Status of emergency summit minutes?

[Aypse]

:psyccp:

[Sponk]

status: "lol"

[Virtuozzo]

status: "under discussion for style and impact of words"

[two step]

I can't/don't want to say too much, but your CSM and CCP are working on this every day. It certainly should have been a simple process, but things haven't happened the way they should. Hopefully we should have something ready asap, and everyone on the CSM would agree that the delay is not acceptable.

[Aypse]

I can't/don't want to say too much, but your CSM and CCP are working on this every day. It certainly should have been a simple process, but things haven't happened the way they should. Hopefully we should have something ready asap, and everyone on the CSM would agree that the delay is not acceptable.

It seems as though the last 2-3 releases of meeting minutes have been delayed by quite a bit and that seems odd. I am on several boards and we expect minutes to be available in 5-10 business days and sooner if there were absent board members & the business is time sensitive. While the CSM meetings are much longer than an average board meeting, that doesn't seem to justify the two month time lapse between meeting and release. It seems to me that two weeks to write them, 1 week for CCP to review and submit changes, and then another week to reconcile CCP suggestions with the CSM would be sufficient.

I understand that CSM is a volunteer position and we all have lives, but if someone doesn't have the time then don't volunteer in the first place. We are almost at two months now and that delay just seems a bit ridiculous on an issue that was of such concern to the community. Maybe it isn't the CSM causing the 2 month delay..but the CSM are the only ones who actually have their eyes & ears open to constructive criticism...so that is whom I am addressing.

[Leboe]

I can't/don't want to say too much, but your CSM and CCP are working on this every day. It certainly should have been a simple process, but things haven't happened the way they should. Hopefully we should have something ready asap, and everyone on the CSM would agree that the delay is not acceptable.


Communication issues surrounding a document outlining how a massive clusterfuck was just communication issues, n1.

[Xiang Jiao]

I assume CCP will continue to use this stalling tactic with the CSM so that the players forget exactly why they were mad in the first place.

[noobcake]

I can't/don't want to say too much, but your CSM and CCP are working on this every day. It certainly should have been a simple process, but things haven't happened the way they should. Hopefully we should have something ready asap, and everyone on the CSM would agree that the delay is not acceptable.

i dont think it's NDA for you to tell us what is taking so long. Tell us what's holding this up please? I know 1 month of the year is :vacationtime: in iceland or whatever, but this sensitive shit should have been addressed BEFORE vaction, not after.

[definatelynotKKassandra]

i dont think it's NDA for you to tell us what is taking so long. Tell us what's holding this up please? I know 1 month of the year is :vacationtime: in iceland or whatever, but this sensitive shit should have been addressed BEFORE vaction, not after.
A post I made a week ago in the 'summit topics' thread:


2.5 weeks and counting to 'finalise some of the language'?

I see two possibilities: 1) One or both of of CCP and the CSM is completely incapable of pulling their fucking finger out of their goddamn arsehole or 2) there are substantive disagreements between CCP and the CSM about what was agreed/committed to, hence wrangling over what gets made public.

So which is it?

[Virtuozzo]

I can't/don't want to say too much, but your CSM and CCP are working on this every day. It certainly should have been a simple process, but things haven't happened the way they should. Hopefully we should have something ready asap, and everyone on the CSM would agree that the delay is not acceptable.

It is a simple process. And the delay is indeed not acceptable. But no amount of internal tough talk is going to solve the causes of those delays. It's just a posturing angle. Remember the topic a few months ago on pressure management? With CCP establishing the CSM as an advocacy group, following the removal of any & all useful instruments by the chair from the CSM, it's all there is to it now. CSM can talk and post and push, but it is at the mercy of CCP's work ethics - which in spite of the efforts of select few is simply nonexistant in these matters .. "sense of urgency" does not exist. It only flares up under pressure, external and visible pressure. Public light, so to speak. Go back over previous crises, the only times CCP got in gear properly were those times where - regardless of details or specificity of events - CCP was aware that its actions were visible by name, by action, by timeline, on a public stage.


CCP's priorities have shifted, quite considerably, and it is visible in their care factors. That does not mean a very select few are not trying to push or pull, but it does mean that it's subject to an internal tug of war with absence of care for what customers care for. Which is understandable, ofcourse. But really, don't let anyone tell you that those holidays had such a tremendous impact, or that it takes a week to flag a senior to go over a paragraph =P

Effectively speaking (and yes I realise this may be a scary thought) you are dealing now with the same "lobby" concept (as CCP calls it) as they operate by. Have a think on that =P

[two step]

i dont think it's NDA for you to tell us what is taking so long. Tell us what's holding this up please? I know 1 month of the year is :vacationtime: in iceland or whatever, but this sensitive shit should have been addressed BEFORE vaction, not after.

Some of the delay was because of vacations. The rest was/is a disagreement about the content of the minutes. For some reason, CCP is much more concerned with the contents of these minutes...

[noobcake]

Some of the delay was because of vacations. The rest was/is a disagreement about the content of the minutes. For some reason, CCP is much more concerned with the contents of these minutes...

i know theyre more concerned with these meetings than other meeting minutes. But really, it's not like they have a solid reputation of releasing minutes in a timely manner that they can fall back on. I really have a hard time understanding how difficult it can be to transribe the meeting and then write minutes based off of the transcript.

I actually used to be responsible for getting meeting minutes together at my old job and if I didnt have them together within a week, i'd get shit for it.

It's absolutely inexcusable for this process to take any longer than two weeks.

[Evelgrivion]

i know theyre more concerned with these meetings than other meeting minutes. But really, it's not like they have a solid reputation of releasing minutes in a timely manner that they can fall back on. I really have a hard time understanding how difficult it can be to transribe the meeting and then write minutes based off of the transcript.

I actually used to be responsible for getting meeting minutes together at my old job and if I didnt have them together within a week, i'd get shit for it.

It's absolutely inexcusable for this process to take any longer than two weeks.

The fact that it has taken this long is indicative of how strongly it places in the priority list of those responsible for going through the notes. The time it takes for paper work to get done is directly proportional to how much people care about it. None of it takes that long to do once you get around to it.

[Xiang Jiao]

a disagreement about the content of the minutes

Should we expect them to be more heavily censored than usual this time around?

[Mynxee]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

[XenosisReaper]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

[bobgainsfield]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

Sadly I can't see our current CSM being willing to invest any of their precious non-existent political capital on a move like that... although I'd certainly hope the move would shock CCP a little.

[Aypse]

This is just more bullshit piled on top of past bullshit. CCP talk and talk and talk about improving this and that, including communication. When it comes down to it though, it's just lots of talk without significant action. CCP have been talking about improving communication since ::T20:: and they are still shoveling that line of crap.

[noobcake]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

This would be the best thing this CSM has done.

[Evelgrivion]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

http://i.imgur.com/f12A4.jpg

[Aypse]

For a loltwist, the CSM is probably arguing for more opaque language and CCP for more frank disclosure.

[Virtuozzo]

Some of the delay was because of vacations. The rest was/is a disagreement about the content of the minutes. For some reason, CCP is much more concerned with the contents of these minutes...

I can understand disagreement on content, as well as style. The vacation part, I am sorry, it is just bullshit. Even at CCP, it is possible to punch through issues and networks. Even dependancies of people & their connections (something which can be solved by simple things like filing something as part of a decision or release process internally - hint: as long as under the table the grandstanding is compensated by personal loltalk of "don't worry man" it's not gonna go anywhere).

Every time there is any delay whatsoever, you dig a bit and you find the same situations: absence of authority, absence of care or outright refusal shoved under a blanket of :lolcommunications:

CCP as a company DOES NOT SUCK AT COMMUNICATIONS. Really. They are quite good at it, when push comes to shove. The problem is that each and every time individuals choose to create holes there. When that does not happen, CCP is quite (no pun intended) agile. But CSM post stakeholder now lol advocate is simply not part of any consolidated chain. You're only of interest for exposure and advocacy now.

Caveat:
Yes, it is not that clear cut, there are other factors. Primarily however that of amateurism (which includes an unwillingness to establish best practices and learn from those). This is CCP, where people preset two weeks of programming time just to deal with a bloody patch - how hard is it to learn from years and years and years of the same shit happening again and those reserved allocations not making one bloody difference whatsoever? And CCP wonders about the costs of R&D and technical debts, tsk tsk tsk.

It does not matter whether that is Capsuleer + CCP Business Development, EON + "en attendant CCP" for account management integration, Battleclinic for FF, and so forth. Not to mention the countless media ventures that are slapped in the face and none of those events or contacts ever being passed on internally. It is not without reason that Marketing at the fanfest roundtables went "WTF" when confronted with a quick & dirty array of similar fuckups that have cost CCP dearly in exposure and innovative opportunities for sales and development over the years.

Rule of thumb which even Nordic Gaming and IGI (predominantly Icelandic, so that says A HELL OF A LOT) flat out acknowledges with CCP: if you have a delay, you are simply not dealing with someone in any position to make decisions or effectuate communication internally OR that person in that position just does not give a shit.

Draw your conclusions, I'd say. Remember what makes CCP act and engage? Pressure management. Is that a negative thing? God no, for all sides that is a good thing. If it weren't, this worlds industries would not have internalised these things since well, a fair few hundred years now.


Two Step, you had that nice blog arranged right? Well, there you go. Public debate on progression of affairs, questionrounds to readers, put a poll on it, and so forth. Add a few interviews. You'll be amazed of the results. Accountability is not a bad thing, at all. It does not damage relations, far from. It provides a foundation to work on, to create results, and be friends pleased with results.

[Evelgrivion]

CCP is delaying things to try to get a super positive message and buy more time to let apathy set in; do the right thing, not the PR positive thing, CSM.

[1of9]

This CSM is a joke. they bend over and open widely to ccp...

Just look who's chairman ... no other outcome was expected.

[noobcake]

CSM is a joke

FYP

[Grarr Dexx]

Sorry to butt in so late but... emergency meeting? What for?

[Lana Torrin]

Sorry to butt in so late but... emergency meeting? What for?
No one remembers.

[Sponk]

No one remembers.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JRCyqZfAnYU/SBn2ZBqAueI/AAAAAAAAA_g/KNWn49SWriM/s400/mission-accomplished.png

[Evelgrivion]

No one remembers.

For anyone with a serious curiosity, it basically tl;dr's to:

CCP's continued neglect of the space game in favor of Incarna built up into a right proper shitstorm when the May issue of Fearless leaked out. In it, CCP described its desires to add MicroTransactions and other monetizations wherever possible to milk the "cash cow" that they see EVE Online as, including ludicrously overpriced clothes and, probably in the not too distant future, power items (CCP never said no). Adding more fuel to the fire, after this started, an internal E-mail from Hilmar leaked out that called it "expected" and to "watch what people do, not what they say." People started leaving in large enough numbers to make CCP summon the CSM to Iceland and start a PR blitz to stem the bleeding while they continue to use EVE Online as a constantly refilling piggy bank to fund the projects they actually care about.

The extraordinary delays to the minutes, minimal investment in EVE Online where possible except for headline generating features, etc, all point to a company that is tired of the EVE Online product and are just looking to make money on it for as long as possible. Meanwhile, the talented programmers, various overworked QA personnel and foreigners with a way out are bailing from CCP, probably due to their consistent failure to execute and unwillingness to actually invest in the game that they joined the company to work on in the first place.

Welcome to bittervetsville.

If you've been paying attention to what CCP's been up to, they haven't been fixing any of the problems that kicked this off. CCP has collectively worked damn hard to delay, buying time for new "shiny" distractions and features to keep money flowing from EVE.

[Grarr Dexx]

This is still about that? How fucking much do they have to edit the minutes? This is retarded.

[Evelgrivion]

This is still about that? How fucking much do they have to edit the minutes? This is retarded.

What makes you think the protracted release has anything to do with CCP trying to be expedient about it?

[Lana Torrin]

What makes you think the protracted release has anything to do with CCP trying to be expedient about it?

Its exactly what I was hinting at.. If they would have been release quickly then everyone would have jumped on them and picked them to bits and then raged again (regardless of what was in them). CCP delaying them means people 'calm down' and then they can release them quietly and hope no one picks them up and looks at them, thus avoiding a potential flash point for more rage.

TL;DR: CCP do care.. about their image.

[Grarr Dexx]

It's like they're trying to lose all their credit on purpose.

[Evelgrivion]

It's like they're trying to lose all their credit on purpose.

Credit among who? The people who actually pay attention? It takes about nine months for players to start paying attention, and they don't need players who stick around for longer than that. Fresh blood who like to buy $40 pairs of e-pants are the wave of the future!

CCP isn't looking to get rid of credit, they're trying to turn outrage into apathy; that way, they can do whatever the hell they want without pesky long time customers telling everyone else how CCP is ruining the game we love.

To state it as obviously as possible, the guys in charge of EVE Online do not want the Veteran players to stick around mucking things up for them and their awesomeness.

[Lana Torrin]

To state it as obviously as possible, the guys in charge of EVE Online do not want the Veteran players to stick around mucking things up for them and their awesomeness.

I'm sorry speak up I cant hear you over the sound of robots exploding.

[two step]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

I'm trying to get some other CSM's to do this, especially the ones ahead of me on the list....

[Leboe]

I'm trying to get some other CSM's to do this, especially the ones ahead of me on the list....

politics > results

[noobcake]

I'm trying to get some other CSM's to do this, especially the ones ahead of me on the list....

stop being a pussy. Clearly CSM is being marginalized by the people up top, and no one gives an actual shit about you guys anymore. Just do it :D

[Xiang Jiao]

Its exactly what I was hinting at.. If they would have been release quickly then everyone would have jumped on them and picked them to bits and then raged again (regardless of what was in them). CCP delaying them means people 'calm down' and then they can release them quietly and hope no one picks them up and looks at them, thus avoiding a potential flash point for more rage.

TL;DR: CCP do care.. about their image.

And here, I thought that were carefully crafting a definition for Eve Microtransations, specifying if they would be just clothes (vanity only), or involve additional pay to win type items in the future. Wasn't this the whole point of the summit, anyway? Can the council confirm if we will finally be getting an answer on this?

[bobgainsfield]

Can the council confirm if we will finally be getting an answer on this?

Expect any such answer to be highly NDA'ed.

[Lana Torrin]

Expect any such answer to be highly NDA'ed.

I expect the answer to just be a no..

In what interest is it of CCP to define microtransactions in eve? From a business standpoint streightjacketing them selves like that is idiotic. If they define it as clothing only, in 2 years when someone turns around and say 'hey you know what, people will pay for gold ammo' (example only) then they will be dragged out and shot in the press once again. They are trying to avoid the idea that they are evil and continually lie to their customers to get their money, not encourage it.. If however they given themselves some wiggle room then in 2 years when they do something stupid they can always claim they haven't broken their promise, we just misinterpreted it.

[Aypse]

And here, I thought that were carefully crafting a definition for Eve Microtransations, specifying if they would be just clothes (vanity only), or involve additional pay to win type items in the future. Wasn't this the whole point of the summit, anyway? Can the council confirm if we will finally be getting an answer on this?

This is a good fucking point. The purpose of the emergency summit was to define the vision and communicate that accurately to the players. 60+ days after the summit, the extent of MTs in Eve still can't be defined? Good thing i am not CSM, I would have thrown in the towel in disgust long ago.

[Lana Torrin]

This is a good fucking point. The purpose of the emergency summit was to define the vision and communicate that accurately to the players. 60+ days after the summit, the extent of MTs in Eve still can't be defined? Good thing i am not CSM, I would have thrown in the towel in disgust long ago.

But then you wouldn't get to fly to iceland once in a while and get free beer and play under the table hand holding with CCP devs...

[noobcake]

I would have thrown in the towel in disgust long ago.


The scary thing is...this is exactly what CCP is hoping for. They dont want to have to be checked on any longer and it appears theyre going to do whatever they can to troll the CSM members into discontent.

