PDA

View Full Version : MT Issue #2 - Pay AUR for increased training speed



two step
June 28 2011, 03:49:41 AM
Not sure if this would be special implants, or a boosted respec or whatever

Mike deVoid
June 28 2011, 04:16:16 AM
Unacceptable. In the general case, MT for advantage is *sometimes* acceptable when it just allows you to reduce or avoid boring grind, but this represents something that enhances your play BEYOND the grind.

Then again, I'm failrly sure that all of these things will be allowed on the market - and so players can grind isk get the same advantage. Still voting unacceptable for how, but will consider this more, along with other's viewpoints.

Don Pellegrino
June 28 2011, 04:18:07 AM
That's basically selling SP.

Totally unacceptable.
If you want SP that bad, there's already the character bazaar at the expense of having no control on the character's reputation, name, history, etc.

two step
June 28 2011, 04:19:46 AM
That somewhat matches my view Mike, I am uncomfortable with the idea, but tbh, this seems like a much smaller advantage than something like gold ammo. After all, once you are in a fight, it doesn't matter that you are training slightly faster.


That's basically selling SP.

Totally unacceptable.
If you want SP that bad, there's already the character bazaar at the expense of having no control on the character's reputation, name, history, etc.

Not sure I totally agree, since you still have to wait some amount of time. What if the maximum advantage was less than 5%?

Azmodeus Valar
June 28 2011, 04:21:08 AM
Any increase, even 5% is still unacceptable.

Obic
June 28 2011, 04:25:19 AM
Constant training speed for all players is one the "defining charactaristics" of eve. It is *the* thing that keeps the paying field of eve even. (buying characters outright still means someone paid for that character to train)

Don Pellegrino
June 28 2011, 04:29:02 AM
Constant training speed for all players is one the "defining charactaristics" of eve. It is *the* thing that keeps the paying field of eve even. (buying characters outright still means someone paid for that character to train)
Well said.

It's one of those things that are at the very basis of the game, like the economy being player driven and the highest skill level being 5.

Shin_getter
June 28 2011, 04:32:47 AM
Its not a question of acceptableness for me, but it is a bad idea by lowering the amount of time that a wealthy player may stay in the game, and thus lower actual CCP income. They could always buy a character with some marginal draw backs. Personalized characters should be given value by demanding time.

If not, characters become utterly bland items of skill points with no history that devalues the game.

EntroX
June 28 2011, 04:52:20 AM
under no circumstances.

Mike deVoid
June 28 2011, 04:57:35 AM
Counterpoints:

* RL $$ buys you PLEX which you selll for isk and which you can use to ensure you always have +5s in, no matter how often you get podded. This gives you a better training speed than poorer players who engage in the same activities as you.

Keep in mind that these special MT training-speed boosts will also be available from the market. It's just their origin is from the NeX via AURUM and not the LP store via some PvE grinding.

Reed Tiburon
June 28 2011, 05:08:03 AM
Fuck no. This isn't an F2P game. I pay a subscription for this shit. No non-vanity MTs.

Solanar
June 28 2011, 05:09:35 AM
Counterpoints:

* RL $$ buys you PLEX which you selll for isk and which you can use to ensure you always have +5s in, no matter how often you get podded. This gives you a better training speed than poorer players who engage in the same activities as you.

Keep in mind that these special MT training-speed boosts will also be available from the market. It's just their origin is from the NeX via AURUM and not the LP store via some PvE grinding.

In which case, there is already a way to do it, and no need to add another one to stack on top. Why spend time developing something that can already be done?

Mike deVoid
June 28 2011, 05:24:30 AM
Counterpoints:

* RL $$ buys you PLEX which you selll for isk and which you can use to ensure you always have +5s in, no matter how often you get podded. This gives you a better training speed than poorer players who engage in the same activities as you.

Keep in mind that these special MT training-speed boosts will also be available from the market. It's just their origin is from the NeX via AURUM and not the LP store via some PvE grinding.

In which case, there is already a way to do it, and no need to add another one to stack on top. Why spend time developing something that can already be done?

Not that I am IN FAVOUR, but say +6 and +7 implants became available but only through the NeX store. Hardly any dev time required at all.

Solanar
June 28 2011, 05:26:44 AM
In which case I fall back on the same thing I did for the plex for remaps. I am against it, but see the payout as so minimal, I hardly care.

But even for that, they need to be something that is destroyed if they get podded.

