always a go though, if game lasts that long. can transform scepter into it)

[Polysynchronicity]

well, the thing about skarner is that building those items also makes you tankier - you will steal so much life and pop W (a pretty big W due to bonus AP) so often that many heroes simply can't kill you by themselves. you then use this to permaslow people and Q them to death. the best part is that you can keep doing this as long as you have mana and aren't taking huge burst, as you are constantly healing yourself. i've often had teamfights where I was forced to flash out, killed a jungle camp and then had enough HP to go back in and get more kills.

edit: also, remember to be constantly attacking things - anything that's not a tower lowers the cooldown on your ult, so it's really more like a 30 second CD than the 70+ sec base. ulting twice in the same fight is possible.

[FourFiftyFour]

I've got the last hitting for Karthus down pretty well so I'm getting almost the full effect of the tear when I go back for Archangels and then it starts all over again.

What starts all over? The AA inherits the Tear's mana snowballing, you know(as does Manamune).

I meant the spamming for more mana. I guess it doesnt "start all over" but I do have a new goal LOL.

[FUzziBabes]

Stop talking about skarner in the caster thread fuuuuu

[MicrosoftSam]

Stop talking about skarner in the caster thread fuuuuu

sry :P

Also thanks for the tips. Jungling is kinda hard since I remade my acct on NA E to play with some canadian fags on my 200 ping. - level 15 but carrying every game unless everyone's braindead (last 5s of the champ selection lock teemo; vayne and ashe with skarner and ryze selected :psyduck:)

Also, AP-wise, I've been playing morgana. But it still pisses me off when they have AP runes and I don't (lvl 15). I get rocked pretty hard 'cause they have damage and I don't. :< But then lategame comes and morgana carries again.

[david32]

Anybody got them there Spell Vamp Quints yet? Gonna be bad and get some, get the Spell Vamp mastery and rush WotA erry game. Layne Sustayne amirite.

Also I'm a bad.

[Voulture]

I am not going to buy them, Fuzzi states they are king on kennen. Dunno maybe.

[evil edna]

im gonna use them on mundo

[FUzziBabes]

I am not going to buy them, Fuzzi states they are king on kennen. Dunno maybe.

bought them, still haven't plugged them in...Woops

[MicrosoftSam]

Anybody got them there Spell Vamp Quints yet? Gonna be bad and get some, get the Spell Vamp mastery and rush WotA erry game. Layne Sustayne amirite.

Also I'm a bad.

Tried them on xerath. Didn't really impact my gameplay as much as I'd hope to.
Reverted back to typical runes.

Also, how does one kill/avoid getting killed by ahri mid with any champ that has skillshots? I have not a single fight against ahri with xerath. Even with smartcast, her dash is faster than my spell animations. With morgana, it hasn't worked very well either since she'll avoid my binding and pool everytime.

I'd also like to add, even going top or bot, I still feel like a free-kill (on xerath for instance) for her, except on morg when I'm able to pull the ult off.

[Zekk Pacus]

Basically, you don't. She is kind of anti-skillshot. Take someone with a targeted disable, like Sion/Ryze/Annie.

[Serious Bob]

With morg you lead with ult. Ahri pretty annoying I guess since she can just dash from that too.

[MicrosoftSam]

Basically, you don't. She is kind of anti-skillshot. Take someone with a targeted disable, like Sion/Ryze/Annie.


Well the thing is, I'm doing normals (level 21). As such I never know what's going to be on the other team, unless I stop playing skillshot champs completely heh :)

But at least now, I know I'm not alone. I thought I was being bad and/or there was some pattern most people pulled when dashing that I was missing to preemptively stun/snare. :)

[Spaztick]

So Teemo, how well do you do with malady/wits end on him and going ap after that?

Boots/Malady/Wits End/Lich Bane/Deathcap/Scepter or Mallet seems like the build to do. I want to like AP Teemo but AD is just really good on him since all you really do is autoattack unless you want to spread poison around to each champ or make everyone angry with mushroom spam.

[Zekk Pacus]

Basically, you don't. She is kind of anti-skillshot. Take someone with a targeted disable, like Sion/Ryze/Annie.