[Lana Torrin]

The scary thing is...this is exactly what CCP is hoping for. They dont want to have to be checked on any longer and it appears theyre going to do whatever they can to troll the CSM members into discontent.

I doubt this TBH. The CSM was a good publicity stunt for CCP (I believe they even had good intentions when starting it) and letting it die quietly is the only way out without turning all that good publicity in to bad. Its probably true that a few (team awesome) at CCP have never wanted the CSM and have worked to take them down, but this is probably because they are bad at their jobs and having someone highlight this would be bad for their career rather than actual malicious intent. (Self preservation)

[Evelgrivion]

I doubt this TBH. The CSM was a good publicity stunt for CCP (I believe they even had good intentions when starting it) and letting it die quietly is the only way out without turning all that good publicity in to bad. Its probably true that a few (team awesome) at CCP have never wanted the CSM and have worked to take them down, but this is probably because they are bad at their jobs and having someone highlight this would be bad for their career rather than actual malicious intent. (Self preservation)

It gets even scarier for Team Awesome when you consider how low CCP's standards are to begin with.

[Malcanis]

But if he did that he'd be risking his opportunity to not release timely minutes later!

Incidentally we can hardly blame CCP for not communicating with us when the CSM communicates even less.

[Tsubutai]

But if he did that he'd be risking his opportunity to not release timely minutes later!

Incidentally we can hardly blame CCP for not communicating with us when the CSM communicates even less.
What do you think they should be communicating, and how often? AFAICT, they've laid out their priorities and have been up front about the cause of the delay of the minutes; it seems that the problems and holdups are mostly on CCP's end.

[smagd]

For proper tinfoilhattery you only have to assume CCP forged the voting results to make Mittens chair of CSM so he can help them sell their shenanigans.

[Mynxee]

What do you think they should be communicating, and how often? AFAICT, they've laid out their priorities and have been up front about the cause of the delay of the minutes; it seems that the problems and holdups are mostly on CCP's end.

Regular (2x a month), even if informal, updates about what CSM stuff is going on behind the scenes? Not the details of conversations, but maybe just some idea that something, anything, or nothing is going on. I mean, Trebor hasn't posted on his blog for almost two months. In CSM5, we had regular meetings that were publicly documented so people had a sense that there was activity. With CSM6, there's been almost no communication since that emergency summit. What is offered is ridiculously brief and provides zero insights into not only what is going on but the attitudes/opinions--however general--of the CSM delegates themselves regarding the current status of things or what CSM work they are doing. Hell, even Trebor (who in CSM5 was very present and communicative to the community) has posted very damn little that I've seen--even about his recent crowdsourcing exercise...except to answer questions about process and post results. It's like all the CSM6 members have been turned into Stepford Delegates.

[Mynxee]

Posted today by CCP Xhagen on EVE-O in Jita Park (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559323&page=1#19):


Since I am the one responsible for getting the minutes out I'm the guy that is responsible for the delays.

Here is the process so far:
-I transcribed the initial text and sent to the CSM for commenting
-Having gotten it back relatively quickly I sent it to the CCP people that need to read and comment
-Sent the re-reviewed back to the CSM
-The CSM objected to many of the reviews done
-Edits have been going back and forth for a while now

It has always been the aim to release any minutes from CCP/CSM meetings with the approval of everyone that participated. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not. When the matters of tone and semantics come up the best way is to simply go through it step by step and resolve the differences. And this takes time.

I realize that many are waiting for these minutes, but we want to get this right - it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to. Specially when the subject is volatile and sensitive.

The main point is that we will release these minutes, but we will only release them when all parties have accepted what is being written in the minutes.


"...it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to." What happens if that is impossible? It stays on the editing negotiation merry-go-round forever or simply gets tucked into File 13 when people stop caring?

[Bartholomeus Crane]

"...it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to." What happens if that is impossible? It stays on the editing negotiation merry-go-round forever or simply gets tucked into File 13 when people stop caring?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: yeeeeeeeeeees.

[two step]

But if he did that he'd be risking his opportunity to not release timely minutes later!

Incidentally we can hardly blame CCP for not communicating with us when the CSM communicates even less.

Yeah, I mean it isn't like you have CSM members posting in threads and stuff. We say nothing at all.


Regular (2x a month), even if informal, updates about what CSM stuff is going on behind the scenes? Not the details of conversations, but maybe just some idea that something, anything, or nothing is going on. I mean, Trebor hasn't posted on his blog for almost two months. In CSM5, we had regular meetings that were publicly documented so people had a sense that there was activity. With CSM6, there's been almost no communication since that emergency summit. What is offered is ridiculously brief and provides zero insights into not only what is going on but the attitudes/opinions--however general--of the CSM delegates themselves regarding the current status of things or what CSM work they are doing. Hell, even Trebor (who in CSM5 was very present and communicative to the community) has posted very damn little that I've seen--even about his recent crowdsourcing exercise...except to answer questions about process and post results. It's like all the CSM6 members have been turned into Stepford Delegates.

I'm sorry, I actually read the minutes of the CSM meetings. I don't think I learned all that much from them about what *CCP* thought about stuff, all I learned was what you guys thought about the specific issue you were discussing, and 99% of those issues don't end up being addressed by CCP. The entire Assembly Hall/voting on issues thing is not all that useful, IMHO. I'd much rather have stuff like Greyscale's mountains of threads in features & ideas discussing specific issues and having CCP actually pay attention directly to players.

The reason you haven't heard much from us since the summit is mostly because not much has been going on. We have had some really good discussions/interactions with some of the devs in the CSM internal forums, but with most of CCP (and some of the CSM) on vacation, not much has been going on.

I (and Trebor and Whitetree) have been guests on a couple of podcasts talking about CSM stuff in the past month. I post here, I read most threads here. If you have specific questions, please ask away.

[definatelynotKKassandra]

If you have specific questions, please ask away.

WHERE IS MINUTES

(Couldn't resist, sorry).

What actions will the CSM take if they have been unable to reach agreement with CCP over the content of the minutes in say, a week?

[Mynxee]

Thanks, two step. It is very difficult to keep track of where you guys are being active, to be quite honest. It would be much appreciated if you'd make a thread in Jita Park that you update with links to podcasts, significant forum discussions, etc., that you are engaged in so that the community has an easy way of knowing about and finding that stuff. And ask one of the forum mods to sticky it so it's always at the top. That would give you something to point people at when they start asking what the CSM has been doing and probably also encourage more positive engagement from the community. I'm assuming that is what you want.

[bobgainsfield]

What actions will the CSM take if they have been unable to reach agreement with CCP over the content of the minutes in say, a week?

Wait another week! But in all seriousness, what exactly do we expect the CSM to do? We already know they won't take any of the various non-official avenues to release the minutes.

two step, I'm personally curious if a specific segment of the minutes are being delayed by either CCP, or a specific CSM member.

IE - we know that segments of the minutes are written by different CSM members, and then proofread by CCP. We know certain CSM members are perfectly happy to get snarky about their fellow members in certain segments and probably about CCP Dev's... but is there a specific segment thats being delayed?

Other than "Lolz, MT!"

[definatelynotKKassandra]

Wait another week! But in all seriousness, what exactly do we expect the CSM to do? We already know they won't take any of the various non-official avenues to release the minutes.


I don't know, but I hope they realise that just letting it drag on isn't acceptable.

[Sponk]

greyscale needs another blog post to further distil his roadmap.

[Helicity]

Since I'm now unbanned, just forward me the unedited notes so I can release them for you and be re-banned post-haste :P

[Mynxee]

Wait another week! But in all seriousness, what exactly do we expect the CSM to do?

I don't know about anyone else, but for me it's good enough if they just communicate consistently and substantively in ways that don't require me to go on a fucking treasure hunt to find their communications. Even if the minutes NEVER came out but there was discussion about the frustrations of the process, for example, that would get a check in the "+" column as far as I'm concerned. Not that my opinion matters LOL!

[bobgainsfield]

I don't know about anyone else, but for me it's good enough if they just communicate consistently and substantively in ways that don't require me to go on a fucking treasure hunt to find their communications. Even if the minutes NEVER came out but there was discussion about the frustrations of the process, for example, that would get a check in the "+" column as far as I'm concerned. Not that my opinion matters LOL!

That sounds like a job for the CSM Secretary! Honestly the playerbase as a whole would probably be vastly less annoyed at the CSM if they just had a central repository of various blog posts / interviews / forum posts for even just a few of the more active members.

From the wiki (yah yah, lolz)
Secretary and Vice-Secretary
Record minutes of all CSM meetings
Record all CSM votes and results
Publish an agenda for each CSM meeting
Publish meeting minutes within three days of the meeting

The current CSM did a really solid job of removing 100% of all accountability with their new flexible meetings... sort of ironic in hindsight, no?

[noobcake]

Since I'm now unbanned, just forward me the unedited notes so I can release them for you and be re-banned post-haste :P

i fully endorse this product or service

[two step]

WHERE IS MINUTES

(Couldn't resist, sorry).

What actions will the CSM take if they have been unable to reach agreement with CCP over the content of the minutes in say, a week?


Since I'm now unbanned, just forward me the unedited notes so I can release them for you and be re-banned post-haste :P

Gonna address these two together. Right now, the issue that *all* of the CSM have with the minutes is that CCP made edits that we don't feel reflect what actually happened at the summit. I'm not sure who you would blame for that, basically it is both of us holding up the minutes release at this point.

If they don't get posted soonish, we will be communicating our displeasure in a more public way. One option would be to release the notes, which as CCP Xhagen mentioned, were initially produced in this case by CCP, so they shouldn't have NDA'd material. We aren't going to let CCP just release whatever they want to release.

Glad to hear you are unbanned Helicity, your ban was entirely unfair, IMHO.

[Cogs]

I'm trying to get some other CSM's to do this, especially the ones ahead of me on the list....
You can release them and let the blame attributed to one of them.
Wait until the new version of the forums are released, take advantage of glaring security breaches and publish the list using one of the other CSMs characters. We'll get our minutes, they'll get sacked and you'll become slightly more senior. We all profit. http://static.pardus.at/img/std/forum/emoticons/yarr.png

[noobcake]

If they don't get posted soonish, we will be communicating our displeasure in a more public way.


sorry, but three months to "communicate" your displeasure in a more "public way"...that's just poor. These minutes should have been hammered out within a week. This controversy is almost as grand as the NGE, not in similarities because of changes to the game, but in similarities in the way both companies took blatant advantage of its customers and said "yeh they'll be ok with us taking a massive shit on them, and if theyre not, they can be replaced"

These meeting minutes should ALWAYS be priority number 1. CCP's reluctance to treat them as such just goes to show how highly (read: lowly) they think of you guys in the CSM. They are looking to play the victim role here, and know you wont approve anything they edit into the minutes. The longer this charade goes on, the less and less credibility both entities have.

[Steph]

If they don't get posted soonish, we will be communicating our displeasure in a more public way. O

Forgive my curtness, but when exactly is "soonish"? I think the CSM should set a definitive date. You guys aren't CCP after all.

[XenosisReaper]

sorry, but three months to "communicate" your displeasure in a more "public way"...that's just poor. These minutes should have been hammered out within a week. This controversy is almost as grand as the NGE, not in similarities because of changes to the game, but in similarities in the way both companies took blatant advantage of its customers and said "yeh they'll be ok with us taking a massive shit on them, and if theyre not, they can be replaced"

These meeting minutes should ALWAYS be priority number 1. CCP's reluctance to treat them as such just goes to show how highly (read: lowly) they think of you guys in the CSM. They are looking to play the victim role here, and know you wont approve anything they edit into the minutes. The longer this charade goes on, the less and less credibility both entities have.

I'm sorry, did you just compare incarna to NGE?

What the fuck are you smoking.

[noobcake]

I'm sorry, did you just compare incarna to NGE?

What the fuck are you smoking.

hey.....sup....I'm comparing the way both companies feel that their customer base is replaceable, and dont feel the need to cater to their veterans anymore.

I didnt say "OMG THIS IS THEIR NGE, EVE IS DOOMED"....but to look at the events in the days and weeks after incarna (player protests, forum threadnoughts, mass unsubs) and NOT think about the NGE would be a little shortsighted.

I lived through the NGE and will say with absolute certainty that no decision any gaming company can make about their MMO would EVER equal what happened during the NGE. But it'd be naive of people to say that there arent some similarities in SoE's and CCPs handling of the customer base during a crisis. Right down to the troll emails (in SoE's case, it was Smedley's arrogant "stay the course" press release) released by both figureheads.

[XenosisReaper]

Eh, I don't take much notice of what happens on the forums because less than 5% of the playerbase actually post there, the player protests were done by forum splergers and people who liked the pretty lightshow and the mass unsubs never actually happened.

All in all, I'm getting a bit tired with all the fucking butthurt shitsplerging about what is essentially a good spaceship game with some vanity/totally optional MT's on the side.

[Bartholomeus Crane]

Eh, I don't take much notice of what happens on the forums because less than 5% of the playerbase actually post there, the player protests were done by forum splergers and people who liked the pretty lightshow and the mass unsubs never actually happened.

All in all, I'm getting a bit tired with all the fucking butthurt shitsplerging about what is essentially a good spaceship game with some vanity/totally optional MT's on the side.

Forgot to take you medicine again?

[XenosisReaper]

Forgot to take you medicine again?

trolls trolling trolls etc

[bigmac]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.
Unfortunately, two step is not interested in being a hero. He's interested in running next year for a full-fledged seat on the CSM (he's an alternate now iirc). Politicians never want to do the right thing, they only want to say the right thing.

Rocking the boat isn't in his DNA, as evidenced by his responses a few months ago when I suggested the CSM walk out of the emergency summit in protest if things went badly in Rek.

[two step]

Unfortunately, two step is not interested in being a hero. He's interested in running next year for a full-fledged seat on the CSM (he's an alternate now iirc). Politicians never want to do the right thing, they only want to say the right thing.

Rocking the boat isn't in his DNA, as evidenced by his responses a few months ago when I suggested the CSM walk out of the emergency summit in protest if things went badly in Rek.

Or maybe I think you are dumb, and don't think walking out would have solved anything at all.

I know the "resign in protest" thing seems to be big with some folks, but can one of you point out a single time in RL history when that has actually done something constructive? If the issue is CCP not caring about what the CSM says, WTF would they care if some or all of us resign?

As for the next CSM election, we will see. I certainly understand why lots of folks don't run for re-election after a term on the CSM, and pre-CSM5 the terms were 6 months.

[definatelynotKKassandra]

I know the "resign in protest" thing seems to be big with some folks, but can one of you point out a single time in RL history when that has actually done something constructive.

Geoffrey Howe's resignation could be argued to have sparked the process to get rid of Margaret Thatcher?

Not that I think it would be a good idea for the CSM to resign in protest atm. It is very much a nuclear option that can only be used once and probably won't achieve anything.

I still think you need ot make some firm public commitments though. 'Soonish' is the kind of thing CCP would say.

[bigmac]

Or maybe I think you are dumb, and don't think walking out would have solved anything at all.
Maybe, but your continued refusal to see that walking out can be a very effective negotiating tactic boggles my mind. In hindsight, the CSM walking out of that emergency summit would have accomplished MUCH more than the apathy and indifference that have, 2 MONTHS LATER, been the only result.

[XenosisReaper]

Maybe, but your continued refusal to see that walking out can be a very effective negotiating tactic boggles my mind. In hindsight, the CSM walking out of that emergency summit would have accomplished MUCH more than the apathy and indifference that have, 2 MONTHS LATER, been the only result.

No, because then the CSM alternates would have taken their place OR CCP would have just not given a fuck and carried on.
CSM has no voting power withing CCP's decision making process, walking out would accomplish nothing other than removing our singular inside line to CCP.

[a mitten]

Maybe, but your continued refusal to see that walking out can be a very effective negotiating tactic boggles my mind. In hindsight, the CSM walking out of that emergency summit would have accomplished MUCH more than the apathy and indifference that have, 2 MONTHS LATER, been the only result.