Mike deVoid
June 28 2011, 05:37:16 AM
Still need to hear a cojent argument between the [game-destroying] difference between

$$ > PLEX > ISK > +5s implants
and
$$ > PLEX > AURUM > +6s implants

especially since both will be destroyable upon podding and trade-able on the market (and hence available for anybody with the isk to pay for them).

Otherwise, I'm going to have to say that some implementations of AURUM for increased training time *are* acceptable, although many will not be.

Solanar
June 28 2011, 05:39:14 AM
Well, but if you can do +6 with AURUM this patch - what about +10 next patch? +50 in a year or two?

We have +5's in game already. There is no real reason to go further.

Zoidberg
June 28 2011, 05:45:57 AM
Still need to hear a cojent argument between the [game-destroying] difference between

$$ > PLEX > ISK > +5s implants
and
$$ > PLEX > AURUM > +6s implants

especially since both will be destroyable upon podding and trade-able on the market (and hence available for anybody with the isk to pay for them).

Otherwise, I'm going to have to say that some implementations of AURUM for increased training time *are* acceptable, although many will not be.
Why do you need an argument besides the fact that one requires some form of in-game work, and the other does not? +6 Aurum implants might not irreparably harm the actual gameplay of EVE, but they will irreparably harm the soul of the game. It seriously is enough for me to leave.

Aurum for skillpoints, in anyway, is not acceptable at all.

Tafkat
June 28 2011, 06:57:06 AM
Absolutely not.

Sponk
June 28 2011, 07:00:03 AM
Still need to hear a cojent argument between the [game-destroying] difference between

$$ > PLEX > ISK > +5s implants
and
$$ > PLEX > AURUM > +6s implants

Someone did :effort: and produced :game content: for those +5s.

Navigator Six
June 28 2011, 07:04:06 AM
That somewhat matches my view Mike, I am uncomfortable with the idea, but tbh, this seems like a much smaller advantage than something like gold ammo. After all, once you are in a fight, it doesn't matter that you are training slightly faster.

[quote="Don Pellegrino":51w0ho8g]That's basically selling SP.

Totally unacceptable.
If you want SP that bad, there's already the character bazaar at the expense of having no control on the character's reputation, name, history, etc.

Not sure I totally agree, since you still have to wait some amount of time. What if the maximum advantage was less than 5%?[/quote:51w0ho8g]
"This seems like a much smaller advantage" is a very slippery slope. Compare it to the small percentages you get from increasing a skill by one level: on their own they're not such a big deal, in aggregate it's absolutely essential to train them all up to succeed.

Don't go there.

Mike deVoid
June 28 2011, 08:41:56 AM
Still need to hear a cojent argument between the [game-destroying] difference between

$$ > PLEX > ISK > +5s implants
and
$$ > PLEX > AURUM > +6s implants

Someone did :effort: and produced :game content: for those +5s.

Yes, I think this is the key to arguing against things like this. I've been trying to think of a way to emphasis this key difference because I think that purely appealing to the 'sanctity-of-the-sandbox' alone is, I feel, a relatively weak argument.

It's important that :effort: is expended by players to create the isk, LP or minerals used by players to create or acquire ships, LP store items or NPC goods. Player effort is also expended to acquire rare deadspace and officer mods. AURUM for +6 implants bypasses the player effort and rewards those with RL $$ - pay2win. It would be ridiculous to suggest any implementation of AURUM for isk (spawned by CCP) or LP or minerals and so we must reject any instance where CCP spawn a game effecting item from nothing - just as we must also reject the more obvious pay2win suggestions (training speed boosters, etc).

Virtuozzo
June 28 2011, 09:34:26 AM
No, that is really too easy to turn into a slippery slope.

Now, if CCP had a useful, balanced and specialised game design angle, along the lines of what Hilmar once proposed in a devblog in 2003 or 2004 (accelerated training for specific purposes but at the risk of permadeath) then I could see options to take this route. Think of for example flying fighter bombers, stuff like that. But, considering what kind and volume of resources that would require .. I can't really see the feasibility.

The Djego
June 28 2011, 09:34:52 AM
Voted no on a general basis.

It might be acceptable if it would be like the booster from the box version to speed up alt builds or give new players a quicker start as a one time deal and just for new accounts with less than 2M SP or something. Just don't start the SP arms race, this will end very badly.

As for general, pay more, gain more, hell no.

Shaikar
June 28 2011, 09:46:57 AM
Hell no. It's a direct and tangible advantage in game over those who don't pay supertax.