Well the thing is, I'm doing normals (level 21). As such I never know what's going to be on the other team, unless I stop playing skillshot champs completely heh :)

But at least now, I know I'm not alone. I thought I was being bad and/or there was some pattern most people pulled when dashing that I was missing to preemptively stun/snare. :)

Well, I've not played her much, but most players will just dash at a kind of 45 degree angle from you, so towards and to the side. Guessing which side is a crapshoot, but yeah.

Basically, any champ with high mobility, you need a targeted, preferably instant cast, snare or stun. Ryze is actually retardedly good against that sort of champ.

[Kanv]

So Teemo, how well do you do with malady/wits end on him and going ap after that?

Boots/Malady/Wits End/Lich Bane/Deathcap/Scepter or Mallet seems like the build to do. I want to like AP Teemo but AD is just really good on him since all you really do is autoattack unless you want to spread poison around to each champ or make everyone angry with mushroom spam.
Everybody will already be angry at you.

[Zekk Pacus]

Malady/Madred's/Bloodthirster/Wit's/Mallet. Or just get the fuck out of my face.

[Raxxman]

If Teemo is a mage now....

So when does this Thread start to discuss Riven?

[FUzziBabes]

So Teemo

GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE CASTER THREAD.

[Voulture]

Also, how does one kill/avoid getting killed by ahri mid with any champ that has skillshots? I have not a single fight against ahri with xerath. Even with smartcast, her dash is faster than my spell animations. With morgana, it hasn't worked very well either since she'll avoid my binding and pool everytime.

I'd also like to add, even going top or bot, I still feel like a free-kill (on xerath for instance) for her, except on morg when I'm able to pull the ult off.

Harass her with WQ on xerath from outside range. You got much higher burst, don't waste all R shots while she is dashing around you. It's tricky, but you can do it, outpush and outharass her. Don't let her come close.

[MicrosoftSam]

Sirs.

Draft pick. I usually, as stated earlier, play morgana/xerath. Opposing team bans both and picks brand as their mid. Decent counter? I chose ryze (but had never played him and failed). I was thinking perhaps kennen or cassiopeia? I never do very well with kassadin.

[cmi]

Sirs.

Draft pick. I usually, as stated earlier, play morgana/xerath. Opposing team bans both and picks brand as their mid. Decent counter? I chose ryze (but had never played him and failed). I was thinking perhaps kennen or cassiopeia? I never do very well with kassadin.

i usually had some problems vs anivia and heimer when playing brand. don't know if this was just me or if they are usually good vs him though. also always good mid: malz. level e whenever possible and get money from safety. his e is also good for harass when you got some ap and use it on caster minions.

[MicrosoftSam]

I was under the impression malz wasn't very good post-nerf.

[Omega Supreme]

I was under the impression malz wasn't very good post-nerf.

You were trolled then. Malzahar is god damn annoying to lane against, if only for the fact he's one of the few AP mids that can AFK farm. I'd say AFK farm nearly as well as AP Sion once he gets some AP.

And he can flash + ignite + ult and ruin your day if you're at 50% HP or lower.

[evil edna]

so, about riven

[Voulture]

Fuck off edna, do not troll this thread.

Cass is okish against brand, both push fast. If you do lane skill shots better than enemy you will win. Usually i wouldn't really count on that. Kas is good against brand as well. Anivia is very good too. I wouldn't really risk Ryze, he cannot push his lane at all. You will be last hitting under tower and trying to dodge E very soon, and he will be able to roam. Sion should win against Brand unless you are dumb and walk into E/Q.

Malz is meh. Very strong against braindead enemies.

[evil edna]

seriously just play annie. she beats every mid apart from kass or sion

[Raxxman]

So with the dodge refund I picked up Morg

First AP I've really enjoyed lots of fun and black shield is great.

Whats the usual build? Cata RoA or double D Deathcap?

[evil edna]

cata > roa > deathcap/zhonyas. depending on how focused the other team is on killing you dictates the order of the hat/zhonyas

[cmi]

Malz is meh. Very strong against braindead enemies.

He is my safe bet, whenever I don't know how I do vs some champ I don't know and Morg is banned (not doing mid very often). Silence and safe farm with e.