Ultimatums and resignations are for the weak and accomplish nothing, which an even cursory investigation of past resignations would tell you. Teenagers and fools think they're great, though.

I'm about to let the cat out of the bag on the minutes controversy and begin turning some screws on CCP. The carrot has failed, it's sticktime.

[Leboe]

Ultimatums and resignations are for the weak and accomplish nothing, which an even cursory investigation of past resignations would tell you. Teenagers and fools think they're great, though.

I'm about to let the cat out of the bag on the minutes controversy and begin turning some screws on CCP. The carrot has failed, it's sticktime.


I thought the CSM was mostly pleased coming out of the summit, whats left to get worked up about?

[XenosisReaper]

I thought the CSM was mostly pleased coming out of the summit, whats left to get worked up about?

That was the PR line before they realized that CCP don't give a fuck about them

[a mitten]

That was the PR line before they realized that CCP don't give a fuck about them

you don't know shit and should prob kill yourself

[Evelgrivion]

Ultimatums and resignations are for the weak and accomplish nothing, which an even cursory investigation of past resignations would tell you. Teenagers and fools think they're great, though.

I'm about to let the cat out of the bag on the minutes controversy and begin turning some screws on CCP. The carrot has failed, it's sticktime.

With CCP's demonstrably PR driven product line, I hope you plan to beat them over the head along similar, PR related tangents. Good luck changing things for the better, though; you're going to need it.

[definatelynotKKassandra]

I thought the CSM was mostly pleased coming out of the summit, whats left to get worked up about?

I would assume that they were happy with what was agreed at the summit (or what they thought was agreed :)), but are now getting irritated by CCP trying to either twist what they said was 'okay' into a broader statement than they intended, or weasel out of commitments CCP made at the time but now wish they hadn't.

Note I said ASSUME mittens, please don't tell me to kill myself if I'm wrong. I'm not sure my fragile mind could take it.

[Leboe]

you don't know shit and should prob kill yourself


if you keep biting he will keep shitposting

[Evelgrivion]

I would assume that they were happy with what was agreed at the summit (or what they thought was agreed :)), but are now getting irritated by CCP trying to either twist what they said was 'okay' into a broader statement than they intended, or weasel out of commitments CCP made at the time but now wish they hadn't.

Note I said ASSUME mittens, please don't tell me to kill myself if I'm wrong. I'm not sure my fragile mind could take it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were getting worked up over a realization that CCP and the CSM were never on the same page and that CCP never had any intent to follow through with the things they'd agreed on in the first place. Time, and hopefully the minutes, will tell.

[Jester]

This is the very same CCP that said they had "CSM agreement" on gold Scorpions for sale in the NeX "for only a few months." CCP, hearing what they wanted to hear? Gasp! Shock! Surprise!

CCP has clearly learned little to nothing from what happened in June, and just as clearly think it's all blown over and it's all right again.

CSM6 deserves some blame here as well, though. The CSM clearly still feel that "pubbies don't matter" when it was those very same "pubbies" that gave CSM6 the enormous bargaining chip that they carried into the June summit. Communicating with those pubbies in the intervening two months and keeping them engaged on this issue would have been a smart move. A couple of podcast-participating CSM members in the last couple of weeks can't make up the difference.

[a mitten]

The issues brought up at the summit themselves have been dealt with to my satisfaction; I don't think CCP is about to turn around and start shitting out gold-ammo fueled Titans.

The issue with the minutes is the minutes themselves - the principle that they are authentic and sovereign voice of the CSM. The CSM will not allow them to be adulterated or massaged for 'tone' (ie, spin) to make the ugliness which was the June summit magically become a happy, easily resolved piffle. The version we approved of was settled more than a month and a half ago.

[Evelgrivion]

The issues brought up at the summit themselves have been dealt with to my satisfaction; I don't think CCP is about to turn around and start shitting out gold-ammo fueled Titans.

The issue with the minutes is the minutes themselves - the principle that they are authentic and sovereign voice of the CSM. The CSM will not allow them to be adulterated or massaged for 'tone' (ie, spin) to make the ugliness which was the June summit magically become a happy, easily resolved piffle. The version we approved of was settled more than a month and a half ago.

Then what's stopping you from putting out the version you approve of, exactly? If CCP is trying to fuck with you, fuck with them back. What will they do about it if you do, kick you out and disband CSM6? Do you think they want anything on that order of a PR clusterfuck?

[Al Simmons]

The issues brought up at the summit themselves have been dealt with to my satisfaction; I don't think CCP is about to turn around and start shitting out gold-ammo fueled Titans.

The issue with the minutes is the minutes themselves - the principle that they are authentic and sovereign voice of the CSM. The CSM will not allow them to be adulterated or massaged for 'tone' (ie, spin) to make the ugliness which was the June summit magically become a happy, easily resolved piffle. The version we approved of was settled more than a month and a half ago.

Man, I could not stand that. It's why the CSM's always seemed like a huge waste of time to me. I mean CSM 5 got wherever they got, with that year. And then CSM6 starts and you have to deal with an even bigger tidal wave of excrement coming out of CCP, and it's like... did they listen, do they give a fuck what you think and say? What we do? Of course they fucking don't.

I mean maybe the grunts do, and can sympathise, but the people who make the decisions? Fuck no. Are you still doing those "spotlight" things? I think your next one should be to get Hillmar and Zulu and most of the upper management at CCP fired and replaced with someone who knows what the fuck they are doing at all. I think the case could be made very strongly that these guys are holding CCP and Eve back massively.

Edit: oh I just thought of something, dunno if this is a new idea or not. Why not release two versions of the minutes: CCP's version and the CSM's version? So we get to read both and decide which one we like better or agree with more. Could work right? Of course CCP's PR dept would never allow that, but fuck em. If there's one group of people I will have first up against the wall come "the revolution", it will be PR people.

[a mitten]

I wouldn't worry about a lack of wrath on my part. As you can see from my record in EVE as well as my record with CCP, I'm a best friend/worst enemies type; it's all fun and games until you betray me. Many of the posters on FHC who are concerned about CSM issues began playing the game after 2007, so they missed the threadnaught and aren't aware of what I'm capable of when crossed. (Which is an interesting bit of hypocrisy; half of the anti-mittens narrative in the campaign related to me being a monstrous sociopath who enjoys the suffering of others (true enough), but often the same people imply unironically that I am like a fuzzy kitten who is easily co-opted. Monster or kitten, pick one.)

Today we have had something of a turning point and have begun drafting our next spotlight.

By the by, you don't go after CCP by violating the NDA or resigning in a tantrum or making long posts on niche forums that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase reads. That not only limits your power and gives CCP tremendous leverage against you, it only reaches a small audience and doesn't have leverage on CCP decisionmakers. You go after CCP in the media and on sites like Reddit, Slashdot and Digg, where you can use your control of thousands of players to seize the internet for a few days and ensure your message is inescapable. Personalize it, radicalize it, etc.

[Evelgrivion]

I wouldn't worry about a lack of wrath on my part. As you can see from my record in EVE as well as my record with CCP, I'm a best friend/worst enemies type; it's all fun and games until you betray me. Many of the posters on FHC who are concerned about CSM issues began playing the game after 2007, so they missed the threadnaught and aren't aware of what I'm capable of when crossed. (Which is an interesting bit of hypocrisy; half of the anti-mittens narrative in the campaign related to me being a monstrous sociopath who enjoys the suffering of others (true enough), but often the same people imply unironically that I am like a fuzzy kitten who is easily co-opted. Monster or kitten, pick one.)

Today we have had something of a turning point and have begun drafting our next spotlight.

By the by, you don't go after CCP by violating the NDA or resigning in a tantrum or making long posts on niche forums that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase reads. That not only limits your power and gives CCP tremendous leverage against you, it only reaches a small audience and doesn't have leverage on CCP decisionmakers. You go after CCP in the media and on sites like Reddit, Slashdot and Digg, where you can use your control of thousands of players to seize the internet for a few days and ensure your message is inescapable. Personalize it, radicalize it, etc.

To what end? I approve of telling the world that CCP is doing a horrible job, but what end goal are you looking for?

[Aypse]

Edit: oh I just thought of something, dunno if this is a new idea or not. Why not release two versions of the minutes: CCP's version and the CSM's version? So we get to read both and decide which one we like better or agree with more. Could work right? Of course CCP's PR dept would never allow that, but fuck em. If there's one group of people I will have first up against the wall come "the revolution", it will be PR people.

While that would be really insightful and entertaining, that just isn't how meeting minutes work. The purpose is so that they can be referenced at a later time and having two sets would just make them both pointless. Although, considering this is a video game...the entertainment value of releasing two sets might be better than their potential future usefulness (lulccpactuallygivingafuck).

[a mitten]

To what end? I approve of telling the world that CCP is doing a horrible job, but what end goal are you looking for?

It's my view that EVE is stagnating badly due to a lack of focus and resources to FiS. A wildly eccentric position, I'm aware. The teams actually working on FiS are clever and do a great job, but we badly need more humans working on "Eve Online"; anyone looking at the PCU numbers recently has noticed a stark leveling-off, which hardly speaks to a successful major expansion release. Besides Incursions, we haven't had new space content since Wormholes. Tyrannis, Incarna, Dominion either offered nothing for spaceships or made things worse than they were before the expansion.

[Evelgrivion]

It's my view that EVE is stagnating badly due to a lack of focus and resources to FiS. A wildly eccentric position, I'm aware. The teams actually working on FiS are clever and do a great job, but we badly need more humans working on "Eve Online"; anyone looking at the PCU numbers recently has noticed a stark leveling-off, which hardly speaks to a successful major expansion release. Besides Incursions, we haven't had new space content since Wormholes. Tyrannis, Incarna, Dominion either offered nothing for spaceships or made things worse than they were before the expansion.

To that end, we are on exactly the same page. The problem still lies with the characters in CCP whose job is to allocate company resources into feature development; what can you do about Torfifrans and his ilk, who put resources into whatever sounds like it will generate the best press headlines (actual delivery quality be damned) and looks to have their hearts set on changing the majority of EVE's playerbase into the kinds of idiots who buy dramatically overpriced pairs of digital pants?

[a mitten]

To that end, we are on exactly the same page. The problem still lies with the characters in CCP whose job is to allocate company resources into feature development; what can you do about Torfifrans and his ilk, who put resources into whatever sounds like it will generate the best press headlines (actual delivery quality be damned) and looks to have their hearts set on changing the majority of EVE's playerbase into the kinds of idiots who buy dramatically overpriced pairs of digital pants?

Given the PCU numbers post-Incarna, the pants conspiracy would seem to be failing. I don't think Torfi allocates much in the way of resources, though. Creative Director is an odd, alumnus sort of position.

Strategies don't always work. I don't promise success. Certain elements within CCP may - due to incompetence, kool-aid drinking or whatever - continue to neglect FiS and drive the game into the ground through slow stagnation and neglect. But we'll put pressure where we can. I'm a fond of the media, because I have a gift for demagoguery. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

[Evelgrivion]

Given the PCU numbers post-Incarna, the pants conspiracy would seem to be failing. I don't think Torfi allocates much in the way of resources, though. Creative Director is an odd, alumnus sort of position.

Strategies don't always work. I don't promise success. Certain elements within CCP may - due to incompetence, kool-aid drinking or whatever - continue to neglect FiS and drive the game into the ground through slow stagnation and neglect. But we'll put pressure where we can. I'm a fond of the media, because I have a gift for demagoguery. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

All points aside, they've been pushing out consistently overpriced clothing content faster than most things of late... :-P

I do hope you have success in un-tarnishing FiS, but I don't think anyone on the outside will have much luck against stalwart Icelandic nepotism.

[bobgainsfield]

Strategies don't always work. I don't promise success. Certain elements within CCP may - due to incompetence, kool-aid drinking or whatever - continue to neglect FiS and drive the game into the ground through slow stagnation and neglect. But we'll put pressure where we can. I'm a fond of the media, because I have a gift for demagoguery. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

Considering just how niche Eve Online is amongst the wider gaming public as a whole, I can't really imagine you'd have massive success with any sort of PR stunt, but it'd certainly be entertaining to watch. Any form of social media can be 'gamed' with enough people, and it'd be easy enough to rile up a massive outpouring... just... hard to see CCP really caring. It's certainly true that they only really engage in response to engagements of that scale... dunno, would be interesting to see but I'm unsure of what type of long-term change you could actually get.

[Mynxee]

You go after CCP in the media and on sites like Reddit, Slashdot and Digg, where you can use your control of thousands of players to seize the internet for a few days and ensure your message is inescapable. Personalize it, radicalize it, etc.

Sorta like, "We're gonna party like its Summer 2010" only better?

[Leboe]

Sorta like, "We're gonna party like its Summer 2010" only better?

summer 2011 took it up a notch, but



winter is coming

[Johnathan Walker]

Quick and to the point:

I don't pretend to know even 1% of what the hell is going on with Eve, or how to play, or whatever... so there's my professional resume. However, I do know when something smells and let me tell you, this affair smells worse than my ass in the morning.

What the HELL is going on? I see two things here:

1) CSM doing their thing, as it always has done in the past. CCP may or may not block, moderate, spin, filter, censor and so on for their goals. This raises a key question: What is the point of the CSM, then? It's no longer unbiased if it has to be "governed" by CCP, if you will.

2) With a public partnership (TransGaming Inc, ticker TNG), aren't there interests at stake here? Yes, it's market PVP of the real life kind... yes the stockholders (not stakeholders) care about their investment, yadda yadda, but seriously? I highly doubt CCP wants, or can afford, a PR clusterfuck at every turn. I am no Donald Trump, but for God's sakes I would be losing my comb-over if all I heard was how such and such company I partnered with is fucking over the client repeatedly. Bad press is bad press, period.

I don't give a crap how CSM/CCP runs its shit (well, I do but that's another threadnaught). I expect, and should receive, a certain "standard" of service. And if CSM past, present or future can't deliver on this, then we're wasting time and should just go play WoW. Oh yes, I went there.


"Insanity is defined as repeating a process expecting a different result" - Or Something Equally Thoughtful Sounding.


PS: The whole Hansoft fiasco brought to light by CSM5 was madness (tagging of CSM raised issues in the backlog). CCP tried to pass it off as something complex requiring months, blah blah blah. This was later proven to be very simple, estimated at 12 hours MAX (by yours truly). In my humblest and most naive of opinions, it's just the proverbial tip of the iceberg. <Insert TinFoil Here>. Basically stuff CCP has put on the "action backlog" is not tagged/tracked/documented/whatever in any manner whatsoever.... it just goes into the great gaping hole of... nothingness.

PS#2: Nice little loop de loop icon, as that's what's going on here. Needs more cowbell, though.

[Mynxee]

summer 2011 took it up a notch, but



winter is coming

Must agree...and that made me smile (currently on the third book in that series)

[Evelgrivion]

1) CSM doing their thing, as it always has done in the past. CCP may or may not block, moderate, spin, filter, censor and so on for their goals. This raises a key question: What is the point of the CSM, then? It's no longer unbiased if it has to be "governed" by CCP, if you will.

Welcome to the function CCP wanted in the first place; mouth piece.

[Lana Torrin]

you don't know shit and should prob kill yourself

You sir have demonstrated that you are completely irrelevant and incapable of running anything of value. If I were you I would consider not attempting to troll people with the same lack of intelligence that has failed to produce any results to date. I would ask that you follow your own advice but I feel this may be a little beyond you.

[Steph]

Honestly, I think Mitten's trolling is the best in this thread by far.

:popcorn:

[noobcake]

June summit

calendar will say september in less than 24 hours...get your shit sorted with CCP, or release the fucking minutes yourself.

[Xiang Jiao]

TransGaming works with many of the industry's leading developers and publishers to enable and distribute their games for the Mac and Linux/CE platforms...

What is the relationship exactly between CCP and Transgaming? Were they involved with the Mac client? From what I understand, the Mac client is barely playable (second hand information) and CCP stopped supporting Linux in the last couple years.


Just go play WoW.

Even Blizzard is losing subs. More competition can only be a good thing here.


