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two step
September 9 2011, 04:38:45 PM
Had a Skype conference call with Arnar about resource allocation concerns, but the results are heavily NDA'd. We have another meeting coming soon.

Helicity
September 9 2011, 04:41:43 PM
So you had a meeting, but you can't ever tell us anything about the content, so there is a post telling us nothing so we can speculate and gnash our teeth? ;)

two step
September 9 2011, 04:44:14 PM
So you had a meeting, but you can't ever tell us anything about the content, so there is a post telling us nothing so we can speculate and gnash our teeth? ;)

That was the plan, yes...

mazzilliu
September 9 2011, 04:46:58 PM
Hey



hey guys



check this out



no really check it out



guys



guys



guys you gotta see this



guys






http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/New_York_lion_dance_lion.jpg

raaaaaaaaaarrr im a lion!

Lumy
September 9 2011, 04:52:45 PM
Cocktease...

two step
September 9 2011, 04:53:29 PM
I think that is a dragon

Dratic
September 9 2011, 04:57:08 PM
So if eve isn't getting resources what is the point in talking to the head of eve when they probably don't have any influence on getting more resources.
CCP has been using terms such as borrowing teams from other projects since apocrypha and to think eve will get more is a joke.
Csm will just be fobbed off with more promises which amount to nothing just like :18 months: :5 years:

mazzilliu
September 9 2011, 05:02:09 PM
i wonder if you guys still think there's any point in what you're doing?

i mean, the best thing you can do is forward to CCP the fact that people are pissed off.

there's been discontent for a while(even among the non crazy eve communities) about the issue of eve neglect, and if ccp don't know that by now then what else can you do anyways? shout louder?

at some point it all breaks down and it just gets to the point of "its our(ccp's) game and we can do what we want to", especially when talking about big issues like resource allocation.

i always felt like that was the case. honestly, aside from feedback about minor issues the CSM is fundamentally not equipped to deal with the issues it's been trying to deal with since at least csm 4. they aren't there day to day, they aren't "under ccp's thumb" so to speak from an employment perspective, and they don't have the full set of information available to them like an employee would have. this massively discounts anything they can contribute.

to me the CSM is something to abuse for free vacations until CCP realizes it fundamentally can't work and shuts it down. I've felt this way ever since the end of csm3 and realized that ccp can't take us seriously even if they wanted to.

Tafkat
September 9 2011, 05:03:30 PM
Had a Skype conference call with Arnar about resource allocation concerns, but the results are heavily NDA'd. We have another meeting coming soon.
was the outcome broadly positive, broadly negative, or meh?

mazzilliu
September 9 2011, 05:03:36 PM
I think that is a dragon

no it is a lion dancer

even the ass end of a lion dancer is cooler than 99% of the people in this world combined

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_dance

noobcake
September 9 2011, 05:42:28 PM
Had a Skype conference call with Arnar about resource allocation concerns, but the results are heavily NDA'd. We have another meeting coming soon.

I woke up and took a shit...the results of this meeting between my ass and the toilet are heavily NDA'd, so no more information for you! That is all

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 05:55:14 PM
Had a Skype conference call with Arnar about resource allocation concerns, but the results are heavily NDA'd. We have another meeting coming soon.

Update appreciated. It will be good to keep such meetings in public, at minimum for timeline. Important is followup. When, who, etc. Gives a spotlight on those and/or situations where followup remains absent.

FatFreddy
September 9 2011, 06:05:48 PM
I tried to make a gratin today but then something went wrong and I had a spontaneous impulse and I ended up with an awesome variant of mashed potatoes

Helicity
September 9 2011, 06:07:35 PM
jokes and internet-hardmanning-as-a-make-believe-space-terrorist aside;
i truly, sincerely hope, that you guys have not let these twits blow smoke and non-commital bullshit that they have absolutely no intent of following up on up your collective assholes.

This ridiculous situation has already lasted long enough, ccp really needs to nut up and mea culpa; and then change or they will (more swiftly than they realize) find themselves unemployed in iceland and for those who are not whale-hunters by nature this ALSO mean goodbye pension plan, since they cannot export it...

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 06:10:27 PM
jokes and internet-hardmanning-as-a-make-believe-space-terrorist aside;
i truly, sincerely hope, that you guys have not let these twits blow smoke and non-commital bullshit that they have absolutely no intent of following up on up your collective assholes.

This ridiculous situation has already lasted long enough, ccp really needs to nut up and mea culpa; and then change or they will (more swiftly than they realize) find themselves unemployed in iceland and for those who are not whale-hunters by nature this ALSO mean goodbye pension plan, since they cannot export it...

I trust they will also have similar time with Torfi. Because Torfi > Arnar on these matters. Theory != practice, and let's be honest here for a moment. Torfi is still Torfi. Even if they gave him a special watch, he still guides and decides.

two step
September 9 2011, 06:18:48 PM
jokes and internet-hardmanning-as-a-make-believe-space-terrorist aside;
i truly, sincerely hope, that you guys have not let these twits blow smoke and non-commital bullshit that they have absolutely no intent of following up on up your collective assholes.

This ridiculous situation has already lasted long enough, ccp really needs to nut up and mea culpa; and then change or they will (more swiftly than they realize) find themselves unemployed in iceland and for those who are not whale-hunters by nature this ALSO mean goodbye pension plan, since they cannot export it...

We are holding them to exactly what Hilmar told CCP to hold the players to, which is to see what they do, not what they say.

dfred
September 9 2011, 06:19:53 PM
I woke up and took a shit...the results of this meeting between my ass and the toilet are heavily NDA'd, so no more information for you! That is all

So you can't tell us if the toilet was cold or not? Also is there any plans for more WIP'ing? Was the toilet paper two-ply or is it being nerfed into that kind of paper that is almost like rice paper? You really need to clear the air on these and other (t)issues.

Leboe
September 9 2011, 06:20:21 PM
We are holding them to exactly what Hilmar told CCP to hold the players to, which is to see what they do, not what they say.


if theres one good thing that came out of hilmar's letter, its this and the ability to use it on CCP

Nordstern
September 9 2011, 06:22:17 PM
...but the results are heavily NDA'd... Then why did you make this thread?

Tropic9
September 9 2011, 06:34:03 PM
Then why did you make this thread?
Because that's what being in the CSM is all about m8. Attention whoring.

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 06:35:28 PM
Then why did you make this thread?

While this update here in its own right does not do much, if it is a start in spotlighting CCP's actions vs inactions over time, with reporting over followup or absence of, with naming and general topics, that is exactly one of those things CCP reacts to.

Scroll back to CSM5 days, where this was admittedly more structured due to regular meetings with raw logs and minutes, but once there was a visible (public) presence of CCP's "words vs actions" (especially by name + position) it give an enormous boost to being able to give credit where credit was due, but also to point to where shit failed. Up until the moment where Hammer and Torfi went pants down with Incarna during a session and went :fearless: it was one of the best working instruments in all CSM terms sofar.

Helicity
September 9 2011, 06:51:38 PM
While this update here in its own right does not do much, if it is a start in spotlighting CCP's actions vs inactions over time, with reporting over followup or absence of, with naming and general topics, that is exactly one of those things CCP reacts to.

Scroll back to CSM5 days, where this was admittedly more structured due to regular meetings with raw logs and minutes, but once there was a visible (public) presence of CCP's "words vs actions" (especially by name + position) it give an enormous boost to being able to give credit where credit was due, but also to point to where shit failed. Up until the moment where Hammer and Torfi went pants down with Incarna during a session and went :fearless: it was one of the best working instruments in all CSM terms sofar.

I think you are being unduly positive, and are holding on to some hope of improvement, which at this juncture seems to me to be a quick path to yet another disappointment.

definatelynotKKassandra
September 9 2011, 07:05:11 PM
Then why did you make this thread?

I, for one, am grateful he made this thread. This sort of thing is vital in maintaining the playerbase's confidence in the CSM, and it is that mandate that gives them the small amount of leverage / ability to influence CCP that they possess. I hope that two step et al are capable of ignoring these kind of unhelpful comments and maintaining this kind of communivcation effort (along with the recent surge in blog posting, comments on forums etc etc).

Clearly I would rather have detail about what was discussed, but we have to live in the real world.

Plus, I like threads.

a mitten
September 9 2011, 07:23:52 PM
I think you are being unduly positive, and are holding on to some hope of improvement, which at this juncture seems to me to be a quick path to yet another disappointment.

I'm backing off the media pressure after the meeting and am cautiously optimistic. Take that for what you will.

Hint: it wasn't "CCP threatened me", like some drooler on eve-o suggested.

Helicity
September 9 2011, 07:25:59 PM
I'm backing off the media pressure after the meeting and am cautiously optimistic. Take that for what you will.

Hint: it wasn't "CCP threatened me", like some drooler on eve-o suggested.

Contrary to most people here, I wouldnt believe you'd yield to that anyways. I just find it hard to believe anything they say when they have demonstrably lied to our faces over and over.

a mitten
September 9 2011, 07:28:20 PM
Contrary to most people here, I wouldnt believe you'd yield to that anyways. I just find it hard to believe anything they say when they have demonstrably lied to our faces over and over.

True enough. Good thing I'm ~the fucking spymaster~, and never take verbiage from someone in management at face value without backchannel confirmations of veracity.

Helicity
September 9 2011, 07:35:00 PM
True enough. Good thing I'm ~the fucking spymaster~, and never take verbiage from someone in management at face value without backchannel confirmations of veracity.

I'm just a rabble-rouser, and according to my contact inside, something of a minor satan to some levels of ccp :P

However only time will tell if your backchannel isnt being fed bullshit for breakfast as well.

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 07:36:50 PM
True enough. Good thing I'm ~the fucking spymaster~, and never take verbiage from someone in management at face value without backchannel confirmations of veracity.

Yeah, that has worked wonders in preventing a fair few months of :CCP: drama that was completely preventable :P Might want to upgrade your Bothans

Back serious, as that was too easy an open door, would it not be an idea from here on to no longer call these things "meeting minutes", but say, reports?


Considering how easy it is for people to get expectations based on what they are familiar with in real life, which very often is very different from the definitions CCP attaches to concepts, something as simple as a different word to use might prevent false expectations from developing. And thus confusion and disappointment. I understand full well that these "meeting minutes" are a result of a long process between CCP and CSM, but it is moving ever further away from it.

Calling it a report might be better. That would probably also fit in in more easily for people's perceptions with spotlighting as a method.

two step
September 9 2011, 07:39:16 PM
Then why did you make this thread?

Because people yell at the CSM for not telling them what we do, so I thought it would be fun to get yelled at for the stuff we do.

Feel free to add me to your ignore list if you would not like to get information in the future.

Pattern
September 9 2011, 07:40:46 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kaUaREbP7Fs/TeBdsTfD-SI/AAAAAAAAAfs/EGZqep9clMc/s1600/The-Return-of-the-King.jpg

Or too soon?

Pattern
September 9 2011, 07:44:30 PM
Also, what next? Was planning on writing an article or giving an interview or something, seems like your standing down???

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 07:45:01 PM
I'm just a rabble-rouser, and according to my contact inside, something of a minor satan to some levels of ccp :P

However only time will tell if your backchannel isnt being fed bullshit for breakfast as well.

Folks feeding folks bullshit inside a company? That I cannot imagine.

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 07:46:45 PM
Also, what next? Was planning on writing an article or giving an interview or something, seems like your standing down???

Media wise it's hit the limits of what is attainable at the moment. No point in expediting further energy on that, better switch to virtual politics and call it a win.

Evelgrivion
September 9 2011, 07:48:15 PM
I'm not sure what a meeting with Arnar is supposed to accomplish when Hilmar is still giving Torfifrans free reign to continue skull-fucking the game. What is there to gain in an NDA'd meeting with a man who was already on the same page as the playerbase with regards to developing spaceships but has no say in the matter?

Pattern
September 9 2011, 07:49:17 PM
*blocked*

Pattern
September 9 2011, 07:54:23 PM
Arnar, Hilmar, Torfi, I've met all these people before but have never been clear on their roles, history and relevance. Torfi is senior/lead producer right?

And beyond that, how much of a say do investors or major share holders (if eve has any) have other resources or timetables? As is often the case, these guys could be bent over the barrel by *external factors* or agreements they've formally or informally made.

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 08:01:12 PM
I'm not sure what a meeting with Arnar is supposed to accomplish when Hilmar is still giving Torfifrans free reign to continue skull-fucking the game. What is there to gain in an NDA'd meeting with a man who was already on the same page as the playerbase with regards to developing spaceships but has no say in the matter?

Fair point. But CCP has done position changes in the past, with some lessons learned. Ask Seleene, he probably knows best though I'm not sure how much he can comment on the specifics. I vaguely recall a blog entry from him, or an interview? Not sure.

But you are right, Creative Director has a hell of a lot of managerial sway at CCP, and we cannot forget the examples of how CCP's lobby mechanisms have mutilated an endless stream of projects over the years. Or how both Hammer and Torfi spun the presence of an Incarna roadmap and vision statement up until CSM5 managed to find out that they had nothing up until that point.

Still, these are dire circumstances, and we can say what we will about CCP, but the chokepoints are few. Powerful yes, but few. I cannot discount the possibility that lessons are being learned, even if that goes very gradually. Whether that is the case, we can only learn from CSM as CCP doesn't comment on such changes.

Personally I hope that lessons are learned. We just don't know, and unfortunately unless CSM manages to knock some heads together with people like Torfi there is no reliable information stream from staff to them to provide a guarantee that changes in these matters are or will be taking place.