[Venec]

I just want to say that I fell in love with Cassiopeia.

[Voulture]

Go away she is mine.

[Venec]

Go away she is mine.

Mine!

But damm, she's so squishy.

[Voulture]

Becouse you usually don't double ring into deathcap on her. Try fast cata -> roa -> hextech revolver -> rylai.

[Venec]

Just tell me what cata stands for and I'm good to go.

[Raxxman]

Just tell me what cata stands for and I'm good to go.

catalyst of the protector.

[FUzziBabes]

Most Cass I see do sorcs -> double dorans -> Giants belt -> Rylai's -> Wota -> deathcap. They doing it wrong or is it a personal preference type of thing?

[Voulture]

It's good too. Just need fast rylai and spellwamp than deathcap. How you gonna do that doesnt matter.

[FourFiftyFour]

Just picked up Xerath and Fiddles to compliment Karthus in my line up.

Xerath's range is fun and very satisfying when you get multi-kills from a single Q after team fights.

Fiddles is just fun as hell

[TroN]

This is really unrelated to Wizards etc. But can someone change the thread title to You're. It is really starting to get to me (and I know that is the best way to not get it changed).

[Polysynchronicity]

This is really unrelated to Wizards etc. But can someone change the thread title to You're. It is really starting to get to me (and I know that is the best way to not get it changed).

i'm pretty sure it's intentional bro :3

[Herschel Yamamoto]

This is really unrelated to Wizards etc. But can someone change the thread title to You're. It is really starting to get to me (and I know that is the best way to not get it changed).

No dude, my a wizard.

[TroN]

This is really unrelated to Wizards etc. But can someone change the thread title to You're. It is really starting to get to me (and I know that is the best way to not get it changed).

i'm pretty sure it's intentional bro :3

I know, but it still gets to me!

[evil edna]

me too actually

[Venec]

Damm, LeBlanc is super fun, but sometimes she's sooo damm confusing and I end up going full retard.

[Raxxman]

Damm, LeBlanc is super fun, but sometimes she's sooo damm confusing and I end up going full retard.

Not really got her to work for me, for some reason I feel like i'm hitting all my skill shots around lvl 6 but not bursting jack shit down.

[Serious Bob]

Lebonc is fun but really hard due to her squishiness. You need to have great positioning and utilise her spells very well. I've had some fun as support lebonc, it's decently viable. Very mobile to get out of shit, can have a double snare at 6 or decent burst. Her skills scale fairly well so not building much ap doesn't really hurt her.

[filingo]

fix'd

edit : a worthy 3000th poast

[FourFiftyFour]

What do you all think about Malz? I've seen him be used effectively but I'm wondering how he stacks up relative to Brand.

[Zekk Pacus]

Malz is a strong laner who's kind of outshone in teamfights for a few reasons:

-His ult is a two second stun, but it stuns him for just as long if not longer than it stuns the target.
-His ult is his only CC. Compare to Annie's AOE stuns, Brand's targeted stun, Anivia's line stun, Ahri's skillshot taunt, etc.
-Rest of his shit is hard to apply effectively - best case scenario is you get someone ulted on your pool with E on them and then silence them, and other people. Worst case is you miss everything.
-Zero escapes when things go wrong.

But as I said his laning is very strong. Max R>E>Q>W. Double dorans, revolver if you need it, deathcap rylais void staff OR cata into roa deathcap void staff. Revolver strong however you go, but you don't always need it. E clears waves from rank 3 with a few AP behind it, before that you can last hit or auto the target with the E on it. A really effective way to get early fb is to take Q and prep a voidling at spawn, go to lane and don't use any spells until level 2 when you get E. Silence, E + Ignite + Voidling is a TON of damage at early levels, a lot of champs will just straight die to it. Even if they don't die they have to back.

Thing is for all his laning strength he's super vulnerable to ganks (natural tendency to push and no escape) and not as strong as top tier mages in teamfights. Fun to play though.

[evil edna]

my malz guide

dont play malz hes shit

[FourFiftyFour]

Yeah the "fun to play" part is what always sucks me in to champions I know are not top tier. I already have casters in Karthus and Xerath so I think I will just save for a top tier support.