Ysolde Xen
June 28 2011, 09:52:51 AM
Never. The temporary booster thing for newbies might be acceptable as long as it's included free of charge but no change in SP gain rate for Aur IMO.

TZeer
June 28 2011, 10:51:55 AM
Funny outcome...

Bunch of noobs with skills they dont know how to use, in expensive ships they dont know how to fly.

Most likely realistic outcome....

Buy SP and boost people in the alliance up to the FOTM style.
Get a bunch of supercarrier ready pilots in a very short time.

raiden55
June 28 2011, 12:40:12 PM
not acceptable.
i'm for plex for 2 training at same time, but this is pretty different ; it's allowing someone to be faster than someone else. i consider it cheating.
i'm okay with char bazaar cause someone did it and i can't really choose this nice baby with blue eyes and blonde hair. i'm jsut adopting one.
i'm okay for plex for 2nd training as it's still on the rules, and could be done with another account, but this NO.

eve is a game where you need time to get level, this is a fundamental rule and can't be changed.

Dodgy Past
June 28 2011, 03:57:48 PM
Guaranteed quitting time for a lot of people IMHO.

Zhula
June 28 2011, 05:28:23 PM
No.

Training time is good for noobs. They have time to grasp the mechanics.
Ofc E-bay option still exists, but those people die fast anyway.

and No

chadsexington
June 28 2011, 07:45:43 PM
100m says the +7 implants are going to be seeded in NeX.

Qwert
June 28 2011, 08:39:24 PM
Still need to hear a cojent argument between the [game-destroying] difference between

$$ > PLEX > ISK > +5s implants
and
$$ > PLEX > AURUM > +6s implants

especially since both will be destroyable upon podding and trade-able on the market (and hence available for anybody with the isk to pay for them).

Otherwise, I'm going to have to say that some implementations of AURUM for increased training time *are* acceptable, although many will not be.
Because there is a limited amount of +5's that can enter the game.

Hard limit of all 345k accounts farming level 5's 23/7 :roll:
Soft limit of the number of people grinding missions for level 5's * the amount of time they can play.

There is also a hard limit on the number of PLEX that sold for gain per month.

Hard limit of 345k per month :roll:
Soft limit of the number that can be sold before noobs can by 20 by shooting one rat in Perimiter due to :market forces:

Thus, if someone is really, really bad and gets podded every 5 minutes, there is no way for him to just get +5's every time he dies by buying plex. The PLEX market would crash, and the game would run out of +5's untill more bears jump on the gravy train. AUR?+7's means that the terribad richfag can buy as many as he wants, with no limit.

TLDR:

Someone did :effort: and produced :game content: for those +5s.

Jester
June 28 2011, 09:38:46 PM
Voted absolutely not, and yet, this one is the second easiest one to implement (and therefore, probably hugely tempting to CCP):

CCP could just take the existing gamebox booster, remove the damage buff, remove the time limitation, and sell those for AUR. Instant training speed increase via +3s to all attributes.

Easiest to implement: sell Quafe Zero for AUR.

Ryas Nia
June 28 2011, 10:22:04 PM
not acceptable period.

Dahak
June 29 2011, 07:10:36 AM
Bad. Game is supposed to be about reputation and such, making it easier to escape your past misdeeds with a new character bothers me. It's already too easy.

Solanar
June 29 2011, 02:49:26 PM
They could do it even more easily - AUR for skillpoints, apply them where you like.

DarkStar_WNY
June 29 2011, 03:21:15 PM
I would say no to this, except for being able to buy the abilty to move up a remap by 6 months, especially since the original plan for remaps was 6 months right up until the expansion was released, although I would say that if this was done that each toon could only do it once.

The only reason I mention it here is that in effect this would give someone the ability to speed up specific training.

Mashie Saldana
June 29 2011, 03:34:11 PM
I have always wanted to see "drug addiction" added to the game and this is one way to pull it off.

From day one we have had attribute boosters in the database but they were never seeded such as Percephrine V (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=10162) that used to be +10 perception for 8h with biology 5 (seems CCP has updated the database recently).

I say make them manufacturable in reaction towers like all other boosters, the input should be whatever PI material currently not used in any other products and "cybernetic nanite" that only can be bought with AUR.

The AUR cost per pill in material could be something like 40-80AUR. Giving us pills between 5-10m ISK each.

This would give a player 600SP/h boost but needs to be consumed every 8h and no way to queue multiple injections.

I have a feeling this would have some quite "interesting" effects with the players inclined to use the SP boost. ;)