Evelgrivion
September 9 2011, 08:01:43 PM
Arnar, Hilmar, Torfi, I've met all these people before but have never been clear on their roles, history and relevance. Torfi is senior/lead producer right?

And beyond that, how much of a say do investors or major share holders (if eve has any) have other resources or timetables? As is often the case, these guys could be bent over the barrel by *external factors* or agreements they've formally or informally made.

Hilmar = CEO of CCP
Torfifrans = Guy who says "guys, this shit will be cool and make CCP look awesome, we're going to spend our resources doing THAT!"
Arnar = "Okay guys, I've been given these resources to work with and these goals to meet, lets see about getting them done"

Pattern
September 9 2011, 08:02:14 PM
@ArnarHrafn: Planning something truly epic.

2 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®

:ohnoes:

Virtuozzo
September 9 2011, 08:04:04 PM
@ArnarHrafn: Planning something truly epic.

2 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®

:ohnoes:

lolyep.

Helicity
September 9 2011, 08:07:32 PM
lolyep.

I am waiting to be wow-ed, nothing else will suffice at this point.

Evelgrivion
September 9 2011, 08:08:23 PM
Arnar uses twitter for more than talking about EVE; It might just be a large barbeque with lots of drinking involved. You'll note that no EVE Online related hashtags are in that tweet.

Marlona Sky
September 9 2011, 08:21:56 PM
+1

That is until there is actual content to this thread.

Evelgrivion
September 9 2011, 08:28:41 PM
As I tweeted to Seleene,


@Seleene_EVE Until @ArnarHrafn is given the power of resource allocation, nothing will change; Team Awesome is playing by the same book as usual, and is looking to do whatever looks like it will calm down the rage without actually changing any plans whatsoever. Unless there is a tangible result involving a tangible change in direction with a tangible timeline for those development changes placed on your desktops, you can't assume anything other than the same stupid fucking bullshit business as usual. Don't let yourselves get played - that goes to the CSM and Arnar alike.

Helicity
September 9 2011, 08:33:17 PM
perhaps it's just time we called em for what they are though, virt's hopeful blahblah (presumably because he has some stake in the business itself) aside:

Liars, thieves, con artists and the idiots that work for them, boiler-room style.

There is no dealing "in good faith" with with people that simply aren't.

Steph
September 9 2011, 08:35:35 PM
We are holding them to exactly what Hilmar told CCP to hold the players to, which is to see what they do, not what they say.

Well played sir. Well played.

+1 internet for you

Xiang Jiao
September 9 2011, 08:57:08 PM
I'm backing off the media pressure after the meeting and am cautiously optimistic. Take that for what you will.

This may sound naive of me to say as I don't rightly understand the CSM process, but maybe the council should address why it requires focused media attention just to have a meeting with Arnar - once, during the emergency summit after the Incarna riots, and again today via Skype after you applied the required media pressure with MMORPG.com and Eurogamer. I am unaware if you interact more casually and frequently with the inner circle crew, but why is it so much of a hassle to get their attention and achieve productive results?

FatFreddy
September 9 2011, 09:06:48 PM
perhaps it's just time we called em for what they are though, virt's hopeful blahblah (presumably because he has some stake in the business itself) aside:

Liars, thieves, con artists and the idiots that work for them, boiler-room style.

There is no dealing "in good faith" with with people that simply aren't.

Damn you are still so mad

two step
September 9 2011, 09:08:56 PM
This may sound naive of me to say as I don't rightly understand the CSM process, but maybe the council should address why it requires focused media attention just to have a meeting with Arnar - once, during the emergency summit after the Incarna riots, and again today via Skype after you applied the required media pressure with MMORPG.com and Eurogamer. I am unaware if you interact more casually and frequently with the inner circle crew, but why is it so much of a hassle to get their attention and achieve productive results?

Before the Incarna release, Arnar used to hang out on Skype more and chat with us, though not always about EVE related stuff. This meeting was more of a big deal because of the stuff that was said, which you will all find out about eventually.

Arele
September 9 2011, 09:15:27 PM
So another SOON™. Is that going to be e.summit meeting notes style SOON™?

noobcake
September 9 2011, 09:17:20 PM
@ArnarHrafn: Planning something truly epic.

2 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®

:ohnoes:


another "watch what they say, not what they do" email...only he's gunna leak it

Nordstern
September 9 2011, 09:20:29 PM
Maybe I should run, then.

Evelgrivion
September 9 2011, 09:22:25 PM
Before the Incarna release, Arnar used to hang out on Skype more and chat with us, though not always about EVE related stuff. This meeting was more of a big deal because of the stuff that was said, which you will all find out about eventually.

Unless it's about Torfifrans being stripped of resource allocation powers and or defenestrated, Arnar is just being played.

Leboe
September 9 2011, 09:40:42 PM
its pretty apparent that the media is the only thing that makes CCP move


Therefore I claim full responsability for the creation of team gridlock (they quoted my email word for word last summer) kotaku link (http://kotaku.com/5599803/eve-solicits-player-support-players-solicit-lag-fix)

Jester
September 9 2011, 09:50:53 PM
So another SOON™.
We need an emote graphic for this-- owait, I forgot we already have one.

:psyccp:

I'm trying to imagine what Arnar could have said that would cool all your jets like this, given past history. Those that say Mittens needs upgraded Bothans inside CCP are unfortunately absolutely correct. I can't count the number of times the CSM was forced into saying "CCP didn't tell us they were going to do this" over the summer, and yet one meeting on Skype makes it all better? Really?

Trebor Daehdoow
September 9 2011, 10:17:36 PM
I'm trying to imagine what Arnar could have said that would cool all your jets like this, given past history.

Why, something awesome, of course!

Traxio Nacho
September 9 2011, 10:51:35 PM
If I understand this right Arnar is very much on the side of the average Eve player and wants to change Eve for the better but he really doesn't have the resource or authority to do it and is just over ruled by the cock jocks at CCP that just see $$$ in their eyes?

bobgainsfield
September 9 2011, 11:18:50 PM
Well, honestly I don't know that we can expect too much... the media exposure wasn't exactly stellar nor did it really lean towards the CSM's viewpoint. And I think we all know CCP likes to laugh at the Forum Whine Index charts. But we'll remain guardedly... ehh, let's be honest... we'll just wait. It's not like it matters either way.

Hopefully you were able to get your viewpoint across to the guy who's in theory already on our side, and he can explain to the people that matter that they should focus more time on FiS. Hell, I'd think one guy pushing one item off the 'little things' list in the next month would be better than what we've had recently.

Shitposting aside, thanks kindly for making the effort and letting us know about it. At least that much is a vast improvement from where we've been.

a mitten
September 10 2011, 12:54:36 AM
If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded. The goal is to save the game, not obliterate it.

bobgainsfield
September 10 2011, 02:05:12 AM
If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded. The goal is to save the game, not obliterate it.

Very true... unless you wander over to Eve-O, where they're probably screaming to have someone hung in effigy... dunno, couldn't deal with more than a page or two of that particular thread.

Hopefully this also gives time to let the media stuff shake itself out, you guys can come up with a tighter strategy next time around as well. The leaked CEO Update was sorta... silly... as a media thrust, even an unintentional one. Although thumb's up for the buffers you guys stuck into your media efforts, just in case CCP changed their minds you could easily step back.

Ab Tallen
September 10 2011, 09:29:28 AM
If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded. The goal is to save the game, not obliterate it.
You can play that game only a couple of times - while your first "leaked" statement was somewhat newsworthy, the third won't be. And CCP will steer back on their initial course as soon as they've ridden off the current wave, as they have done before. But hey, I don't know what was said, so maybe it's not all :psycsm: + :psyccp: = :psyduck: :psyduck:

Dodgy Past
September 10 2011, 10:15:30 AM
If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded. The goal is to save the game, not obliterate it.Being prepared to ratfuck the players seems to be a necessary requirement to reach the inner circle in CCP. When is that going to change?

Zavior
September 10 2011, 10:33:08 AM
http://i53.tinypic.com/18f8gj.png


i want to be a dragon

a mitten
September 10 2011, 06:20:27 PM
Very true... unless you wander over to Eve-O, where they're probably screaming to have someone hung in effigy... dunno, couldn't deal with more than a page or two of that particular thread.

Hopefully this also gives time to let the media stuff shake itself out, you guys can come up with a tighter strategy next time around as well. The leaked CEO Update was sorta... silly... as a media thrust, even an unintentional one. Although thumb's up for the buffers you guys stuck into your media efforts, just in case CCP changed their minds you could easily step back.

The CEO Update worked out quite well in practice, but I flat-out underestimated my celebrity so tactically it kicked things off prematurely. We made the best of it.

I suspect that even if the campaign had launched as planned with a formal CSM Spotlight, the discourse would have still devolved to "Mittens vs Hilmar" because humans invariably personalize politics when it comes to groups clashing. My favorite example of this is the US Congress, where as far as the media is concerned the Senate and House both have 2 humans each - Pelosi vs Boehner, McConnell vs Reid. CSM vs CCP is a group against a group, and my personal views are in lockstep with the rest of the CSM, but due to human nature it becomes MITTENS MITTENS MITTENS inside of moments.

a mitten
September 10 2011, 06:22:05 PM
You can play that game only a couple of times - while your first "leaked" statement was somewhat newsworthy, the third won't be. And CCP will steer back on their initial course as soon as they've ridden off the current wave, as they have done before. But hey, I don't know what was said, so maybe it's not all :psycsm: + :psyccp: = :psyduck: :psyduck:

Dunno, who here has run a guerilla media campaign for player's rights against an international gaming corporation before? Anyone else with some experience who'd like to give me some hard-won advice?

Anyone?

So far, 'Rules for Radicals' has been the most useful handbook.

a mitten
September 10 2011, 06:25:20 PM
We need an emote graphic for this-- owait, I forgot we already have one.

:psyccp:

I'm trying to imagine what Arnar could have said that would cool all your jets like this, given past history. Those that say Mittens needs upgraded Bothans inside CCP are unfortunately absolutely correct. I can't count the number of times the CSM was forced into saying "CCP didn't tell us they were going to do this" over the summer, and yet one meeting on Skype makes it all better? Really?

"All better"? Perhaps you're reading fantasy squiggle words that I didn't write. Your LAWN is showing.

Steph
September 10 2011, 07:34:46 PM
Mittens is too cool to use the Edit button. :popcorn:

bobgainsfield
September 10 2011, 07:45:14 PM
The CEO Update worked out quite well in practice, but I flat-out underestimated my celebrity so tactically it kicked things off prematurely. We made the best of it.

Sadly because of the silly NDA, and CCP's desperate clinging need to hide behind it like a lead security blanket we won't know for a while... but hopefully it all works out for the better. Shit, it's not like things can get worse.

When the Dev's of a Sci-Fi Flying in Space sorta game start sinking time into making fashion catwalks for fashion designers you know there's not much lower the bar can go. And as has been pointed out on FHC recently... when a major headline from the latest expansion was done in someone's free time... well... yah.

Jester
September 10 2011, 07:49:47 PM
"All better"? Perhaps you're reading fantasy squiggle words that I didn't write. Your LAWN is showing.
You seem to be the one that called off the media assault before it even got going properly.

But sure, I'll stick to a "yes" or "no" question: did Arnar give CSM6 a solid, believable indication that there will be new spaceship-related game-play in the winter expansion?

Since you seem to be calling off the media assault, the answer to this question must be "yes", amirite?~

(P.S. I'm no longer in LAWN. I have no plans to return.)

two step
September 10 2011, 08:09:23 PM
You seem to be the one that called off the media assault before it even got going properly.

But sure, I'll stick to a "yes" or "no" question: did Arnar give CSM6 a solid, believable indication that there will be new spaceship-related game-play in the winter expansion?

Since you seem to be calling off the media assault, the answer to this question must be "yes", amirite?~

(P.S. I'm no longer in LAWN. I have no plans to return.)

NDA

Jester
September 10 2011, 08:14:54 PM
NDA
Hint: if the answer to that question was "yes", the proper CSM response to Arnar was: "Sounds good. As soon as you devblog it, we'll lay off.", not "We'll lay off now because everything you've verbally promised the players has always come to fruition, so I'll go hop in my T3 frigate and do some comet mining now."

bobgainsfield
September 10 2011, 08:17:45 PM
So far we have Meissa, Mittani, Two Step, and a few other CSM delegates (sorry -- can't be bothered to gather all the names) claiming to have had a meeting with one CCP manager, and claiming that good stuff was talked about, and claiming that we'll hear about it, eventually, maybe. 138 posts and 7+ hours later, and not a single CCP person has chimed to confirm even the most basic of facts; like even the meeting occurred, much less that anything substantial was discussed or that anything will be the result of it or even the vaguest of indications when. I predict that none will be forthcoming in the next several days either, seeing as CCP is incapable of staffing for the weekend.

Face it CSM: CCP has absolutely no respect for you, and by extension no respect for the players. They're just trolling you. Quelle surprise

MDD

This is a very fair point. Thanks for bringing it up.

I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.

Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation. Sorry dads I am disappoint.

However, for what it's worth, as an EVE player I can say that I am wet-my-pants-silly-happy about where the meeting content is headed. Yes, this was a preliminary meeting, but it was absolutely positively necessarily so. That does put the CSM temporarily in a bit of a tough spot, but eh, they were elected to be in that tough spot and kinda campaigned to be there.

