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June 27 2011, 06:21:58 AM
I realized I had a few small points I wanted to send to CSM members as food for thought. I thought others might as well, so I made a thread so CSM members can read it in one convenient place.

1) Remember that an apology and a promise of no MT for game-affecting items is at best putting us back where we were 2 weeks ago, where we had such a promise. A bit worse than that actually, since there's a recent history of broken promises now. Another promise isn't really progress, so don't be impressed simply by a return of status quo from before, that didn't work clearly. Demand real progress on promises so that they must be publicly stated and publicly kept.

2) You guys are right on so far about where CCP has fucked up. I've read your blogs and I suggest no changes in your thoughts there.

3) CCP not consulting you guys on MT when it was in people's minds was a bad move. Find out why they didn't and ask for structural changes to avoid that. I have no answer for making them not ignore you, but it sucked to have you as surpised as everyone else.

Al Simmons
June 27 2011, 06:48:47 AM
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

Something to keep in mind.

Lana Torrin
June 27 2011, 06:52:15 AM
[youtube:388rjeut]RFZrzg62Zj0[/youtube:388rjeut]

Orimei
June 27 2011, 07:03:45 AM
[youtube:4gurbov2]4eYSpIz2FjU[/youtube:4gurbov2]

Zoidberg
June 27 2011, 07:07:03 AM
There should be an organized, and well constructed list of topics for the CSM to force CCP into discussing. The topics don't really end at non-vanity microtransactions at this point, though that's obviously at least 80% of the problem right now.

Liang
June 27 2011, 07:08:12 AM
Another thing to keep in mind: Even before CQ hit and shit everyone's game up, the gameplay was pretty shit with lolsupercaponline and shit game balance and WHAT THE FUCK corp UI and WHAT THE FUCK POS ui and ... oh my god. They want to equate this steaming pile of mother fucking shit with a god damn set of premium mother fucking pants on their mother fucking stupid retarded fucking heads? FUCK THEM.

Cerbus
June 27 2011, 07:09:31 AM
edit. :P

Lusulpher
June 27 2011, 07:09:50 AM
I'm only returning to EvE in 6-8 months if:

-Gallente are boosted to be comparable to other races.[countless players did analysis already]

-Minmatar/Amarr guns are looked at on external racial ships/mid-long ranges.

-STOP redesigning ships and not having instation HQ textures sets. Redo the Scorpion. Give Nagalfar it's missing turret.

-1/3 of the "low-hanging fruit" list must be delivered.

-Release all Trinity graphics upgrades to effects/nebulae/UI.

-Promise to cancel the subscription and MT models for WoD/Dust. One, or the other.[I prefer MT]

-Promote Lead of Team BFF and Gridlock to positions of power. Have them talk with CSM the most.

-Promise no game-changers in EvE.


Deliver my demands. They are most fair, and CCP seems to be out of content to :deliver:...[InCloset[TM] had no minigame...or hangar view option] Such are the "Realities of EvE". :obama:

You can remove tier system from ships later. If my demands are not met at a satisfactory pace, I will begin a campaign of 'education' about your terrible, bug-ridden, blackbox-of-theft until you return to the frigid Hel[fix that boat :x ] from which you spawned.
I am formidably patient and I wish to fly in your sandbox and pay your bills again.

P.S. Tanks is fun! Need good FCs desperately!

Yours Sincerely,
Compromised Customer Person

Lana Torrin
June 27 2011, 07:14:49 AM
You need to get the CCP management to watch this.

[youtube:uhp2sih6]68vv1sIyaMs[/youtube:uhp2sih6]

Zoidberg
June 27 2011, 07:16:30 AM
Another thing to keep in mind: Even before CQ hit and shit everyone's game up, the gameplay was pretty shit with lolsupercaponline and shit game balance and WHAT THE FUCK corp UI and WHAT THE FUCK POS ui and ... oh my god. They want to equate this steaming pile of mother fucking shit with a god damn set of premium mother fucking pants on their mother fucking stupid retarded fucking heads? FUCK THEM.
Right. The microtransactions are but one of many issues. We have CQs melting computers, pictures of doors, ridiculous prices for vanity MTs for [strike:1cx4rc6g]the idiots[/strike:1cx4rc6g] those who plan to use them, languishing features, horrible balance, and more empty Incarna "content" on the way instead of the real Incarna we were promised. These are all huge issues, that each deserve threadnaughts.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 07:20:07 AM
if you cant afford them then dont buy them. i'm not going to imagine that every single mt item will be in the price range of every unemployed college student. so long as it doesnt even give 1 stat point of anything, there is zero pressure to buy it.

more things for the csm to remember:

go to nonni's because it is really good, and get the bacon nonni's

also shout at ccp for giving you like a week's notice. you and all the other self/un-employed csm's that managed to make it haha.

Al Simmons
June 27 2011, 07:21:20 AM
You need to get the CCP management to watch this.

[youtube:1hpbbnoo]68vv1sIyaMs[/youtube:1hpbbnoo]

No, they should watch this:

[youtube:1hpbbnoo]gIafaUfkLSQ[/youtube:1hpbbnoo]

Actually, what am I saying, that will just give them ideas :psyduck:

Zoidberg
June 27 2011, 07:21:38 AM
if you cant afford them then dont buy them. i'm not going to imagine that every single mt item will be in the price range of every unemployed college student. so long as it doesnt even give 1 stat point of anything, there is zero pressure to buy it.
Oh, I personally don't care about the vanity MTs. I find them insulting in a sense, but I don't feel compelled to buy them. I think it's still worth bringing up briefly however.

Tellenta
June 27 2011, 07:29:21 AM
Another thing to keep in mind: Even before CQ hit and shit everyone's game up, the gameplay was pretty shit with lolsupercaponline and shit game balance and WHAT THE FUCK corp UI and WHAT THE FUCK POS ui and ... oh my god. They want to equate this steaming pile of mother fucking shit with a god damn set of premium mother fucking pants on their mother fucking stupid retarded fucking heads? FUCK THEM.
Right. The microtransactions are but one of many issues. We have CQs melting computers, pictures of doors, ridiculous prices for vanity MTs for [strike:2xc045wy]the idiots[/strike:2xc045wy] those who plan to use them, languishing features, horrible balance, and more empty Incarna "content" on the way instead of the real Incarna we were promised. These are all huge issues, that each deserve threadnaughts.

My biggest issue with eve is performance issues, I bought a new computer recently EVE should run better right? Wrong as fuck my laptop runs CQ better than my new computer on highest settings though my laptop has heat issues which is predictable tbh. Why is that? Turning off CQ doesn't save me from said heat and performance issues. MT isn't even a game changing addition currently and not even a factor to me and yet the expansion is nothing but a pile of shit pointing me to the emergency exit. What the fuck over and out.


CCP will need to fix a lot of things completely non-MT related before I come back. Though I am absolutely certain they are not up to the task.

Naomi
June 27 2011, 07:49:06 AM
I'd like to chime in for all the CSM people reading and say that what I need before I consider coming back to EVE is a very clear, very public document about where EVE is going with regards to MT.

If they want MT for vanity only, say so.
If they want MT for sp, say so.
If they want MT for BPC's, say so.
If they want MT for instant-ships, say so.

I think it's naive hope that CCP will back down from game-affecting MT, so perhaps it should be the focus of the CSM to make sure that none of what they are planning is hidden. I'm also thinking about how these are presented in game- I don't want bought advantages hiding in boosters, make it so that everyone reading a killmail will know that person bought an advantage.

Ultimately no game affecting MTs would be best, but I doubt it will happen. Bonus points for getting anything at all put in the EULA so we have more than just CCPs worthless promises.

E: this is what I need, but I think it encapsulates at least part of what most players are after too.

Shin_getter
June 27 2011, 08:24:03 AM
My 0.01



CCP have heavily misjudged its game. Did it really think that Eve sold on the basis of mass consuming PvPers? Perhaps metrics have shown this is indeed the case, but I seriously suspect it.

PvP in eve is a very niche thing as the vast majority of players in eve are highsec carebears that survives on production. It is not even risk aversion, as one would expect massive sisi fights if people were only stopped by their fear of isk loss. The more likely explanation is that PvP combat do not appeal to all that many, with the rock, scissor, blob gameplay it is. In any case they just don't pvp even when they could sell plex or whatever and no MT shop is going to make it happen.

Now, it is absolutely certain that no one really plays the game to PvE and shoot veld or red crosses, so that can't be it.

So what are we left with? I'd say the vast majority of players are here to play for the stories, and a few enterprising ones are here to make epic stories of their own. While most players are not efameous community leaders that is the focal point of drama, there is an sizable number of players that play the game like a hard version of builder's game, trying to build things ranging from a output, to massive jump bridge networks, a market in nullsec that rivals empire or extend the principle of NRDS and Amarr justice to a new region.

Its the sandbox, stupid

Players attracted by the sandbox want to write a story and make a change to the world as an act of self expression. There is so many things that CCP could sell if they offered the world itself. Sell the Sand damn it!

Sell unique things, not generics. Sell items that promote individuality, not universals. It is much better to sell a $70 right to upload a unique monocle just for you (hardcore players will figure it out) then a $70 generic one. It is better to auction limited, unique ships in finite numbers to collectors then change the baseline general purpose ship.

Now, I haven't thought out these ideas completely, but why can't you auction rights to move capitals to highsec (usual limits apply)? Why can't you sell permanent colored billboards that can be anchored and combined to form a vivid image in space? (allow them to be shot, and GM enforcements on lag inducing ops apply) Perhaps even the very topology of the game itself, the names of systems or the connection between gates or the services provided by NPCs can be sold.

Why, why can they only imagine their game being a niche variant of a flight sim combined with a terrible version of naval sim, in space, with avatar enable chat room being the future and just asking to spend massive amounts of money for generic boring items that do nothing. If there is something to sell to the hardcore space rich, it is a unique personal story unlike anyone else in the universe, and they are willing to pay plex and manhours to make it happen.

Instead, CCP want to kill that group and make it a generic pvp game where everyone does the same thing. That is just the worst vision possible.

Naomi
June 27 2011, 08:28:23 AM
My 0.01


[quote="Shin_getter":3ho9p1vj]Why, why can they only imagine their game being a niche variant of a flight sim combined with a terrible version of naval sim, in space, with avatar enable chat room being the future and just asking to spend massive amounts of money for generic boring items that do nothing. If there is something to sell to the hardcore space rich, it is a unique personal story unlike anyone else in the universe, and they are willing to pay plex and manhours to make it happen.

Instead, CCP want to kill that group and make it a generic pvp game where everyone does the same thing. That is just the worst vision possible.[/quote:3ho9p1vj]

This. Way better than my MT demands post.

Sponk
June 27 2011, 08:35:12 AM
I suspect there's a sizeable contingent in CCP that regrets not charging real money for BPOs...

Marlona Sky
June 27 2011, 08:45:37 AM
CCP is going to try everything they can possibly think of to get them on board with MT for non-vanity items. I just hope they don't cave.

They again, I would laugh my ass off if they came back, new monicles on their avatar and CCP saying that the CSM said it was good to introduce MT for non-vanity stuff.

Kinda wish Mazz was going, I always enjoyed her version of the joke that these meetings are.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 08:51:41 AM
CCP is going to try everything they can possibly think of to get them on board with MT for non-vanity items. I just hope they don't cave.

They again, I would laugh my ass off if they came back, new monicles on their avatar and CCP saying that the CSM said it was good to introduce MT for non-vanity stuff.

