Why doesnt DICs have t2 resist?

[Anxiir]

Why doesnt DICs have t2 resist?

I was really looking forward to flying this (sabre) and somebody happened to mention fitting a anti-em rig...

So whats the deal?

[Marlona Sky]

Why does CCP :ccp: ?

[Sponk]

Balance reasons. Just like covops and inties have less resists than AF.
Just rest assured in the knowledge that your bubble will outlast your ship, trapping your pod.

[Anxiir]

/me /wrist

oh wait i got some cheep vodka.

*chugs vodka*

It actually caught me by surprise though damnit. there goes my plans for world domination.

[Sponk]

dics are still hero tho. Even without bubbles they're p. vicious.

If you want tank, go for a hic.

[FatFreddy]

Why do you use singular for a plural?

[Sponk]

he doesn't afraid of anything

[smagd]

Look, 70k EHP interdictors (http://eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_41&page=6)...

[Anxiir]

Look, 70k EHP interdictors (http://eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_41&page=6)...

haha thats pretty win.

[Rudolf Miller]

If you gave em a full rack of T2 resists, my bet is that frigate pvp would get a lot more scarce. Those fuckers would be hard to kill. Also, the sabre would become retarded OP, the heretic would also be pwn. The eris and flycatcher would be kinda fail still


Look, 70k EHP interdictors (http://eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_41&page=6)...

lol

[Ignition SemperFi]

wait your complaining about a sabre.... lmao

[cillisia]

ARGH change the thread title so its grammatically correct please

[whispous]

Interdictors not having tech two resists is fine.

[RoemySchneider]

well... we could give them the destroyer malus as well....

[Sneakyfool]

Doesn't need, Sabre's are the win.

[Anxiir]

ARGH change the thread title so its grammatically correct please

if i was sober mebby. but nah

[Anxiir]

Doesn't need, Sabre's are the win.

i finally got drunk enough to get that. what did it say?

what the fuck. thats not what i quoted

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Not really sure what happened in this thread but sabres are already pretty damn powerful in their class so bitching about the lack of extra resists is kinda silly.

[Anxiir]

Not sure either. I asked a legit question and get bitched at for bitching. *shrugs*

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Not sure either. I asked a legit question and get bitched at for bitching. *shrugs*Question was pretty silly actually since the answer is "dictors are actually pretty damn fine as is".

[Marlona Sky]

Question was pretty silly actually since the answer is "sabres are actually pretty damn fine as is".

FYP

[Pattern]

dictors do die too easily. In general, they need +1kms more speed - so do interceptors tbfh

[whispous]

dictors do die too easily. In general, they need +1kms more speed - so do interceptors tbfh

Definitely not

[Garst Tyrell]

buff dictor's tank and sig radius to make them more useful in fleets, nerf their dps so they cant be wtfsolo fag troll boats with a cloak (sabre)

[Sponk]

I thought sabres could run dual MSEs? Seems pretty decent for a destroyer hull.

All the dictors should have decent bonuses like a Sabre, imo.

[Shiroi Okami]

There is literally nothing wrong with dictors, the other dictors bonuses are fine too, both in a direct combat role and for their fleet bubblers role. (Heretic and flycatcher rape face in frig/dessie combat since rocket buff, eris is a glass cannon which can push out almost 500 dps)

[Pattern]

Their too slow. Having a high chance of dying almost everytime their deployed isn't great tbh.

[Shiroi Okami]

Their too slow. Having a high chance of dying almost everytime their deployed isn't great tbh.

They are as fast as their destroyer counterparts, which is as it should be. Sabres and heretics with taranis (or higher) level speed would be complete bullshit

[Pattern]

They are as fast as their destroyer counterparts, which is as it should be. Sabres and heretics with taranis (or higher) level speed would be complete bullshit
Interceptors should be going 1-2 kms faster also. I've pretty much given up on frigs since the speed nerf because there just not fast enough anymore. Being realivily cheap is no excuse for being unable to do a job without a reasonable expectation of survival.

[Shiroi Okami]

Interceptors should be going 1-2 kms faster also. I've pretty much given up on frigs since the speed nerf because there just not fast enough anymore. Being realivily cheap is no excuse for being unable to do a job without a reasonable expectation of survival.