I'll get it out of the way here. This meeting was not about ponies. Sorry guys.

One of my main takeaways from the meeting (and my dealings with them separate from the meeting) is that the CSM will not be distracted from their stated mission. Their tactical use of a mini-PR campaign is a testament to that. Their immediate first responses to stuff Zulu had to say also speaks volumes to their undeterrability. They haven't "called a truce" or been sated.. yet. See Mittani's Red Meat comments in this thread. Their questions were myriad and delivered stalwartly. Also, they haven't been threatened with the NDA wagged in front of their faces. They have stood quite firm in their priorities--and are very much of the mind of many of you that it's going to be "watch what we do" .

They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters. If the preliminary meeting didn't smell of enough Red Meat, I severely doubt they would be here at all. We didn't try to convince them to speak to you guys.

Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=41145#post41145

If we could get a second take-away lesson learned for CCP... maybe someone will let them know someday, far off in the future, that the forum rabble really doesn't like this stupid NDA shit? I'm quite sure you guys mention it every damn time you meet with CCP, but they really like to hide behind the NDA a lot.

In other non-related news... Fuck the Eve-O forums... seriously. They may be new and shiny, but the signal/noise ratio there horribad.

Steph
September 10 2011, 08:26:06 PM
Wait wait

The NDA prevents you from saying whether or not CCP is committed to doing the things the CSM has just lobbied them to do?

Sounds to me like we should assume the worst.

Virtuozzo
September 10 2011, 08:34:00 PM
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=41145#post41145

If we could get a second take-away lesson learned for CCP... maybe someone will let them know someday, far off in the future, that the forum rabble really doesn't like this stupid NDA shit? In other non-related news... Fuck the Eve-O forums... seriously. They may be new and shiny, but the signal/noise ratio there horribad.

The moment this CSM, unlike the previous one, chose to accept the NDA flag beyond the part of proprietary information is the moment any CSM lost the ability to deal with such a case. I agree, the NDA flag has become too dominant, far too dominant than productive even. Most of the time, its use is not what it is intended for, but something far beyond that scope. Which leads directly to causing frustrations.

The question is whether CCP is aware of how this causes frustrations, and to what degree this serves them. It's become long clear that the excessive pulling of the NDA card started with select individuals responsible for a lot of damage feeling threatened. Taking things into excess, well, extremes are never good in the long run.


Either way, sofar we only have words stating that words were given. 3 months to figure out that chosen methods only resulted in CCP walking away with the chair's chosen methods, making these work for them rather than what they were intended for.

On the bright side, while there has not been a real media offensive at this point, it has been a good test case and excercise. It does show that the weak point remains public exposure. That is a shame, but it is also good.


Thing is, until there are guaranteed changes on the authority over resource allocations, and the mandates on planning and maintaining access to required resources, all that we see sofar is pretty much the same events as during the case of the Pendulum.

Traxio Nacho
September 10 2011, 09:05:27 PM
If I understand this right Arnar is very much on the side of the average Eve player and wants to change Eve for the better but he really doesn't have the resource or authority to do it and is just over ruled by the cock jocks at CCP that just see $$$ in their eyes?

Anyone able to answer that?

Mynxee
September 10 2011, 09:23:41 PM
Thing is, until there are guaranteed changes on the authority over resource allocations, and the mandates on planning and maintaining access to required resources, all that we see sofar is pretty much the same events as during the case of the Pendulum.

Should we, in the best possible case, for example, be informed that CCP has suddenly decided to shift a metric shit ton of development resources from NEx/Incarna/WoD to FiS EVE, the community needs to demand regular progress updates from either CSM or CCP or both because no one would believe the shift actually happened unless evidence in the form of progress reports and ultimately desired game changes are presented. Hopefully CSM is getting its ducks in a row to identify and track the accountability points regardless of whatever the promising-but-NDA topic discussed with Arnar is. No more just taking CCP at its word; they haven't proved trustworthy in these things. They require a watchdog and that is part of the CSM's role.

All that said, once we do get the news about whatever is being discussed, I sure hope it is directly related to improving FiS EVE. Nothing else will suffice to pull CCP's ass out of the fire.

bobgainsfield
September 10 2011, 09:25:04 PM
Anyone able to answer that?

[tinfoil]It's also possible the CSM insisted the conversation be NDA'ed because he started talking about $1000 Japanese designer jeans.[\tinfoil]

Gix Tyrionn
September 10 2011, 09:28:08 PM
Wait wait

The NDA prevents you from saying whether or not CCP is committed to doing the things the CSM has just lobbied them to do?

Sounds to me like we should assume the worst.

Generally speaking when the best thing you can do is elect the lobbyists then unsub you should assume the worst.

XenosisReaper
September 10 2011, 09:31:18 PM
The CEO Update worked out quite well in practice, but I flat-out underestimated my celebrity so tactically it kicked things off prematurely. We made the best of it.

I suspect that even if the campaign had launched as planned with a formal CSM Spotlight, the discourse would have still devolved to "Mittens vs Hilmar" because humans invariably personalize politics when it comes to groups clashing. My favorite example of this is the US Congress, where as far as the media is concerned the Senate and House both have 2 humans each - Pelosi vs Boehner, McConnell vs Reid. CSM vs CCP is a group against a group, and my personal views are in lockstep with the rest of the CSM, but due to human nature it becomes MITTENS MITTENS MITTENS inside of moments.

Could your ego be any bigger? Seriously.

Pattern
September 10 2011, 09:38:57 PM
In before *expectations management*.

Player base, be greatful that such news has been communicated at all.

Two step for CSM tbh. And :facepalm: at all those still deriding the CSM.

bundus
September 10 2011, 09:40:49 PM
I wonder how many PLEX it takes to fly the csm to ccpland?

Traxio Nacho
September 10 2011, 09:42:26 PM
I wonder how many PLEX it takes to fly the csm to ccpland?

Probably had to implement 7 new hats in the NEx store to cover it :p

Kate Yeats
September 10 2011, 09:43:24 PM
CCP and the CSM just don't fucking get it.

Some 'wet-my-pants' promise of forthcoming FiS content is meaningless. On paper Incarna rocks, hell the concept videos rocked.

Yes, lack of FiS content is a problem, but the major one is the company's attitude, lack of iteration, horrific QA and commitment to mediocrity.

Short of Hilmar and the exec team heading to the job center on Monday, I can't see what they could have done on such a short time scale to fix this.

I rather suspect there's been some promise to add a new team, have them add some new FiS content and cite it as CCP's continued devotion to their playerbase and the CSM's feedback.

CSM will once again wait for players to set light to New Eden before taking action.

Virtuozzo
September 10 2011, 10:30:06 PM
Could your ego be any bigger? Seriously.

Hehee, if you think that's fun bait, wait until he hurf blurf rolls up CSM7 :lol:

two step
September 10 2011, 11:46:30 PM
If I understand this right Arnar is very much on the side of the average Eve player and wants to change Eve for the better but he really doesn't have the resource or authority to do it and is just over ruled by the cock jocks at CCP that just see $$$ in their eyes?

Anyone able to answer that?

We used to think that, but our views on Arnar have not improved since the emergency summit. He has a lot of power at CCP, though it isn't totally clear to us just how much.

noobcake
September 11 2011, 01:37:12 AM
We used to think that, but our views on Arnar have not improved since the emergency summit. He has a lot of power at CCP, though it isn't totally clear to us just how much.

so then why is the CSM so enamored by the meeting they had with him...including yourself

bundus
September 11 2011, 02:13:36 AM
Hehee, if you think that's fun bait, wait until he hurf blurf rolls up CSM7 :lol:

You heard it here first folks, he is just in it to troll and ride the wave.

Xiang Jiao
September 11 2011, 07:39:28 AM
They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters. If the preliminary meeting didn't smell of enough Red Meat, I severely doubt they would be here at all. We didn't try to convince them to speak to you guys.

And not a single fuck was given...

Trebor Daehdoow
September 11 2011, 10:40:10 AM
The moment this CSM, unlike the previous one, chose to accept the NDA flag beyond the part of proprietary information is the moment any CSM lost the ability to deal with such a case.

Virt, I love you baby, but you're talking out of your ass here. I could say more, but... NDA...

Traxio Nacho
September 11 2011, 10:47:48 AM
Virt, I love you baby, but you're talking out of your ass here. I could say more, but... NDA...

You can't not agree with Virt when every other post by a CSM ends in sorry but NDA......

Marlona Sky
September 11 2011, 11:41:13 AM
Can we get a psyduck holding up a NDA sign now?

Sorry Trebor, it's just that NDA gets thrown around so much, it gets old. It reminds me of when your debating with someone else and when they don't have anything left they toss out the 'u mad?' meme like it is some ace up their sleeve and they automatically won the debate. I never understood that...

Pattern
September 11 2011, 11:51:03 AM
Why are you guys behaving like brats? If you can't get excited about CCP at least acknowledging this issue then fair enough, but attacking the CSM for not telling you what they can't tell you is silly.

Mind, even if they gave you full disclosure you'd somehow find a way to use it to beat them over the head with it. Essentially, take pride in the fact that they are doing what they can and provoking a response. In the end, no matter what the CCP or CSM say or do now, we'll only be satisfied by the results 6-12 later.

Steph
September 11 2011, 11:58:46 AM
Hell, the very thought of the CSM throwing "watch what they do not what they say" back in Hilmar's face should buy them at least a couple of weeks.

Mavolio
September 11 2011, 01:04:17 PM
Will be interesting to see when its announced to see if it was worth an NDA. Who are they expecting to steal their ideas? (and 90% of the time who would even want to?)

florestan
September 11 2011, 01:47:36 PM
so then why is the CSM so enamored by the meeting they had with him...including yourself
In (public choice) economics we like to view large organizations (companies, governments, ...) as driven by bureaucrats each of whom is primarily concerned with maximizing his own domain of influence (i.e. budget, employee count, ...).

If you ask the Senior Producer for EVE Online whether or not there should be more company resources allocated to the development of "his" product (which is now competing with 2-3 other projects at the company level - Carbon/Core technology, DUST and WoD) you are bound to find some level of agreement.

bobgainsfield
September 11 2011, 01:55:08 PM
You can't not agree with Virt when every other post by a CSM ends in sorry but NDA......

Oh
My
God

Virt and Bart for CSM7.

I can see it now... no more FHC wall o' text posts, all we could see would be "Sorry guys... NDA"

Fark, half the forum would re-sub to cast a vote!




kidding, kidding... I actually like both of your posting styles.

XenosisReaper
September 11 2011, 02:28:28 PM
‎"Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it."- Martin Luther King Jr.

Ten years ago the world suffered because of the actions of a few very evil men. Today, in deep reflection, we focus instead on the undefeatable power of love.

:psyccp:

kyrieee
September 11 2011, 02:42:15 PM
Hell, the very thought of the CSM throwing "watch what they do not what they say" back in Hilmar's face should buy them at least a couple of weeks.

I bet CCP's idea of action instead of words is spelling out "NDA" with their bodies

Maximillian
September 11 2011, 02:51:15 PM
So swapping CSM5 for CSM6 was like swapping Captain Edward Smith for Captain Joseph Hazelwood.

Virtuozzo
September 11 2011, 02:51:42 PM
I bet CCP's idea of action instead of words is spelling out "NDA" with their bodies

Now that would make an awesome trailer. No? Along the lines of that HTFU one?

Xarthaginian
September 11 2011, 03:10:57 PM
I tried to make a gratin today but then something went wrong and I had a spontaneous impulse and I ended up with an awesome variant of mashed potatoes

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/willpfeifer/files/2011/08/starshiptroopers2.jpg

[x] YES
[ ] NO

Mike deVoid
September 11 2011, 03:14:53 PM
You bitter idiots are such babbies.

Xiang Jiao
September 11 2011, 04:22:39 PM
bitter babbies.

New meme?

Darius III
September 11 2011, 08:41:19 PM
You bitter idiots are such babbies.

I love Bitter Breaded Babbies. I use a Chambord sweetened custard for dipping sauce.

I would love to print up my recipe: bitter babbie, How is it formed? But obviously it wouldn't be good for me to tell everyone how to make this delicacy-it could violate the N D A.


Wouldnt it be cool if village people did a YMCA remake into Y? NDA? Or is it just the hash that makes me think so?

Steph
September 12 2011, 04:55:38 AM
Too bad Curzon Dax isn't around anymore, or I bet he'd do it.

Steph
September 12 2011, 05:59:30 PM
Go for it anyway, Bart. Then once you get to Iceland break the NDA and TELL THE WORLD THE TRUTH.

You know you want to.

Trebor Daehdoow
September 12 2011, 07:12:43 PM
One of the reasons for not going for CSM6 was that I saw that the NDA card was pulled more and more at the end of CSM5. I remember Robert telling me on this very forum that the NDA was no reason not to go for CSM5. But he probably can't comment on that now ... NDA no doubt ...

I have not found the NDA particularly onerous, and I don't think it's a reason for not running for CSM. In those instances -- relatively few -- where I think it has been overzealously applied, it's a sign that CCP is probably about to shoot itself in the foot, the ass, or both (often with the same shot), at which point I buy a big tub of :popcorn: and F5 FailHeap.

Lana Torrin
September 13 2011, 01:52:51 AM
I have not found the NDA particularly onerous, and I don't think it's a reason for not running for CSM. In those instances -- relatively few -- where I think it has been overzealously applied, it's a sign that CCP is probably about to shoot itself in the foot, the ass, or both (often with the same shot), at which point I buy a big tub of :popcorn: and F5 FailHeap.