Kinda wish Mazz was going, I always enjoyed her version of the joke that these meetings are.
i dont really have the time/patience for csm stuff, that's why i didn't run. i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

Marlona Sky
June 27 2011, 08:59:01 AM
i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM reminds me of a friend who is always asking for your advice and NEVER listens to it. After a while you stop giving advice because its pointless.

Grats on your job. Remember, internet memes don't work on your boss. :P

Madner Kami
June 27 2011, 09:05:08 AM
Make sure you lads and ladies have spoons at hand, when needed. Also, please spoon Hilmar for me (each CSM-member once), please. kthxbai

Lana Torrin
June 27 2011, 09:06:42 AM
CCP is going to try everything they can possibly think of to get them on board with MT for non-vanity items. I just hope they don't cave.

They again, I would laugh my ass off if they came back, new monicles on their avatar and CCP saying that the CSM said it was good to introduce MT for non-vanity stuff.

Kinda wish Mazz was going, I always enjoyed her version of the joke that these meetings are.
i dont really have the time/patience for csm stuff, that's why i didn't run. i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

You know I would have voted for you.. Despite the way you still treat me...

Tellenta
June 27 2011, 09:15:54 AM
[quote="Marlona Sky":hhxj5867]CCP is going to try everything they can possibly think of to get them on board with MT for non-vanity items. I just hope they don't cave.

They again, I would laugh my ass off if they came back, new monicles on their avatar and CCP saying that the CSM said it was good to introduce MT for non-vanity stuff.

Kinda wish Mazz was going, I always enjoyed her version of the joke that these meetings are.
i dont really have the time/patience for csm stuff, that's why i didn't run. i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

You know I would have voted for you.. Despite the way you still treat me...[/quote:hhxj5867]

Hell I would vote for her as long as she kept posting dinosaur eve doodles. She could be a no show for all CSM events and I still wouldn't care, CSM is a joke and CCP agrees or else we wouldn't be in this situation.

Haffrage
June 27 2011, 09:16:21 AM
mazz for csm

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 09:19:55 AM
i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM reminds me of a friend who is always asking for your advice and NEVER listens to it. After a while you stop giving advice because its pointless.

Grats on your job. Remember, internet memes don't work on your boss. :P

well after being on the csm 3 and 5, the impression i got was basically being taken completely seriously on the stuff that we said, but after the meeting it gets completely buried because ccp are so awash with ideas and stuff that its basically your voice competing with 9999999999 employee's voices, and they have a leg up on the communication. the communication issue is being worked on and the CSM gets more constant communication, but they still aren't operating on the same level as employees- and they probably never will, because they are not able to consider the business and technial realities that CCP also needs to face(partly because of a lack of professional background with it, partly because CCP will not share those sorts of information)

there is also the fact that, a year ago, i completely believe that ccp was telling the truth when they said that there were no plans for microtransactions. there are some things that ccp does do that companies typically don't, based on just stuff i know from watching them over the years, and one of those things is that they don't lie outright. that is to say, i've never really caught them in a lie- when they weren't able to talk about something they usually said they just couldn't talk about it rather than blow sunshine up our asses saying what we wanted to hear. i completely believe there were no plans to do mt's. ccp typically doesn't plan things like this until right before it happens anyways. thats also why all the plans that the csm hears about dont usually materialize on patch day. not because they were making up a whole fake story, but because the reality on that day was completely different from the reality a few weeks later.

and thanks too. you might be surprised about the memes thing, i found the job on reddit. the csm was a fun thing to do when i was unemployed and had nothing better to do, but aside from the experience that is iceland(which is awesome btw), and just taking vacations for my own amusement, i don't really regard it as a very productive activity. even if the csm made a huge difference(and it does) it just doesn't seem like something important enough to get passionate about outside of my own gain. it's basically free labor for a profit company anyways.

fake edit: haha thanks for the votes of confidence. maybe next year if i am an unemployed sad panda i will run for csm and drown my sorrows in a week long iceland bender that will end up in the international news for human rights violations

Tellenta
June 27 2011, 09:27:37 AM
fake edit: haha thanks for the votes of confidence. maybe next year if i am an unemployed sad panda i will run for csm and drown my sorrows in a week long iceland bender that will end up in the international news for human rights violations

You know how to keep me entertained, as long as there is an entertaining post about it I do not care. Granted I'm about to ditch eve until they learn how to code.... So you might not have my vote.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 09:32:17 AM
fake edit: haha thanks for the votes of confidence. maybe next year if i am an unemployed sad panda i will run for csm and drown my sorrows in a week long iceland bender that will end up in the international news for human rights violations

You know how to keep me entertained, as long as there is an entertaining post about it I do not care. Granted I'm about to ditch eve until they learn how to code.... So you might not have my vote.

is this a request to never stop posting? i feel like i have to honor this.

Maximillian
June 27 2011, 09:33:24 AM
Never stop SHIT posting or you'll confuse us plebs.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 09:34:17 AM
Never stop SHIT posting or you'll confuse us plebs.
butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts

fun trivia, i have three forum warnings, all issued in the first 5 days of this forum's existance. i will probably have four pretty soon. we should start a betting pool

Redclaws
June 27 2011, 09:45:09 AM
I'd like my shipspinning station back please CSM. Getting tired of staring at this background .JPG

Zoidberg
June 27 2011, 09:46:47 AM
I'd like my shipspinning station back please CSM. Getting tired of staring at this background .JPG
Why would you not enjoy Door?

Smuggo
June 27 2011, 09:47:59 AM
The terrible performance of CQ considering the many years of development that's gone into Incarna definitely needs to be brought up as CCP doesn't even seem to have acknowledged that so far. They seem to think it's just dandy and those of us who don't want our computers to die will somehow be happy with the door.jpg

Lana Torrin
June 27 2011, 09:48:21 AM
Never stop SHIT posting or you'll confuse us plebs.
butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts butts

fun trivia, i have three forum warnings, all issued in the first 5 days of this forum's existance. i will probably have four pretty soon. we should start a betting pool

I'm actually finding it harder to get warnings now... Pony videos is about the only reliable way to do it..

thebomby
June 27 2011, 09:49:31 AM
Another thing to keep in mind: Even before CQ hit and shit everyone's game up, the gameplay was pretty shit with lolsupercaponline and shit game balance and WHAT THE FUCK corp UI and WHAT THE FUCK POS ui and ... oh my god. They want to equate this steaming pile of mother fucking shit with a god damn set of premium mother fucking pants on their mother fucking stupid retarded fucking heads? FUCK THEM.
Liang, you are still my favourite internet spaceship spokesperson who says almost everything I want to say, except you say it so much better.

:companioncube:

Actually, to be really honest, seeing you this mad after sucking up CCP's shit all these years actually makes me a bit sad. I can almost (imagine I) feel your disappointment from here, man.

Lana Torrin
June 27 2011, 09:52:08 AM
Another thing to keep in mind: Even before CQ hit and shit everyone's game up, the gameplay was pretty shit with lolsupercaponline and shit game balance and WHAT THE FUCK corp UI and WHAT THE FUCK POS ui and ... oh my god. They want to equate this steaming pile of mother fucking shit with a god damn set of premium mother fucking pants on their mother fucking stupid retarded fucking heads? FUCK THEM.
Liang, you are still my favourite internet spaceship spokesperson who says almost everything I want to say, except you say it so much better.

:companioncube:

Actually, to be really honest, seeing you this mad after sucking up CCP's shit all these years actually makes me a bit sad. I can almost (imagine I) feel your disappointment from here, man.

soul mate 4 life?

raiden55
June 27 2011, 10:17:00 AM
make sure to have answer for MT.
why they didn't saied what we wanted them to say, what do they really plans, and that they say it.

make clear that if they choose non vanity, what happen curently will only be the beginning, and will be followed by a big tsunami.
and if they have issues on what to call vanity, just make them say something that don't affect gameplay...

try to make them sign something ; they want you to keep a NDA, fine, but if you have to sign a contract, make them sign one saying they won't do MT affecting gameplay.
they can lie all they want, nothing will happen, but if they made a written contract... it's something else.

make sure to tell them if they need ideas for vanity items, we'll give them a lot.
way better ideas that things that will ruin the game.

and that MT items must be included on the production chain if for flying in space (think BPC for aurum -> produce it)

make sure to ask a way to make incarna optionnal long term, and with something better than a door.

why you're at it, ask for others issues of the internal newsletter ; there's no way you can leak these on their offices. and you have NDA. so there's no risk it become public. but it can allow you to understand if these things are really always like the one we saw.

ask hillmar to make public apologies. it's too easy to ask others people to do it, while they didn't took the decisions at all.

ps : and guys, i do agree that you seem to far from us. it's nice to communicate more with them, and to blog and so, but don't forget these must be visible for anyone.
make a post it on the o-forums with all the links to follow what you say, and news on when was your last article. lots of guys are saying you seems inexistant cause you never post on o-forum. it's always others people saying you did say something outside, that's not normal.

Orimei
June 27 2011, 10:26:40 AM
tell them we want sparkling ponies to ride around our captains closet now!

and i personally demand a pink beanie with a star on it so my ingame pic can look like my failheap avatar!!

Halb
June 27 2011, 10:32:29 AM
There were a couple of things that got to me enough last week for me to cancel my accounts after 6 years.

Lack of respect for the players. - Used to be €€P were one of the few games companies that listened to and spoke to it's players, there was once a sense of community in EVE which has been slowly dieing last couple for years. 'Greed is Good' has just repeatedly kicked it in the head to make sure.

Lack of investment in EVE - It seems obvious now that the business plan for eve is to do the bare minimum to keep it running, and put all other money into Dust/EmoVampires. Don't know about the rest of you but i pay €€p so i can play EVE not Dust/EmoVampires. I want to see my money spent on fixing EVE's problems and developing new content for EVE (and that doesn't' mean a WoD beta with a poncey boutique attached). If €€P have some spare cash left over at the end of the month after they have delivered there core fuckin business which is EVE, then great develop new projects, but you can't expect to get away with neglecting that core business for long and keep your customers.

I know sandbox breaking MT's are quite rightly the main focus for the CSM, but the above are part of the overall problem and MT's can't be discussed in isolation.

Caius Sivaris
June 27 2011, 10:50:39 AM
I'm actually finding it harder to get warnings now... Pony videos is about the only reliable way to do it..

Try posting dying anorexics in the fat girls thread. Worked for me.

Jack Dant
June 27 2011, 11:40:44 AM
try to make them sign something ; they want you to keep a NDA, fine, but if you have to sign a contract, make them sign one saying they won't do MT affecting gameplay.
they can lie all they want, nothing will happen, but if they made a written contract... it's something else.

Came to post something like this. Whatever concessions CCP makes at this meeting, we need them in writing, and by Hilmar himself. I don't trust Hilmar one bit, not after his mail. But at least if he writes something down, he doesn't have an easy excuse to change his mind. No "I was overruled", no "I wasn't aware of any plans".

Sparkus Volundar
June 27 2011, 12:06:33 PM
The door looks crap but to be fair, CCP don't want us looking at it long-term so I don't want them wasting time on making it better.

What I'd like is to have ASAP is the fitting window set to be open by default when we dock or login at a station. In what should be one simple step, this achieves:

1) It reminds what ship I'm in before I undock in the wrong one.
2) It has the little buttons for the cargo and drone bays.
3) You can check out your funky new rotating AC barrels.
4) It lets you ship-spin.
5) It lets you ship-spin.