I'm interested to know why you think interceptors should be faster. Comparatively to the other ship classes (Dramiel aside), the speed of interceptors is fine for their role as both tacklers and straight up combat frigates. The 3.5-4kms bracket (Speed discounting speed modifiers) is a good balance between the speed required to tackle a target/get into a fight, and the speed required to get out and kite drones. If inties were 1-2kms faster, there is not a single light drone that would be able to damage a long point stiletto/malediction/ares, at all. Frankly it'd be turning every gang tackler into a faster dramiel, which is completely stupid. The dramiel is still too fast as it is, we don't need more ships that can break 6kms heated with no speed mods.

[Pattern]

People generally accept that frig speeds where merged too hard. Sans snakes, gang boosters and uber faction mods. A decent ceptors pilot did 6-7kms. They still died a lot to missle spam, sniper HACs and recons however a decent pilot had a fair chance of survival. Same deal with interdictors. not only are they much slower, but med/large projectiles now carry much more bite with neuts and ECM drones being as common as ever.

Now we have interdictors that are mostly out run by vagabonds with almost everyone flying dramiels, HICs or interdictor piloting uncloaking the domain of noobs or alts.

[Shiroi Okami]

People generally accept that frig speeds where merged too hard. Sans snakes, gang boosters and uber faction mods. A decent ceptors pilot did 6-7kms. They still died a lot to missle spam, sniper HACs and recons however a decent pilot had a fair chance of survival. Same deal with interdictors. not only are they much slower, but med/large projectiles now carry much more bite with neuts and ECM drones being as common as ever.

Now we have interdictors that are mostly out run by vagabonds with almost everyone flying dramiels, HICs or interdictor piloting uncloaking the domain of noobs or alts.

I can see your logic here as far as ship like the eris go (Which top out at about 1750ms with no speed mods), but the sabre with it's 2500ms base MWD speed is pretty fine. It'as alos plenty surviveable and fulfils it's role very well, both for fleet work and soloing. What i don't see is how you think making everything as fast as the dramiel will somehow solve the problem. Skilled ceptor pilots still have an excellent chance of survival when engaging in straight up combat (taranis/crusader, before and after the rise of the dramiel) or tackling (a well flown stiletto is particularly difficult to kill, even for a blob), the reason you see ceptors dying so often and easily is because 90% of eve is flat out retarded. Buffing a ship class to compensate for the retards that fly them is just ridiculous.

[RoemySchneider]

with that mwd sig bonus, ceptors are actually quite hard to lose.
with that big 'negative' bonus, skilling inty V really gets the shipclass going; similar to logis.

triple-OD stiletto still does 5km/s+ sans heat vOv
since (non-vaga) cruisers tend to struggle with the 2.5km/s hurdle, i find that plentyful as well.



as far as dessies go... aye, their sigs could do with improvements here and there.
a sabre with overdrives manages a meager 3km/s. i wouldn't mind pulling that up by ~25 +/- 5%

[Pattern]

I think everyones locked on in the sabre as the benchmark, reality is the performance of the other interdictors couldn't be further away. It's not just speed, it's fittings and the EHP advantages those fittings provide.

5kms with 3 OD's is quite poor imo. One of my main problems with the ceptor speed reduction was that straight line speed /= everyday speed. In an orbit, most ceptors are pulling 3-4kms, vs typical 0.0 drake/cane blobs you just get BBQ'd. we've stopped flying them on all op's because there too squishy and never last the roams. Better off having someone in a t3, dram, hic or vagabond tbh.

[RoemySchneider]

hummm? a dram should die more easily in the same situations (unless you're specifically looking at dual prop fittings that 'prefer' to get that close)
happily orbit @ 26km where 5km/s is indeed np ; and use that long point vOv

5km/s with a sig of 85.5

... maybe there's a psychological factor á la "ah i'm just ín a ceptor *dumb approach* " vs "heck i'm not going to risk these 100mil of a dramiel"

i'd gladly support any approach to distinguish properly between ODs, nanofibres and istabs (again) though.







but it's true; a single drake will still impose ~40dps
- make that <20 drakes and they can alpha that stiletto without so much as a painter :roll:

the 'new' missile formula may be better than the one from the nano era and despite the caldari 1v1 wannabes moaning about the damage, such critical numbers are too easily achieved and high speed&small sig are not rewarded. fiddling with the DRF part of the equation could do that trick. question only is: what critical mass is ok to one-shot ceptors at full speeds? i'm sure we all can agree that <20 is too few.