I wonder if its against the NDA to tell us when CCP is NDAing a lot of stuff and to get ready for the incoming fail.. I mean there is possibly a chance that CCP will work out after a while that this is the case and either stop pulling the NDA card all the time or learn that when they have to NDA a lot of stuff its probably a bad idea to be doing what they are doing..

Marlona Sky
September 13 2011, 08:40:00 AM
I think it would be a much better troll for the minutes, if they did REAL minutes, then CCP took a black marker and blacked out anything they felt was NDA material.

Wonder what it would look like...

Trebor Daehdoow
September 13 2011, 09:19:34 AM
I think it would be a much better troll for the minutes, if they did REAL minutes, then CCP took a black market and blacked out anything they felt was NDA material.

Wonder what it would look like...

Like one of Virt's posts, but with all the management jargon blacked out. :twisted:

Seriously, the NDA isn't a significant issue. If it becomes one, we will let you know.

XenosisReaper
September 13 2011, 09:33:31 AM
If it took 2 months for us to release the meeting minutes of our last consultant discussion somebody would have been fired, probably more than one...

Surveyor
September 13 2011, 09:55:37 AM
Seriously, the NDA isn't a significant issue. If it becomes one, we will let you know.

Thats your perception Trebor not ours.

Evelgrivion
September 13 2011, 10:24:40 AM
Like one of Virt's posts, but with all the management jargon blacked out. :twisted:

Seriously, the NDA isn't a significant issue. If it becomes one, we will let you know.

The man looking out from the inside will inevitably have a different perspective from those on the outside and looking in. Personally, I think the blanket NDA on non-issues for the sake of image control is part and parcel to CCP's highly pre-release perception driven business methods (I'd say model, but that implies a degree of planning that I don't think really exists over there).

If you ask me the heavy handed NDA use is an issue, but is only a subset of a much larger problem.

jockothemonkey
September 13 2011, 04:31:14 PM
When you talk to them again ask what is holding up the dram/logi balance changes. It can't be QA because the obviously don't test their patches before throwing them on live.

filingo
September 13 2011, 04:51:31 PM
"i was going to post something useful and insightful but its covered by the NDA" : csm

Wrack
September 13 2011, 05:11:01 PM
Thats your perception Trebor not ours.

Trebor: I know X, and I know Y, and X-Y is not very large.

You: I only know Y, and I assert that X-Y is indeed large.

:derper:

Klesk
September 13 2011, 05:32:39 PM
"We cannot discuss this right now because of the 'Not Doing Anything' policy CCP applies to all aspects of FIS"

XenosisReaper
September 13 2011, 05:38:01 PM
INB4 Mittens "Whiners are babbies" thread on kugu

SSgtSniper
September 13 2011, 06:03:51 PM
Now that would make an awesome trailer. No? Along the lines of that HTFU one? Agreed. If CCP were to do such a thing, it would be stupid, but funny enough to make me laugh so they'd probably get away with it for like a month.

Surveyor
September 13 2011, 06:36:56 PM
Trebor: I know X, and I know Y, and X-Y is not very large.

You: I only know Y, and I assert that X-Y is indeed large.

:derper:

You might be right (very likely are) but i will point out one thing:
Perception is subjective and if you only know Y, X-Y is indeed a lot more!


To give you a little more X:
My last subs are running out and i just want to know if it pays to stay in 0.0 or if i should evac (and sell my accounts) before it happens. But hey i could have posted :NDA: right?

Traxio Nacho
September 13 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Like one of Virt's posts, but with all the management jargon blacked out. :twisted:

Seriously, the NDA isn't a significant issue. If it becomes one, we will let you know.

We really do need one of these with an NDA banner on it :psycsm: The NDA isn't an issue for the CSM but it is for the player base.

Why can't something similar to what Marlona say happen? Surely the essence of minutes is to record who was at a meeting and what was discussed, not what was discussed but heavily edited?

I know there is going to be NDA bits that need to be removed but to take 2 months it would imply stuff is being edited as promises were made to the CSM to keep them quiet and CCP have no intention of acting on.

Arele
September 13 2011, 07:46:52 PM
At this point the only option is to vote with your wallet, cancel accounts and watch from the sidelines. Nothing else will make a difference, no matter what CCP or the CSM say. If anyone is hurf durfing about any of this mess and are still willingly subscribed, then they're just an enabler to the current problems going on.

Mike deVoid
September 13 2011, 09:11:07 PM
Trebor: I know X, and I know Y, and X-Y is not very large.

You: I only know Y, and I assert that X-Y is indeed large.

:derper:

XenosisReaper
September 13 2011, 09:18:08 PM
At this point the only option is to vote with your wallet, cancel accounts and watch from the sidelines. Nothing else will make a difference, no matter what CCP or the CSM say. If anyone is hurf durfing about any of this mess and are still willingly subscribed, then they're just an enabler to the current problems going on.

The problem is that the game as it stands is still pretty fucking awesome.

If you ignore everything after Dominion Eve itself hasn't changed, so you might as well get as much fun out of it before they actually break something vital...

definatelynotKKassandra
September 13 2011, 09:29:21 PM
The problem is that the game as it stands is still pretty fucking awesome.

If you ignore everything after Dominion Eve itself hasn't changed, so you might as well get as much fun out of it before they actually break something vital...

It has lost some functionality that was minor, but irritating to lose.

And the economy and metagame evolve with time even if the mechanics stay the same. Supercaps proliferate, tactics are refined, players acquire more skillpoints etc etc. Just because the mechanics are the same doesn't mean the entire game, encompassing the experience of playing it rather than 'the rules', hasn't changed.

a mitten
September 13 2011, 10:21:38 PM
Could your ego be any bigger? Seriously.

i think you guys often mistake my 'ego' for simple raw contempt, it's not arrogant to recognize a screaming lunatic for what he is. it might be cruel to poke the lunatic with sticks and insult him, but that's a different character flaw

the posts by bart, virt, yourself and evel are so hilariously off the rails with either misplaced claims of competence (hello mittens let ~me~ tell ~you~ about politics and business - both!) or straightjacketed paranoia that there's no point in engaging in dialogue. that group also forgets that your particular echo chamber ("mad about CCP and unable to accept anything but doomsday theories, posts on FHC") is a population of at most 200 people. the core posters in that group number perhaps 20.

realposting to a troll because the echo chamber phenomenon is an interesting one

what really proves that this group is unsalvagably nuts is how rapidly you turn on even your own candidates as being ~traitors to the cause~ even though they've been in CSM5 (trebor), your now-sainted exemplars, and are supposedly FHC-approved. Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

it's like telling someone in the tea party or in an evangelical church that some of their truths are not true p much

B.B.
September 13 2011, 11:54:45 PM
Just a quick reply. Firstly, in law school a lot of techniques exist that basically come down to either character assassination or attempted dismissal of expert witnesses by casting doubts on their actual experience. Neither of these techniques actually attempts to debate the merits or lack of merits of what the actual person said. Instead they attempt to dismiss there person as a whole.

There is another thing that I believe should be pointed out to The Mittani. The number of voters in a political party is not reflected directly by the number of politicians or talk show hosts that are the champions of that party or its causes. This is a public forum that anyone can read, members or not. The number of members or vocal debaters does not reflect the number of readers. It also does not invalidate the points made by any posters here.

Also, the fact you post here at all shows that you care about your image here, Mittens, as much as you deny it. The fact a significant number of other CSMs and former CSMs post here supports that this forum and its posters matter to someone. Maybe even you, Mittens.

Steph
September 14 2011, 12:49:45 AM
Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

To be fair that is the primary method of communication here at FHC. I mean, have you seen the rest of the forum?

Lana Torrin
September 14 2011, 01:30:15 AM
To be fair that is the primary method of communication here at FHC. I mean, have you seen the rest of the forum?
Sorry.

Lana Torrin
September 14 2011, 01:33:02 AM
words i really dont care about
Thankyou for at least not bringing out that tired old possibly once funny but not anymore 'kill yourself' line. The lack of using this has at least shown you are learning something.

Sponk
September 14 2011, 01:42:26 AM
Thankyou for at least not bringing out that tired old possibly once funny but not anymore 'kill yourself' line. The lack of using this has at least shown you are learning something.
It's probably a reflex by now.

Lana Torrin
September 14 2011, 01:44:43 AM
It's probably a reflex by now.
Its a habit he really needs to break if he wants to be taken even remotely seriously. I'm hoping that by encouraging him and rewarding him when he does good that over time this behavior can be changed. Kind of like what you do with a puppy or a small child..

Sponk
September 14 2011, 01:48:31 AM
*shrug* His language adjusts for his audience. I bet you don't use :fakesmileys: in business correspondence.

edit: also, it's touching you care so much about the image that Alexander projects in his Mittani persona.

Kate Yeats
September 14 2011, 01:51:49 AM
it's like telling someone in the tea party

You really expect us to believe there's a valid comparison between the CSM and a bunch of gibbering idiots who actively reject facts, blindly marching to their own misguided agenda with complete ignorance of the world around ... ahh.

Lana Torrin
September 14 2011, 01:53:04 AM
*shrug* His language adjusts for his audience. I bet you don't use :fakesmileys: in business correspondence.

I have the unfortunate distinction of sending out a group email to around 10,000 customers and ending it with 'Cheers :)'. Fortunately my manager thought it was hilarious and my punishment was responding to everyone that replied (about 30 people in the end).

Sponk
September 14 2011, 02:03:27 AM
Some gaming terms have slipped into my normal vocabulary; most notably, the concept of a failure cascade, which replaced more specific terms like the dead sea effect (http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/11/the-wetware-crisis-the-dead-sea-effect/).

However, none of the language slips I've made are at the same level of inappropriateness as telling a customer service rep to die in a fire, just to name a hypothetical example.

B.B.
September 14 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Its a habit he really needs to break if he wants to be taken even remotely seriously. I'm hoping that by encouraging him and rewarding him when he does good that over time this behavior can be changed. Kind of like what you do with a puppy or a small child..

This.

Marlona Sky
September 14 2011, 02:40:46 AM
Trebor: I know X, and I know Y, and X-Y is not very large.

You: I only know Y, and I assert that X-Y is indeed large.

:derper:

Me: I only know Y, and don't know X. Either way I don't give a fuck about Y or X.

noobcake
September 14 2011, 03:19:05 AM
Me: I only know Y, and don't know X. Either way I don't give a fuck about Y or X.

this is a 100% false statement, and you know it.

Marlona Sky
September 14 2011, 05:34:57 AM
this is a 100% false statement, and you know it.

I know...

Lana Torrin
September 14 2011, 06:45:07 AM
I know...
On the up side, I do get to watch those cats fight on every page you post on.. So keep it up!

Marlona Sky
September 14 2011, 09:41:51 AM
On the up side, I do get to watch those cats fight on every page you post on.. So keep it up!

noobcake my #1 fan!

/puts out more bait

Helicity
September 14 2011, 09:54:47 AM
i think you guys often mistake my 'ego' for simple raw contempt, it's not arrogant to recognize a screaming lunatic for what he is. it might be cruel to poke the lunatic with sticks and insult him, but that's a different character flaw

the posts by bart, virt, yourself and evel are so hilariously off the rails with either misplaced claims of competence (hello mittens let ~me~ tell ~you~ about politics and business - both!) or straightjacketed paranoia that there's no point in engaging in dialogue. that group also forgets that your particular echo chamber ("mad about CCP and unable to accept anything but doomsday theories, posts on FHC") is a population of at most 200 people. the core posters in that group number perhaps 20.

realposting to a troll because the echo chamber phenomenon is an interesting one

what really proves that this group is unsalvagably nuts is how rapidly you turn on even your own candidates as being ~traitors to the cause~ even though they've been in CSM5 (trebor), your now-sainted exemplars, and are supposedly FHC-approved. Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

it's like telling someone in the tea party or in an evangelical church that some of their truths are not true p much

I really don't see why you dignify the rampant "omg this csm is so bad" crowd with responses. As much as I am ~mad~ at CCP, I really don't think it's your fault, nor indeed that there is realistically anything you can do to make CCP... well... not be retards.

Dodgy Past
September 14 2011, 12:36:16 PM
what really proves that this group is unsalvagably nuts is how rapidly you turn on even your own candidates as being ~traitors to the cause~ even though they've been in CSM5 (trebor), your now-sainted exemplars, and are supposedly FHC-approved. Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

it's like telling someone in the tea party or in an evangelical church that some of their truths are not true p muchOr he could reflect on what he's doing different this time around compared with last time.... assuming he actually cares.

If you were going to delve into that deeper you'd also notice that this time around Meissa is more popular, two step is appreciated far more than might have been imagined from the initial greeting he got here and I suspect most people are very satisfied to see Seleene behaving roughly as they expected him to when they voted for him. FWIW I'd also suggest many find you far less obnoxious than they expected to, though that's probably down to their own expectation management ;)

Donte
September 14 2011, 12:58:24 PM
sorry if this question has been asked before.

But what makes you guys think that the devs are actually going to do anything they say?

Its great that the CSM put CCP in the hot-seat over their shenanigans.

But, in the past, CCP has been rather notorious for saying what ever they have to say to get out of the hot-seat while never intending to do any of it.

why back off now? why not keep the roaster going until action is taken?

make ccp put their money where their mouth is, not just let them show it to everyone and have them say it will be :awesome:.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 02:03:52 PM
sorry if this question has been asked before.