[Zekk Pacus]

Honestly for casters, learn Annie and Morg. I would say learn Kass but he is permaban in all draft types unless you sky elo, in which case he's no fun to play because people know how to deal with him.

[FourFiftyFour]

One of the guys I do premades with all the time pretty much exclusively uses morgana so I dont really have a chance to learn her unless I want to endure the hell that is solo queue. I can never bring myself to play annie anymore because I have a very very hard time controlling tibbers as well as her. Its the same thing with shaco.

[Voulture]

Annie is shit, Morg perma banned.
Cass, Xerath, Ryze, Ahri, Swain would be my best 5 pick. Counter any lane possible, best at their roles. Karthus if you really know your shit and got a decent team.

[FourFiftyFour]

Karthus is my go to character whenever I'm having a shit LoL day. I feel his passive is the best in the game. On top of that the other team has to live with the specter of my ult hanging over their heads which gets a boost from executioner.

[evil edna]

annie isnt shit at all. at lower elo play she totally dominates most mids. ahri is really strong right now tho and super fun, try her

[Omega Supreme]

Karthus is my go to character whenever I'm having a shit LoL day. I feel his passive is the best in the game. On top of that the other team has to live with the specter of my ult hanging over their heads which gets a boost from executioner.

Does it? Always thought that only worked on physical damage.

And yes, Karthus is a nice "Zero fucks given" champ, especially if you catch somebody running away at 25% or lower HP. :lol:

[FourFiftyFour]

When I read the description of the mastery it doesnt say anything about physical damage so I assumed it applied to karths ult.

[Voulture]

It does work with any kind of dmg and it's a good mastery.

[Omega Supreme]

Well I roll 21/0/9 or 21/9/0 depending on the AP anyway, so maybe I did think that at first, haven't been paying much attention to masteries nowadays.

[FUzziBabes]

Annie is shit, Morg perma banned.
Cass, Xerath, Ryze, Ahri, Swain would be my best 5 pick. Counter any lane possible, best at their roles. Karthus if you really know your shit and got a decent team.

None of those can counter a decent Annie...Ryze I have seen can survive her burst if he is awake and hits ulti and his spells fast enough for the spell vamp, and cass does enjoy slapping Annie around but the other three, Ahri has to be really fucking on it with her ulti to dodge the stun and even then Annie can just use Q to stun her with.

Your lack of Kennen disappoints me as well, Kennen is the best and most under played mid, no exceptions imo

[FourFiftyFour]

I think Xerath can counter annie because of his range. Maybe not full on "rape the lane" counter but he can match up against her well.

[Voulture]

Yes, he got also more aoe dmg and higher burst at 6.
I am sorry Fuzi, obviously Kennen should be there as well, i still can't stop thinking about him not as a solo top rape machine.

[Grarr Dexx]

yay for power creep

[filingo]

is brand still stronk or slightly overshadowed now?

the only ap caster i play decently is karthus, i've tried annie and akali and im not very good with them. im a terrible akali. so bad.

i have morgana, ryze, veigar unlocked to play - thinking of trying to play some ryze but didnt get on with him last time. im ok on morgana but not great and veigar is only for team yordle imo

i was thinking of brand because i find aoe spells easiest to deal with.

[Herschel Yamamoto]

How were you building Ryze?

[Kanv]

I find fiddlesticks to be relaxing to play, knowing the rage that your abilities will cause on the other team

[FourFiftyFour]

I find fiddlesticks to be relaxing to play, knowing the rage that your abilities will cause on the other team


I don't like fiddles. It's weird...

[Venec]

Lux is super fun; there is something satisfying spamming your ulti left and right. Just had a game when their Ashe disco'd at the beginning; fast forward to me being fed and opposing Yi daring us to kill Ashe. One lazor later we were all laughing like a madmen.

[Omega Supreme]

Lux is super fun; there is something satisfying spamming your ulti left and right. Just had a game when their Ashe disco'd at the beginning; fast forward to me being fed and opposing Yi daring us to kill Ashe. One lazor later we were all laughing like a madmen.

How much MPen and AP do you need to deal 700 damage to 1000 MR?