The whole Hansoft fiasco brought to light by CSM5 was madness...

Did I miss something?

Also of note: the Chairman has returned!

[Sponk]

From what I understand, the Mac client is barely playable (second hand information) and CCP stopped supporting Linux in the last couple years.
It's pretty decent usually - it's just absolfuckinglutely terrible whenever there's a major patch because they literally don't get any major bugs fixed for days upon days (because half the time Transgaming has to fix it for them)

I believe CCP pays Transgaming to do the mac client.

[Virtuozzo]

Posted today by CCP Xhagen on EVE-O in Jita Park (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559323&page=1#19):



"...it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to." What happens if that is impossible? It stays on the editing negotiation merry-go-round forever or simply gets tucked into File 13 when people stop caring?

Don't worry, it is CCP. Style will always prevail over substance.

You'd think that if it mattered for more than style they would integrate the "process" with internal operations. The way it was agreed to evolve towards =P Nothing shocking, perhaps something like calling a review meeting internally rather than constantly going back & forth ...

[Bartholomeus Crane]

Honestly, I think Mitten's trolling is the best in this thread by far.

:popcorn:

Well said dear sir. Offering nothing of substance. Empty threats abound. Harking back to a glorious past that never was. The blowing a lot of hot air. Puffing up the chicken chest. And lots of folk going all for it. It's all there.

If Mittens had the capability of pulling off just 1% of all the things he desperately keeps shouting about, he'd had done it a long time ago when it still mattered. Now it's just more of the same old bollox and basically irrelevant. Lots of huffing and puffing but never any action. What a lame dick. Given how irrelevant most players think the CSM is by now (well done Mittens, got your wish), why wouldn't CCP just ignore another burst of empty noise from that direction? Would you do anything different in their place? Hell, the CSM could collectively resign today and it wouldn't make much of a splash tomorrow, and CCP still wouldn't give a shit. The ones at CCP who call the shots just keep it around to laugh and point at, and to have a pity snicker at those internally still trying to work with it somehow. A red-haired stepchild that got a little uppity some time ago but that's now so slow-witted as to be only useful for taking the trash out.

And here he is, still puffing himself up like he is somebody. What a joke.

[Mynxee]

Did I miss something?

Re the Hansoft thing, in June last year CSM asked CCP for a list of all CSM items in the backlog because we wanted to crosscheck them with stuff on the wiki and update all the CSM issues so that their current status was accurately documented. CCP could not do this because *surprise* none of the backlogged CSM items were tagged with any kind of CSM label or anything. So the backlog could not be queried for them. We requested CCP to implement a tagging system and then run the query to give us the desired list. They said it would take 6 months but we'd have it just before the next Summit. Johnathan Walker, a player who has been supportive of the CSM, read this in the minutes and said "WTF?! No way that should take six months! CCP is full of shit!", downloaded Hansoft (the software CCP used to manage their backlog), and by referencing the wiki and CSM meeting minutes, manually created a database of all CSM issues. This took approximately 12 hours of his time. He shared the results of the experiment with me and discussed it publicly on the forums. When I presented the results to CCP Xhagen (with links to appropriate forum posts, etc) and asked for more explanation about why it was going to take them six months, suddenly he got motivated and within a couple of weeks had sat down, manually gone through the backlog, tagged all the CSM items, and gave us our list.


Don't worry, it is CCP. Style will always prevail over substance.

You'd think that if it mattered for more than style they would integrate the "process" with internal operations. The way it was agreed to evolve towards =P Nothing shocking, perhaps something like calling a review meeting internally rather than constantly going back & forth ...

Yeah because CCP management is sooooo clued-in about normal business procedure. Yeah, right.

I wonder what percentage of the entire document is subject to disagreement between CSM and CCP and whether the nature of that disagreement is that CCP wants to NDA content that the CSM feels must be communicated in context (like they did with a heavy hand, broaching no discussion, to last October's minutes in an attempt to control messaging about Incarna that CSM felt strongly should be made public).

[definatelynotKKassandra]

I wonder what percentage of the entire document is subject to disagreement between CSM and CCP and whether the nature of that disagreement is that CCP wants to NDA content that the CSM feels must be communicated in context (like they did with a heavy hand, broaching no discussion, to last October's minutes in an attempt to control messaging about Incarna that CSM felt strongly should be made public).

If you can say, to what extent was the complete clusterfuck nature of the Incarna release apparent back then? Did they know at that point that it would be one room with nothing in it, or did they (still?) expect to have actual content for the release at that point?

[Al Simmons]

While that would be really insightful and entertaining, that just isn't how meeting minutes work. The purpose is so that they can be referenced at a later time and having two sets would just make them both pointless. Although, considering this is a video game...the entertainment value of releasing two sets might be better than their potential future usefulness (lulccpactuallygivingafuck).

Ok, but in the real world, of actual business, minutes are typed up by a secretary who was present at the meeting, and factually notes down what was said and discussed. They are available for general release no more than a week after the meeting. Now I know that isn't exactly possible here what with :nda: and so on, but in that case maybe it's time to actually just drop the act, drop the NDA and talk to us like adults and rational human beings.

I think we're at that point now. All the NDA is for is for shielding CCP from the players because of the stupid bullshit decisions and ideas that they have and try to pull. Maybe if they didn't have such moronic and destructive to the game ideas, then they wouldn't need to hide behind quite such a massive wall of spin and bullshit, and actually they would get on a lot better with the players overall, who would see some actual transparency and honesty.

Of course that would require pretty much a complete overhaul and revolution at CCP of the type Virt is always going on about, which will pretty much never happen. But to me, that's their only option at this point. Whether they see that before they've bled out most of their customers and they're into even deeper financial shit than they are now, well I doubt it.

It's the way of the world right now.

Invaded a country on a false pretext and have absolutely no reason to stay there? Stay the course!

Debt:GDP ratio nearly up to 1:1 and having to legislate to keep digging a deeper and deeper hole of debt? Keep spending and printing!!

Spend 4 years creating a fucking useless expansion that everyone hates? Keep wasting money and dev time on shit clothes for the Nex store, guys we're building a brand here, we have to think long term.

These results are not what they seem, telecoms is a sector that cannot slow. Of course i'm going to buy another house, what do you mean house prices aren't always going to go up, they've gone up every year for the past 5!!!

It's the same the fucking world over. Fat fucking useless managers and execs spouting their bullshit for so long they start believing it. And the people that work for them, 'at the coalface', don't really believe it, but they have to go along with it because you know, he's the boss. Also he seems really fucking fat, like if he sat on me i'd probably get squashed, and contract Icelandic Ginger Aids to boot. So i'd better not make any noise.

[Mynxee]

If you can say, to what extent was the complete clusterfuck nature of the Incarna release apparent back then? Did they know at that point that it would be one room with nothing in it, or did they (still?) expect to have actual content for the release at that point?

Well, let's see. Eight months before the planned release of what had been touted by CCP for YEARS as a paradigm-changing feature for the New Eden universe, no roadmap existed for that feature, no gameplay decisions had been made (and in fact were still being informally brainstormed, some of which was done with the CSM in the Incarna session at that October 2010 summit), microtransactions were clearly going to be a centerpiece of the release, a lot of key decisions about how microtransactions would be implemented had not been made, and CCP could not show the CSM any current working demos of the feature nor even any concept art.

So yes, I'd say that the message about an impending clusterfuck was written on the wall in glowing red indelible ink. And since all of those things were already being talked about publicly by several CSM5 members, it didn't make a lot of sense for CCP to NDA the writeup of the Incarna session in the October summit's minutes. If anything, doing that had exactly the opposite effect on messaging than what they were trying to accomplish.

[Seleene]

New blog out this morning talking about the minutes and other stuff:

CSM Emergency Summit - The Aftermath (http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html)

[Lana Torrin]

New blog out this morning talking about the minutes and other stuff:

CSM Emergency Summit - The Aftermath (http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html)
Holy hell you are still alive!

[Seleene]

Holy hell you are still alive!

Yes, I have very much missed wall of texting with the rest of you. Luckily, CCP makes it easy to find ways to make up for lost time. :)

[Virtuozzo]

If you can say, to what extent was the complete clusterfuck nature of the Incarna release apparent back then? Did they know at that point that it would be one room with nothing in it, or did they (still?) expect to have actual content for the release at that point?

Interesting case in point, among the workfloor a lot of the CCPians still connected with EVE (interestingly enough, marketing folks included) were rather blunt to refer to the whole "thing" under the name of "the cost of incarna". Something consistantly mentioned in the same breath as "glad when it's over", without (even at fanfest) anyone really realising that the cost of incarna would only start to show in winter 2011 earliest.

Huge disconnect yes, between upstairs and the rest of the company. But also a huge disconnect with reality on both levels. During fanfest, the ones still willing to talk about "the cost of incarna" were the ones still buying the last remnants of the corporate bullshit of "tis gonna be awesome, we're gonna do it in pieces, we're going to lead virtual world technology in fashion". Needless to say, that did not go as planned either.

[Virtuozzo]

New blog out this morning talking about the minutes and other stuff:

CSM Emergency Summit - The Aftermath (http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html)

The aftermath?

It's only yet another new beginning =P

[Lana Torrin]

New blog out this morning talking about the minutes and other stuff:

CSM Emergency Summit - The Aftermath (http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html)

I'm going to reply to this again because I have read it this time.. Well written and good on you for showing your opinion on all of the matters without dropping anyone else in the shit.

I have taken away a few things from this, but the first one that stood out were that there are videos of the summet..

How you can be arguing about 'tone' where there is video evidence of exactly what was said and more importantly HOW it was said is a joke.. (I would say release the videos but even I think that would be going too far)

[definatelynotKKassandra]

Interesting case in point, among the workfloor a lot of the CCPians still connected with EVE (interestingly enough, marketing folks included) were rather blunt to refer to the whole "thing" under the name of "the cost of incarna".

This is an interesting point, actually - Incarna was the first expansion in years not to get a bombastic trailer to promote it (every one since Trinity at least has had one, which was the first after I started playing). Presumably this means that someone high enough up in marketing to sanction not doing a trailer knew that Incarna was going to a turd? I find it hard to believe they would have been able to resist having an :awesome: trailer of people walking around otherwise.

[jimmychrist]

There's an incarna trailer. It's just that it features flying an interceptor in space combat...

[definatelynotKKassandra]

There's an incarna trailer. It's just that it features flying an interceptor in space combat...

Shit, I completely forgot about that one. Still, it does show that someone in marketing knows that :awesome space battles: is what sells Eve.

[Virtuozzo]

I'm going to reply to this again because I have read it this time.. Well written and good on you for showing your opinion on all of the matters without dropping anyone else in the shit.

I have taken away a few things from this, but the first one that stood out were that there are videos of the summet..

How you can be arguing about 'tone' where there is video evidence of exactly what was said and more importantly HOW it was said is a joke.. (I would say release the videos but even I think that would be going too far)

Because CCP as a human group is not capable of living up to its proclaimed values - in spite of best (individual) efforts. It just breaks on the level of group dynamics. I am sorry to say this, but this is textbook classic for the selected business culture.

CCP as an international agency, combining many cultures and methods of expertise, is in a prime position to not fall prey to that - if they so choose to. But they choose NOT to combine the best of all worlds (so to speak), they do NOT strive for synergy.

Classic syndrome of decisive communications being limited (through processes, systems but also through people) to one directional paths. Regardless of whether horizontal, or vertical. And those last two rarely intersect for decisive paths. It is top down. No striving for "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". Hence why you don't see a CEO at CCP getting hands on as a stakeholder with projects like Jobs did (still does). Nor a CTO, who just rambles along (sorry man, one bridge / speech too far). At the end of the day, :team awesome: says it all.

Sadly, and fortunately, CCP the company is with EVE in a position of luxury. It keeps them alive, where others would die near instantly. It allows them to grow, in spite of tremendous costs of personal and collective failures. So, fortunately in the sense that it keeps people their jobs. Sadly, because it removes any & all stimulus towards change.

And until change becomes required, CCP will only ever preach, and never practice. Smart people will use CCP as a stepping stone in the industry, and move on.

[Marlona Sky]

Be a rebel, two step. Release them as is (or rather, as the CSM wish them to be released), and resign! You'll be a hero.

This tbh.

Serious question: Is CCP hoping to delay the minutes long enough that there is a new CSM elected and then they can simply sweep this thing under the rug like it never happened?

[bobgainsfield]

Serious question: Is CCP hoping to delay the minutes long enough that there is a new CSM elected and then they can simply sweep this thing under the rug like it never happened?

Sit on the minutes for another half a year, and keep the current CSM from releasing anything else 'officially'? That'd be snazzy!

Who knows, the CSM might actually go for it as well. Although it has been gratifying to see a few of the more active CSM members speak up recently, even mittens trolling I guess is better than dead silence.

[noobcake]

This tbh.

Serious question: Is CCP hoping to delay the minutes long enough that there is a new CSM elected and then they can simply sweep this thing under the rug like it never happened?

If they werent thinking this before u posted...they all are now. I doubt we'll *ever* see minutes.

[Aypse]

New blog out this morning talking about the minutes and other stuff:

CSM Emergency Summit - The Aftermath (http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/08/csm-emergency-summit-aftermath.html)

What annoys me the most is that Mittens did the little video with Zulu and, aside from that and the 'official joint statement', there has been nothing else come of all this in two months. This continual editing back and forth and the adjustments for 'tone' just screams spin spin spin to anyone with even a passing interest in the process.

This little excerpt from your blog is so true and I couldn't agree with it more. The more CCP try to throw camouflage over this, the more it tells me that CCP really doesn't want the players to see what is underneath. Normally this can be understandable for certain projects but for a meeting that was suppose to clearly relate facts to the playerbase....unacceptable.

Edit to add: CSM needs to remember that it's your mandate to relate accurate information to the players and the only obligation to CCP is to not violate the NDA. You have no obligation to phrase the tone of your message according to what they prefer but you do have an obligation to represent information as accurately as possible. Stay strong and remember that letting them spin your message to the players is is exactly the opposite of what you were elected to do.

[Mike deVoid]

Do an NDA acceptable edit of the summit videos and get them sent to eveleaks or whatever. Possibly audio-only.

[Aypse]

Do an NDA acceptable edit of the summit videos and get them sent to eveleaks or whatever. Possibly audio-only.

No and for the same reason as the CSM should never resign. Regardless of how much (if at all) CSM is able to influence CCP, at least they do provide some inside information. If they start leaking shit too obviously, CCP will disband them and just say its because they can't be trusted. We then lose a partial supply of ammunition to use against the CCP PR machine. We gain nothing by the CSM disappearing and at the very least a strong CSM can be a thorn in the side of team awesome.

[Mynxee]

No and for the same reason as the CSM should never resign. Regardless of how much (if at all) CSM is able to influence CCP, at least they do provide some inside information. If they start leaking shit too obviously, CCP will disband them and just say its because they can't be trusted. We then lose a partial supply of ammunition to use against the CCP PR machine. We gain nothing by the CSM disappearing and at the very least a strong CSM can be a thorn in the side of team awesome.

Besides which, knowing the videos might ultimately be made public would stifle the free exchange of dialog in the Summits. Everyone would be behaving for the public instead of spontaneously in the moment. Plus, the CSM could never edit and release summit videos with any confidence that they did indeed remove all NDA stuff, because NDA status of content is decided by CCP on an ad hoc basis according to their agenda...an approach well supported by the ridiculously non-specific language contained in the NDA that CSMs must sign (at least, that's how I'd characterize the one I signed).

[Surveyor]

Since there still isn't anything out, why not make 2 minutes? One for each party. You did the same thing right after the summit, why not now?

[Xiang Jiao]

Thanks for the blog, Seleene.

This from the joint statement:


We were pleased when Torfi announced that the current "Disabled Incarna Door" will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality and performance to the pre-Incarna Hangar, and this environment will be available until Incarna performance is similar to pre-Incarna performance. While the final details and timelines have not been worked out, ships will once again spin all over New Eden.