But what makes you guys think that the devs are actually going to do anything they say?

Its great that the CSM put CCP in the hot-seat over their shenanigans.

But, in the past, CCP has been rather notorious for saying what ever they have to say to get out of the hot-seat while never intending to do any of it.

why back off now? why not keep the roaster going until action is taken?

make ccp put their money where their mouth is, not just let them show it to everyone and have them say it will be :awesome:.

The short version, is that mittens relies very much on friend contacts. If a brosef says so, it is so. This often is the case, but not necessarily so - as has been demonstrated in the past few months. But, this is the same root problem that has plagued CCP for so long (and still does), if a friend says X, it's cool. All too often, they cannot seperate in a healthy manner between "person" and "position". The CSM as a while is very constricted in what information they can get from CCP, increasingly so. They do have open communications, but since EVE in maintenance mode is subject to business allocation levels above all else, it is a question whether CSM is able to reach out and communicate in meaningful manners with those who make the real decisions. Arnar / Zulu for example is a good point (and an honest point) of contact for the product level, but it is above that level which impacts the course for EVE, the resources available to EVE, and the timeline for EVE.

Which is why you get sillyness like people sneaking in untested content elements in a bugfix patch, or half an expansion cut off because in the end it turns out that the brosef talk was bull, and so forth. Things that are not exceptions, but which have become the rule. Even now parts of CCP pride themselves that they are so good at reserving programming time post patch for weeks. After so many years, one would have thought that at least someone would have asked "guys, since we all went so apeshit over technical debt, would it not be an idea to, you know, like, impose some limits on how much technical debt we can incur? It's only a matter of time before our customers figure shit out again and slap us silly with our own words and then the bosses get emberassed again".

That being said, there is a caveat to make here. It is one thing to pressure CCP by means of the only thing that counts: public exposure. It is another thing to prevent causing structural damage, through overexposure. That is a very fine line to walk for any CSM.

As this CSM chose not for a consistant approach in maintaining transparancy, but only a very selective approach (spotlight), it really only has that (very easily excessive) instrument of throwing stuff in social and gaming networking. That is a very limited tool, as such things are very easy to spiral out of control.

Take for example of how years ago all messaging concerning CCP and EVE was positively trended. These days, that has become largely negatively trended. But that is within the connected communities. Too much exposure of that with too much consistancy can easily create a trending perception. A notion, if you will, in gaming that EVE is not worth it. And that, is averse to what both CCP and CSM and its customers dare to want.

Calling off the media push, was the sensible thing to do. At this point. It is however, something of an instrument which can only be used a few times, before either it has to hit its target or it becomes ineffective. Credibility of source and message is a topic there really. CCP is very much aware of that, it is one reason why they do the madness in incremental tiny steps. Every action will over time by default be met with a decreasing reaction (and not just on this level of exposure management or messaging).

The problem is, that this CSM has no other instruments available to maintain an open arena, other than that which comes down to brosef communications. Which is basically tough and sturdy talk with some, and friendly talk with others, depending on who feeds you what and does as you like (with a dose present also of verifying competence in steps along the way). But that is not because of CCP, that has been a choice made by the current chair. The rest of the CSM has to work within those constraints.

Brosef engineering is nothing other than social engineering 2.0, with the added risk that it is a blade that cuts in more than one way. As we have seen, with CCP taking a walk with CSM statements and opinions, to suit their own opinions and desires, more than once.

Mike deVoid
September 14 2011, 02:25:11 PM
And yet you keep coming back here to reply time and time again to tell us just how much you hold us in contempt, how arrogant you are not, and how much smarter you are than all of us. For all the trolling that you tell everyone you're so good at, who's being trolled here?

And good job on copying CCP's self-affirming attitude as well BTW. "They're only perhaps 20 core posters, who don't really matter! We now what the player's really want!" Keep applying yourself to the 'silent majority' genius. Worked wonders for Nixon didn't it? You sure are funny, if totally predictable ...

At least he still plays the fucking game. You keep coming back and posting :words: to let us all know how ~little~ you care. Yawn.

Trebor Daehdoow
September 14 2011, 02:27:37 PM
Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

I am old, and my senses are dulled. I can't smell the shit or hear the high-frequency screeching. I guess that's why I like Failheap so much.

two step
September 14 2011, 02:33:22 PM
sorry if this question has been asked before.

But what makes you guys think that the devs are actually going to do anything they say?

Its great that the CSM put CCP in the hot-seat over their shenanigans.

But, in the past, CCP has been rather notorious for saying what ever they have to say to get out of the hot-seat while never intending to do any of it.

why back off now? why not keep the roaster going until action is taken?

make ccp put their money where their mouth is, not just let them show it to everyone and have them say it will be :awesome:.

I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

Kate Yeats
September 14 2011, 02:36:18 PM
The problem is, that this CSM has no other instruments available to maintain an open arena, other than that which comes down to brosef communications.

Which surprises me as Mittens and the CSM talk often of the carrot failing, but unless it has been all NDA-ed theres no carrot in the CSM minutes. For someone walking in with the resume Mittens has, conflict resolution and strategies for dealing with it should be subtle, plentiful and effective. Maybe that's all happening on skype but the impass with business shows either those strategies don't work when not dealing with like-minded Goons happy to march in step or they don't just plain don't work.

Chairman 'lol I know politics and business' is hitting the same walls as CSM5. The media campaign might work, but that's a blackmail strategy and has nothing to do with Mitten's skills to charm/massage or alter perception.

definatelynotKKassandra
September 14 2011, 02:41:43 PM
I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

You were told something that made you back off, duh. Given that they haven't DONE anything visible to me, the clueless peon. That doesn't address the 'watch what they do, not what they say' concern at all.

Not that I think backing off was the wrong thing to do, but I don't see how you can fail to see why people are still worried that CCP won't actually DO anything about your (and our) concerns.

Traxio Nacho
September 14 2011, 02:42:24 PM
I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

Figured what out? You had a meeting and got told what you wanted to hear........

CCP would never say something one day then a few months later when things have calmed down go and do the opposite or nothing would they?

Kate Yeats
September 14 2011, 02:43:00 PM
I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

What's NDA about 'Eve is getting more devs'?

[edit] I got it! CCP are cancelling WoD!!!! right? right??

XenosisReaper
September 14 2011, 03:05:43 PM
You say things I don't like so you are all lunatics

GG

edit, I actually like most of the CSM, just because they are "FHC Approved" doesn't mean I can't call bullshit when I see bullshit.

That said, I'm fairly sure I haven't raged about the latest meeting yet because I trust theres an actual good reason for the CSM to be so upbeat.

If not...well I don't even play Eve anymore so :welp:

I just love trolling you because it's so easy tbh.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 03:09:45 PM
I am old, and my senses are dulled. I can't smell the shit or hear the high-frequency screeching. I guess that's why I like Failheap so much.

The new car should compensate a little :-)

two step
September 14 2011, 03:10:10 PM
Figured what out? You had a meeting and got told what you wanted to hear........

CCP would never say something one day then a few months later when things have calmed down go and do the opposite or nothing would they?

OMG, you are right. If only we were smart enough to have known of this behavior before we had the meeting!

XenosisReaper
September 14 2011, 03:10:58 PM
What's NDA about 'Eve is getting more devs'?

[edit] I got it! CCP are cancelling WoD!!!! right? right??

I don't see one of the only senior devs left on Eve confirming an entirely unrelated game cancellation :sadface:

definatelynotKKassandra
September 14 2011, 03:23:20 PM
OMG, you are right. If only we were smart enough to have known of this behavior before we had the meeting!

Indeed. Which is why I trust that you have some good reason to believe this won't happen. That's all I have to base this belief on though - trust. And I'm sure you know what lessons Eve teaches about trust :)

(Which is why I would hope you're pushing for whatever this super-sekrit stuff that has you all so upbeat to be released to the public in some fashion very, very soon. Allowing it to fester for 2 months is not an option if you want to keep the rabble soothed)

Traxio Nacho
September 14 2011, 03:24:08 PM
OMG, you are right. If only we were smart enough to have known of this behavior before we had the meeting!

Well I was being sarcastic, but the point was you've obviously been told things from CCP which is good but :because of NDA: can't say what is it.

However I assume you can't have anything in place to actually hold CCP to anything they have told you in a meeting? So until the player base see something implemented on TQ or at least discussed from a Dev, a lot of people will still be sceptical of what CCP say especially considering their track record.

Anyhow we'll have to wait and see what happens "watch what they do not what they say" :D

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 03:31:08 PM
Which surprises me as Mittens and the CSM talk often of the carrot failing, but unless it has been all NDA-ed theres no carrot in the CSM minutes. For someone walking in with the resume Mittens has, conflict resolution and strategies for dealing with it should be subtle, plentiful and effective. Maybe that's all happening on skype but the impass with business shows either those strategies don't work when not dealing with like-minded Goons happy to march in step or they don't just plain don't work.

Chairman 'lol I know politics and business' is hitting the same walls as CSM5. The media campaign might work, but that's a blackmail strategy and has nothing to do with Mitten's skills to charm/massage or alter perception.

Well, it hasn't worked. That's been clear a while now. What remains, for him, is personal objectives. Which is entirely understandable imo.

CSM5 got a lot further than this CSM6 sofar. But note the "sofar". Just like with CSM5, CCP is trying to continue the same wishes & wants (some out of business necessity, others out of ingrained methods, yet others simply because too much has piled up over time - which includes both cultural and technical debts).

CSM5 however was not a unified CSM. It was a small core, with noses pointing the same way and a shared understanding of what works and how things tick. But it spent a hell of a lot of time with itself, as there was another core just not agreeing with those methods. And yeah, a bit which just went for the lulz and the brosef. But CSM5 did get uncannily close to unveiling CCP's own chokepoints (and people) to CCP itself.

To really take care of EVE, and the interests shared by CCP, CSM and Customers alike, that is one of the biggest required targets to deal with. The bottlenecks internal, the bullshit, which too often "CCP" believes or even adopts because of how they have grown.

But CSM6, regardless of the showboat mittens and the illusions of brosef engineering, IS a lot more unified. Sure it has its bunch of useless nitwits. Doh. Welcome to the human race. But they are not in each others way. And that presents an enormous opportunity, which would be a shame to see derailed as it has been the past few months. In part by CCP, and in part by the way this CSM began and how it initially approached the choice of methods.

Now I'm sure there won't be a response from Mittens to this, but this is something which has become clear:
1. this CSM has a unity which provides a very decent platform.
2. this CSM has a basic reach in gaming platforms for CCP's existing markets.
3. this CSM is learning that no matter how much brosef talk above or below the table, business dictates game.

This all has consequences, obviously. For one, the necessity to maintain a consistant visibility and transparancy. That is not the same as controlling the narrative, on the contrary. Besides, CSM being dependant of CCP "the company" and CCP "the people" for information simply has zero means to control any narrative. It can only buffer or support narrative. Withholding either, visibly and consistantly is one of its biggest potential instruments. There is good reason why Hilmar (and others) sought and seek a different tone and presentation.

But it is one step at a time, and each time every instrument CSM could wield loses value if the arena consists of spotlights. The carrot failed, because there was no distinction made in accountability between "the company" and "the people". As such you only saw CSM's own adaptation of CCP's "positivity" methods. Spotlighting select (good) people doing good things. But no spotlighting on those places where things broke, or were left in the dark.

And that, has been a boost to good people yes. But it has also been an enormous boost to the rotten apples. If nobody points out to things breaking, the ones not caring (so to speak) are under no obligation to change even their mindset or stance to it all. So by default the mess that breaks things, plans and promises alike (business > game as both reason and abused excuse) continues.

CSM is right. We do need new things to do. We don't need new things to wear. That is only ever going to be of real interest once CCP manages to not just create gameplay for Incarna, but also only once it manages to attract and cultivate customer types that adopt that game above the gameplay. This is the thing which a lot at CCP did not get during fanfest when they said that they could not wait for the Incarna drama to be over. The cost of Incarna begins only after all that. Anything up to that point, is just initial steps of BUILDING A MARKET. Which ideally you do alongside and in parallel to building the game. And CCP, meanwhile, is still throwing everything it's got at building the game first and foremost.

The media campaign, as mittens noted, is over btw. The next time, it can be used less deeply. Which IS a shame. And CCP is quite aware of this.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 03:37:20 PM
However I assume you can't have anything in place to actually hold CCP to anything they have told you in a meeting? So until the player base see something implemented on TQ or at least discussed from a Dev, a lot of people will still be sceptical of what CCP say especially considering their track record.

Accountability. This is now very tricky. Due to choices made at the start, holding CCP to actions long long long past words & memory of words alike, is the only thing this CSM can still do in this respect (while in the mean time CCP continues its own timeline well ahead of CSM step by step regardless). There is no raw logs of meetings, no regular updates (until recently again Two Step started to do this), no visibility of communications or decisions or commitments (not promises btw, not the same thing) to which CCP can be held over a visible timeline.

Remember when CSM5 talked shop about who said what, when, where, what actions were to follow, by whom and where & when. CCP acted on that. Even the rotten apples, until their pants dropped over Incarna. As I have said before, due to chosen methods (which cannot be reverted, no matter what mittens would want - if he wanted it for results or exposure) this is the practical result really. And sure, it is a shame. But it is as it is now. CCPians were not dumb when they embraced the brosef engineering, no matter how good friends people are selective information paths without accountability are never a recipee for anything.