Sparks

zergl
June 27 2011, 12:19:10 PM
Quoting myself from the devblog thread:

Can we have the CSM members demand that nothing of this meeting will be censored by the NDA-shield? Full disclosure and all?

There should be no restrictions on the information passed on to the playerbase.

In addition:
Have them clarify why in gods name the newsletter which is supposedly "designed and developed specifically to catalyze discussions on controversial topics" does not read like a piece to act as fuel for thought and discussion but as a propaganda pamphlet for MT instead.
It asks the question "Greed is Good?", but it also answers it itself with a resounding "YES!". The only even remotely critical voice is the part where Diagoras concludes with "Yes, but only Vanity stuff" as opposed to a categorical "No." which should imo be expected in a juxtaposition of the extreme ends of the spectrum.
Also, if the newsletter is really not indicative of future plans, why in gods name does the part about EVE contain phrases such as "some will be new items, ammunition, ships, etc." instead of "some could be", etc. especially from a person who is, according to his introduction blurb, "Director of Content Design".

two step
June 27 2011, 12:30:31 PM
:companioncube: to the OP (and all the people who replied) for this thread. I was actually going to post this exact thread this morning, though I was going to title it "What are your demands". I like the idea of getting Hilmar/CCP to commit to some sort of written document. We have been talking about how much wider than just the MT issues we would like to go during the meetings as well, so it is good to hear feedback from folks on that stuff.

Also, for the people wishing a mazz could be there, we do have Darius III, who sadly is a pale shadow of Mazz's trolling (I actually like mazz's trolling, and she was even surprisingly serious on the CSM forums, I often agreed more with what she said than I would have thought). Right now, the current total of attendees is 8, including me and Darius III.

Veshta Yoshida
June 27 2011, 12:33:37 PM
@CSM:
- Force them to commit X number of people permanently to a balance team that can work alongside the low-hanging fruit pickers. Smallish tweaks to individual ships every 18 months is no where near enough.
- Spinning. Got to have the hangar back, access to CQ should be a bloody button after exiting ship not the way they did it .. was ignored for what 2 months on SiSi though, so will be a hard thing to get across.
- Lot more info needed on the 2-3 upcoming Incarna patches. If all they are planning is more crap for AUR then even I will probably take a break (read: go East!).
- Enjoy the :awesome: that is a volcanic island in full bloom .. raw nature at its finest.

It was my understanding that the CSM were briefed on the whole MT thing just as CCP states, where the disconnect happens is that the pricing scheme has not been shared beforehand .. goes without saying that vanity crap is expensive, wouldn't be much point to it if not.
Or was all the hubbub that led to them declare "vanity only' solely in my imagination?

Gentle Glide
June 27 2011, 12:35:20 PM
CSM should be pissed, represent your oppressed constituents, also enjoy the fact that our devs are so fucking awful we have to send a squad of players to police them cause that is just :psyduck: itself

1. bring back ship spinning, seriously captains quarters is fucking gay nobody cares.
2. give us a straight answer on the intentions of your MT system (cause i want to know if i should ragequit now or later.
3. slap hilmar in the face and tell that retard we like eve the way it is we dont need a patch every 6 months with new content
4. balance supercarriers and fix dreads (or was this entire thing a clever smokescreen to get us to stfu about that)

dzajic
June 27 2011, 12:48:30 PM
3. slap Hilmar in the face and tell that retard we like eve the way it is we dont need a patch every 6 months with new content

Absolutely agree. That was already raged about. :18months:, "Our surveys show that new content sells better than polishing and fixing old content" and all of that.

raiden55
June 27 2011, 12:50:00 PM
they didn't deleted my ponies door, ponies got only deleted if pure spam.

Raivi
June 27 2011, 12:50:28 PM
-Promote Lead of Team BFF and Gridlock to positions of power. Have them talk with CSM the most.

Yours Sincerely,
Compromised Customer Person

You know the lead of team BFF is Soundwave right? :)

Rakshasa The Cat
June 27 2011, 12:54:32 PM
Don't let the lead of Team BFF touch anything relating to PLEX...

Also the whole Quafe ZERO thing was too suspicious to not be mentioned.

DarkStar_WNY
June 27 2011, 12:59:02 PM
I realized I had a few small points I wanted to send to CSM members as food for thought. I thought others might as well, so I made a thread so CSM members can read it in one convenient place.

1) Remember that an apology and a promise of no MT for game-affecting items is at best putting us back where we were 2 weeks ago, where we had such a promise. A bit worse than that actually, since there's a recent history of broken promises now. Another promise isn't really progress, so don't be impressed simply by a return of status quo from before, that didn't work clearly. Demand real progress on promises so that they must be publicly stated and publicly kept.

2) You guys are right on so far about where CCP has fucked up. I've read your blogs and I suggest no changes in your thoughts there.

3) CCP not consulting you guys on MT when it was in people's minds was a bad move. Find out why they didn't and ask for structural changes to avoid that. I have no answer for making them not ignore you, but it sucked to have you as surpised as everyone else.

I've got to ask, who exactly do they owe an apology to and why? Did they introduce any MT items that effected gameplay? No, they did not. Have they been discussing possibly doing it? Yes, but running a business involves exploring all avenues open to you and then deciding which course to take, and then constantly re-evaluating what you are doing.

Yes at some point in the past CCP management had said no MT for gameplay effecting items, and while I support not doing so I have no problem with vanity MT since it's meaningless if you don't want to play barbies in space. Could CCP change their mind? Sure they could, just as I am free to cancel my account at anytime and neither of us would owe the other an appology for doing so.

In the past CCP said they wouldn't change the AOE doomsday and then a couple years later they did. Then they said that nanos didn't cause a problem, and then a year later they changed them. The Sov system has been changed several times, as have plexes, CA's, various areas of PvE and PvP. Does CCP owe every appologies for those changes as well?

CCP, and even Eve's survival requires constant change, some changes will be more popular then others, but just because a percentage of the player get all bent out of shape over a potential future issue doen't mean CCP owes anyone an apology

Al Simmons
June 27 2011, 01:02:18 PM
i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM reminds me of a friend who is always asking for your advice and NEVER listens to it. After a while you stop giving advice because its pointless.

Grats on your job. Remember, internet memes don't work on your boss. :P

well after being on the csm 3 and 5, the impression i got was basically being taken completely seriously on the stuff that we said, but after the meeting it gets completely buried because ccp are so awash with ideas and stuff that its basically your voice competing with 9999999999 employee's voices, and they have a leg up on the communication. the communication issue is being worked on and the CSM gets more constant communication, but they still aren't operating on the same level as employees- and they probably never will, because they are not able to consider the business and technial realities that CCP also needs to face(partly because of a lack of professional background with it, partly because CCP will not share those sorts of information)

there is also the fact that, a year ago, i completely believe that ccp was telling the truth when they said that there were no plans for microtransactions. there are some things that ccp does do that companies typically don't, based on just stuff i know from watching them over the years, and one of those things is that they don't lie outright. that is to say, i've never really caught them in a lie- when they weren't able to talk about something they usually said they just couldn't talk about it rather than blow sunshine up our asses saying what we wanted to hear. i completely believe there were no plans to do mt's. ccp typically doesn't plan things like this until right before it happens anyways. thats also why all the plans that the csm hears about dont usually materialize on patch day. not because they were making up a whole fake story, but because the reality on that day was completely different from the reality a few weeks later.

Mazz, ily but you really make some stupid noises out of your mouth sometimes. The CSM aren't able to consider the business and technical realities because they don't have that professional background? What are you on? Most of these guys are really professional people who clearly have a better grasp on those things than CCP.

As to believing in CCP telling the truth a year ago, I dunno. I know CCP like to play the 'make it up as we go along' card, 'we're so indie'. But this has to have been planned for a while. And certainly it's been in Hilmar's mind for a while, ever since he realised he could wring some extra money out of Eve while Dust and WoD get developed.

The reason that plans that we or the CSM hear about don't materialise on patch day is because they over-promise and under-deliver every time, not because of some other altruistic reason.

kyrieee
June 27 2011, 01:08:07 PM
The thing about ship spinning is that you could double click your ship to open its cargo. It's sounds pretty minor but it's actually annoying to have to open the ship menu first just to access your cargo.

About the actual summit though I suspect it's just going to be about MT and not general :raeg: like the other meetings. What I want is word from Hilmar that there won't be non-vanity MT, but I don't expect to. Also I don't think the last devblog cut it as an apology, I think CCP should apologize for being two faced bastards and thinking about EVE as something to be milked for cash.


:facepalm:

This is feels kinda pointless. Even if they fully back down on MT I don't think they'll do it for honest reasons. For me to believe that they're actually changing their attitudes and not just telling us what we want to hear they would have to be so sorry they'd look pathetic. There's no way the outrage was big enough to force a corporate 180.

Aypse
June 27 2011, 02:00:38 PM
Quoting myself from the devblog thread:

Can we have the CSM members demand that nothing of this meeting will be censored by the NDA-shield? Full disclosure and all?


Terribly important if they want to appease the players. Even if the CSM comes back with all smiles saying everything is going to be just fine, if they can't speak in specifics then it isn't going to help CCPs cause at all.

Specific answers delivered to the CSM and then delivered to the players. No broad, general bullshit.
,

Aypse
June 27 2011, 02:04:55 PM
Lack of respect for the players. - Used to be €€P were one of the few games companies that listened to and spoke to it's players, there was once a sense of community in EVE which has been slowly dieing last couple for years. 'Greed is Good' has just repeatedly kicked it in the head to make sure.

Lack of investment in EVE - It seems obvious now that the business plan for eve is to do the bare minimum to keep it running, and put all other money into Dust/EmoVampires. Don't know about the rest of you but i pay €€p so i can play EVE not Dust/EmoVampires. I want to see my money spent on fixing EVE's problems and developing new content for EVE (and that doesn't' mean a WoD beta with a poncey boutique attached). If €€P have some spare cash left over at the end of the month after they have delivered there core fuckin business which is EVE, then great develop new projects, but you can't expect to get away with neglecting that core business for long and keep your customers.


Good post, and #2 is something that the the CSM really needs to address with CCP. These are basically the reasons I stopped playing 2 years ago. It became plainly obvious that CCP was shifting focus away from Eve as expansions became less developed, with less content, and less polish.

firefoxx80
June 27 2011, 02:12:19 PM
A small QC tweak request.

When you dock, change CQ so that you start on the gantry looking at your ship/pod, with the CQ behind you.

+ more immersive, you're standing next to your pod
+ gives you quick access to ship fittings/cargo/undock
+ ship spinning!

- possibly means that people 'miss' CQ
- makes other functions (market, agents, etc. 'deeper' in CQ)

Oh, and the loading progress bar should totally read "Cleaning off the goo".

Lady Spank
June 27 2011, 02:27:48 PM
i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

No, you would be taking time off to assist in 'Icelandic' economic assistance, just one of your many pass-times.

dzajic
June 27 2011, 02:33:06 PM
A small QC tweak request.

When you dock, change CQ so that you start on the gantry looking at your ship/pod, with the CQ behind you.

+ more immersive, you're standing next to your pod
+ gives you quick access to ship fittings/cargo/undock
+ ship spinning!

- possibly means that people 'miss' CQ
- makes other functions (market, agents, etc. 'deeper' in CQ)

Oh, and the loading progress bar should totally read "Cleaning off the goo".