Do we have any more details on the timeline for the return of the hangar? As in before the Winter expansion, during, or after?

[Evelgrivion]

Thanks for the blog, Seleene.

This from the joint statement:


We were pleased when Torfi announced that the current "Disabled Incarna Door" will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality and performance to the pre-Incarna Hangar, and this environment will be available until Incarna performance is similar to pre-Incarna performance. While the final details and timelines have not been worked out, ships will once again spin all over New Eden.

Do we have any more details on the timeline for the return of the hangar? As in before the Winter expansion, during, or after?

I'm sure this is coming in the same way the revamped cyno effects and engine trails are. :roll:

[two step]

Do we have any more details on the timeline for the return of the hangar? As in before the Winter expansion, during, or after?

We haven't seen the Incarna plans for the Winter expansion yet, so can't say yet. They hadn't designed it when we did the summit yet, so I wouldn't bet on it. I did plead with them for basic stuff, like double click on the door to open cargo, we will see if that makes it.

[jimmychrist]

We haven't seen the Incarna plans for the Winter expansion yet, so can't say yet. They hadn't designed it when we did the summit yet, so I wouldn't bet on it. I did plead with them for basic stuff, like double click on the door to open cargo, we will see if that makes it.
CCP is daring everyone to unsub. Double-dog-daring.

I mean let's just see how much worse we can make this abortion of a GUI before people actually fall over from strokes

[noobcake]

We haven't seen the Incarna plans for the Winter expansion yet, so can't say yet. They hadn't designed it when we did the summit yet, so I wouldn't bet on it. I did plead with them for basic stuff, like double click on the door to open cargo, we will see if that makes it.

Thats fucking scary...winter is 2 months away...

[Xiang Jiao]

We haven't seen the Incarna plans for the Winter expansion yet, so can't say yet. They hadn't designed it when we did the summit yet, so I wouldn't bet on it. I did plead with them for basic stuff, like double click on the door to open cargo, we will see if that makes it.

That's what I figured. I just wanted to know if there was any update about it in the minutes. You'd figure there might be since they are two months late. It would be somewhat amusing if they just wait until most players go through another GPU upgrade, then declare Incarna performance fixed. If that's the case, they won't need to release the old hangar functionality for all of the scrubs still using three year old video cards. We're also probably too cheap to subscribe with a credit card, so who gives a shit if we quit.

Edit: I find CCP's proposed timeline consistency bothersome. They can't be asked to put a date on a lot of items they promise, like something as simple as returning the old hangar, engine trails and cyno effect. But they will, on a whim, brazenly declare in an interview that hybrids will be fixed by the Summer expansion, a year into the future. You'd think at a company that should be in fear of its own survival, they would be a bit more reserved about promising updates that can't be delivered. The alternative explanation is that they are seriously committed to fixing hybrids, and promising the old hangar to players is just hot air. Makes a lot of sense, does it not?

[Evelgrivion]

That's what I figured. I just wanted to know if there was any update about it in the minutes. You'd figure there might be since they are two months late. It would be somewhat amusing if they just wait until most players go through another GPU upgrade, then declare Incarna performance fixed. If that's the case, they won't need to release the old hangar functionality for all of the scrubs still using three year old video cards. We're also probably too cheap to subscribe with a credit card, so who gives a shit if we quit.

Edit: I find CCP's proposed timeline consistency bothersome. They can't be asked to put a date on a lot of items they promise, like something as simple as returning the old hangar, engine trails and cyno effect. But they will, on a whim, brazenly declare in an interview that hybrids will be fixed by the Summer expansion, a year into the future. You'd think at a company that should be in fear of its own survival, they would be a bit more reserved about promising updates that can't be delivered. The alternative explanation is that they are seriously committed to fixing hybrids, and promising the old hangar to players is just hot air. Makes a lot of sense, does it not?

They aren't promising something they can't deliver, they're saying "we'll do it later" because they don't actually want to do it at all. They want marketing headlines for more gullible, PR and hype buying idiots to fill their piggy banks with more money for new projects. This is Iceland; they are almost literally incapable of making better plans and commitments than that.

[Surveyor]

Total non-shocker that CCP has no plan to present for winter :psycsm:.

And they do not intend to bring back the old hanger, they plan to offer something with similar functions till CQ doesn't fry GPU's left, right and center. Then we all will be forced to sit in out lonely CQ's again. I hope they take a very long time till that happens. Just accept that ship spinning is gone, old cyno is gone and so much more ...

EVE is nothing but a husk abused to test their alpha for WoD and generate income while it does.

[two step]

Total non-shocker that CCP has no plan to present for winter :psycsm:.

Um, that isn't what I said. We have seen the flying in space plans, we haven't seen the incarna plans. The incarna plans have been made, we just haven't had them communicated to us yet.

[Al Simmons]

There's an incarna trailer. It's just that it features flying an interceptor in space combat...

Yeah, in a type of fleet battle that hasn't existed in Eve for at least 3 years, if it ever did.

[Xiang Jiao]

They aren't promising something they can't deliver, they're saying "we'll do it later" because they don't actually want to do it at all.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at. It's also the reason why I'm being so annoying by bringing the old hanger up in multiple threads. The existence of the old hangar is pivotal to me staying in the game. If CCP cares enough to bring it back for the players, then maybe they care enough to not make the Incarna station environment compulsory. When that happens, I'm gone, if not some time before then. The spaceships game is getting pretty stale at this point.

[Jester]

Um, that isn't what I said. We have seen the flying in space plans, we haven't seen the incarna plans. The incarna plans have been made, we just haven't had them communicated to us yet.
And I'll bet you money that the concern isn't that they have no plans... it's that they have plans but are not sure if they can achieve them in anything approaching a reasonable time frame.

Other race's CQs, I can see them delivering in the 150 days left before their traditional winter release time frame. Establishments? Hee! No. Can't see them making it.

[bobgainsfield]

The existence of the old hangar is pivotal to me staying in the game. If CCP cares enough to bring it back for the players, then maybe they care enough to not make the Incarna station environment compulsory.

Pretty much every word from CCP recently has suggested that they intend to make this compulsory. No?

[Surveyor]

Pretty much every word from CCP recently has suggested that they intend to make this compulsory. No?

Yes CQ's will be cumpulsory. They sould have been the day Incarna was deployed but the melting GPUs somehow convinced CCP for their temporary optout-option. If you can't live without oldschool shipspinning here is the news for you: The Eve you loved is dead ... stop molesting the dead body plz!

[Lana Torrin]

Yes CQ's will be cumpulsory. They sould have been the day Incarna was deployed but the melting GPUs somehow convinced CCP for their temporary optout-option. If you can't live without oldschool shipspinning here is the news for you: The Eve you loved is dead ... stop molesting the dead body plz!
I could not have said that better myself.

[Xiang Jiao]

Yes CQ's will be cumpulsory. They sould have been the day Incarna was deployed but the melting GPUs somehow convinced CCP for their temporary optout-option.

I don't buy this. The option to load or disable station environment was always there, even before Incarna was released. I don't know at what point they decided while testing the CQ, but the option was there for players from the very beginning. On June 21st, I logged in after patching and the first thing I did was uncheck the box on all of my accounts.

To take this option out, at this point, after Incarna has already launched, would be terribly stupid. Incarna should be weighed on its own merit. They have already promised the return of the old hangar. They either hold to it, or they don't. That's why we have the CSM, or so I thought?

[Lana Torrin]

I don't buy this. The option to load or disable station environment was always there, even before Incarna was released. I don't know at what point they decided while testing the CQ, but the option was there for players from the very beginning. On June 21st, I logged in after patching and the first thing I did was uncheck the box on all of my accounts.

To take this option out, at this point, after Incarna has already launched, would be terribly stupid. Incarna should be weighed on its own merit. They have already promised the return of the old hangar. They either hold to it, or they don't. That's why we have the CSM, or so I thought?

You don't have to buy anything, CCP have stated multiple times that this is a temporary option that will get removed in the future. They cant sell you digital clothing in 50% of their player base can just opt out of seeing it..

I fully expect CCP to start using the black screen of undocking to start showing adverts about new NeX items. I an honestly surprised they haven't thought of this one yet (its easy to code, download the adverts in to cache on login and then just display them when undocking.)

[bobgainsfield]

I don't buy this. The option to load or disable station environment was always there, even before Incarna was released. I don't know at what point they decided while testing the CQ, but the option was there for players from the very beginning. On June 21st, I logged in after patching and the first thing I did was uncheck the box on all of my accounts.

They have already promised the return of the old hangar. They either hold to it, or they don't. That's why we have the CSM, or so I thought?

I expect the moment CCP decided to ultimately remove the load/disable station environment was somewhat closely linked to the decision to add Vanity MT. After all, as others have said, if you can opt out of fancy NEX crap you'd have a smaller potential pool of buyers for it. It's there now because the station environment does something horrible to a whole lot of people's computers, but no one believes it'll be there forever. CCP has said it'll go away once the performance issues are equal to pre-Incarna. Although that's a metric they'll probably choose on their own, regardless of our opinions.

IIRC, the dev comment was something like they'd bring back a ship spinning alternative for folks to use until they managed to nail down the performance issues from Incarna. They certainly haven't rushed THAT particular feature... eh? We've seen some NEX iteration, but station environments? Not so much. It'd be nice for folks if the captain's cupboard included some sort of ship spinning view, beyond the fitting window though.

I'm farily certain no CCP Dev has ever said they'd bring back the old hanger environment.

Guess we'll know for certain when the emergency minutes come... oh... wait...

[Jester]

I'm farily certain no CCP Dev has ever said they'd bring back the old hanger environment.
They apparently said it at the emergency summit, that they'd be willing to bring back the hangar environment, complete with a version of ship spinning, but that the ship-spinning would have to be rebuilt on the Carbon model that Incarna uses.

[Lana Torrin]

They apparently said it at the emergency summit, that they'd be willing to bring back the hangar environment, complete with a version of ship spinning, but that the ship-spinning would have to be rebuilt on the Carbon model that Incarna uses.

So they said something at the summit that they refuse to publish the minutes from about something that kind of would work like the old hanger environment..

I suspect they actually said nothing like 'yeah we will bring the old hanger back' and instead will add some way to adjust the spin of your ship in the existing incarna hanger. I mean, its pointless them coding a new interface (because they cant use the old one due to not carbon) that they will only use for a short period, using up coding resources, when the 'fix' for the incarna interface involves using those exact same resources.. They would be better off fixing the performance problems and just saying 'nope sorry its gone, this is your new station environment now'.

Edit: I hate the new hanger but if there were no performance issues, you could drag ships from your hanger and drop them for quick ship changes (or just fucking double click them) and the camera was setup so when you docked you were standing looking at your ship which filled up most of the screen, it would be workable..

[Sponk]

I suspect they actually said nothing like 'yeah we will bring the old hanger back' and instead will add some way to adjust the spin of your ship in the existing incarna hanger.
I believe they said ship spinning would be back, not 'old hangar'.

I suspect what will happen will be
right click ship -> look at -> spin

[Marlona Sky]

I bet any amount of ISK they will puss out with some cheap ass ship spinning that is you click on the hologram of the ship you are currently in and it rotates 360 degrees once. No more.

[Xiang Jiao]

I believe they said ship spinning would be back, not 'old hangar'.

Here's the wording from the summit accord:


the current "Disabled Incarna Door" will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality and performance to the pre-Incarna Hangar

Meaning the picture of the door we have now will be replaced with something that emulates the old hangar with ship-spinning, drag and dropping in tact. I expect to be wowed.

[Al Simmons]

I bet any amount of ISK they will puss out with some cheap ass ship spinning that is you click on the hologram of the ship you are currently in and it rotates 360 degrees once. No more.

720 and 1080 degrees will be purchasable through the Nex store.

[Kate Yeats]

I expect to be wowed.

This is CCP, we don't do 'wowed' we do 'terrible and crushing disappointment' :



Unknown Submitter> A large number of EVE players do not like to leave their ship every time they dock. Some have computer hardware issues running several clients, some find it extremely immersion breaking and completely against EVE lore, and some would just rather abstain from Incarna alltogether. The return of the old ship hanger or some version of it with a disembark button would make all those people happy. When does CCP plan to do it?

CCP Soundwave> No, we don't have any plans for that. Incarna is essentially an addition that is central to the future of EVE.

[Link (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1572353)]


EDIT: Update from soundwave on twitter:
Kate: You said at PAX CCP aren't working on returning ship spinning. Can you confirm?
Soundwave: No, I said that we would not return the old hangar view.

So I think that means ship spinning will be back in, or it could just mean precisely what he says.

[Kate Yeats]

It has always been the aim to release any minutes from CCP/CSM meetings with the approval of everyone that participated. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not. When the matters of tone and semantics come up the best way is to simply go through it step by step and resolve the differences. And this takes time.

I realize that many are waiting for these minutes, but we want to get this right - it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to. Specially when the subject is volatile and sensitive.

So essentially the hold up seems to be what was said in the meetings isn't what CCP want people to think was said in the meetings.

[noobcake]

They cant sell you digital clothing in 50% of their player base can just opt out of seeing it..
uhhhh right now theyre selling digital clothing and 100% of their playerbase cant see it...

[Malcanis]

Um, that isn't what I said. We have seen the flying in space plans, we haven't seen the incarna plans. The incarna plans have been made, we just haven't had them communicated to us yet.

Remember when Torfi and Nozh asked why they should bother fixing rockets if nobody used them?

Maybe they're applying the same logic to Incarna?

[GiDiYi]

I just cancelled my subs (again) for the second time this year and the second time ever (they'll expire in November).

It's not so much rage on current developement, it's just boredom combined with the feeling of maybe finally having lost interest. I was at this point once before, so I don't want to do a statement by this, but if they don't come up with something fun soon, it's game over for me.

On the other hand keeping the interest of a player of a computer game for four years is an achievement. They deserve props for that.

Last time I quit I made a farewellpost on Eve-O and I have never posted there since with any of my chars. I try to figure out what I got to do this time to justify it for myself. :ohnoes:

[Evelgrivion]

Given the PCU numbers post-Incarna, the pants conspiracy would seem to be failing. I don't think Torfi allocates much in the way of resources, though. Creative Director is an odd, alumnus sort of position.

Strategies don't always work. I don't promise success. Certain elements within CCP may - due to incompetence, kool-aid drinking or whatever - continue to neglect FiS and drive the game into the ground through slow stagnation and neglect. But we'll put pressure where we can. I'm a fond of the media, because I have a gift for demagoguery. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

The time for action is now, rather than later, Mittens; why haven't you started yet?

[Lana Torrin]

the current "Disabled Incarna Door" will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality and performance to the pre-Incarna Hangar

Meaning the picture of the door we have now will be replaced with something that emulates the old hangar with ship-spinning, drag and dropping in tact. I expect to be wowed.

You will notice what was said does not include ship spinning at all.. "similar functionality and performance" means just that, something like the functionality and performance we had before incarna, not the actual thing we had before incarna. I fully expect we will get ship drag and drop back, and non video card killing performance, but ship spinning wont be considered functionality and wont be coming back.

[Lana Torrin]

The time for action is now, rather than later, Mittens; why haven't you started yet?

Because he's a spineless yes man that doesn't want to lose his free trips to iceland and has had the wool pulled so far over his eyes he not only believes CCP, but also doesn't believe they are manipulating him.

[Sponk]

Confirming that Mittens is a spineless yes man who would never incite rabble against ccp.

[Lana Torrin]

The rabble was happening with or without him. He got in late, saw what was going on and joined in to appear as though he was somehow relevant. This is the worst type of political move because it has all the hallmarks of someone that knows what is going on but is completely powerless to do anything about it.

[Sponk]

*cough* something about 20 *cough*

[Al Simmons]

Because he's a spineless yes man that doesn't want to lose his free trips to iceland and has had the wool pulled so far over his eyes he not only believes CCP, but also doesn't believe they are manipulating him.