[Venec]

Lux is super fun; there is something satisfying spamming your ulti left and right. Just had a game when their Ashe disco'd at the beginning; fast forward to me being fed and opposing Yi daring us to kill Ashe. One lazor later we were all laughing like a madmen.

How much MPen and AP do you need to deal 700 damage to 1000 MR?

I had something like 740 AP and 6.5 Mpen.

[Omega Supreme]

I dunno, doesn't sound like it should still kill. 1000 MR gives you 93% resist.

[Venec]

Believe me, I just took a blind shot and got ace. I was just suprised as others.

[Omega Supreme]

Sounds like it! Playing Lux can be hilarious for moments like that, I recently sniped a Shaco that was running away from a fight. He went into stealth from Q, I ulted aiming for somebody else and got him.

[Venec]

Yeah, definitely my new favorite champ :)

[Raxxman]

Yeah, definitely my new favorite champ :)

I went to gank bot, aimed for near dead support, missed, got double kill.

I'll allow it..

[Venec]

I'm looking for a fun mage; already tried Lux, Cass, Morgana, LeBlanc (I suck with her, got refund and bought Lux) and Ahri. Was thinking about getting Swain or Xerath. Any suggestions?

[Herschel Yamamoto]

I'm looking for a fun mage; already tried Lux, Cass, Morgana, LeBlanc (I suck with her, got refund and bought Lux) and Ahri. Was thinking about getting Swain or Xerath. Any suggestions?

I've been having a lot of fun with Xerath lately. Harass early, then hit 6 and burst down your lane opponent with stun and ult. Also, he's one of the very few champs who outranges towers, which is always fun, and when you're ganking you don't even need to enter the lane - just drop your chains and hit them from the jungle.

[Venec]

Sounds like fun, but from what I gather he has huge mana problems, right?

[FUzziBabes]

I would like to play against a decent xerath as an AP carry in mid, every xerath I play versus is terrible so I can't make any decent decisions about which mids lose to him, but most xerath's are so predictable and just root themselves to close to you so you just flash burst them before they can realise wtf is going on.

Kennen still my most fun mid or top, works so well, seen Kennen's taking teleport nowadays so might have to give that a try

[Herschel Yamamoto]

Sounds like fun, but from what I gather he has huge mana problems, right?

He can, yeah. I usually get two rings on him early, which clears up the worst of it, but your ult burst at 6 requires north of 600 mana, which is hard if you've been harassing hard or pushing the lane. I do definitely notice myself going B more often with him than most other mids, though I'm pretty profligate with my spell spam(especially if the other mid is bad at dodging).

[Voulture]

I have never had any problems with mana on xerath. You don't even buy roa on him, it's a waste of mana stat. Just don't spam your shit in lane unless you got blue. He is retardly strong, better than annie in every possible way imho but edna will disagree with me. He got highest burst of all bursty champs (can't count cass etc). I do QEQEQR on him early, fuck W without mana and ap to actually harass with range. He is godlike ganker, anyone saying that his skills are hard to aim have never played him. If done correctly there is no way to miss Q on targets during combo, you consume stun mark with ult. And you need to be retarded to miss that. Imho, one of strongests mids, but very underplayed.

[evil edna]

i disagree, with the annie part anyway.

however xerath is a fucking rapewagon. really he is so strong right now but for some reason noone plays him. ive played mid vs xeraths in soloq and got utterly battered while playing ahri and annie, which basically never happens to me.

i own him but for some reason have never even played him, apparently like every other ap player in the game.

[Voulture]

The only reason i don't play him is that i am just better at cass / vlad / kennen.

[FUzziBabes]

I haven't lost as Annie versus a xerath ever, I haven't played in a while though so maybe the rapewagon Xerath's are around instead of the bad ones

[Voulture]

As i said, i am always willing to do 1v1s. I think we did like 30 or more ever with Edna and at least a few with Bob. Want to check you mid skills, please pm me. I am always happy to train.

[FUzziBabes]

1vs1's are quite a strange thing though, because mids tend to get golem donated to them around the 7 minute mark so its a bit hard to re-create that. Can always give it a whirl though

[Omega Supreme]

Picked up on playing Anivia again, holy shit is she fun once more.