^^^^^
This

Serrated
June 27 2011, 02:53:23 PM
Right now, the current total of attendees is 8, including me and Darius III.

Just wanna say thanks to everyone who is going to iceland for this, dropping all your irl shit to present our case is awesome.

Orimei
June 27 2011, 02:54:28 PM
1. bring back ship spinning, seriously captains quarters is fucking gay nobody cares.
2. give us a straight answer on the intentions of your MT system (cause i want to know if i should ragequit now or later.
3. slap hilmar in the face and tell that retard we like eve the way it is we dont need a patch every 6 months with new content
4. permanent game balance team
fixed point 4

alternatively, if all goes to shit I'm gonna stick with this:

tell them we want sparkling ponies to ride around our captains closet now!

and i personally demand a pink beanie with a star on it so my ingame pic can look like my failheap avatar!!

Rodj Blake
June 27 2011, 03:06:13 PM
No MTs for anything that's not entirely 100% a vanity item.

Under any circumstances.

Ever.

filingo
June 27 2011, 03:17:31 PM
hire employees hotter than ccp sunset, that snaggly toothed skunt.

oh and free helicity and everyone else. helicity's a snaggly toothed skunt (in game) as well.

Smuggo
June 27 2011, 03:18:13 PM
No MTs for anything that's not entirely 100% a vanity item.

Under any circumstances.

Ever.

Just no MTs at all would be better. Scrap NeX or make it into a regular LP/isk store until they have the facilities in-game for players to manufacture these items, as it always should have been.

dzajic
June 27 2011, 03:27:24 PM
No MTs for anything that's not entirely 100% a vanity item.

Under any circumstances.

Ever.

Just no MTs at all would be better. Scrap NeX or make it into a regular LP/isk store until they have the facilities in-game for players to manufacture these items, as it always should have been.


While it is unlikely to ever happen now, CSM should at least try and remind CCP of what were their plans and promises for Incarna with which they managed to push trough the :18months:

Raimo
June 27 2011, 03:43:49 PM
Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

Also, very low cost ship recolouring

DarkStar_WNY
June 27 2011, 03:45:37 PM
No MTs for anything that's not entirely 100% a vanity item.

Under any circumstances.

Ever.

Just no MTs at all would be better. Scrap NeX or make it into a regular LP/isk store until they have the facilities in-game for players to manufacture these items, as it always should have been.

Actually I think they vanity items should be able to be purchased through the store directly with isk.

The reasoning is simple, CCP and it's economist have been saying there is to much isk in the game and that they need to add more isk sinks. Well IMO vanity items would make a great isk sink, sure everyone posting claims to be against these items but many rage against the price, which you would only do if you wanted to buy one yourself.

I could care less about barbies in space, and thus will never buy any of those items, but what would interest me is the ability to link all my accounts and share email folders and even hangers between my characters. I am so tired of getting corp and alliance emails on 5 different characters that I could scream, and of course sharing the hangers would just be a total win for players with multiple accounts.

Along those same lines how about giving or selling us our own personal tabbed hanger (like the current corp hangers) so we can organize our items without having to stuff them all into cans of various sizes?

Alistair
June 27 2011, 03:54:25 PM
Spaceships, and fighting with them, and making those fights more fun and more balanced.

Space, how to fight over it, and how to develop it, and how to balance the two.

If it isn't these two things, it shouldn't be in EVE right now.

Perfect what got us here. Finish what you start.

Then and only then can you move on to new ideas and features.

Dierdra Vaal
June 27 2011, 03:57:33 PM
Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

So sec status and faction standings become meaningless? Yeah great idea :facepalm:

Virtuozzo
June 27 2011, 04:01:10 PM
Whatever is going to happen, personally I think that there are two things the CSM should go inside with.

1. A clear cut plan to get on the table the information CCP used / uses in order to engage in plans, and to engage together with CCP in validating that information. I cannot stress enough how important it is to make sure that no decisions are made on the basis of opinions, wishes, wants, or even corporate / personal expectations. This is business, which depends directly on the highly volatile nature of people's personal experiences. You just cannot engage that on any basis of learning as you go without being absolutely positively convinced that the information you have is valid and constantly updated and revalidated.

[spoiler:22rtifrh]Yes, that is a tough one. There is not a lot of time. Perhaps CCP can prepare that in advance. They should, they too have an interest here, a sizeable interest even. Perhaps even critical. So doing the due diligence in preparation does make sense.[/spoiler:22rtifrh]


2. A clear cut sensible set of options to balance any set necessities / targets by CCP with those of customers. In other words, a set of reasonable step by step business plans. Sounds ludicrous yeah, but it should be clear now to people that the company is more than just CCP, it is a business. They have plans, targets, requirements. Whatever the balance or solution, will find its centerpoint in the money primarily. Yes, there will also be other variables, but those for the most part resort under the abovementioned item.

[spoiler:22rtifrh]That is not easy either. But it should be clear now, this is business. So in that regard thought and planning should be given to (general) options and possible steps, along with planning on timing / communication / validation / etcetera.

Personally I do think there is ample room for that. And I also think that it should not be so hard for CCP to engage on that without getting caught in this trap of "we cannot tie ourselves down so we can't give this or that commitment". It's a company that sells a service model, it should not be a surprise that such an action constitutes commercial suicide. But there are plenty options to compensate for that. A good plan, phased options, consistancy in validation and communication, and constant health and option checks of possible parts of the theoretical roadmap to step by step well ahead in advance figure out what is practical and what not.[/spoiler:22rtifrh]


On a sidenote, it is probably a good idea to first sit down and work out definitions, terms, concepts, so that all sides know exactly what is on the table without shades of grey or room for error or misunderstanding. It's probably also a good idea to ask CCP to be clear on what they want and/or need. As a company, as people. You have to "get" where someone comes from, if you want to deal with him. That obviously swings both ways, that speaks for itself.

Since this CSM at the start moved away from any sort of pressure management instruments, it will come down to just that. Unless ofcourse they catch up and channel customer & other attention in a constructive yet concerted manner. But I don't think there is time for that. It's a huge job, don't underestimate that. I also think that this is something that should be treated with enormous care. Whatever the state of things, or the game, we should not forget that there's about 600 people there. How would you feel if your job got wiped out - regardless of causes or considerations. If CCP persists and people don't like it, split ways. But I do not think it good to explode in excess along the lines of scorched earth stuff. Yes, there is a chance that CCP will do that on their own, by means of strategic decisions based on incorrect or incomplete information, but that is really only in their hands.

[spoiler:22rtifrh]At the same time, it should be clear by now that the personal angle that was initially engaged on by this CSM simply has no relevance or use whatsoever beyond getting people to sit at the same table. On the contrary, reading how a drunk statement may have resulted in the scorpion thin, well, it's a bit of a heads up, so to speak.[/spoiler:22rtifrh]

No, I'm not excusing them, or white knighting them. But there is more than just pixels. That goes for us as customers, ofcourse, but there's also people there. And sure, that does raise questions of responsability and whatnot, but that too is always both a personal and corporate matter.

Veshta Yoshida
June 27 2011, 04:03:57 PM
Just wanna say thanks to everyone who is going to iceland for this, dropping all your irl shit to present our case is awesome.
Wonder just what the hell they are telling those RL commitments:
"I shall have to take some personal days, I have an emergency to take care of"

"Nothing serious I hope, family member fallen ill?"

"No, its worse than that. Internet Spaceships are in jeopardy!"

Virtuozzo
June 27 2011, 04:11:15 PM
Just wanna say thanks to everyone who is going to iceland for this, dropping all your irl shit to present our case is awesome.
Wonder just what the hell they are telling those RL commitments:
"I shall have to take some personal days, I have an emergency to take care of"

"Nothing serious I hope, family member fallen ill?"

"No, its worse than that. Internet Spaceships are in jeopardy!"

Could picture some hilarity with that.

Husband > dear, I will be going away for a few days
Wife > where are you going to? why?
Husband > far away, to iceland, Eve wants me
Wife > rage

Dodgy Past
June 27 2011, 04:12:47 PM
No MTs for anything that's not entirely 100% a vanity item.

Under any circumstances.

Ever.

Raimo
June 27 2011, 04:13:08 PM
Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

So sec status and faction standings become meaningless? Yeah great idea :facepalm:

Well atm they are meaningful just in that they provide shitty PVP gameplay, especially sec status grinding so it wouldn't be much of a loss. Alternatively get rid of low sec sec status hits alltogether, sec status is a decent mechanic to balance suicide ganking but that's it IMHO.

Faction standings and grinding for better agents/anchoring rights I kind of "get" as it's traditional shit PVE progression but w/e.


But really, a game like EVE *not* having "bribe the officials" as a gameplay option really boggles the mind, it's so much in line with the spirit of things

Dodgy Past
June 27 2011, 04:13:57 PM
Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

Also, very low cost ship recolouring
You want to reward CCP for having mindless grinds by paying them cash to avoid them?

:facepalm:

Raimo
June 27 2011, 04:14:44 PM
Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

Also, very low cost ship recolouring
You want to reward CCP for having mindless grinds by paying them cash to avoid them?

:facepalm:

ISK->PLEX->AUR

Why are you people so thick (yeah it's a plex not used for game subscription and thus increasing plex sales over subscriptions yaddayadda I don't care)

Dodgy Past
June 27 2011, 04:16:14 PM
Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

Also, very low cost ship recolouring
You want to reward CCP for having mindless grinds by paying them cash to avoid them?

:facepalm:

ISK->PLEX->AUR

Why are you people so thick
PLEX gets used up so CCP got payed some money.

Who exactly is being thick?

:facepalm:

Raimo
June 27 2011, 04:17:20 PM
[quote=Raimo]Remember to support "good" intelligent MT: reducing shitty grinds. Sec status fix (concord bribe) for AUR, maybe faction standings too (or fix those stupid game mechanics, alternatively... But I bet the AUR fix would be much quicker :D )

Also, very low cost ship recolouring
You want to reward CCP for having mindless grinds by paying them cash to avoid them?

:facepalm:

ISK->PLEX->AUR

Why are you people so thick (yeah it's a plex not used for game subscription and thus increasing plex sales over subscriptions yaddayadda I don't care)
PLEX gets used up so CCP got payed some money.

Who exactly is being thick?

:facepalm:[/quote:kuvidgrm]

See my edit, why should I care as long as I don't need to pay that money? Them getting more money is not *always* a bad thing.

Dodgy Past
June 27 2011, 04:19:38 PM
See my edit, why should I care as long as I don't need to pay that money. Them getting more money is not *always* a bad thing.
What do you think the chances are of Logi's repping -5s going global being looked at when every time it happens there's a chance it puts money in CCPs pocket.

Everytime they play with the standings system they'll be tempted to balance it in their favour, either greater losses or smaller gains to encourage more players to MT.

Takon Orlani
June 27 2011, 04:20:07 PM
Yay for this thread. Take a copy of it into the meeting.

Smuggo
June 27 2011, 04:27:19 PM
Personally like the sec status system as it is. Yeah you have to grind up but if you just chain systems it can be done quickly enough, and it means there are some consequences to engaging in lowsec, differentiating it from 0.0.

raiden55
June 27 2011, 04:43:38 PM
You know the lead of team BFF is Soundwave right? :)
from what i read from different CSMs what he said on fearless was really not what he was thinking.
you never did that at school ? i did on high school, and i played the devil's advocate on the play. i was so good at it that it took me hours for make understand to my classmates that i was not at all thinking what i had told for the play...