I don't really know how it's possible to be this wrong about someone or something. Like, do you have a tardis rigged up to a reality distortion machine like the master did when he took over earth? I think that's the only way you could post that without your brain leaping out of your eyeballs for freedom.

[Xiang Jiao]

It doesn't really matter what anyone says about the members of the council. The results (and CCP) speak for them. If someone lied to my face and put my credibility on the line, I would definitely make a statement to that effect, but the council seemingly wants to continue holding onto their political capital, whatever that may be at this point.

I also don't think anyone in their right mind would manipulate their way onto a player council just for a free trip to Iceland. Why the hell would you go to Iceland if you were not forced into it?

[Evelgrivion]

I don't really know how it's possible to be this wrong about someone or something. Like, do you have a tardis rigged up to a reality distortion machine like the master did when he took over earth? I think that's the only way you could post that without your brain leaping out of your eyeballs for freedom.

To poke at this a bit more, if Mittens is out to pressure CCP into actually fixing things, why hasn't he started? We all know the most effective avenues are to go after their traditional PR affirmation arms and if you really want to be a bastard, their primary investors; shouldn't we have seen some fruits of Mittani's labors in the form of communications if he was up to something in the effective directions?

[Lana Torrin]

I don't really know how it's possible to be this wrong about someone or something. Like, do you have a tardis rigged up to a reality distortion machine like the master did when he took over earth? I think that's the only way you could post that without your brain leaping out of your eyeballs for freedom.

Because the CSM has managed to stop CCP from doing a single retarded thing.

Face it, hes all huff and bluff and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker. The only thing that matters is results and this CSM has come up short on every single thing it promised. They cant even get the fucking minutes to a meeting that was supposed to appease the masses release within 3 months of it happening (or 2 months, fuck I have forgotten when this actually happened its been that long). The CSM is completely toothless and spineless and nothing more than a dancing monkey for CCP to show off to the media to show how much they care about the players.

You can blame CCP for this as much as you want. but the previous CSMs have all had to deal with this and for the most part managed it pretty well. He has shown a complete lack of leadership and direction and as a result CCP has walked all over everything the CSM has tried to do.

[Xiang Jiao]

Because the CSM has managed to stop CCP from doing a single retarded thing.

In all fairness, they did manage to somehow prevent the Ishukone Scorpion paintjob MT from making space ships out of thin air.

You are correct that the line they set out to follow at the beginning of the term was one of professionalism and communication with CCP, and they didn't want to rock the boat like the council before them, because asking tough questions doesn't get the job done. I've been looking through some old threads and the notes taken of the Fireside chat (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9uYBZloUOD6U_eyYKIF103TROmLpaE2RpNNqr7u7K4/edit?hl=en&authkey=COj9544O&pli=1), just to give some perspective on how the current council is doing.

They preface the meeting by saying the CSM is not a legislature but they want reach players and spotlight key issues that they can succeed in influencing. The recognize that the CSM is not always consulted by CCP on major issues, and they want CCP to bring all major game changes to them for comment before release. This is so if anything sucks they can cover their asses first.

Right now it seems that the council is locked in one of those struggles over the content of emergency summit minutes.

Also, I saw this from Trebor in the reply thread which partially answered the question in my mind about when the next Fireside chat would be: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?598-CSM-FIRESIDE-CHAT&p=17800&viewfull=1#post17800


We will certainly have another after the summit (in conjunction with the release of the minutes, most likely), and also do them as part of future spotlights. But doing more than that would probably have to be associated with some important messaging or event.

For example, many CSM members agree with Mittens about the importance of the NPE (I actually started a thread on it last year in F&I). So when the new CQ NPE hits SiSi, I expect we'll do a push to get people to run it and provide feedback. But whether that needs a Fireside Chat is unclear.

We definitely do plan to start discussion threads about the summit meeting topics as soon as they are firmed up.

Was there ever a second chat? I'm not sure to which summit Trebor referring in this post. We have had a rather climactic event with the release of Incarna and the emergency summit. Does the CSM plan to get another chat cooking soon? I think the players really are want for some guidance and answers. We also need the council to be on the ball in the months leading up to the Winter release. Another catastrophe from CCP is not desirable.

[Mike deVoid]

Both Fireside chat recordings can be found here: http://www.podgoo.com/csm-6-fireside-chats/

The 2nd one was July 16th.

[Evelgrivion]

Both Fireside chat recordings can be found here: http://www.podgoo.com/csm-6-fireside-chats/

The 2nd one was July 16th.

Seems like some poor follow-through, on par with CCP's slowness at doing things when they don't want to do them. Then again, I'm bitter as hell.

[Kate Yeats]

Because he's a spineless yes man that doesn't want to lose his free trips to iceland and has had the wool pulled so far over his eyes he not only believes CCP, but also doesn't believe they are manipulating him.

I wouldn't confuse the CSM's impotence as Mitten's. The CSM demanding devs/ccp change shit just antagonises them and prompts the standard 'too much work, we have no resources, we'll look at it'. He has his own goals and 'fixing Eve' isn't one of them. 'fixing Null sec' isn't either. There's maybe a top ten list of petty rebalances and minor game tweaks and he's going to use influence from personal relationships to acomplish. I'm slipping into :tinfoil: here but I think he's going with the approach where you drop hints to the devs so that it is their idea thus they are bought into making it happen 'I'll work weekends if I have to'. It all flies completely under the radar of the CSM.

Though I'm open to being horrifically off the mark and reading too much into the internet postings of a man I know nothing of.

[XenosisReaper]

Mittens is an absolute retard who should kill himself IRL.

Seriously, the whole ABC ores in wormholes debacle outed him as somebody who has no idea what he's doing.

[a mitten]

CSM DOES NOTHING RARRR

oh wait the supercap nerf is line by line what the csm asked for

MITTENS IS A PUPPET OF CCP

*forgets t20*

lana and xenosis are exactly the sort of people who make csming hilarious/awesome

[Virtuozzo]

behave folks

[smagd]

Would vote for mittens again (with my 4 hour reactivation given to current plans).

I'm in it for the drama.

[Aypse]

CSM DOES NOTHING RARRR

oh wait the supercap nerf is line by line what the csm asked for

MITTENS IS A PUPPET OF CCP

*forgets t20*

lana and xenosis are exactly the sort of people who make csming hilarious/awesome

You aren't actually so naive as to take CCP's word on how & when they are going to fix supers are you? I will believe it, and give CSM credit, when I actually see the results live on tq. Until then, its just ::words:: in a long history of false promises and under-performance. This is especially true on the topic of supers. Let's face it...they have 'balanced' titans three times and mothers three (four?) times already and look where we are at now.

[Leboe]

hey guys if badposting means the CSM is useless, your posting proves FHC should be nuked from orbit


incarna performance will reach pre-incarna levels when it takes 2 years and everyone has upgraded their PCs

[bobgainsfield]

oh wait the supercap nerf is line by line what the csm asked for


Someone really should save that line for posterity for when the scap 'nerf' actually hits... just... you know... in case. Discussing the scap nerf now is a trifle silly, since CCP probably has their ideas, they may even be on a whiteboard somewhere.

[Al Simmons]

But Leboe I want to run Eve on my Pentium 3, it runs Warcraft 3 perfectly well, which was released in the same year as Eve, so. CCP are just in cahoots with Nvidia trying to get us to buy overpriced and exotic hardware like computers newer than 10 years old, which frankly I will never do.

[Leboe]

melting of even high-end ati/amd cards is another can of worms :psyccp:

[Kate Yeats]

incarna performance will reach pre-incarna levels when it takes 2 years and everyone has upgraded their PCs

Which is when they'll add the MMO part to Incarna, once again grinding your machine to almost complete halt. Good news? Discount coupon on a new graphics card.

[Marlona Sky]

CSM DOES NOTHING RARRR

oh wait the supercap nerf is line by line what the csm asked for

The players have been asking for a super cap nerf for a couple years now. I am pretty sure every possible change has already been suggested by the players on multiple forums. So tell me what the difference is between the players asking for a super cap nerf and the CSM asking for a super cap nerf?

Then again, I am pretty sure the focus as far as the CSM was to have a team work on balancing instead of specific aspects of specific ships. As far as I know, they assigned one guy, who made one or two posts about the Dramiel and logistic warp speed. That was it. I am pretty sure the 'chest sucking wound' is a hell of a lot bigger than that.

Seems to me that CCP ignores the CSM just as much as the players posting on the forums. Point being; they do not care less or more about any subject if it comes from the players or the CSM. So why do we still need the CSM?

[Kate Yeats]

So why do we still need the CSM?

Well duh!, to post crowdsourcing threads. Otherwise CCP have to post a devblog and make their own crowdsourcing threads.

Ahh, I see your point.

[two step]

The players have been asking for a super cap nerf for a couple years now. I am pretty sure every possible change has already been suggested by the players on multiple forums. So tell me what the difference is between the players asking for a super cap nerf and the CSM asking for a super cap nerf?

Then again, I am pretty sure the focus as far as the CSM was to have a team work on balancing instead of specific aspects of specific ships. As far as I know, they assigned one guy, who made one or two posts about the Dramiel and logistic warp speed. That was it. I am pretty sure the 'chest sucking wound' is a hell of a lot bigger than that.

Seems to me that CCP ignores the CSM just as much as the players posting on the forums. Point being; they do not care less or more about any subject if it comes from the players or the CSM. So why do we still need the CSM?

In the specific case of the supercap nerf, the CSM has a 5 page thread with CCP about the details of the nerf, and we have been going back and forth with CCP about the specifics. This is all with the one guy who is doing balance (CCP Tallest), though a bunch of other CCP folks have chimed in as well.

[XenosisReaper]

Any hints as to what they're considering?

[noobcake]

Any hints as to what they're considering?

HOW DARE YOU! THAT WOULD BE BREAKING THE AWESOME NDA!

[two step]

Any hints as to what they're considering?

Dev blog on the details coming out very shortly. I'll let CCP fill you in on the details.

[Evelgrivion]

Dev blog on the details coming out very shortly. I'll let CCP fill you in on the details.

Do you recognize how pathetic this whole situation is? CCP has you exactly where it wants you; you get validation from CCP in being the special crowd that they actually "pay attention to" after ignoring a feature for years until the CSM comes along - all the while, they're marching to the beat of their own drum in getting around to it.

Ironing out the details of the implementation is a good thing and a product of the good work being put in by the likes of CCP Tallest. Yet, none of this good work is the result of anything but the crafted and concocted desires of BFF's masters.

[jimmychrist]

the good work being put in by the likes of CCP Tallest
What fucking work? He started a thread and then snuck off for a two and a half month wank.

[Evelgrivion]

What fucking work? He started a thread and then snuck off for a two and a half month wank.

To play devil's advocate, it is in relative terms and he was probably on vacation for at least a month and a half of that. Compare Tallest actually working on spaceships with two years of CCP not working on spaceships at all, or with the non-efforts of the web cell, etc.

[jimmychrist]

To play devil's advocate, it is in relative terms and he was probably on vacation for at least a month and a half of that. Compare Tallest actually working on spaceships with two years of CCP not working on spaceships at all, or with the non-efforts of the web cell, etc.
Changing the warp speed of the logis is a two minute job, at fucking worst. Tweaking the dramiel maybe ten. So far he hasn't done anything yet, there's no tangible result of any kind. Team BFF have all blown around a bunch of hot air. They're like five dudes, they will not be able to produce anything close to the efforts this game desperately needs in the time frame that it needs it in.

Revamping nullsec is a task that should be the kind of company wide push that Apocrypha was. At least. And they gave it five guys minus the ship guy.

[Evelgrivion]

Changing the warp speed of the logis is a two minute job, at fucking worst. Tweaking the dramiel maybe ten. So far he hasn't done anything yet, there's no tangible result of any kind. Team BFF have all blown around a bunch of hot air. They're like five dudes, they will not be able to produce anything close to the efforts this game desperately needs in the time frame that it needs it in.

Revamping nullsec is a task that should be the kind of company wide push that Apocrypha was. At least. And they gave it five guys minus the ship guy.

It speaks volumes about how low the bar has been set that five guys working on spaceships is a step up.

[Mynxee]

The time for action is now, rather than later, Mittens; why haven't you started yet?

He appears to be warming up with this CEO Update on Kugu (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?9644-Goonswarm-Federation-The-Last-Bastion-Of-True-Gooniness&p=291661&viewfull=1#post291661). Isn't that chart from Jester's blog (http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html)? No attribution that I saw. Update: I admire Jester's sense of humor (http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/09/conscience-of-king.html).

[Evelgrivion]

He appears to be warming up with this CEO Update on Kugu (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?9644-Goonswarm-Federation-The-Last-Bastion-Of-True-Gooniness&p=291661&viewfull=1#post291661). Isn't that chart from Jester's blog? No attribution that I saw.

Is Jester's blog post a few days out of date? The impact that the resumption of school has had on the PCU is almost alarming. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

I wonder what implications this carries for Incarna's e-pants vehicle :|

Knowing CCP, it won't be the right thing of ending that experiment.

[two step]

Mitten's post is just us getting started. It is long past time for CCP to start putting a lot more resources on Flying in Space (or as Mittens says, what we call "EVE Online") and less on walking in stations. We find it just as unacceptable as the rest of you that the Gallente rebalancing is not coming until sometime next year.

[Marlona Sky]

In the specific case of the supercap nerf, the CSM has a 5 page thread with CCP about the details of the nerf, and we have been going back and forth with CCP about the specifics. This is all with the one guy who is doing balance (CCP Tallest), though a bunch of other CCP folks have chimed in as well.

What specifics? I thought the CSM were not developers and game designers? Who was it on the CSM who kept screaming that left and right like he was on Arrakis holding a Weirding Module?

[two step]

What specifics? I thought the CSM were not developers and game designers? Who was it on the CSM who kept screaming that left and right like he was on Arrakis holding a Weirding Module?

Not a Dune fan, but I will reply anyway. I said our role was not to design the game, but that certainly doesn't preclude discussing specific design decisions with CCP. Come on, this is just common sense...

[Evelgrivion]

Not a Dune fan, but I will reply anyway. I said our role was not to design the game, but that certainly doesn't preclude discussing specific design decisions with CCP. Come on, this is just common sense...

The original statement that "players don't make game design" was made to the effect of excluding player input; Mittani, and the CSM that followed along with whatever Mittani decided to say, worked along the same line. Now he's changing his tune? This is about control, not common sense.

Either way, it's still besides the point; playing on both sides of the fence won't fix EVE Online - flying in space OR walking in stations.

[two step]

The original statement that "players don't make game design" was made to the effect of excluding player input; Mittani, and the CSM that followed along with whatever Mittani decided to say, worked along the same line. Now he's changing his tune? This is about control, not common sense.

Either way, it's still besides the point; playing on both sides of the fence won't fix EVE Online - flying in space OR walking in stations.

No, we really didn't. I don't see CSM's role as saying to CCP, "Hey CCP, here are the stats for the 47 new ships you should add to EVE. BTW, here is the design for new, awesome POSes." That doesn't mean when CCP shows us how they want to change capitals, we can't point out flaws or make suggestions. Again, come on, use some common sense.

[Evelgrivion]

No, we really didn't. I don't see CSM's role as saying to CCP, "Hey CCP, here are the stats for the 47 new ships you should add to EVE. BTW, here is the design for new, awesome POSes." That doesn't mean when CCP shows us how they want to change capitals, we can't point out flaws or make suggestions. Again, come on, use some common sense.

I am using common sense; this methodology shows no initiative unless prompted by CCP. You should be smart enough to know that CCP does absolutely nothing unless prompted, itself. Even with prompting, CCP can, has, and will ignore a problem for years until they finally decide "yeah, I suppose we should deal with that." Playing along with CCP's bad behavior encourages its continuation, not the fixing of it.

[Kate Yeats]

That doesn't mean when CCP shows us how they want to change capitals, we can't point out flaws or make suggestions.