Rakshasa The Cat
September 14 2011, 03:38:39 PM
Well, it hasn't worked. That's been clear a while now. What remains, for him, is personal objectives. Which is entirely understandable imo.
Sometimes finding out who your friends are, and who your enemies are, is more important than some time wasted or failed objectives. The latter is gone like shit in the wind, but the former keeps paying dividends for a long time.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 04:15:55 PM
Sometimes finding out who your friends are, and who your enemies are, is more important than some time wasted or failed objectives. The latter is gone like shit in the wind, but the former keeps paying dividends for a long time.

True, but that was well established long before that time there. Hence why it was used as base for the approach. CCP was quite happy with it, for obvious reasons.

But pairing that with a comparison towards objectives, is a bit of a waste. Social engineering, especially when it is bi directional, is by default subject to its penultimate operational environment. And it is thus very limited. Business > game > people.

Qwert
September 14 2011, 04:46:59 PM
I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

Hrm, I wonder if Arnar got promoted to a position where he could actually do something more impacting beyond rationing the dozen or so devs that actually work on FiS? Like say moving devs around to FiS teams?

Dodgy Past
September 14 2011, 04:54:42 PM
I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...1) You were told stuff at the Emergency summit
2) you backed off
3) CCP did fuck all.

I'd have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

Marlona Sky
September 14 2011, 05:28:43 PM
I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
1) We met with Arnar
2) We stopped our media campaign

I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

I truly am not trying to sound bitter just to be bitter, but how many times have we been at this point only to be disappointed later. No one trust their word. They may show you guys pretty slides, charts, meet with 'important' people, etc., but like I said, at this point we are numb to it all. I want to see actual results on TQ. That is the only thing CCP can do to get me to believe anything they say. We all have been sweet talked for many years only to find out later, whatever was talked about, never happened. Again, results on TQ. Until then, nothing they say, you all say, will make a difference in how we feel about them right now.

The whole, "Take my word for it." trust was severely broken looooooooong ago. Replaced with, "I'll believe it when I see it." attitude.

Malcanis
September 14 2011, 06:46:09 PM
1) You were told stuff at the Emergency summit
2) you backed off
3) CCP did fuck all.

I'd have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

Except for the teeny tiny timeline issue of the CSM starting to fire media shots after the Emergency summit...

Dodgy Past
September 14 2011, 07:37:25 PM
Except for the teeny tiny timeline issue of the CSM starting to fire media shots after the Emergency summit...The media shots after the summit seemed to joint PR crap with CCP IIRC. That's what I would describe as backing off.

I did take a break from Eve and FHC for a couple of months after that, so it's possible missed something.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 07:49:21 PM
Except for the teeny tiny timeline issue of the CSM starting to fire media shots after the Emergency summit...

Well, that went like

4. Nothing came from CCP
5. CSM poked media
6. CCP delivered words

So, aside of organisational and procedural changes at CCP, plus ca change .. plus ca reste.

Which leaves us now at 7. Wait and see for words that cannot be shared.


Don't get me wrong, there's a theoretical potential for a useful change, but it is not as if we have not seen that in the past either. Each time it looked promising, even for folks internally, but sofar each time it was met with intervention from little kingdoms. This AND next year's crunchpoint really is how much technical debt is CCP at various places willing and able to hide from itself on this long road of "come on guys, one more quarter, and another, we'll be done with overextending ourselves soon and then we can take y'all as real resources in HR".



...



Kinda reminds me now of Nathan's absolutely hilarious outburst over Apocrypha and technical debt. I honestly wonder if he has any incling these days of what has been left to linger, and what has been chosen to just add on as more technical debt. Then again, he's pretty much out. Godspeed.

Back serious again though, this is something that does bother me. Any nut can see the challenge CCP has in engaging in its multiple ventures with its limited resources, and the restrictions faced both in refinancing cycles as well as HR. But these are all matters that contribute immensely to procedural debts. And that has not just been going on for a while, but has - as we have seen - been stepped up majorly. Heck, there's a team of CCPians off to Shanghai for the magic Dust link. Cool. But once they come back, it is back to established doctrines and execution. CCP's established methods of the positivity lobby for resources is no longer cutting it, stretched as they are.

A structural commitment is needed on a resource allocation level and on a strategic planning level, towards the core of the cashcow with a clear mandate to overcome the usual and typical bullshit restrictions found during execution in dependancies like Art (srsly, I'm still apalled at how much time is wasted on experiments, personal opinions and parodies of "I don't like it, fuck customers, this is not about them" - no joke that quote). Seeing that, would convince me that together this CSM and CCP can effectuate meaningful change. Without either, it just remains a periodic lobby / fight for resources. With CSM being "behind" CCP on CCP's timeline. And, this is where Mittens is right, that is the business level. And that is where the challenge lies.

No, it is not an impossible challenge. That's where he is wrong. It's actually easy. And the really fun part? It is in the interest of us, csm, and above all the folks who work at CCP. And the money. More money than Incarna will deliver until it has seized and capitalised on its chosen subscriber type markets (including the WoD venture road there, which is a HELL of a lot longer still).

Malcanis
September 14 2011, 07:59:28 PM
Look we all know perfectly well what CCP needs to do (at least from our perspective of people who want EVE to be worth logging in to in the future), there's no need to :words: about that.

The question is whether it is possible for the CSM to expedite that action, and how we can help them do it.

Aurora148
September 14 2011, 08:25:12 PM
even if they came out and made a big blabbering commitment post telling you guys how much they are going to save eve by rearranging resources, there is absolutely nothing which stops them going back on their "word" if it suits them to do it.

Either believe them or don't, crowing about it changes fuck all.

Marlona Sky
September 14 2011, 08:36:50 PM
even if they came out and made a big blabbering commitment post telling you guys how much they are going to save eve by rearranging resources, there is absolutely nothing which stops them going back on their "word" if it suits them to do it.

Either believe them or don't, crowing about it changes fuck all.

But, but,.. what do we post about?

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 08:51:21 PM
even if they came out and made a big blabbering commitment post telling you guys how much they are going to save eve by rearranging resources, there is absolutely nothing which stops them going back on their "word" if it suits them to do it.

Either believe them or don't, crowing about it changes fuck all.

While that is not the same as putting together what I pointed out, you do have a point there. CCP has a well established record of going back on its word. Not out of evil. Typically because of circumstances where a new buzzword was introduced, sometimes out of business interests and sometimes out of personal interests. But when that happens, priorities and challenges obviously (and understandably) change. Natural result: consequences downstream.

I do think however, that the case of mandate is capable of preventing that, as long as it is an ingrained part of strategic focus. The question here however is whether CCP at that core of the company is really still willing to consider that. Too many of them have moved on long ago, in interests and in work. Which is only natural. They do seem to have an understanding of the necessity to maintain the cashcow. But I do miss an understanding of the necessity to sustainably grow the cashcow without asking it to not just produce milk, but also pull heavy loads for other farms.

Malcanis
September 14 2011, 08:53:05 PM
even if they came out and made a big blabbering commitment post telling you guys how much they are going to save eve by rearranging resources, there is absolutely nothing which stops them going back on their "word" if it suits them to do it.

Either believe them or don't, crowing about it changes fuck all.

Making them say it publicly makes it a bit harder for them to backtrack. The benefit is they'll take longer and pull out less when they do. It's a worthwhile goal.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 09:05:07 PM
Look we all know perfectly well what CCP needs to do (at least from our perspective of people who want EVE to be worth logging in to in the future), there's no need to :words: about that.

The question is whether it is possible for the CSM to expedite that action, and how we can help them do it.

For a lot of people there seems to be a bit of confusion. In distinguishing between the chair and the csm as a whole. An unfortunate consequence of the entertainment element of the concept. Tant pis, tant mieux.

Remember the immediate first step that was taken in that regard. Narrative control. Regardless of usefulness (which has by now been demonstrated to have not just been in vain, but also highly counterproductive and unreliable) it is still a very strong element in the Mittens Method (coining a phrase, so to speak, brosef engineering has been mastered more by CCP than by him and others these days). There never is a single message or single verdict or narrative. Nor is there any control over. Diversity is tbh the biggest potential in energy readily available for use.

Which takes a lot of folks back to that pesky matter of which comes first. CSM or Chair. And what to identify with, as people, as players, as message to subscribe to (regardless of agreement). In spite of a bunch here, I do think Mittens has realised a few things through recent events. As I said, this CSM has a much more potential cohesion. But it is not about the detail level of the lolpolitics and selective representation anymore. It never really was. Like it or not, due to choices CCP has made and acted on, CSM is about the strategic and business level. No matter how much the team awesome types may dislike that. It is a natural result of their actions over the years, and even today still.

To engage on the question what subscribers can do, they should really choose to clear up first what the real target is. Detail level lolpolitics, or EVE Online and the role of CCP and its Customers in synergy (the very thing that was lost due to what people seem to call the "team awesome" side of CCP and their decisions along the way - "them vs us").

Until that time, it is just a matter of what people can do for chair or csm. Which plays out on a detail level completely dependant of and controlled by CCP. Utterly pointless.

Team over show. Up the ante. Take point. With consistant visibility and clarity on events & situations, people will by default follow shared interests.

Virtuozzo
September 14 2011, 09:14:41 PM
Making them say it publicly makes it a bit harder for them to backtrack. The benefit is they'll take longer and pull out less when they do. It's a worthwhile goal.

Especially when that is part of consistant messaging, and even more so if that is visibly carried by channels and media beyond those of the existing subscribers.

"All expansions are always free". One can argue that some would like to nibble at that with MT and it's been mostly empty shit recently, sure, but the principle stands. And the consequences of that in execution as well. Content + features (and now also a little polishing) are required for that. Because CCP said it in public, consistantly, carried by subscribers making stories and media alike. Ergo.


The issue with CCP is that its word has lost all value. One way to deal with that is to only take them by their actions. Which does not work, as by default CSM and Customers are as a result of this "behind" CCP's decisions and executions. It also doesn't really work for CCP, as every time they pursue that method, it costs them more trust and belief - vital currencies in any service model. Law of diminishing returns on that move, basically.

Hate to use the word again, but accountability is not a bad word or thing. It creates room for good people to be enabled to do good things as bad stuff becomes equally visible and thus cannot be perpetually ignored without costs & consequences. The trouble is that people all too often perceive the notion of "being held accountable" as a bad thing. Understandable, but that is really not the same as applying accountability.

Sponk
September 14 2011, 10:48:44 PM
Hate to use the word again, but accountability is not a bad word or thing. It creates room for good people to be enabled to do good things as bad stuff becomes equally visible and thus cannot be perpetually ignored without costs & consequences. The trouble is that people all too often perceive the notion of "being held accountable" as a bad thing. Understandable, but that is really not the same as applying accountability.
http://onefte.com/comics-archive/2011-07-16-how-long-has-it-been-since-your-last-confession.png

noobcake
September 15 2011, 04:27:46 AM
still wondering why two step said theyre not convinced about Arnar, but at the same time said that their meeting with Arnar settled CSMs nerves (yeh im paraphrasing b/c i cba to fuck through all these posts again)....any answer Two Step? That's a little on the side of talking out of both sides of your mouth....

Mike deVoid
September 15 2011, 09:29:51 AM
Where is minutes?!

Sponk
September 15 2011, 09:38:48 AM
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2386

Mike deVoid
September 15 2011, 10:03:11 AM
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2386

Haha. I'll admit you got me for a second. I just want to know what Arnar promised!

two step
September 15 2011, 11:20:20 AM
FYI, looks like we will be meeting with Arnar again tomorrow morning. It will most likely be NDA'd again, but we will again push them hard to say *something* to the community

filingo
September 15 2011, 11:28:41 AM
are the csm skype meetings like those videos where you try and get someone to put a shoe on their head?

Rakshasa The Cat
September 15 2011, 02:33:37 PM
are the csm skype meetings like those videos where you try and get someone to put a shoe on their head?
No, I think they're doing the kind where you try to get little girls and boys to undress.

noobcake
September 15 2011, 02:56:18 PM
FYI, looks like we will be meeting with Arnar again tomorrow morning. It will most likely be NDA'd again, but we will again push them hard to say *something* to the community

keep ducking the question...im not asking for you to break NDA. I'm asking why you guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth though.

"WE ARENT CONVINCED HES GOT AS MUCH PULL AS HE SAYS!"

*but*

"THESE MEETINGS ARE REALLY PUTTING OUR MINDS AT EASE, HE'S SO GREAT!"

noobcake
September 15 2011, 02:57:05 PM
are the csm skype meetings like those videos where you try and get someone to put a shoe on their head?

shoe-on-head was accomplished before CSM was ever established.

randomToon
September 15 2011, 03:29:08 PM
shoe-on-head was accomplished before CSM was ever established.

I thought that it was pants-on-head.

ry ry
September 15 2011, 03:39:52 PM
something happened, i can't tell you about it because of an nda. i could be killed by icelandic mercenaries at any second for even revealing there is an nda.

however it was important things. VERY IMPORTANT THINGS.