The thing about ship spinning is that you could double click your ship to open its cargo.
i'm a 2007 player and i didn't knew xD
maybe CCP didn't known either ? xD

The Djego
June 27 2011, 04:44:14 PM
If they want to bring MT far beyond vanity crap, they should be at least honest instead of creating PR nightmares. They will lose players by this anyway, but they save herself a lot of bad press.
[/*:m:ur42bdwb]
Open discussion of changes with the community, before shit hit the fan. I can deal with a no, I just don't like CCP with coming with shit out of nowhere before they have a sanity check applied(no matter if they listen or not). CCPs communication policy is extreme unhealthy for her community, PR and health of her products.
[/*:m:ur42bdwb]
Some more effort to work at stuff the community wants(unfinished stuff, bugs, balance). They would archive a far more pleased community by this instead of chasing her newest shiny and fail cascading as always(space book, new forums, Incarna). This should also be a lot cheaper budget wise for good press if they have a expansion where they fine tune and fix stuff, call it Faction war 2.0, PVE Content 2.0, Gallente Rebirth etc. You could even sell it as PR stunt, selling CCP as a company that actually listens to her player base instead just fixing stuff.[/*:m:ur42bdwb]

Nobody serious would say CCP spending to much ISK on other stuff and not on EvE(72k man hours for forums don't sound this cheap) and investing into further products in a general and good business scheme. CCP should also keep in mind that PR nightmare like this are not only bad for EvE but also can damage the the potential success of further products. If you come with Dust on the market and the first community response to it is like "Hey they try to milk people just as hard as in EvE with the same shitty dev responses", you basically can kill even a good game by bad PR.

EvE is a niche game, it has not much competitors, Dust will have it not so easy and if CCP would be clever they should try to polish her image as a good developer and providing a good community support before they throw it on the market. Just think about Sony would publish a new game just a few months after ruining a older one by stupid decision against her own community.

Raivi
June 27 2011, 04:47:37 PM
You know the lead of team BFF is Soundwave right? :)
from what i read from different CSMs what he said on fearless was really not what he was thinking.
you never did that at school ? i did on high school, and i played the devil's advocate on the play. i was so good at it that it took me hours for make understand to my classmates that i was not at all thinking what i had told for the play...

Oh I know. I've never seen any other comments on microtransactions from Soundwave either way so I don't know what his views on the issue are (although I suspect the statements in fearless are simply an exaggerated version of his perspective).

But although I may disagree with his ideas on the microtransaction subject I think the work he's done and continues to do on actual spaceship mechanics is excellent.
I just thought it was funny how many people were simultaneously in love with BFF and their little things initiative while demonizing Soundwave. It's possible to hate his ideas on a specific subject without hating the man or his other work.

raiden55
June 27 2011, 04:54:42 PM
I just thought it was funny how many people were simultaneously in love with BFF and their little things initiative while demonizing Soundwave. It's possible to hate his ideas on a specific subject without hating the man or his other work.
it's because they don't know. and they don't want to know.
if they learned they may even deny it, or say after that BFF is shit...

hey check o-forums ; every time you answer a guy about why plex =/= any MT, another one open a topic with the same question.
when you rage you don't listen. either you rage against or for someone. it's like talking to a wall.
ccp fanboi are talking to a wall
anti MT rager are talking to a wall
playerbase is talking to a wall
csm is talking to a wall
ccp is talking to a wall... cause they didn't get the subject.
and talking to a wall always lead to the same thing : violence.

two step
June 27 2011, 05:02:30 PM
Blaming Soundwave is very stupid. He was asked to write what he wrote. He is *by far* the most engaged CCP designer with us on Skype (CCP Veritas talks more, but he is a developer). He still plays EVE. He listens to what we say when we object to design decisions, and even if he doesn't always agree (see jump bridge nerf), he is always willing to hear opposing points of view.

TBH, you guys should be photoshopping pics of him as Jebus or whatever instead of Turbo (who is still a great guy).

I've asked Virt/Entrox for a CSM subforum here, which hopefully should show up soonish, I would love to get some more feedback from you guys about what you want form CCP at the summit.

raiden55
June 27 2011, 05:05:51 PM
too step, i heard often that some lower rank ccpers are talking way more with you than others, is it nda to say who ?
and btw, what media do you use to communicate ? found trebor, seleene, meissa and mittens, but not you or the others :/

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 05:09:24 PM
[quote=mazzilliu]i finally got a real job and theres no chance in hell i'm going to tell my boss that i need to take time off for a video game.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM reminds me of a friend who is always asking for your advice and NEVER listens to it. After a while you stop giving advice because its pointless.

Grats on your job. Remember, internet memes don't work on your boss. :P

well after being on the csm 3 and 5, the impression i got was basically being taken completely seriously on the stuff that we said, but after the meeting it gets completely buried because ccp are so awash with ideas and stuff that its basically your voice competing with 9999999999 employee's voices, and they have a leg up on the communication. the communication issue is being worked on and the CSM gets more constant communication, but they still aren't operating on the same level as employees- and they probably never will, because they are not able to consider the business and technial realities that CCP also needs to face(partly because of a lack of professional background with it, partly because CCP will not share those sorts of information)

there is also the fact that, a year ago, i completely believe that ccp was telling the truth when they said that there were no plans for microtransactions. there are some things that ccp does do that companies typically don't, based on just stuff i know from watching them over the years, and one of those things is that they don't lie outright. that is to say, i've never really caught them in a lie- when they weren't able to talk about something they usually said they just couldn't talk about it rather than blow sunshine up our asses saying what we wanted to hear. i completely believe there were no plans to do mt's. ccp typically doesn't plan things like this until right before it happens anyways. thats also why all the plans that the csm hears about dont usually materialize on patch day. not because they were making up a whole fake story, but because the reality on that day was completely different from the reality a few weeks later.

Mazz, ily but you really make some stupid noises out of your mouth sometimes. The CSM aren't able to consider the business and technical realities because they don't have that professional background? What are you on? Most of these guys are really professional people who clearly have a better grasp on those things than CCP.

As to believing in CCP telling the truth a year ago, I dunno. I know CCP like to play the 'make it up as we go along' card, 'we're so indie'. But this has to have been planned for a while. And certainly it's been in Hilmar's mind for a while, ever since he realised he could wring some extra money out of Eve while Dust and WoD get developed.

The reason that plans that we or the CSM hear about don't materialise on patch day is because they over-promise and under-deliver every time, not because of some other altruistic reason.[/quote:28mhxs88]

pretty much by definition you cant guarantee you'll get a csm with a professional background in anything. there are NO background checks for the csm and i can bullshit having qualifications for just about anything. Did you know that i'm an economist? you should give me your corporate data. I'm also a lag-programmer. Let me talk about complicated stuff that will confuse and impress the average ignoramous. give me your code that i will fix in a weekend. I also am not secretly being paid by a rival game company because i am so difficult to bribe.

you would also be surprised what ccp can whip together in 10 days. ccp does not have the forward planning capability to plan for mt's a year ahead. and even if there were plans, ill bet that those plans contributed nothing to the current scheme.

also soundwave might have written controversial stuff in the letter but hes the guy who takes serious time out of his day to talk to the csm, and ive never gotten the impression that he doesn't listen.

Raimo
June 27 2011, 05:13:50 PM
Personally like the sec status system as it is. Yeah you have to grind up but if you just chain systems it still takes forever, and it means there is zero reason to engaging in lowsec, differentiating it from 0.0.

FYP

Smuggo
June 27 2011, 05:20:40 PM
Personally like the sec status system as it is. Yeah you have to grind up but if you just chain systems it still takes forever, and it means there is zero reason to engaging in lowsec, differentiating it from 0.0.

FYP

Depends how badly you want to go into highsec really. For me it doesn't really matter as my main rarely needs to go to highsec.

two step
June 27 2011, 05:27:24 PM
too step, i heard often that some lower rank ccpers are talking way more with you than others, is it nda to say who ?
and btw, what media do you use to communicate ? found trebor, seleene, meissa and mittens, but not you or the others :/

I wouldn't say that. We have a bunch of CCPers in Skype who aren't on much or don't talk much. Mostly on Skype we talk to Diagoras, Xhagen, Veritas, Soundwave and Zulu. We sometimes hear from Manifest as well. We get a bunch of other folks posting on the CSM forums as well, too many to name names.

I have a blog, but haven't updated since the election. I suppose it is possible I will update it, but I am far more likely to be posting here or on eve-o. http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/

Mavolio
June 27 2011, 05:27:54 PM
I had a quick look but i couldn't see it any where. Had the CSM said they are willing to go to Iceland as its not much notice and maybe they dont want to spend any more holiday time on a game?

ry ry
June 27 2011, 05:31:32 PM
I would fucking love to go collect my datacores or whatever, but since my eve time is limited these days id rather spend it shooting at people.

Essentially if I could buy sec I would, but it'd leave a nasty sicky taste in my mouth. :(

noobcake
June 27 2011, 05:45:51 PM
fake edit: haha thanks for the votes of confidence. maybe next year if i am an unemployed sad panda i will run for csm and drown my sorrows in a week long iceland bender that will end up in the international news for human rights violations


implying CSM will still be around in a year :nostradamus:

two step
June 27 2011, 06:38:21 PM
I had a quick look but i couldn't see it any where. Had the CSM said they are willing to go to Iceland as its not much notice and maybe they dont want to spend any more holiday time on a game?

I think the total number of CSMs going is still at 8. As far as I know, Mittens, Trebor, Meissa, Draco Lasa, White Tree are the mains that are going, and me, Elise Randolph and Darius III are the alts. Killer2 was going to go, but spending 36 hours travelling for 2 days of meetings seemed like a bad idea.

Caius Sivaris
June 27 2011, 06:47:03 PM
I would fucking love to go collect my datacores or whatever, but since my eve time is limited these days id rather spend it shooting at people.

Essentially if I could buy sec I would, but it'd leave a nasty sicky taste in my mouth. :(

You can go collect your highsec datacores being -10 travelling in a pod.....

spiralJunkie
June 27 2011, 06:49:24 PM
I realized I had a few small points I wanted to send to CSM members as food for thought. I thought others might as well, so I made a thread so CSM members can read it in one convenient place.

1) Remember that an apology and a promise of no MT for game-affecting items is at best putting us back where we were 2 weeks ago, where we had such a promise. A bit worse than that actually, since there's a recent history of broken promises now. Another promise isn't really progress, so don't be impressed simply by a return of status quo from before, that didn't work clearly. Demand real progress on promises so that they must be publicly stated and publicly kept.

2) You guys are right on so far about where CCP has fucked up. I've read your blogs and I suggest no changes in your thoughts there.

3) CCP not consulting you guys on MT when it was in people's minds was a bad move. Find out why they didn't and ask for structural changes to avoid that. I have no answer for making them not ignore you, but it sucked to have you as surpised as everyone else.

4) go to Nonni's

raiden55
June 27 2011, 06:57:28 PM
we talk to Diagoras, Xhagen, Veritas, Soundwave and Zulu.
zulu and sound ? so latestet dev blogs seemed pretty strange to you i suppose when compared to skype ?

btw i read the iceland article mittens have linked, and it's :psyduck:
dunno if this thing is trustworthorty, but wow

Lallante
June 27 2011, 07:03:57 PM
People dont seem to realise that "I would spend money on this if it was available" is very much not the same thing as "It is a good thing for this to be available".