In the specific case of the supercap nerf, the CSM has a 5 page thread with CCP about the details of the nerf

Rumor is those changes are limited to tracking nerf, losing drones and less ehp. A 5 page thread to regurgitate what the playerbase has been screaming to CCP at the top of their lungs? You clowns are just as bad as CCP at making the obvious seem like tremendous effort.

[edit]Also enjoying Mittens going from 'incarna is a commercial reality, suck it up bitches' to :

We will not stand idly by as an alliance while our subscription money goes to waste, watching the game we pay to play spiraling into entropy due to the folly and neglect of CCP's management.

Welcome to six months ago.

[Steph]

So why do we still need the CSM?

Because CCP relies upon them as a PR crutch. They like to show them off and flaunt how much they're listening to the players and get all the news sites talking about them.

And then when CCP fucks up, the CSM can use that to get all the news sites talking about how badly CCP's screwed things over. See also: Monoclegate

[Bartholomeus Crane]

Mittens claiming the fruits of other peoples' labour again then. Just like with t20 then. Nothing changes. Not really ...

[Marlona Sky]

No, we really didn't. I don't see CSM's role as saying to CCP, "Hey CCP, here are the stats for the 47 new ships you should add to EVE. BTW, here is the design for new, awesome POSes." That doesn't mean when CCP shows us how they want to change capitals, we can't point out flaws or make suggestions. Again, come on, use some common sense.

The same amount of 'design' that players have suggest is the exact same amount of 'design' that the CSM now claims to do on so many different things. Why is it OK for the CSM to wear that hat but not any other players?

"You say tomato, and I say tomato." It is the same fucking thing, but somehow the way you say tomato is the right way? Go fuck yourself.

[Xiang Jiao]

After reading the the relevant section of the Mittani piece, I'd have to say that there's nothing I dislike written therein, except maybe the motivation to take over the CSM for the benefit of the alliance, but I suppose that could be chalked up to paying the grunts lip service. All the critical items directed at CCP and the state of the game seem reasonable to me. We may disagree on little details, and he may not have many fans within the ranks of FHC, but the Mittani should know that there are screaming retards here that share his sentiments. Eve Online needs more resources devoted to it or the subs will continue to drop off.


In the coming weeks we are going to be making some extremely loud statements regarding the neglect of FiS, the failure of Incarna, and the need for CCP's management to pull the game out of this stall. We need something new to do, not something new to wear.

I hope this is not just hot air to settle the disgruntled masses. I await anxiously to see how the council acts to address these nagging problems.

Regarding supercarrier balacing, I've stated before that the devs can't balance ships in a vacuum. They need to make an effort to balance all capitals against each other and their support fleets to have a chance at making meaningful changes. Those changes need to be tested for an extended period before they make it to Tranquility, and they need to listen to the general feedback. Invite players with the skills to fly supers to mass tests and make the ships and deadspace/officer modules available for them. Ships go boom during testing so also facilitate a way for players to easily get replacements. Hell, I'd log into Sisi to fuck around in a Nyx, ever though I'd never fly one on Tranquility. It would be trivial for me to get Fighter Bombers trained on Sisi as well.

CCP needs to generate buzz among the existing player base so they get excited about upcoming changes and get involved. Fuck Incarna, and fuck Dust; we just aren't that impressed by it.

[Marlona Sky]

After reading the the relevant section of the Mittani piece, I'd have to say that there's nothing I dislike written therein, except maybe the motivation to take over the CSM for the benefit of the alliance, but I suppose that could be chalked up to paying the grunts lip service. All the critical items directed at CCP and the state of the game seem reasonable to me. We may disagree on little details, and he may not have many fans within the ranks of FHC, but the Mittani should know that there are screaming retards here that share his sentiments. Eve Online needs more resources devoted to it or the subs will continue to drop off.



I hope this is not just hot air to settle the disgruntled masses. I await anxiously to see how the council acts to address these nagging problems.

Regarding supercarrier balacing, I've stated before that the devs can't balance ships in a vacuum. They need to make an effort to balance all capitals against each other and their support fleets to have a chance at making meaningful changes. Those changes need to be tested for an extended period before they make it to Tranquility, and they need to listen to the general feedback. Invite players with the skills to fly supers to mass tests and make the ships and deadspace/officer modules available for them. Ships go boom during testing so also facilitate a way for players to easily get replacements. Hell, I'd log into Sisi to fuck around in a Nyx, ever though I'd never fly one on Tranquility. It would be trivial for me to get Fighter Bombers trained on Sisi as well.

CCP needs to generate buzz among the existing player base so they get excited about upcoming changes and get involved. Fuck Incarna, and fuck Dust; we just aren't that impressed by it.

I agree, even with the mittani crap. I believe we all want the same thing. We want EVE to shine again. We all just have different roads we want to take to get there all the while shouting at everyone else how their road is the best road to take. I am at the point I don't give a shit which road as long as we get there. So if someone wants to be the self proclaimed savior of EVE online to give themselves something to wank off to at night along wit their alliance, so be it.

The changes mittani talks about that he believes might happens are pathetic in the grand scheme of things for ship balancing. For starters, nerfing two ship classes and buffing two with a couple number tweaks does not magically balance all ship combat in the game. That 'brain storm' of an idea literally only took them one afternoon to come up with, all of course has already been suggested by the players for a few years now in countless threads on multiple forums. Neither CCP, much less the CSM, brought any of that to the table. The other thing is, if that is all they are going to do, why in the fuck does it take them sooooooooo loooooooooong to implement it? It only takes two minutes to change an attribute in coding. So we are talking at most, one day of work by one guy? Make the changes and give everyone max skills on sisi and conduct a shit ton of tests. Work with a fuck ton of different strategies and situations and play them out. Many, many times and collect the data. Do this for a couple months till you get things to perform at what they are intended to do. Then put that shit out on TQ and CONTINUE to monitor and give a shit about all the changes and keep making tweaks here and there.

Anyone can tell you the real work will be the testing and follow up changes. Both of which CCP are a stranger too, especially the later.

[noobcake]

Mitten's post is just us getting started. It is long past time for CCP to start putting a lot more resources on Flying in Space (or as Mittens says, what we call "EVE Online") and less on walking in stations. We find it just as unacceptable as the rest of you that the Gallente rebalancing is not coming until sometime next year.

sorry, but like CCP, I'll believe stuff the CSM says when it actually happens.

[Trebor Daehdoow]

Gentlepods, my deepest apologies. Somehow I neglected to subscribe to this estimable thread, and so missed out on everything past page 1. This grievous error has now been corrected.

In my absence, it appears that you have gotten yourselves into somewhat of a tizzy. Pray tell, what I can do to assuage your concerns?

I am preparing a blog posting that gives my perspective on the events of the summer; it should be ready later today, or perhaps on the Sabbath, depending upon what husbandly duties are demanded of me when my bride awakens.

[Lana Torrin]

Gentlepods, my deepest apologies. Somehow I neglected to subscribe to this estimable thread, and so missed out on everything past page 1. This grievous error has now been corrected.

In my absence, it appears that you have gotten yourselves into somewhat of a tizzy. Pray tell, what I can do to assuage your concerns?

I am preparing a blog posting that gives my perspective on the events of the summer; it should be ready later today, or perhaps on the Sabbath, depending upon what husbandly duties are demanded of me when my bride awakens.

TBH part of the tizzy was me just getting angry at life..

[Trebor Daehdoow]

TBH part of the tizzy was me just getting angry at life..

In that case, I suggest you take a stress pill...

[Sponk]

In that case, I suggest you take a stress pill...
I read that wrong and took a distress pill instead oh shiiiiiiiiii

[Trebor Daehdoow]

I read that wrong and took a distress pill instead oh shiiiiiiiiii

In that case, let it all out... but remember to wash your hands afterwards.

[Cortess]

In the coming weeks we are going to be making some extremely loud statements regarding the neglect of FiS, the failure of Incarna, and the need for CCP's management to pull the game out of this stall. We need something new to do, not something new to wear.

Little bad wording here ... i'd prefer polishing of existing content insetad of new. PI for example. Balancing etc.

Just nipicking. Just in case ccp says "but WiS is absolutly new".

[Virtuozzo]

Mitten's post is just us getting started. It is long past time for CCP to start putting a lot more resources on Flying in Space (or as Mittens says, what we call "EVE Online") and less on walking in stations. We find it just as unacceptable as the rest of you that the Gallente rebalancing is not coming until sometime next year.

Applying that push is pointless now, as Mittens can easily find out from stoffer and is probably quite aware. It's called planning. CSM's cycle does not match that of CCP, it could have yes but it doesn't. It leaves y'all in a position of extreme dependancy, which is not necessary and can be mitigated. But that is a target really already for CSM8. Even this winter's focus is subject to that divide, even with stoffer engaging on topics and in spite of (or rather because of) CCP's methods any resources allocated are subject to so many things that there is never any guarantee for those allocations to persist.

[Mike deVoid]

My tinfoiled 2 cents: CCP have already said publicly that after the winter expansion they will go back to focusing on FiS and renovating existing content (also coincides with three end of 18 months). Mittens/CSM are aware that they were unable to sufficiently change the focus to FiS before then, due to existing plans. CSM will now make a big song and dance about 'making' CCP go back to focusing on FiS after this winter, which CCP are going to do anyway. CSM comes out looking powerful and so nullsec bloc voting will remain strong. CCP also get their PR tool of saying that the CSM *really does* influence CCP.

TL;DR - the upcoming stick is made entirely of carrot.

However, I don't really believe the above. I think the reality is more likely that mittens/CSM will take advantage of the end of the 18 month plan to force CCP to focus even more strongly on FiS than they may be currently intending to. Up till now mittens strategy of carrot to exert this influence has not yielded the results or change in rhetoric or whatever from the people who control the purse strings. And so stick must now be used. It might not work either, but there are little other options at hand.

[Virtuozzo]

5 year plan Mike, 5 year plan. Meanwhile after the winter things have to go in overdrive for Dust514, as well as WoD. And CCP will have to dive in on the next venture, while in the mean time Carbon will have to be established as a leading example of engineering excellence. All resources are equal, but most are in CCP's sacred core not required for a selfsustaining revenue stream. One they are convinced to be able to adapt and alter flexibly, at low cost.

Do not count on it. Hint: it's not fashionable.

[Sponk]

Am awaiting learning exactly what the stick side of carrot & stick looks like.

[Kate Yeats]

(also coincides with three end of 18 months).

I thought this meant one, possibly both of the Eve teams re-tasked to Incarna would move back to Eve. I'm not sure why there's a persistent belief FiS is suddenly going to get a huge influx of eager developers ready to fix all problems, unless that plan has significantly changed or CCP is willing to gut the WoD team to support FiS.

[Lana Torrin]

I thought this meant one, possibly both of the Eve teams re-tasked to Incarna would move back to Eve. I'm not sure why there's a persistent belief FiS is suddenly going to get a huge influx of eager developers ready to fix all problems, unless that plan has significantly changed or CCP is willing to gut the WoD team to support FiS.

Just taking a stab, but im guessing currently the WoD team is a few artists/modelers and the guys doing carbon. Until carbon is finished WoD isn't really going anywhere (which was the point of carbon). CCPs biggest drive will be to get Dust out of the door and while this has its own team, it is likely that a lot of server side and eve development will be pushed toward this. The 2 teams (its 2 right?) that are currently working on FiS will likely be it for a while..

[Virtuozzo]

I thought this meant one, possibly both of the Eve teams re-tasked to Incarna would move back to Eve. I'm not sure why there's a persistent belief FiS is suddenly going to get a huge influx of eager developers ready to fix all problems, unless that plan has significantly changed or CCP is willing to gut the WoD team to support FiS.

Look at it this way, which "environment" of EVE requires the most attention / resources for commercial development. FiS, or Incarna?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm sure CCP has learned a lesson about polishing. But they have not learned the fundamental business lessons here. And for Incarna to be worth anything, it will have to be developed and expanded the way EVE "as we knew it" was developed and expanded.

Meanwhile the bulk of CCP's resources, are required now across parallel product lines.

[jimmychrist]

The lesson about polish was that new features sell better than fixing existing content

[Cortess]

The longer the release of the minutes take, the less people will be around to care about.

Oh wait, that's the plan, isn't it!?

[Kate Yeats]

The 2 teams (its 2 right?)

Going off the minutes from may and last years devblog :

Eve - 3 teams
Trilambda (art guys)
Commie Pinkos (Missions/Complexes)
Team BFF (little things/null expansion)

There's also Gridlock but they don't count them as stictly an eve team. There's also a patch/deployment team you could also count if you were feeling generous.

On the flip side, Incarna has 7 teams (plus two eve teams, don't know how many of the 7 are borrowed from WoD), Dust and the eve link 1 team.

[Xiang Jiao]

Going off the minutes from may and last years devblog :

Eve - 3 teams
Trilambda (art guys)
Commie Pinkos (Missions/Complexes)
Team BFF (little things/null expansion)

There's also Gridlock but they don't count them as stictly an eve team. There's also a patch/deployment team you could also count if you were feeling generous.

On the flip side, Incarna has 7 teams (plus two eve teams, don't know how many of the 7 are borrowed from WoD), Dust and the eve link 1 team.

I think you're missing the feature team - the team who did Incursions. As I understand it, Gridlock and BFF were borne out of the Summer of Rage.


In-space features

(3 teams, approximately 22 developers)

Currently, the plan is to have three teams working on EVE (the space parts): a feature team, the mission design team and an art/effects team. The feature team has chosen to work on a PVE related iteration. In short, they‘ll be expanding and iterating on PVE in EVE, bringing together players for immersive and engaging group content. The art/effects team will be finishing up on left-over work all the way back from Apocrypha and on some level even Trinity, where we have not fully taken advantage of new features of Trinity 2.0. This will mean prettier effects that perform better, especially in fleet fights.

Regarding the teams on loan to Incarna:


INCARNA

As of August 17th, there will be about nine teams working on Incarna. Of those, seven are on loan from other projects - to which they will return once Incarna is launched - and the remainder are EVE development teams. The EVE teams can work on both Incarna and in-space features, but they are assigned to Incarna for now. Actually one of the teams is spending one and a half releases on Incarna, the other about three releases. So the resource cost from EVE is very contained while the size and impact of the feature will be massive.

According to Zulu's plan, one of the Eve teams should be coming back to FiS before the Winter expansion, while the other will stay until after next Summer's release. Whether or not they're still sticking to this plan is uncertain, and it would be nice if the council could get a clearer picture of the division of labor leading up to the Winter. For example, which teams are working on establishments? Are there plans to take any of the artists from other projects, like WoD, and getting them assigned to Eve for a release or two? The company used the art department bottleneck excuse in the May minutes, so perhaps some more resources are needed. Also, after Winter, which teams are then allocated to Dust, as that will clearly be the feature of the Summer expansion?

[Kate Yeats]

I think you're missing the feature team - the team who did Incursions. As I understand it, Gridlock and BFF were borne out of the Summer of Rage.

That list of the 3 teams comes from the May minutes, on limited battery life so can't pull the quote for you, but essentially CCP updated what the 3 eve teams were working on (being those listed) and then added Gridlock.

My feeling is Gridlock is the same performance team listed in last year's 'Iterative development' dev blog, which would confirm the summer of rage changed nothing in terms of CCP's 12 month plan at least. I'm sure that's not really a surprise.




For example, which teams are working on establishments?
Your optimism is refreshing. Don't forget we should also expect:
A large slew of NEX items
Null-sec revamp
Establishments
3 remaining CQs
Overhaul of contraband and customs, plus player driven customs scanning mechanic.

All in just under 3 months. I think we can assume CCP aren't going to meet the commitment to getting all of this into Winter and some are going to slip. The NEX items I imagine are pretty safe.


Are there plans to take any of the artists from other projects, like WoD, and getting them assigned to Eve for a release or two?

The call for CCP to shuffle teams onto Eve to help out has been fairly consistent this last 12 months and the response has been simliarly resolute, while Eve teams moved to Incarna, this was because Eve benefits from Incarna. Moving teams from other projects, WoD for instance, to Eve just isn't going to happen. From a business sense there's no reason to risk the launch of your new product slipping simply to provide a better release for your 'perfectly fine' current product.