Aypse
September 15 2011, 03:57:35 PM
something happened, i can't tell you about it because of an nda. i could be killed by icelandic mercenaries at any second for even revealing there is an nda.

however it was important things. VERY IMPORTANT THINGS.

tHE PLAYERS HAVE SUCH CONFIDENCE IN csm AND ccp THAT NO EVIDENCE IS FUCKING NEEDED. gET BACK IN LINE, MARCH WHERE OUR GENIUS LEADERS SAY, AND stfu.

jockothemonkey
September 15 2011, 04:11:02 PM
FYI, looks like we will be meeting with Arnar again tomorrow morning. It will most likely be NDA'd again, but we will again push them hard to say *something* to the community
The simple answer is to only meet with them if the results of that discussion can be shared with the player base at large. Right now CCP has no reason to follow through on anything they promise to you in these meetings, you can't complain if they don't follow through because of the NDA.

definatelynotKKassandra
September 15 2011, 04:16:09 PM
The simple answer is to only meet with them if the results of that discussion can be shared with the player base at large.

This would be a retarded stance to take. Whilst I have sympathy with the concern that until whatever the good stuff that came out of the last meeting is made public it will be close to impossible to hold CCP to it, the thread has descended into tinfoil a bit...

a mitten
September 15 2011, 04:31:00 PM
I don't think I've ever seen so many words written - with such iron confidence as to their surety - on the basis of nothing but raw speculation. It's like Virt, Kate and Dodgy were ~on our shoulders~ at the summits and in our Skype channel, and they're letting the truth leak out! Noooooooo~

Get help.

Frug
September 15 2011, 04:43:35 PM
I truly am not trying to sound bitter just to be bitter, but how many times have we been at this point only to be disappointed later. No one trust their word. They may show you guys pretty slides, charts, meet with 'important' people, etc., but like I said, at this point we are numb to it all. I want to see actual results on TQ. That is the only thing CCP can do to get me to believe anything they say. We all have been sweet talked for many years only to find out later, whatever was talked about, never happened. Again, results on TQ. Until then, nothing they say, you all say, will make a difference in how we feel about them right now.

The whole, "Take my word for it." trust was severely broken looooooooong ago. Replaced with, "I'll believe it when I see it." attitude.Why are you still going on about this though? I mean, they can't instantly give you what you want. You can't actually expect them to give you anything but promises two months after the last expansion just got put out.
I'm with you in that I'll believe it when I see it. What I don't get is expecting anything right now. I just lost interest for the most part, and it's more like ~yawn~ still waiting. So what?

ry ry
September 15 2011, 04:55:49 PM
I don't think I've ever seen so many words written - with such iron confidence as to their surety - on the basis of nothing but raw speculation. It's like Virt, Kate and Dodgy were ~on our shoulders~ at the summits and in our Skype channel, and they're letting the truth leak out! Noooooooo~

Get help.
Hi! Thanks for taking the time out to post a half arsed putdown on an internet forum. We all really appreciate all your hard work, posting, skyping, posting about skyping, posting about ndas and - natrually - the half arsed putdowns.

I must confess, one little thing is troubling me - Aren't you supposed to be helping them?

a mitten
September 15 2011, 05:02:24 PM
im sure somewhere in the CSM white paper there's a blurb about taking care of the lunatics, especially those who loudly campaigned against me

failing in my obligations already :(((

Maximillian
September 15 2011, 05:07:38 PM
I think the issue is that (a) the CSM was supposed to be a two way method of communication between the players and CCP, in that it served as a filter of the forum rabble-rabble for CCP to identify legitimate player concerns and then in reverse allow CCP to let the players know what was going on in a way the players could understand without endless Dev Blogs.

Instead the blanket NDA crap means that this communication just doesn't occur. CCP has no credibility left and is making zero effort to rebuild trust and the CSM are useless in their intended role.

I figured out long ago that the best solution was to unsub my three 70 mil + accounts. If CCP ever gets its FiS shit back together then if I can't live with a couple of months of training catch up I can use the 3 monthly sub x 26 months now to simply buy a main.

If CCP can't understand that after the past two-three years vague handwaving promises mean zilch then I was wise to save my cash.

XenosisReaper
September 15 2011, 05:15:30 PM
im sure somewhere in the CSM white paper there's a blurb about taking care of the lunatics, especially those who loudly campaigned against me

failing in my obligations already :(((

Never stop posting

Kate Yeats
September 15 2011, 06:02:06 PM
im sure somewhere in the CSM white paper there's a blurb about taking care of the lunatics, especially those who loudly campaigned against me

To be fair, I was quite encouraging of undecideds to fling votes your way on the grounds you'd be utterly useless and therefore harmless to the game.

In terms of rallying the user base and driving home the message Jester has done more and been more effective.

So keep on posting how awesome at :internet spaceship politics: you are and how we're all supposed to be stunned that CCP has made a renewed commitment to changing. Meanwhile, how many fixes are getting thrown out to fix 1.1's single feature?

Frug
September 15 2011, 07:23:19 PM
im sure somewhere in the CSM white paper there's a blurb about taking care of the lunatics, especially those who loudly campaigned against me

failing in my obligations already :(((
I think your obligation to enrage several people here is being well achieved. Watching the childish vitriol directed at you in here is the only entertainment left in Eve.

PS: damn you and your... posting of things. And your skype. I hope you die.

Dodgy Past
September 15 2011, 08:24:06 PM
I don't think I've ever seen so many words written - with such iron confidence as to their surety - on the basis of nothing but raw speculation. It's like Virt, Kate and Dodgy were ~on our shoulders~ at the summits and in our Skype channel, and they're letting the truth leak out! Noooooooo~

Get help.How about explaining why you're so convinced it is different to all the other times CCP have failed to deliver on their promises.

Steph
September 15 2011, 08:43:31 PM
Internet hate. So much internet hate.

BLEURRRRGH
September 15 2011, 08:55:57 PM
I think all the CSM members should come together and unanimously agree to simultaneously break the NDA.

a mitten
September 15 2011, 09:18:05 PM
hey look, torfi got off his ass and made a goodpost, and i can now point out that we got ship spinning and the old hangar functionality back (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=63719#post63719), which removes one of the worst aspects of Incarna (it being mandatory)

meanwhile, winter is coming~

Leboe
September 15 2011, 09:40:39 PM
I think all the CSM members should come together and unanimously agree to simultaneously break the NDA.

I think you should stop posting

Mike deVoid
September 15 2011, 09:43:11 PM
hey look, torfi got off his ass and made a goodpost, and i can now point out that we got ship spinning and the old hangar functionality back (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=63719#post63719), which removes one of the worst aspects of Incarna (it being mandatory)

meanwhile, winter is coming~

Yep, he confirms on the next page the drag-and-drop and double click functionality will be returning. Along with being able to choose between 'old hangar' and disembarking your ship. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=64095#post64095

Virtuozzo
September 15 2011, 10:35:07 PM
I don't think I've ever seen so many words written - with such iron confidence as to their surety - on the basis of nothing but raw speculation. It's like Virt, Kate and Dodgy were ~on our shoulders~ at the summits and in our Skype channel, and they're letting the truth leak out! Noooooooo~

Get help.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so unbelievably bad at their own game :P

Virtuozzo
September 15 2011, 10:37:40 PM
Yep, he confirms on the next page the drag-and-drop and double click functionality will be returning. Along with being able to choose between 'old hangar' and disembarking your ship. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=64095#post64095

Has he commented on how long that functionality will be available? Bit late here, but I vaguely recall comments along the lines of "interim, subject to future feature evolution". Could be confusing something here, entirely possible.

a mitten
September 15 2011, 10:47:35 PM
Whatever. Soon the season of "suck it bitches" - where I rub what CSM6 has wrought in the faces of the doubters and paranoids of this forum - will begin. Ship session change timers, TiDi and the return of the hangar view/ship spinning (despite the 'mandatory' Incarna) is only the beginning.

Then by March, I'll just smile and nod at anyone still telling themselves that the CSM is powerless, and ensure that it remains in sound hands. (This will also involve unironically stumping for Trebor, a bit of crow I'll be happy to eat)

Mike deVoid
September 15 2011, 10:48:21 PM
Has he commented on how long that functionality will be available? Bit late here, but I vaguely recall comments along the lines of "interim, subject to future feature evolution". Could be confusing something here, entirely possible.

I think that was in reference to 'the door' as an option to turn off CQ due to performance issues. Of course it makes sense to get rid of 'the door' once engine optimisations are sufficiently complete, but I don't expect them to switch of the 'old hangar' after they've spent time re-implementing it. But then, I don't feel the need to ~predict~ bitter doomsday scenarios.

Evelgrivion
September 15 2011, 11:01:13 PM
Whatever. Soon the season of "suck it bitches" - where I rub what CSM6 has wrought in the faces of the doubters and paranoids of this forum - will begin. Ship session change timers, TiDi and the return of the hangar view/ship spinning (despite the 'mandatory' Incarna) is only the beginning.

Then by March, I'll just smile and nod at anyone still telling themselves that the CSM is powerless, and ensure that it remains in sound hands. (This will also involve unironically stumping for Trebor, a bit of crow I'll be happy to eat)

Rub it around all you want if and when CCP delivers. I'm tired of this political e-spacehip wrangling bullshit; I want results, which means I want you guys to avoid the inevitable traps that are being laid. I sincerely hope you don't think your work is done on the advocacy front, Mittens; even if CCP does fix the gaping chest wounds, there's a lot of reconstructive surgery yet to be done.

a mitten
September 16 2011, 01:11:26 AM
Rub it around all you want if and when CCP delivers. I'm tired of this political e-spacehip wrangling bullshit; I want results, which means I want you guys to avoid the inevitable traps that are being laid. I sincerely hope you don't think your work is done on the advocacy front, Mittens; even if CCP does fix the gaping chest wounds, there's a lot of reconstructive surgery yet to be done.

No, I pretty much figured that everything was ~completely peachy~ and that I could go back to playing EVE, a game I love so much that I don't log in to play unless under extreme duress (such as an invasion by four separate massive alliances simultaneously) for months at a time.

Kate Yeats
September 16 2011, 01:35:56 AM
Whatever. Soon the season of "suck it bitches" - where I rub what CSM6 has wrought in the faces of the doubters and paranoids of this forum

Altering my view from charmingly arrogant to insane bullshitter in one post.

CCP always planned on bringing some form of the ship hangar back, they've said as much since they first dumped Incarna on duality to cries of 'where's my fucking hangar?'.

At best the CSM can be credited for guiding that vision from some form of crazy ass hattery to someting resembling the traditional hangar, not that we'd know of course because that's all apparently NDA as it was never covered in the minutes.

The irony of course is that this would be game design, something you said from the very outset of your campaign that you would not do, nor is it what the CSM should be doing.

So the big achievement for this CSM is for you to go back on your word and run around crowing the same 'I will/have fixed hybrids' bollocks you spent so long laughing at your predecessors for.

I'd expected this kind of vulgar opportunism, but had hoped I was merely a bitter cynic, instead behind the :words: we find nothing but an endless river of liquid faeces.

Evelgrivion
September 16 2011, 01:43:29 AM
No, I pretty much figured that everything was ~completely peachy~ and that I could go back to playing EVE, a game I love so much that I don't log in to play unless under extreme duress (such as an invasion by four separate massive alliances simultaneously) for months at a time.

Sounds like you're just as tired of the aforementioned (CCP's) bullshit over the game we want vs the game we have and the game being delivered as the rest of us. Complaining about posturing at this point just isn't worth the time and effort if the results are good. All I want CCP to do is get back to making EVE a good and always improving spaceship game.

Sponk
September 16 2011, 01:44:20 AM
This thread

:psyduck:

bigmac
September 16 2011, 02:15:25 AM
Had a Skype conference call with Arnar about resource allocation concerns, but the results are heavily NDA'd. We have another meeting coming soon.Based on this post alone, I will not even consider voting for you come CSM7 election season, and I will encourage others to not vote for you either. You're a suckup wannabe bureaucrat in training IMO.

Sponk
September 16 2011, 02:22:30 AM
Based on this post alone, I will not even consider voting for you come CSM7 election season, and I will encourage others to not vote for you either. You're a suckup wannabe bureaucrat in training IMO.
Based on your post, you're a jerk who jumps to conclusions.

IMO.

bigmac
September 16 2011, 02:34:05 AM
I'm backing off the media pressure after the meeting and am cautiously optimistic. Take that for what you will.

Hint: it wasn't "CCP threatened me", like some drooler on eve-o suggested.
This is completely retarded, even for you, mittens. You NEVER ramped up the media pressure in the first place. If I remember correctly, you said you were planning to do so but ... "oops" ... it happened of its own volition as the gaming media picked up on the issue before you got around to networking your contacts to drum up some bad press for ccp.

So you did nothing in the first place, decided to continue doing nothing (and spun it as a change of plans) and when CCP told you to watch out for what you were even thinking about doing (notwithstanding your denial) you boldly proclaim that it is indeed the fearless way forward. Brilliant. Not.

I applaud your attempts to bring some ccp dev love onto the turd that is existence in 0.0 space. Your performance on the whole :monoclegate: debacle, in contrast, has been laughable and impotent.

Fuggin
September 16 2011, 02:37:03 AM
:popcorn:

a mitten
September 16 2011, 02:57:20 AM
This is completely retarded, even for you, mittens. You NEVER ramped up the media pressure in the first place. If I remember correctly, you said you were planning to do so but ... "oops" ... it happened of its own volition as the gaming media picked up on the issue before you got around to networking your contacts to drum up some bad press for ccp.

So you did nothing in the first place, decided to continue doing nothing (and spun it as a change of plans) and when CCP told you to watch out for what you were even thinking about doing (notwithstanding your denial) you boldly proclaim that it is indeed the fearless way forward. Brilliant. Not.