but if we _only_ want to boost ceptors: i'd support any motion to return to the (very) old missile 'pathing' that did not cut corners but followed the target (whatever the technical term may be) - and then slash the h.missile speed to 4.5km/s so ceptors can actually outrun medium missiles (again)

[Pattern]

Another factor is reduced dps due to Doppler when running away/getting out of range, greater acceleration (due to greater top speed) and yeah general GTFO factor. Before you could burn out of lock range whilst taking minimal damage, now, if your taking hits your best to warp as soon as possible which in turn forces a deceleration that often leads to *whelp*, and if you do make it out your spending less time on the field being useful. Massive piloting difference between flying a 4-5kms Crow or Ares today than the 6-7kms versions of before.

[Shiroi Okami]

Another factor is reduced dps due to Doppler when running away/getting out of range, greater acceleration (due to greater top speed) and yeah general GTFO factor. Before you could burn out of lock range whilst taking minimal damage, now, if your taking hits your best to warp as soon as possible which in turn forces a deceleration that often leads to *whelp*, and if you do make it out your spending less time on the field being useful. Massive piloting difference between flying a 4-5kms Crow or Ares today than the 6-7kms versions of before.

This comes back to pilot skill though, non-retards aren't going to go OH SHIT TAKING DAMAGE, BETTER CUT MY TRANSVERSAL TO 0 TO WARP OUT

[joe space]

question only is: what critical mass is ok to one-shot ceptors at full speeds? i'm sure we all can agree that <20 is too few.

no not agreeing at all. are you seriously trying to argue that there should be no ship that in 20 volleys can kill a well flown interceptor?
currently, some weapon systems can and some can't at different ranges. sure, range doesn't matter with the drake (your example) but drakes also do not apply their damage immediately. there is locking time, switching missile type, and missile travel time. an untackled interceptor still wont even get volleyed by 20 drakes unless he completely fails at ceptor flying or is being a hero. and if your argument is that no medium sized weapon system should even be able to force a ceptor out well then i don't even.

sig radius mechanics are p good as is. as it effects damage, i think sig radius is fine with the exception that mwd bloom on non-ceptors does seem a bit much. imho, nerf the bloom of mwds and you solve the dictors dieing in their own bubbles problem (is it really a problem though?) and you also encourage frigs to skirmish each other while larger ships are on grid as well as generally encouraging nano. it would be another buff to dramiels of course, but not a huge one and clearly solving the dramiel problem is a higher priority.

[Pattern]

HUH?

If you make it so 20 ships of any class can alpha ceptors, why would anyone fly anything else? Let alone go off into individual skirmishes - which now adays only happens in dramiels.

Problem is effectiveness, most would rather lose a few killmails and be more effective with more EHP/DPS than spend half the fight warping in and out because of lol squigyfrig syndrome.

[joe space]

HUH?

If you make it so 20 ships of any class can alpha ceptors, why would anyone fly anything else? Let alone go off into individual skirmishes - which now adays only happens in dramiels.

Problem is effectiveness, most would rather lose a few killmails and be more effective with more EHP/DPS than spend half the fight warping in and out because of lol squigyfrig syndrome.

i can't make sense of what you are responding to or what you mean

[Sponk]

he probably meant to write

If you make it so 20 ships of any class can't alpha ceptors, why would anyone fly anything else?

[Pattern]

I ment what I said. Even if ceptors where invulnerable to drakes, they'd still do shit dps and explode when minmatar recons look at them funny. There surviblity and performance ATM don't cut it and like dictors that's mostly down top speed and the abundance of predators.

Gangs now lack versatility. They certainly lack interceptors, Nano or arty canes +drake blobs with the occasional supercap seems to be my current running experience with 0.0 with the odd outbreak gang of machs, cynabals and rapiers every so often.