The company used the art department bottleneck excuse in the May minutes, so perhaps some more resources are needed.
And the QA bottleneck, but honestly the resource bottleneck has been their consistent excuse to the current form of the CSM (I never paid any attention to the first failed CSM implementation) and that STILL hasn't been addressed and we're what, 3 years in?

[Durk]

Does anyone actually CARE about those minutes btw?

[a mitten]

Some points:

*EVE has very divided constituents which self-segregate into cliques. FHC cares deeply about the minutes and the adulteration thereof. I do as well because it impacts the CSM's power and role, but not a single person out of my coalition has bothered asking me about the minutes since the Emergency Summit. Not one. Nullsec doesn't give a shit about the minutes. Nullsec cares about gameplay - stagnation, FiS neglect, Dominion sucking and supercaps being stupid. It amuses me somewhat to see the extremely small FHC clique write a lot of badposts about how supercap nerfs are not relevant and are just minor issues.

*At the micro-level the CSM has tremendous sway if handled properly. That's the FiS content/expansion priority level. You can disagree about this and be like Marlona or Evelwhatever, and that's fine - I'll keep the power where it belongs (in our hands) while you deny that it exists.

*At the macro-level, and by this I mean the business allocation level, the CSM's power may or may not exist. A well-orchestrated media campaign (see Summer of Rage) got results in the form of Gridlock and Little Things, but these are relatively minor human resource shifts at the corporate level. One might argue that Little Things/Gridlock are actually an example of micro-level CSM influence and not macro at all. The core problem facing EVE at the macro level is the neglect of Flying in Space as EVE is used as a Carbon testbed for DUST and WoD technologies.

*It's very important to distinguish micro-level gains and quality at CCP from macro-level fuckups. The quality of CCP employee working on FiS has rocketed upward over the years. Tallest and Soundwave are hypercompetent. Greyscale finally was taught how nullsec works and 'gets it' at last. Hammerhead is off focusing on things unrelated to FiS, which means we may finally see a second midslot on a Retribution. Gridlock - Veritas and Masterplan - are the best coders CCP has. This nexus of competence shouldn't be minimized while we, at the same time, excoriate the terrible business decisions and foolishness that upper management have thrust upon us.

[Virtuozzo]

*EVE has very divided constituents which self-segregate into cliques. FHC cares deeply about the minutes and the adulteration thereof. I do as well because it impacts the CSM's power and role, but not a single person out of my coalition has bothered asking me about the minutes since the Emergency Summit. Not one. Nullsec doesn't give a shit about the minutes. Nullsec cares about gameplay - stagnation, FiS neglect, Dominion sucking and supercaps being stupid. It amuses me somewhat to see the extremely small FHC clique write a lot of badposts about how supercap nerfs are not relevant and are just minor issues.

Not necessarily. Particularly when observing the same baseline behaviour across various communities yes I agree it is easier to just slap on a stamp and deal with it that way. Makes it easier, absolutely, especially when it gets difficult.


*At the micro-level the CSM has tremendous sway if handled properly. That's the FiS content/expansion priority level. You can disagree about this and be like Marlona or Evelwhatever, and that's fine - I'll keep the power where it belongs (in our hands) while you deny that it exists.

Don't be dumb. It's fair to say that even if you manage to reel in other devs with the talk of "me and stoffer we go way back, we have each other's back, etc etc" it is irrelevant for any structurally positive trend creation. It's even remarkably easy to have that derail itself into a social engineering tale that removes the veil of fanboyism. Which is what CCP ultimately requires, now with CSM for their purposes between them and customers, in a position of advocacy. Sure, people can roleplay tough on skype and at a table, but it is a charade ultimately, since those above those guys on the other side know who depends on who.

Heck, even the days of "lobbying by seduction à la cause is gonna be awesome" are over. Business instrumentation is steadily taking over there. The bigger the distance between those who make the real decisions and the actual product line the more corporate CCP becomes - independant of business requirements and the next great plan / project.

I'm really sorry. Honestly. But you have no power. CSM can have power. If it so chooses. If you had power, you would not have let CCP put CSM between them and its customers - unless it would suit you, obviously. If that is the case, by all means. But I doubt that is the case, at least not consciously. In spite of what many folks in a lot of places have grown to think, I do think you actually like EVE. For all that it is. And that brings a bigger picture to the table - especially now with a bit more insight into how CCP really functions, and how it is changing.


*At the macro-level, and by this I mean the business allocation level, the CSM's power may or may not exist. A well-orchestrated media campaign (see Summer of Rage) got results in the form of Gridlock and Little Things, but these are relatively minor human resource shifts at the corporate level. One might argue that Little Things/Gridlock are actually an example of micro-level CSM influence and not macro at all. The core problem facing EVE at the macro level is the neglect of Flying in Space as EVE is used as a Carbon testbed for DUST and WoD technologies.

Choose your field, before chosing your target. When discussing or even mentioning media campaign options (pressure management hello) you're going to have to identify the useful channels. Want to apply pressure towards answers on the resource allocations and corresponding concerns for the EVE/Dust link? Target console consumer groups, as a start. Not aggressively, but in an exploratory manner. You'll be surprised how little room CCCP has for maneuvering in such manners.

That is obviously an extreme example. One I can't endorse. But there are simpler and better ways. Lead by example. Set the pace. Right now CSM is chasing after CCP, and that is how the core there wants it. Does it serve CSM or its members, or the customers it should represent? No. Far from. CSM does not have to be in a position of dependancy. It can choose to not be in that position. But, choose your field, and - I know - rediscover transparancy. Visibility is what makes people move.

The macro level of business, is exactly where the greatest potential lies for any instrument such as CSM (regardless of defined as stakeholder, focus group, lobby, advocates or social brosef engineers) towards power. Because this is the weakest link of CCP in terms of its own requirements for continuity & growth. It really is not rocket science. You want a platform? You really can pick and choose. But spotlights are just as selective as snapshots, and thus as unstable. Consistancy, visibility, and so forth. I know, a lot to ask considering it is a volunteer group. But that is a choice that has been made.

The core problem is that at the heart (and the core) of it, CCP as a company still operates under a very dangerous business / culture doctrine. A mindset so good for a startup to kick off, unfortunately so heavily reinforced and internalised by select few that it has become doctrine. CCP does whatever it wants for select people internal and liaised. Not for customers. It's not about them anymore, but about customers. That is how you build an enterprise. And it is very easy to create room for people and awesome in there. But the other way around, does not work for continuity.


*It's very important to distinguish micro-level gains and quality at CCP from macro-level fuckups. The quality of CCP employee working on FiS has rocketed upward over the years. Tallest and Soundwave are hypercompetent. Greyscale finally was taught how nullsec works and 'gets it' at last. Hammerhead is off focusing on things unrelated to FiS, which means we may finally see a second midslot on a Retribution. Gridlock - Veritas and Masterplan - are the best coders CCP has. This nexus of competence shouldn't be minimized while we, at the same time, excoriate the terrible business decisions and foolishness that upper management have thrust upon us.

You're joking right. Are you taking snapshots now? =P I admit that with Helgi out of the picture, and Sophie at the helm of HR is the start of a fresh wind. But that wind is not established until it becomes clear whether investments will really be made there. Consider how CCP abused waving the flag of Jackie (Tallest has good reasons to be careful, just like plenty others), and subsequently discarding her on a whim. Soundwave and Tallest are just as subject to the random positivity syndrome by those forces, regardless of competence or effort. Even regardless of the lobbying.

Even when you'd be dealing with a complete array of brilliant people on the workfloor, CCP's systems are a shamble with various parts still using stuff where others can't access even with that being required. Add to that the complete amateurism and unwillingness overall (regardless of good people) to do work properly ... come on. It is going to be a mighty long road for that to be addressed. And most of them are missing the changes, as they apply just to those who are more equal than the few. In spite of a not so subtle hint of "HR as a resource".

Noah on eh, leave. Nathan sailing off. Sure, chokepoints are moving. But they are only moving around for the most part. See CS. See Art. See webcell. I'm sure the guys appreciate that you give them kudos, and I agree they do deserve them. But that is not a method of gaining points with them. Banking on that, even as part of a larger instrumentation, well .. it's the same shit we had in the days when folks ran around talking about awesome people with special test server corps and all that. We all know how that ended - regardless of all the good people and the best intentions.

You are right, CCP has some pretty damn good, fine and smart people. Folks who really do engage. But they should realise that they are a resource starting this winter. And that, will have an impact gradually on how hard people stand up, and how often. The stone tablets (ask Seleene) still reign. I'm not even mentioning the selective application of an agile Alli. You don't even have to look that far though, to find stupidity such as "let's throw our documentation process of old shit to outsourcing - without so much as specifications of intended or unintended use since nobody has that".

This is CCP. A legion of amazing people does not stand against one guy with a stone tablet. Ever. Best case is to :lol lobby: for resources under a guise of awesome, and try to make ends meet.

For FiS, it's a big question whether promises of no reshuffling are kept this round - for real, not like previous promises. As it remains a big question of dependancies ... folks on FiS and projects there have their requirements too, think of Art (just as a reminder of that huge stumbling block of bullshit excuses). Good people? Sure. Is that enough? It's not even a good start. I'd be looking for some iron clad guarantees on team authorities, and mandates in resource allocations - long prior to release planning.

At CCP, terrible business decisions and foolishness that upper and middle management throw around (internally and externally) always minimise (AND minimalise) any nexus of competence.

[two step]

I think you're missing the feature team - the team who did Incursions. As I understand it, Gridlock and BFF were borne out of the Summer of Rage.

BFF was the feature team for Incarna.

[Xiang Jiao]

BFF was the feature team for Incarna.

Pardon my confusion. BFF wasn't allocated to work on Eve after Summer 2010, in response to the player uproar. They were already assigned to Eve and transitioned to the Little Things project after Incursions was complete?


Nullsec doesn't give a shit about the minutes.

While your coalition may not care, that doesn't mean there's no significance at all to officially tracking what came out of the emergency summit, and following up on promises lovingly whispered across table. There was a lot of combustible content covered by the meeting, not the least of which is holding CCP to the path of no MT beyond vanity, which you even admit is a failure. What kind of influence can the players and the council hope to have on the macro level decisions? Will the management, in an act of desperation, turn to expanding their MT offerings or do they already recognize that the decision to bring MT to Eve was a misstep?

[TheManFromDelmonte]

You don't even have to look that far though, to find stupidity such as "let's throw our documentation process of old shit to outsourcing - without so much as specifications of intended or unintended use since nobody has that".

Fucking fuck. Seriously? The use of it isn't even the important part, it's accuracy and internalising value. You've no way to QC work on something like that, it's essentially research. And when it's done the most valuable thing you've made isn't the docs it's the knowledge in people's heads.

I mean if you did give them some idea of use (telling them you want to fix lag for example) they can highlight areas you might want to look closely at and then you'd have some possibility of QC. But even so it's just.. ah screw it. This is why I don't read the eve forums here anymore.

[Steph]

And the QA bottleneck,

implying CCP has a QA department

[Mynxee]

Hey CSM guys, are you any closer than you were a few days ago to reaching some kind of agreement on the minutes so they can be published?

[Virtuozzo]

Hey CSM guys, are you any closer than you were a few days ago to reaching some kind of agreement on the minutes so they can be published?

It's weekend, it's CCP.

Style over substance, fearfully, without transparancy, consistantly. Priorities ....

[Mynxee]

It's weekend, it's CCP.

Style over substance, fearfully, without transparancy, consistantly. Priorities ....

Well it wasn't the weekend yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that...e.g., the "last few days".

[Virtuozzo]

Well it wasn't the weekend yesterday, or the day before that, or the day before that...e.g., the "last few days".

Alright, rephrase then.

It's Reykjavik? Weekend most of the time =P

It's CCP? Well, heh.

Serious though. Style for impact situation. You've dealt with them on that before.

Edit: equally serious, I'm sure they are getting there. It's just stuff about words now. At this point the question of CCP's priorities has become more interesting than those minutes. Frankly, for the sake of EVE it would be better for more delay.

[two step]

Hey CSM guys, are you any closer than you were a few days ago to reaching some kind of agreement on the minutes so they can be published?

Nope. We haven't heard a peep out of CCP in the past couple days, which is one of the causes of our anger.

[Surveyor]

Nope. We haven't heard a peep out of CCP in the past couple days, which is one of the causes of our anger.

I can see how angry you guys are :derper:

[Trebor Daehdoow]

You don't even have to look that far though, to find stupidity such as "let's throw our documentation process of old shit to outsourcing - without so much as specifications of intended or unintended use since nobody has that".

Yeah, that one had me shaking my head in utter disbelief. But hey, writing documentation is for nerds.

[Mynxee]

Nope. We haven't heard a peep out of CCP in the past couple days, which is one of the causes of our anger.

By far the most maddening aspect of being on the CSM was for me the persistent communications lag and frequent non-responses from CCP. I guess even having their key players on Skype doesn't solve that problem. It sure doesn't seem very promising that these minutes will be published anytime soon through official channels.

[Kate Yeats]

Nullsec doesn't give a shit about the minutes. Nullsec cares about gameplay - stagnation, FiS neglect, Dominion sucking and supercaps being stupid. It amuses me somewhat to see the extremely small FHC clique write a lot of badposts about how supercap nerfs are not relevant and are just minor issues

Some 14% voted. 10% of which backed your horse. That's a staggering 1.4% of Eve that give a shit. I do believe the 'couldn't give a fuck about supercaps' are massively in the majority.

[a mitten]

Silly badposter. You shouldn't attribute all of nullsec to those who voted for me. After all, every CSM including the alts except for Meissa, Trebor and Two Step are nullsec bloc candidates. That's... 11 out of 14, depending on how many PL votes Prom got.

[Evelgrivion]

Wait, there are people who don't consider supercaps to be one of the biggest problems with EVE Online today? As a not subscribed lowsec dweller, I must ask you, what on earth it is about supercaps that makes them anything less than public enemy number one for existing Flying In Space content?

On the plus side, they're being dealt with. On the downside, it's happening two years later than it should have.

[noobcake]

Little bad wording here ... i'd prefer polishing of existing content insetad of new. PI for example. Balancing etc.

Just nipicking. Just in case ccp says "but WiS is absolutly new".

polishing existing content would indeed give us something new to do. Stop getting caught up in the wording...

[noobcake]

Does anyone actually CARE about those minutes btw?

uh...yes

[Tsubutai]

A well-orchestrated media campaign (see Summer of Rage) got results in the form of Gridlock and Little Things
It's interesting that you bring up CSM V's biggest successes here. I remember you attacking CSM V for their for their approach to negotiating with CCP, deriding it as being ineffective. However, I can't help but notice that at this point, you and two step are sounding exactly like the CSM V guys did towards the end of their term, and seem to be having more or less the same level of influence - you've got some small changes implemented that are (probably going to be) good for the game, but are having very little influence in the broader sense, i.e. in terms of persuading the more senior people at CCP that they need to stop being so obsessed with chasing new products and to focus a lot more heavily on addressing the issues with Eve. Do you now have more sympathy for Mynxee and co?


It amuses me somewhat to see the extremely small FHC clique write a lot of badposts about how supercap nerfs are not relevant and are just minor issues.
I don't know where you get the impression that Marlona and co represent the view of the majority of the people who post here (well, actually, I can guess - you only read the threads that deal directly with the CSM?), but the overwhelming majority of FHC guys who still play eve are strongly in favour of ship rebalancing in general and supercap rebalancing in particular.

[Steph]

Does anyone actually CARE about those minutes btw?

tbh I only care because CCP's done a right proper job of fucking them up. If they'd been released on time I wouldn't give a rat's arse, but the fact that CCP keeps dragging its heels makes me want to see what they're so terrified of people finding out.

[B.B.]

Mittens, learn to say "I don't know". If used appropriately, it will be often.