[Irion]

I don't remember the last time I won a game with a xerath on my team but I can remember loads of losses, maybe hes just a dark horse waiting to become FOTM but atm he has the freekill tag.

[Omega Supreme]

I don't remember the last time I won a game with a xerath on my team but I can remember loads of losses, maybe hes just a dark horse waiting to become FOTM but atm he has the freekill tag.

He's like Ezreal and Lux. in that you need to understand skillshots work and if you don't, you can't really do much with him.

Edit: Just played against a Swain with Clarity and Teleport. I was Brand. :razor:

Been wondering, what mages are it better (excepting Kennen of course) where you go Rod of Ages first instead of 2x Doran into Deathcap?

[Zekk Pacus]

It's never flat out better to go one or the other. 2 dorans + deathcap is early damage at the cost of sustain and gank resilience and is the best way to go when you are confident in your ability to beat a lane and/or can push and need the extra burst when ganking. Cata into Rod assumes a longer game, and is also a good choice if you're against a laner who can beat you if you derp/they got strong junglers or champs that just gonna go for you in teamfights. As ever, it's a question of what works best with your teamcomp and vs theirs.

[Omega Supreme]

So, question. Is going an early Tears worthwhile on Cassiopeia? She spams so much when she hits 6 it seems like a great idea, especially since with RoA you have to wait 10 minutes for it to fully charge.

Also what matchups should I be worried about playing her? I know I should fear Kassadin and maybe Morgana. But those two are p. much permabans if not firstpicked.

[Voulture]

I don't think any of those two are good on her. 2 dorans + mp5 runes should cover most of your needs, just clear all waves with spells before you get your blue. I dont like RoA on her, it takes too much time to be worth it when cass dominate early and midgame so hard. What you want from your item is: survive long enough to kill and no this is not a joke, she is all about dots, you need that spellwamp and hps, keep enemy on leash - q speedup + w slow is usually not enough against champs with mobility + flash thus rylai, just after those 2 are met you get AP.

She is actually very easy to play "macro", when you get lue you just push your lane to tower and go kill bot or top. If you cant do that, steal wright camps. W and fast Q to give you vision + posion all of them, E to finish big one. Second Q to finish small ones. Need a bit of pratice but works amazingly well :)

She can lane against everyone. Kass is standard, you rape him till he got blue, than you could try to outpush him. Morgana is easy, you push faster and harder. She can't touch you.

Ergo:
2 dorans, tier 2 boots (sorc), hextech revolver, rylai/deathcap depending.

[Omega Supreme]

When I do Doran into Deathcap, I normally pick up WOTA + Rylai + Void Staff. Zhonya too if they're doing a good job of focusing me.

[Voulture]

Yeah but point is cass don't really need deathcap. Just 2 dorans into hextech gun or wota into rylai. This is core. After that if you can, do get deathcap, sooner doesnt really work for you.

[Zekk Pacus]

Thing with cass is she got so much burst early game, all you need as voult says is hps and regen to survive any counter burst. Thus double dorans + wota + rylai is core.

About tear:

Tear is a bit of a trap. Tear looks like a great item - gives you loads of mana and be upgraded into an item with a hefty amount of AP/AD depending on champ. However, it takes forever to stack - assuming you cast ability every 3s, it takes 12.5min to stack. Compare to rod which takes 10min to stack and gives you HP and regen from passive too. AAS then costs some gold and only becomes as gold efficient as needlessly large rod in terms of AP/gold at 3100mana or thereabouts. You don't need it, if you need regen get Catalyst, if you still need regen bitch out jungler for not giving you blue.

[Raxxman]

Thing with cass is she got so much burst early game, all you need as voult says is hps and regen to survive any counter burst. Thus double dorans + wota + rylai is core.