I applaud your attempts to bring some ccp dev love onto the turd that is existence in 0.0 space. Your performance on the whole :monoclegate: debacle, in contrast, has been laughable and impotent.


Based on this post alone, I will not even consider voting for you come CSM7 election season, and I will encourage others to not vote for you either. You're a suckup wannabe bureaucrat in training IMO.

you sperged at two step for making a purely factual post, you should realize your own utter irrelevance and then commit suicide to atone for your sins against the english language

Evelgrivion
September 16 2011, 03:01:03 AM
you sperged at two step for making a purely factual post, you should realize your own utter irrelevance and then commit suicide to atone for your sins against the english language


I'm backing off the media pressure after the meeting and am cautiously optimistic. Take that for what you will.

Hint: it wasn't "CCP threatened me", like some drooler on eve-o suggested.

Maybe you should off yourself for being hilariously predictable; this is exactly what some of us expected you would do. This is the course of action you take when you wanted to stick to the carrot, rather than the stick, from the beginning. It's not a good idea to back off of CCP because they'll go back to doing what they always do; say hollow words and make delivery time frames for player requested features some time between soon™ and never.

If Torfifrans still has even a portion of the same power as before, what on earth makes you think the status quo has or will change?

Lana Torrin
September 16 2011, 03:08:33 AM
you sperged at two step for making a purely factual post, you should realize your own utter irrelevance and then commit suicide to atone for your sins against the english language

Bad mittens.. bad... don't make me get the rolled up newspaper..

Sponk
September 16 2011, 03:51:32 AM
Well, all I can say is that the CSM should make CCP realise that it can't sit on its hands and do nothing.
We've had our :18 months: but we won't wait any longer.
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/583

noobcake
September 16 2011, 07:50:43 AM
This is completely retarded, even for you, mittens. You NEVER ramped up the media pressure in the first place. If I remember correctly, you said you were planning to do so but ... "oops" ... it happened of its own volition as the gaming media picked up on the issue before you got around to networking your contacts to drum up some bad press for ccp.

So you did nothing in the first place, decided to continue doing nothing (and spun it as a change of plans) and when CCP told you to watch out for what you were even thinking about doing (notwithstanding your denial) you boldly proclaim that it is indeed the fearless way forward. Brilliant. Not.

I applaud your attempts to bring some ccp dev love onto the turd that is existence in 0.0 space. Your performance on the whole :monoclegate: debacle, in contrast, has been laughable and impotent.

while i dont always care for mittens...what the fuck are you on about? I detect a level of anger approaching that of a pre-teen kid who has been told they cant have their ice cream til they finish their dinner...

ry ry
September 16 2011, 08:20:07 AM
Mitten's ranting is starting to take on shades of a fallen despot broadcasting from his underground bunker, making progressively more implausible claims about being completely vindicated any day now as the vultures spiral overhead. I'm honestly not sure falling back on the time-honoured LOLITROLLU gambit will save our colourful ~internet politician~'s ~internet career~ if ccp are simply feeding csm platitudes and letting them sit at the top table whilst they continue to chip away at the eve playerbase's desire to keep playing.

Still, i like the extra layer of texture the CSM adds to the eve universe, and i still hold out hope that CCP can manage to stop the rot.

Mike deVoid
September 16 2011, 08:21:05 AM
This is completely retarded, even for you, mittens. You NEVER ramped up the media pressure in the first place. If I remember correctly, you said you were planning to do so but ... "oops" ... it happened of its own volition as the gaming media picked up on the issue before you got around to networking your contacts to drum up some bad press for ccp.

So you did nothing in the first place, decided to continue doing nothing (and spun it as a change of plans) and when CCP told you to watch out for what you were even thinking about doing (notwithstanding your denial) you boldly proclaim that it is indeed the fearless way forward. Brilliant. Not.

You don't remember it correctly.

ry ry
September 16 2011, 08:32:54 AM
This is completely retarded, even for you, mittens. You NEVER ramped up the media pressure in the first place. If I remember correctly, you said you were planning to do so but ... "oops" ... it happened of its own volition as the gaming media picked up on the issue before you got around to networking your contacts to drum up some bad press for ccp.

So you did nothing in the first place, decided to continue doing nothing (and spun it as a change of plans) and when CCP told you to watch out for what you were even thinking about doing (notwithstanding your denial) you boldly proclaim that it is indeed the fearless way forward. Brilliant. Not.

I applaud your attempts to bring some ccp dev love onto the turd that is existence in 0.0 space. Your performance on the whole :monoclegate: debacle, in contrast, has been laughable and impotent.
Nah, he really did. say what you want about mittani, and god knows it's fun to, but he turns his flair for self-promotion to other ends quite adeptly. ccp generally respond relatively effectively to negative press, so it's not such a terrible idea either. CCP are a business, and at the core of any business the focus is on revenue and in turn profit. If you can influence their ability to make money then they will move - the accountants at CCP couldn't give a fucking shit about engine trails or cyno effects and the CFO carries more clout than CCP Random Developer.

Internally they probably think he's a bit of a wanker for effectively blackmailing them, but rebuilding bridges is his problem not ours and as long as the blackmail is focused on making the game better (or at least less broken) then it's actually a very effective use of the media and to be applauded for Getting Shit Done.

I guess the balancing act is to make sure there is enough impetus for ccp to fix stuff, but not so much momentum it results in potential players dismissing eve because of it.

two step
September 16 2011, 12:42:51 PM
Based on this post alone, I will not even consider voting for you come CSM7 election season, and I will encourage others to not vote for you either. You're a suckup wannabe bureaucrat in training IMO.

So I have more work to do to achieve mittens-level hatred. I will work on that.

Mike deVoid
September 16 2011, 12:50:13 PM
So I have more work to do to achieve mittens-level hatred. I will work on that.
Just hint that your Alliance has found more isk-fountain exploits and CCP have yet again covered your back with gold-plated petitions ;).

ry ry
September 16 2011, 01:00:09 PM
So I have more work to do to achieve mittens-level hatred. I will work on that.
the mittani is a cartoon character. he's either one of the best roleplayers in eve or a borderline mental health case.

the reason people don't like you is for you relentlessly self-referential posting and proven trackrecord of being an unapologetic cheat.

you are, quite literally, the lesser of two evils.

a mitten
September 16 2011, 01:17:22 PM
Maybe you should off yourself for being hilariously predictable; this is exactly what some of us expected you would do. This is the course of action you take when you wanted to stick to the carrot, rather than the stick, from the beginning. It's not a good idea to back off of CCP because they'll go back to doing what they always do; say hollow words and make delivery time frames for player requested features some time between soon™ and never.

If Torfifrans still has even a portion of the same power as before, what on earth makes you think the status quo has or will change?

And so we go back to the Monolithic CCP Conspiracy Theory. It's easy for you guys to chant your mantras - "TEAM AWESOME", maybe get a little two minutes hate at Torfi - but essentially your 'question' is based on your theories about CCP disagreeing with the truth (fractured company with disparate interests and zones of control).

It would be comic, were it not so pathetic, to see people adopting a stance of 'mature political wisdom' wagging their fingers at me about how a single tactic is the only method of accomplishing goals. Only stick, ever, for the shitheap lunatics! Rage, rage, rage against Torfi!

The carrot continues to work quite well in some areas, and in some areas the carrot appeared to be working but now we must stick. If you don't understand why a new CSM administration must have at least /attempted/ carrot in the zone where we must now stick, well - you probably actually read Virt's posts.

a mitten
September 16 2011, 01:18:07 PM
the mittani is a cartoon character. he's either one of the best roleplayers in eve or a borderline mental health case.

the reason people don't like you is for you relentlessly self-referential posting and proven trackrecord of being an unapologetic cheat.

you are, quite literally, the lesser of two evils.

~~~~~there's nothing cartoony about tildes or fuzziness~

a mitten
September 16 2011, 01:19:14 PM
Never stop posting though. I find you grandiose delusions quite amusing ...

Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane

Virtuozzo
September 16 2011, 01:23:28 PM
TEAM AWESOME

Which "team" would that be :P

Mike deVoid
September 16 2011, 01:29:20 PM
relentlessly self-referential posting
I can't understand what you mean by this unless you mean to criticise him telling us about what he has said or done. Which doesn't make any sense.


proven trackrecord of being an unapologetic cheat
Aren't the facts that members of his alliance cheated (and were eventually punished for doing so) and that two_step ~greyknighted~ by giving the facts as they occurring? Plus, I don't remember him being unapologetic. Basically, he came across as much more of an adult than most of the flaming retards on this forum who act like events IN A GAME tell you a lot about how the person acts IRL. Yep, you are all literally as stupid as the carebears who send mails full of angry tears when they are ganked in game.

Mike deVoid
September 16 2011, 01:30:40 PM
Which "team" would that be :P
You and barth should be telling us, tbh. Because I can't keep up with the floating definitions you have both used over the last year.

ry ry
September 16 2011, 01:39:08 PM
Mike, your argument assumes i'm internet-angry. I'm really not, although i am currently drafting a teary three page evemail about how upsetting your lack of approval is.

as for two step, he makes a lot of factual statements in the first person without actually offering up anything in the way of content, and his stance on tracking-gate was simply that they petitioned it and were told it was fine so they carried on. That particular thing is old news and there really isn't a great deal to add beyond reiterating that if something is so terribly broken due to some mathematical fuckery, it's fairly safe to assume that exploiting the mechanic is dodgy ground and dead certain that everybody in any position of seniority within that alliance was complicit in it's use.

his political credentials aren't in question, and i'm sure that he's a lovely bloke out of game, but i was commenting on his in-game persona's level of public loathing vs the mittani's, and in that instance there no contest. i'm also quite sure he doesn't actually need a whiteknight, but it is a lovely sentiment nonetheless.

Pattern
September 16 2011, 01:51:04 PM
Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane
QTF.

And

:psyduck:

Marlona Sky
September 16 2011, 02:06:47 PM
This thread is kinda

B

O

R

I

N

G


When does the winter expansion hit TQ? Everyone can go on and on about this and that. Facts and conspiracy theories and blah, blah, blah... But the reality is, the only thing that counts is what hits TQ. That's it. Then we will all see what is what.

The last few pages of this thread remind me of this:
4SK0cUNMnMM&feature=fvst

Virtuozzo
September 16 2011, 02:09:07 PM
floating definitions

For that, you have to look at CCP.

Darius III
September 16 2011, 02:25:05 PM
What is really going on VS what people think is going on is separated by a gulf wider than your mothers knickers.

I was going to make a :seriouspost: and describe to who/what is wrong, after reading the posts in this thread I can see that it wouldn't matter much. Suffice to say people are retarded.

Virtuozzo
September 16 2011, 02:29:33 PM
people are retarded.

Welcome to the human species.

XenosisReaper
September 16 2011, 03:16:42 PM
http://couldhavetakenitsolo.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-mittani.jpg?w=256&h=256

:popcorn:

Rakshasa The Cat
September 16 2011, 03:21:18 PM
http://couldhavetakenitsolo.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-mittani.jpg?w=256&h=256

:popcorn:
Needs googles.

two step
September 16 2011, 05:22:06 PM
Mike, your argument assumes i'm internet-angry. I'm really not, although i am currently drafting a teary three page evemail about how upsetting your lack of approval is.

as for two step, he makes a lot of factual statements in the first person without actually offering up anything in the way of content, and his stance on tracking-gate was simply that they petitioned it and were told it was fine so they carried on. That particular thing is old news and there really isn't a great deal to add beyond reiterating that if something is so terribly broken due to some mathematical fuckery, it's fairly safe to assume that exploiting the mechanic is dodgy ground and dead certain that everybody in any position of seniority within that alliance was complicit in it's use.

his political credentials aren't in question, and i'm sure that he's a lovely bloke out of game, but i was commenting on his in-game persona's level of public loathing vs the mittani's, and in that instance there no contest. i'm also quite sure he doesn't actually need a whiteknight, but it is a lovely sentiment nonetheless.

Firstly, I think I have been offering up a *lot* of content, just not in the first post of this thread (because of NDA). You guys only have 2 factual CSM posters, me and Trebor. D3 and mittens love to troll you, but we actually try to talk. I think if you go through my post history, you would see that.

Once again, I go into a lot of detail about the tracking thing on my blog - http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2011/03/infinite-tracking-wtf.html. I certainly accepted some personal responsibility, even though 80% of the time it was being used, I was taking a break from EVE.

Anyway, we should have a new statement pretty soon about the follow up meeting we had today, just need to get the CCP NDA approval for it. It doesn't have any real facts in it, but it does have some timeframes.

a mitten
September 16 2011, 05:48:28 PM
I don't troll that often. I might tell people to kill themselves, but that sentiment is entirely genuine. vOv

XenosisReaper
September 16 2011, 05:51:06 PM
I don't troll that often. I might tell people to kill themselves, but that sentiment is entirely genuine. vOv

:obama: Kill yourself.

Frug
September 16 2011, 06:31:42 PM
QTF.

And

:psyduck:Except you're just like Barth whenever any balance topics come up. Just saying.

This thread is gold.

smuggo
September 16 2011, 06:54:12 PM
4SK0cUNMnMM&feature=fvst

You know, I must have been indoctrinated by work, but all I saw when I watched that clip was Kirk applying a proper manual handling technique and the Gorn traveling down a short road to a slipped disc or worse.

noobcake
September 16 2011, 06:54:41 PM
Needs monocle.

fyp

Dodgy Past
September 16 2011, 11:19:23 PM
snipped