I'm RL well off, ofc I'd throw a few hundred pounds a year into ensuring I was +10% awesome in game.

Doesn't mean I think it should be possible.

Qwert
June 27 2011, 07:08:36 PM
(From a comment on Massively)

Eve itself may not have died, but I'm beginning to believe that the dream has.
Ask them what happened to the dream.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 07:08:46 PM
People dont seem to realise that "I would spend money on this if it was available" is very much not the same thing as "It is a good thing for this to be available".

I'm RL well off, ofc I'd throw a few hundred pounds a year into ensuring I was +10% awesome in game.

Doesn't mean I think it should be possible.
you can buy plex to get a mothership or titan, or to fund making all your ships t2 fit and slave implants.

"pay to win" is already here and has been for years.

Obic
June 27 2011, 07:11:14 PM
This won't get read on the ClusterF*ck that is the eve-o forums so I'll post it here. (been lurking here for a looooong time, finally have somethign constructive enough to say)


Microtransactions can be (from a development POV) an easy way to fix broken game play. This can not be allowed to happen. If CCP (or a CSM) is asking themselves "is this a good fit for a MT?" firstly ask "can this be handled with an existing in game mechanic?" If the answer is yes, then it is no longer "Vanity" and should not be persued.

As an Example, many people feel that Faction standing is broken. It would be tempting for CCP to introduce a way to buy Faction Stating with Aurum. That would be a mistake. It wouldn't fix the mechanic, and would essentially make that in game mechanic worthless. (not to mention **** off those people who do not feel the mechanic is "broken". The same goes for ship balance and golden ammo.

CCP will try and use Microtranasactions to "fix" things that are broken if given the chance. Whether that be Incarna lacking depth, FW, sovereignty, balance, POS's, etc. Vanity items are ok if they are vanity (and they should be extraordinarily cool to justify it) but They shouldn't be used to "cheat out" valid gameplay.

raiden55
June 27 2011, 07:23:45 PM
was just wondering about something while trying to answer a ccp fanboy who had a brain.
i happened to remember what someone said some days ago :

if it was possible to buy BPO of current ships, for AUR, would it be an issue ?

you need to add a lot of limitations to something like that :
- item must be identical
- price on aurum must not be less than npc price on isk
- special bpo (like ORE who are limited to one region, and so have a interest even raw) must be excluded

but i don't see really an issue here, do you see one ? (with these limitations of course)

this system can also be applied to low level skills books ; stuck on nullsec and needing some skillsbook while there is nothing ? tempting...
bored of making 5 jumps to a noob station on high for some shitty skills which cost nothing ? tempting...
same here, must have limitation like being MORE expensive than npc isk price, and what is available, but this seems reasonable.

maybe you'll ask "but what is the interest for them ?"
aurum is a plex sink ; what it is used for have no importance. they only want aurum to be used cause it means direct money for them while not the isk.
for us it change nothing if limitations are here and item is the same.

there's a limitation to add however : aurum / plex conversion must be monirored closely, and changed sometimes if needed to avoid having too much of an impact on plex or others items price. but it can be done.

my question is a bit : "would you fear these MT only by being MT, or because you are scared of CCP shitting his balancing ?"

ps : no i'm not a ccp alt :P
don't want to ask this question on o-forum cause some fanboy may quote it out of context and after say any MT is good... :ohnoes:

edit : obix may consider my question against his view of "can be fixed without it", but here the goal is to fix plex stocks, not to fix items themselves.

it's a tricky question, given on theory it seems pretty good, but can be easily crushed on practical level :/
(pretty sure this is the view of Akita T currently, as i was surprised seeing him saying MT can be okay while handled well)

Gorion Wassenar
June 27 2011, 08:01:04 PM
Okay okay, the CSM will throw the Monocle of Doom into the Volcano first, but then they definitely have to go to Nonni's.

Bizazedo
June 27 2011, 08:12:48 PM
was just wondering about something while trying to answer a ccp fanboy who had a brain.
i happened to remember what someone said some days ago :

if it was possible to buy BPO of current ships, for AUR, would it be an issue ?

you need to add a lot of limitations to something like that :
- item must be identical
- price on aurum must not be less than npc price on isk
- special bpo (like ORE who are limited to one region, and so have a interest even raw) must be excluded
It removes an ISK sink. So, instead of spending ISK for the BPO, you get the BPO + get to keep the ISK and use it on something else.

It's basically the equivalent of buying / creating ISK out of thin air + CCP doesn't have to redeem game time.

So, then you default to the argument of why creating ISK or items out of thin air is bad.

dzajic
June 27 2011, 08:15:39 PM
Edit.

In light of recent "financial revelations" community managed to dig out. I saw a nice idea on EVEO.

CCP should create a "Donate to CCP" option. Maybe with both PLEX and direct CC payments. Considering how thin they run they should give up on their delusions of grandeur and show some humility.
Forget ISK for Japan, CCP and EVE are in bigger danger! So "PLEX for CCP" and $$$ donations.

I have to wonder how hurt will CCPs pride be to see community suggesting that to them.

And ofc ultimate option of just raising the sub a little. 15->16?

Zoidberg
June 27 2011, 09:03:19 PM
Edit.

In light of recent "financial revelations" community managed to dig out. I saw a nice idea on EVEO.

CCP should create a "Donate to CCP" option. Maybe with both PLEX and direct CC payments. Considering how thin they run they should give up on their delusions of grandeur and show some humility.
Forget ISK for Japan, CCP and EVE are in bigger danger! So "PLEX for CCP" and $$$ donations.

I have to wonder how hurt will CCPs pride be to see community suggesting that to them.

And ofc ultimate option of just raising the sub a little. 15->16?
You know, I bet some people actually would donate. I've seen countless posts on different forums from video game players that basically said they pay for non-desirable collector's editions or MTs just to show "support" for the developer. I don't know how anyone can rationalize effectively "donating" to a massive business, but it seriously annoys me.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 09:08:02 PM
Edit.

In light of recent "financial revelations" community managed to dig out. I saw a nice idea on EVEO.

CCP should create a "Donate to CCP" option. Maybe with both PLEX and direct CC payments. Considering how thin they run they should give up on their delusions of grandeur and show some humility.
Forget ISK for Japan, CCP and EVE are in bigger danger! So "PLEX for CCP" and $$$ donations.

I have to wonder how hurt will CCPs pride be to see community suggesting that to them.

And ofc ultimate option of just raising the sub a little. 15->16?
You know, I bet some people actually would donate. I've seen countless posts on different forums from video game players that basically said they pay for non-desirable collector's editions or MTs just to show "support" for the developer. I don't know how anyone can rationalize effectively "donating" to a massive business, but it seriously annoys me.

i too am extremely angry about what other people do in their spare time with their own money. let me tell you about it!

Bizazedo
June 27 2011, 09:09:02 PM
You know, I bet some people actually would donate. I've seen countless posts on different forums from video game players that basically said they pay for non-desirable collector's editions or MTs just to show "support" for the developer. I don't know how anyone can rationalize effectively "donating" to a massive business, but it seriously annoys me.
Addiction.

Think about it, why would any sane person accept MT systems at all where people who pay have an advantage over you in a game? It'd be like having a little piggy bank when you play someone in chess and being like "sup..for every quarter you give the bank, I remove one of my pawns. $5 removes a Knight."

But you accept it because no one will play you in chess.

It's acceptable due to addiction.

dzajic
June 27 2011, 09:09:34 PM
Compared to any big publisher (there are almost no independent developers left) CCP is financially insignificant. Hell I think Paradox and Stardock could outsize them (as examples of small indie game developers/publishers).

Zoidberg
June 27 2011, 09:14:54 PM
i too am extremely angry about what other people do in their spare time with their own money. let me tell you about it!
Yeah, I know how that sounded, but still... You have to admit how thoroughly bizarre it is to think that money you consciously decide to donate is better off going to a business than a charity or something. I mean, I really can't stand Apple products, so I'd like it if Android, Blackberry, and Windows wiped them off the cell-phone map. But I would never send Google a check for $100 for nothing, so they can just keep fighting Apple. That's exactly what people do when they buy extra-content in games that they admit they do not want, and are just purchasing to "support" the business that made it. It's different if you're going to get some kind of enjoyment out of a microtransaction, or a crappy collector's edition, but the people I'm talking about admit they're not.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 09:17:58 PM
i too am extremely angry about what other people do in their spare time with their own money. let me tell you about it!
Yeah, I know how that sounded, but still... You have to admit how thoroughly bizarre it is to think that money you consciously decide to donate is better off going to a business than a charity or something. I mean, I really can't stand Apple products, so I'd like it if Android, Blackberry, and Windows wiped them off the cell-phone map. But I would never send Google a check for $100 for nothing, so they can just keep fighting Apple. That's exactly what people do when they buy extra-content in games that they admit they do not want, and are just purchasing to "support" the business that made it.
i agree, and its something that MUST BE STOPPED

selling worthless things for high prices and not pressuring people to buy them by using ingame stat bonuses is literally hitler

dzajic
June 27 2011, 09:32:20 PM
selling worthless things for high prices and not pressuring people to buy them by using ingame stat bonuses is literally Hast

Or they can just raise subscription cost for 1 dollar/euro and get ~$4.3 million (and more considering EURO is stronger than $$).
A "Donate" button on https:\\secure.eveonline.com wouldn't hurt neither.
While "PLEX for CCP" would be mostly giving them their own money it would also help.

All without any microtransactions ever.

Madner Kami
June 27 2011, 09:35:52 PM
i agree, and its something that MUST BE STOPPED

selling worthless things for high prices and not pressuring people to buy them by using ingame stat bonuses is literally Hast

I'm starting to like your humor xD

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 09:44:08 PM
selling worthless things for high prices and not pressuring people to buy them by using ingame stat bonuses is literally Hitler

Or they can just raise subscription cost for 1 dollar/euro and get ~$4.3 million (and more considering EURO is stronger than $$).
A "Donate" button on https:\\secure.eveonline.com wouldn't hurt neither.
While "PLEX for CCP" would be mostly giving them their own money it would also help.

All without any microtransactions ever.
you're right. I'm sure that raising the subscription rate for no reason will cause a lot less rage than selling no pressure microtransactions.

Cogs
June 27 2011, 10:20:40 PM
If you succeed in getting them to agree to only vanity items, suggest to them that they change the name of the 'Nobel Exchange (NeX)' to 'Vanity Store' and get them to offiially refer to it as that both ingame and out.

Should be a helpful reminder that the store's for vanity only.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 10:24:37 PM
If you succeed in getting them to agree to only vanity items, suggest to them that they change the name of the 'Nobel Exchange (NeX)' to 'Vanity Store' and get them to offiially refer to it as that both ingame and out.

Should be a helpful reminder that the store's for vanity only.
yes this sounds like an extremely effective solution. future internal discussions will go something like this:

"hey we should sell +9 implants in the cash shop"
"but its called a vanity store! that means we cant!"
"oh, i guess its literally impossible then"

Solanar
June 27 2011, 10:39:08 PM
they should sell the naming of popular systems / stargates, with rates based on how often they were used. You pay for a months name change, and get first chance for renewal, but if you don't renew someone else can buy it.

mazzilliu
June 27 2011, 10:47:31 PM
they should sell the naming of popular systems / stargates, with rates based on how often they were used. You pay for a months name change, and get first chance for renewal, but if you don't renew someone else can buy it.