About tear:

Tear is a bit of a trap. Tear looks like a great item - gives you loads of mana and be upgraded into an item with a hefty amount of AP/AD depending on champ. However, it takes forever to stack - assuming you cast ability every 3s, it takes 12.5min to stack. Compare to rod which takes 10min to stack and gives you HP and regen from passive too. AAS then costs some gold and only becomes as gold efficient as needlessly large rod in terms of AP/gold at 3100mana or thereabouts. You don't need it, if you need regen get Catalyst, if you still need regen bitch out jungler for not giving you blue.

that said, tear/aa frozen heart is a good tanky bruiser build for someone like swain who is made to go in first

[FourFiftyFour]

Thing with cass is she got so much burst early game, all you need as voult says is hps and regen to survive any counter burst. Thus double dorans + wota + rylai is core.

About tear:

Tear is a bit of a trap. Tear looks like a great item - gives you loads of mana and be upgraded into an item with a hefty amount of AP/AD depending on champ. However, it takes forever to stack - assuming you cast ability every 3s, it takes 12.5min to stack. Compare to rod which takes 10min to stack and gives you HP and regen from passive too. AAS then costs some gold and only becomes as gold efficient as needlessly large rod in terms of AP/gold at 3100mana or thereabouts. You don't need it, if you need regen get Catalyst, if you still need regen bitch out jungler for not giving you blue.

I'm a strong advocate of Tear on Karthus because of his Q. With Tear and then AAS, my end game mana is endless. I have to forget to turn off defile to ever run out.

[filingo]

tear is easy to charge on karthus and he gobbles mana so its not a bad call tbh

[Mendolorian Girl]

Thing with cass is she got so much burst early game, all you need as voult says is hps and regen to survive any counter burst. Thus double dorans + wota + rylai is core.

About tear:

Tear is a bit of a trap. Tear looks like a great item - gives you loads of mana and be upgraded into an item with a hefty amount of AP/AD depending on champ. However, it takes forever to stack - assuming you cast ability every 3s, it takes 12.5min to stack. Compare to rod which takes 10min to stack and gives you HP and regen from passive too. AAS then costs some gold and only becomes as gold efficient as needlessly large rod in terms of AP/gold at 3100mana or thereabouts. You don't need it, if you need regen get Catalyst, if you still need regen bitch out jungler for not giving you blue.

Tear is only really useful on champions that can spam at least one low mana ability every second or 2. Karthus is particularly good for this because not only can he spam Q, but as long as he kills with it, it's pretty much free. I find it very good on Sona too, can charge it uber-rapidly with her and it lets her spam skills late game. Detracts a bit from the GP5 items, but I think it's worthwhile.

[Kanv]

Played against a Karthus who ended game with 5 AAs and a Rabaddon. I thought that AAs wouldn't stack with each other?

[Herschel Yamamoto]

Played against a Karthus who ended game with 5 AAs and a Rabaddon. I thought that AAs wouldn't stack with each other?

The 1k mana doesn't stack, but the 3% mana->AP conversion does. That is the highest possible AP build in the game - even if you have no runes/masteries whatsoever, you get 1310 AP with Karthus using that build.

(More likely, it was a troll build where he sold all his stuff to buy some items that would look hilarious at endgame, but it's not totally insane)

[Raxxman]

Played against a Karthus who ended game with 5 AAs and a Rabaddon. I thought that AAs wouldn't stack with each other?

The 1k mana doesn't stack, but the 3% mana->AP conversion does. That is the highest possible AP build in the game - even if you have no runes/masteries whatsoever, you get 1310 AP with Karthus using that build.

(More likely, it was a troll build where he sold all his stuff to buy some items that would look hilarious at endgame, but it's not totally insane)


Noob build,

4 AAs Rabadons void staff.

Defile absolutely rapes like that

[Spaztick]

AP isn't all it's cracked up to be without MPen too. A void staff or abyssal scepter will do you more good than that 5th AA. Still you can get some great damage with Ryze like that.

[cullnean]

how do you chaps go about CSing with kassadin in the face of constant fucking poke from there mid?

[Zekk Pacus]

Basically, you don't. Between levels 1-5 you just don't. If they're coming into Q range, counter-poke with your Q, but pre-Riftwalk you have to play kind of passive. The fun starts at level 6 when you get Riftwalk and have some AP behind you. Their mid has to play REAL fucking cautious or risk getting riftwalked on, losing half their health, and being unable to respond while you just walk away.

[Venec]

Tips on playing Orianna?