[RoemySchneider]

no not agreeing at all. are you seriously trying to argue that there should be no ship that in 20 volleys can kill a well flown interceptor? no. i said <20 drakes with lvl 4 pilots in them can alpha a super-speedy stiletto with a shield extender despite him being all-lvl-V and harboring imps.

but thinking about it... yes 20 volleys from one ship shouldnt kill it either unless that endeavor is augmented by painters, webs or some such shenanigans.
a player is a player; any 1v1 must not result in pure rape unless there is some serious lack of skills and/or specialization going on (like... when i read in intel that a vaga is coming down the pipe and i go 'n fit my scimitar accordingly).
alas, drakes have been spoiled and demand their ability to raep and no less "because it's a big ship and big ships should do that against smaller ones"
that paradigm is absolutely wrong in an MMO.
every player must be of similar 'value' on the battlefield, especially in a fleet fight. this can be based on their dps coverage (regarding range etc) - OR - their (intended) role.
ceptors 'relieve' the dps ships of their duty to fit points. logis and falcons multiply your forces so they don't need to sacrifice dps in favor of RR.

yesyes, every player is allowed to have an edge over the other by a few more skill(point)s or a wee bit more invested into their fitting.
but no 1v1 _rape_.
and if 20 drakes aren't even remotely fit towards killing small buggers nor bring a specialized ship whose role it is to screw inties over (like... gypsio putting 'small' assault launchers on a cerberus *shake fist*) then indeed, they should have a hard time doing so. one-shotting does not fit that description at all. locking time does not limit that in any shape or form nor do they need to change ammo either.

so... why is that?
two reasons:
1) the long range missile weaponry has the better 'tracking' : 93.75m explosion radius makes heavy missiles do full dmg to scimitars with a shield extender
2) let's have a look at the speed part of the missile formula:
dmg = EFTdmg * (sig/explo.rad * explo.spd/victim.spd) ^ [ln(DRF)/ln(5.5)]

now... if the DRF were 5.5, the whole exponent thingy would become ^1. we'd p.much have no DRF.
then speed, signature and all the missile stats would have proportional effects.
but alas, we do have the semi-misnomer "damage reduction factor" : all the values below 5.5 actually enhance the damage. the lower you get, the flatter the curve becomes aka the less you're bothered by speed. and signature.

anyways... an AB can make you twice as fast but thx to DRF the incoming dmg isnt reduced by half but only by about a third in the case of heavy missiles. this explains why drakes blobs still (largely) work against aHACs and ceptors still diaf - despite their awesome sig bloom bonus.
the only damage reduction one can do in the light of missile rain is going for the 'other' doppler effect and run away from the point of origin. this may work for scimitars who can do their thing from 70km behind the wall of friendlies, but ceptors might as well stay home.




sry pattern if i misunderstood. i think ceptor speed is ok in that getting from A to B at 5km/s sounds ok to me and that dessies/dictors as frig killers should maybe reach 4km/s.
if you were arguing for more speed 'strictly' in terms of tanking then ok, we're on the same page. but may i hereby suggest other approaches ^^

[joe space]

but it isn't one shotting, it's 20 shotting. you are talking about the effectiveness of one ship against 20. it isn't even 20 either. overheating mwd and running loki links makes it more like 50!

but anyway, it's clear this is now a rant about heavy missiles and not ceptors and definitely not dictors. i have no idea about big fleet fights that cause people to get butthurt about heavy missiles. they are well balanced in small gangs so i don't think they need fixing and would say to the blobs that the drake and hmls haven't changed in years, years most of you spent mostly dis'ing them - so deal with it.

[RoemySchneider]

well that's what happens when you analyze an issue; you look behind a floppy sentence such as "uhhh ceptors& dictors die all the time, they must be buffed" and suggest alternatives before we enter another round of the neverending buffing&breaking cycle.

sry if it's about heavy missiles / drakes yet again but that game design is flawed after all; the distinction between HMs and HAMs is simply lacking due to explosion radii and DRFs.

and the smaller&faster the ship gets, the more it suffers from it. well... the less it profits from these attributes anyways.
so yeah, this has very much to do with dics&dessies as well as frigs&co




but if it makes you feel any better: once this has been corrected, i'd love to take a look at the tracking formula, too: here, speed tanking only works at veryvery short ranges - with 10x range 'equaling' 10x tracking, it is limited to 1v1s. because you can only orbit one dude; the other one(s) just hovers around at his sweet spot and has little to no trouble unloading on you.
i do believe that we should at least consider some sort of hard cap for hit chances based on sig (somewhat ironically, we'd be borrowing that from the missile formula -.-) - but there's quite a few other approaches at our disposal, too.