This reminds me of a scam I used to run back in the day. when we kicked out some alliance from their station, I would rename the station to something pretty close to Ji.ta 4-4 and then jack up the office rent something crazy. Sometimes some inattentive director would pay their office rent for the corp. Wouldn't want to lose the ji.ta office would we?

For some reason the GM's sent all the warnings and nasty letters to my CEO. i didnt even get in any trouble at all. :razor:

raiden55
June 27 2011, 10:56:13 PM
It's basically the equivalent of buying / creating ISK out of thin air + CCP doesn't have to redeem game time.

So, then you default to the argument of why creating ISK or items out of thin air is bad.
hum good point... it will change plex sink to non-isk sink. not sure it would be dangerous, but anyway given that ficancial doc seems to indicate they dont care that much about plex stocks, idea is not important anymore

Raimo
June 27 2011, 11:10:13 PM
If you succeed in getting them to agree to only vanity items, suggest to them that they change the name of the 'Nobel Exchange (NeX)' to 'Vanity Store' and get them to offiially refer to it as that both ingame and out.

Should be a helpful reminder that the store's for vanity only.

Shit this is such a horrible post

Cogs
June 27 2011, 11:12:33 PM
It was meant to be. :cool:

hattifnatt
June 28 2011, 12:29:19 AM
Buy a monocle for less than 60$ and wear that.

Viper Shizzle
June 28 2011, 12:44:55 AM
CSM is not going to iceland due to lack of attendance, hope that helps

drizzcat
June 28 2011, 02:19:13 AM
Can we have a CSM Rep Confirm this please?

zergl
June 28 2011, 02:25:28 AM
Seleene twattered that he can't make it due to RL obligations. Haven't heard of anyone else canceling.

noobcake
June 28 2011, 02:47:32 AM
Seleene twattered that he can't make it due to RL obligations. Haven't heard of anyone else canceling.


in reality CCP shouldve seen that calling an emergency meeting DURING THE WEEK would result in people (even if its only seleene right now) cancelling out. I just dont think that this was well thought out. I know it isnt Ideal, but why cant they have an "emergency meeting" via skype?? Is it absolutely necessary to fly them the fuck out to iceland for what can be discussed perfectly fine through other mediums?

Space Panda
June 28 2011, 02:48:43 AM
prolly cuz some fuck would record the whole thing and release it.

punkboy101
June 28 2011, 02:50:26 AM
prolly cuz some HERO would record the whole thing and release it.

:obama:

noobcake
June 28 2011, 02:51:31 AM
prolly cuz some fuck would record the whole thing and release it.

because all other conversations the CSM have via skype have been released, right?

mazzilliu
June 28 2011, 02:52:32 AM
prolly cuz some fuck would record the whole thing and release it.
in the meetings there is literally nothing stopping somebody from recording the meeting in audio with their laptop.

i think you would be able to figure out who did it if the raw recording was released.... but its not like i havent thought of it.

but during the csm 5 meetings, ccp literally had a camera recording the session and they passed the videos out to us afterwards so we could make transcripts. any csm that wanted recordings could have gotten them

EchoEpsilon23
June 28 2011, 02:54:54 AM
prolly cuz some fuck would record the whole thing and release it.
in the meetings there is literally nothing stopping somebody from recording the meeting in audio with their laptop.

i think you would be able to figure out who did it if the raw recording was released.... but its not like i havent thought of it.

but during the csm 5 meetings, ccp literally had a camera recording the session and they passed the videos out to us afterwards so we could make transcripts. any csm that wanted recordings could have gotten them

they wat

Herschel Yamamoto
June 28 2011, 02:57:26 AM
Can we have a CSM Rep Confirm this please?

I may not be a CSM rep, but I can safely confirm that Viper is trolling you.


prolly cuz some fuck would record the whole thing and release it.

Yeah, but they can do that IRL too.
[youtube:d1zkovkt]vwSiuX-A22g[/youtube:d1zkovkt]

Seleene
June 28 2011, 02:57:54 AM
AFAIK, including the alternates, there are eight or nine guys going.

Reed Tiburon
June 28 2011, 03:05:06 AM
AFAIK, including the alternates, there are eight or nine guys going.
gutted you can't make it, this is like the entire point i voted for you :(

noobcake
June 28 2011, 03:06:15 AM
AFAIK, including the alternates, there are eight or nine guys going.
gutted you can't make it, this is like the entire point i voted for you :(


come on man...you cant really expect him to break prior RL commitments for a video game, can you?

Seleene
June 28 2011, 03:18:58 AM
AFAIK, including the alternates, there are eight or nine guys going.
gutted you can't make it, this is like the entire point i voted for you :(

Yeah, it sucks but the fact that this meeting is even happening is a pretty big deal. There has been a LOT of talking / posting, etc... that led to this and CCP Zulu seems genuinely engaged with making it work. Supposedly I'll be able to Skype into a few of the sessions with the other guys that can't make it. I wish I was going but just too much shit happening and too little notice. :)

EDIT - I think a few of the guys showing up are gonna wear monocles to the first session. :monocledowns:

Lady Spank
June 28 2011, 03:28:54 AM
EDIT - I think a few of the guys showing up are gonna wear monocles to the first session. :monocledowns:

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought that would be brilliantly sarcastic.

Space Panda
June 28 2011, 03:32:46 AM
haha, that rules. i also didn't know the csm held meetings via skype. i was mostly kidding anyway. i would imagine they want the csm to come to iceland to show their sincerity, and tbh, i appreciate the gesture.

punkboy101
June 28 2011, 03:33:20 AM
Perhaps they should also turn up in golf gear with golf clubs, and then beat them to death for using shit analogies that they stole from an EA presentation.

Orimei
June 28 2011, 03:33:47 AM
nice touch.

fake edit: i went to ebay to search a nice model which is worth 70 dollars and realized that i can pay literally only 1.99 (+ shipping ofc) to look like a smug mofo in rl
virtual monocle translates into 35! real monocles :psyccp:

real edit: the monocle costing 3.60 looks much better though, a slight price adjustment for superior style brings us to an exchange rate of ~19 rl monocles for the unreal deal

zergl
June 28 2011, 03:42:56 AM
Seleene twattered that he can't make it due to RL obligations. Haven't heard of anyone else canceling.


in reality CCP shouldve seen that calling an emergency meeting DURING THE WEEK would result in people (even if its only seleene right now) cancelling out. I just dont think that this was well thought out. I know it isnt Ideal, but why cant they have an "emergency meeting" via skype?? Is it absolutely necessary to fly them the fuck out to iceland for what can be discussed perfectly fine through other mediums?


also I like the part where you claim he "Begged you to accept an agreement." like he needs your permission to do anything.
It is 100% true. He arranged for us to fly over for an additional summit and while there personally begged us to support the planned plex for remaps. Of course he didn't need CSM permission but he certainly wanted CSM to publicly support it hence the expense of flying us over and taking us out for expensive meals. I think in total I cost CCP more in free trips to Iceland than I ever paid as a subscriber ;)


Begging via Skype is just not as effective, I'd assume.

Rakshasa The Cat
June 28 2011, 03:43:09 AM
EDIT - I think a few of the guys showing up are gonna wear monocles to the first session. :monocledowns:

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought that would be brilliantly sarcastic.
Only counts if they are $1000 Japanese designer monocles... :monocledowns:

two step
June 28 2011, 05:16:21 AM
I bought a really sweet "steampunk" monocle from the local party store. It came with a hat and a fake moustache, and was only $25. I got a great deal, only half the price of an in game one!

Seriously, if people could please take a look at the new CSM subforum and vote in the giant pile of polls in there, it would be *very* helpful. http://failheap-challenge.com/viewforum.php?f=28

Rakshasa The Cat
June 28 2011, 06:13:56 AM
Will you be keeping the price sticker on that monocle?

Obic
June 28 2011, 06:16:31 AM
Pictures of said monocles must be taken and provided!

Jade Constantine
June 28 2011, 02:45:35 PM
Eve Online General Discussion Thread (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541703)

This can be considered an addendum to my initial post on the subject (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1534552&page=41#1204)
from the EveNews24 "greed is good?" leak thread.

Having had a few days to think about all this and now with anticipation of the upcoming CSM/CCP summit at the end of the week I’d like to expand on my earlier points.

1. End Mandatory Captains Quarters. This is the no-brainer in the equation really. The CSM need to get a commitment from CCP to restore the old hanger environment/functionality and add “disembark to CQ” as an icon choice.

If it takes a month of programming it’s more than worth it. This will immediately deal with the performance/heat issues by allowing Eve players to skip CQ’s until the option is properly optimized while letting new-users (who are likely on just one client) experience the environment. By all means have the NPE start in CQ.

This needs to happen and I’d like an additional undertaking from CCP that they will not ignore SISI feedback on an issue like this in the future.

2. Address NeX/Cash shop in Eve. I like many other players have an instinctive reaction against this thing. My first impulse is to demand “not in my eve” and see it as an unsightly and disgustingly corrupt intrusion into the Eve sandbox. I’m not kidding but in its present form even the Icon in the CQ makes me angry! Nor do I like NeX for “vanity items only” since it’s still doing something to the Eve market that I am not comfortable with. Newer players ask “what is wrong with vanity sales only?” And it’s time to provide a solid answer:

What Vanity sales via Nex does is short-circuit player industry in Eve. The goods on offer are not made by players, they don’t take input from in-game resources, they don’t need blueprints, and they don’t (in short) add anything to the economic simulation. Now that might already sound alarmist but it goes further:

I look at the NeX shop and I fear this is where the grand majority of Incarna “content” will be delivered. I was one of those players initially very sceptical of Incarna when it was announced, but over the last year or so my interest was teased by the notion of player goods; new market categories, illegal venders, etc etc, and I could see this expansion being decent after all. But not if all content is simply delivered by NeX with no meaningful interaction with the player market.

So let’s change that.

Basically I’d like to see all NeX products supplied as Blueprint originals/copies at various levels that require various player-gathered resources to manufacture finished items from. Then you certainly charge 5billion isk / 36,000 aurum for a Monocle blueprint and have input materials set around X figure to allow a new generation of entrepreneurs to build and market monocles to the rich fashion-victims of New Eden without ruining the game.

Deliver the rest of the vanity/expensive clothing/ship decals content of Incarna in the same way and I really don’t have a problem. For bonus points work on allowing customization (research) of the Vanity blueprints to alter the colour of the clothing and you’ve probably got a winner. Ship-decals, corp-alliance logos, all of that stuff – let people buy blueprints and make their own in-game business of providing this service. Widen the game don’t spoil it!

3. But NeX items cannot be the whole of Incarna content.

I think CCP now need to give the community a solid guarantee that for every element of NeX delivered content, there must be X (where X is a multiple) non NeX items of content that are delivered in the traditional way.

Quick example would be the basic clothing for the Avatars – at the moment the “free” clothing options are too limited, uninteresting and not racially or culturally distinctive. CCP should make a commitment to resolve this by increasing the default options as well as introducing NeX store options. (An easy fix right now would be to make all current clothing choices available for free to all characters which would increase the variety at least) but it does need iterating on and simply offering NeX customization to make up for poor default choice of clothing will not cut it.

So I’d like to see this commitment in writing. We pay our subscriptions for these “free content expansions” and its long been a selling point of Eve Online – ensure there is a good balance of free content available and everyone is happy.

4. Now on the really complex issue. MT for gameplay advantage.

It’s easy to get up on the chair and shout “no pay to win in Eve”. “No gameplay changing microtransactions!” But the elephant in the room is DUST 514. This is a MT-based game that is designed from the ground up to have influence on aspects of Eve most notably sovereignty warfare. The sad truth is that game-changing microtransactions ARE coming to Eve as long as Dust 514 finishes development and gets rolled out. And as long as alliance sovereignty fights can be influenced by whose credit card than buy the best tanks for their Dust mercs then the game has changed and changed forever.

So that’s right we’re screwed then?

Well, maybe, After all, can’t you influence sovereignty warfare right now by purchasing a few thousand plex and buying your alliance-mates supercarriers? I think most of us can admit this is the case. But we understand the mechanic and there are limitations – character training, pilot skill, alliance morale, yada yada, money is a factor but it’s not the whole story.

And lacking the story is what makes prospective Eve-impacting MT schemes so horribly stomach-churning. I think CCP now need to be totally honest with the player base about how the Dust 514 MT model will impact Eve Online and increase likely playing costs to parts of our community. Part of me suspects this is why CCP have not provided the definitive “no gamplay advantage MT” guarantee we asked for. They know that Dust 514 will break this promise and they are hedging their bets unwilling to give us the bad news yet while still locked into Dust development.

So on this point I think the only good outcome is full disclosure of the proposed MT system and costs for Dust so we can avoid the $60 monocle fiasco. If at this point CCP came back with a promise that playing DUST 514 competitively would be about the price of World of Tanks and that a top-flight uber spacetank of doom would cost about the same as tier 8 Lowe (around 2 medium domino’s pizzas) then I think we could relax for six months in the knowledge that at least our future space-empires wouldn’t take a second mortgage to defend in merc fees.

Summary in brief - What I’d like to see the CSM seek from CCP in Iceland:

1. Commitment to restore the pre-incarna hanger view as an absolute development priority.

2. Serious consideration given to vanity-items (NeX) being produced as blueprints with player input required for manufacturing finished product.

3. Commitment to a healthy ratio of traditionally-delivered content items over NeX-delivered content items.

4. Get the truth about Dust 514 and come back with a provisional estimation of cost to play. We need to know how this is going to impact our ability to afford and enjoy the game of Eve Online.

I'll be linking this thread to some of my favourite CSMS (*waves at trebor, seleene, meissa, and now white tree*)

And if the coming meeting gets a decent response on these issues I for one would be quite happy with the outcome.

But I would remind CCP this is a serious time for the game all things considered. We are coming to the end of the "18 months" of no real eve-centric development that we were asked to give the developers on trust that things would improve.

Now things need to improve in earnest and new fashions and techniques like MT financial model cannot replace the neccessity for pure good quality content delivered through the subscription model to refine and enhance the gameworld of Eve Online.

This community is now very uncertain about both the direction of the game, and indeed the commitment of CCP to keep improving and adding genuinely free content. Communication needs to improve radically and that doesn't mean CCP doing all the talking and us doing all the listening.

CCP need to start listening to its community and taking feedback seriously to avoid the potential disasters of this summer.

Smuggo
June 28 2011, 03:06:07 PM
I'd like to see them say "stop this silly MT shit now you moronic faggots and return the old hangar view with a 'leave ship' button or we're all resigning".

Probably won't happen though cause internet spaceship politics is alot like real politics, sadly.

whispous
June 28 2011, 03:06:37 PM
I'm sure there's already a thread with discussion about the CSM meeting~~~

Zoidberg
June 28 2011, 03:06:54 PM
3. But NeX items cannot be the whole of Incarna content.

On the subject of making all of Incarna MTs, can I just say how disappointing that would be if it completely lacked traditional gameplay? Does CCP realize this?

Jade Constantine
June 28 2011, 03:12:20 PM
3. But NeX items cannot be the whole of Incarna content.

On the subject of making all of Incarna MTs, can I just say how disappointing that would be if it completely lacked traditional gameplay? Does CCP realize this?

Thats kinda the horrible realization that dawned on me looking at that bloody NeX store button "what if this is all there is every going to be of Incarna?"

And involves a lot of disappontment and anger that the long long development cycle might produce an output that robs us of traditional content delivery.

Zoidberg
June 28 2011, 03:30:04 PM
[quote="Jade Constantine":24rmacoi]
3. But NeX items cannot be the whole of Incarna content.

On the subject of making all of Incarna MTs, can I just say how disappointing that would be if it completely lacked traditional gameplay? Does CCP realize this?

Thats kinda the horrible realization that dawned on me looking at that bloody NeX store button "what if this is all there is every going to be of Incarna?"

And involves a lot of disappontment and anger that the long long development cycle might produce an output that robs us of traditional content delivery.[/quote:24rmacoi]
It'd be nice if we got some word of non-bullshit content for Incarna... and that said non-bullshit would be MT free since it'd presumably affect the game. For example, illegal boosters from black market dealers in Incarna should obviously be 100% MT free.

Trebor Daehdoow
June 28 2011, 03:38:50 PM
Husband > dear, I will be going away for a few days
Wife > where are you going to? why?
Husband > far away, to iceland, Eve wants me
Wife > LOL

My wife FYP

raiden55
June 28 2011, 03:44:08 PM
3. But NeX items cannot be the whole of Incarna content.

On the subject of making all of Incarna MTs, can I just say how disappointing that would be if it completely lacked traditional gameplay? Does CCP realize this?
well simple thing ;

if someone play only for incarna, he'll use MT for his clothes and such
but... he'll also need to pay his monthly fee.

not sure someone will accept that for long...
so there's something obvious for long term incarna : there's must be a way to make ISK with incarna, while only playing incarna.
or one day incarna's player will become bittervet and leave because they need to pay more than others, and can't afford plex with isk xD

Reed Tiburon
June 28 2011, 05:44:23 PM
AFAIK, including the alternates, there are eight or nine guys going.
gutted you can't make it, this is like the entire point i voted for you :(


come on man...you cant really expect him to break prior RL commitments for a video game, can you?
No I completely understand dude, but you have to admit he would be a huge help there. too bad :(


Yeah, it sucks but the fact that this meeting is even happening is a pretty big deal. There has been a LOT of talking / posting, etc... that led to this and CCP Zulu seems genuinely engaged with making it work. Supposedly I'll be able to Skype into a few of the sessions with the other guys that can't make it. I wish I was going but just too much shit happening and too little notice. :)

EDIT - I think a few of the guys showing up are gonna wear monocles to the first session. :monocledowns:
:lol:

Well hopefully it turns out ok. not counting on it though :psyccp:


hey check o-forums ; every time you answer a guy about why plex =/= any MT, another one open a topic with the same question.
when you rage you don't listen. either you rage against or for someone. it's like talking to a wall.
ccp fanboi are talking to a wall
anti MT rager are talking to a wall
playerbase is talking to a wall
csm is talking to a wall
ccp is talking to a wall... cause they didn't get the subject.
and talking to a wall always lead to the same thing : violence.
:(

Obic
June 28 2011, 06:05:49 PM
Which all CSMs are going?

two step
June 28 2011, 06:35:12 PM
Which all CSMs are going?

I know I posted the list elsewhere, but here it is again: Mittens, Draco, Trebor, Meissa, White Tree, Elise, Me, and Darius III.

Zhula
June 28 2011, 07:06:24 PM
CSM, just take look at this:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541933

It's quite obvious what €€P wants. It's an official interview, not some internal stuff.

Zoidberg
June 28 2011, 07:18:51 PM
CSM, just take look at this:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541933

It's quite obvious what €€P wants. It's an official interview, not some internal stuff.
I had trouble understanding the translation, but from I did understand, it sounds bad. I'm not going to cancel my accounts until I hear word from the CSM, but frankly, I'm sick and tired of being jerked around. If CCP wants to implement MTs that affect the game, just tell me now so I can get out and start playing Perpetuum.

Qwert
June 28 2011, 07:23:53 PM
CSM, just take look at this:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541933

It's quite obvious what €€P wants. It's an official interview, not some internal stuff.
Original (http://www.mbl.is/frettir/taekni/2011/06/28/peningar_na_ekki_yfirradum/)
Google Translated (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mbl.is%2Ffrettir%2Fta ekni%2F2011%2F06%2F28%2Fpeningar_na_ekki_yfirradum %2F&sl=is&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)

Links in case thread gets nuked by :psyccp:

:obama:

raiden55
June 28 2011, 07:33:58 PM
Google Translated (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mbl.is%2Ffrettir%2Fta ekni%2F2011%2F06%2F28%2Fpeningar_na_ekki_yfirradum %2F&sl=is&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)
wait you're using google translate as argument ?
you need to use it more often, it can easily change the sense a lot...
and btw i don't get at all what it said here xD

someone talking icelandic here ? xD

dzajic
June 28 2011, 11:28:14 PM
After the .is failarticle. Screw appeasement. Screw white peaces of paper and poor old Chamberlain.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/068/f/4/Not_One_Step_Back_by_SquireJames.jpg

Lallante
June 29 2011, 12:03:52 AM
The only thing to keep in mind is this question (which you should ask CCP at the end of the meeting)

What has changed in CCPs policy towards MTs since the day before incarna launched?

If the answer is "nothing", or some mumbled shit about "communication" or "messaging" or "managing expectations" or whatever, then fuck CCP game over.

Mavolio
June 29 2011, 12:30:56 AM
Any chance the CSM could find out how many man hours went into making those 8 items in the store?

I wonder how much they would have made if they charged $0.50 for the ability to re-skin a ship so it looked like a bee, a pirate ship, made its base colour what ever you wanted or made it so you could write a custom message down the side. Sure they wont have made much on each sale but more people will lose and re-skin 140 ships before they buy a monocle.

thebomby
June 29 2011, 11:22:35 AM
[.... one of those things is that they don't lie outright. ....
I have no idea about CCP in general, but CCP Zulu has consistently lied or messed up in almost every communication to the players. In last year's :18months: threadnaught, he posted how we should understand how "unique" the Dust/EVE thing was. People certainly raged about that but because of :psycsm: making statements as to how Zulu had changed and become their new favourite person, he was now a good guy. Hell, during the last AT I even believed half the shit that he and Torfi were spewing about 99 dorrah and :vision: where he claimed that 99 dorrah wasn't to grab money, but was some sort of IP protection exercise.

Given the recent expose of their financials and their need to look nice for funding and refinancing in the run up to Dust and WoD, that was demonstrably proven to be bullshit.

The same thing, I'm pretty sure, goes for MT and their plans for making extra cash from added in-game services and game-advantage goods. That newsletter wasn't a discussion platform but a executive decision vehicle. It's the same as in most other companies. MT was decided on a while ago, and was certainly in planning when CSM5 was there.

CCP's problem is a fundamental one below the level of all the rage we're currently seeing and believing anything they say is akin to watching one of their promo videos and thinking the game is actually like that.

It's ad to say, but I think the CSM is taken about as seriously by CCP management as the rest of the players are, with the exception that the CSM is sometimes seen as a useful PR tool - like it is now.

The current CSM would be both dumb and mad to accept anything CCP say without proof and CCP isn't going to go back on MT and will almost certainly renege on any statements about non-vanity MT items in the future as soon as they see the shitstorm has worn off and subscriber rates start climbing back again after the current unsub haemorrhage.

Complete and utter waste of time, IMO.

Mynxee
June 30 2011, 12:08:49 AM
Question for CSM folks attending: Are there going to be any discussions with PR folks regarding messaging? I just had a Twitter back-and-forth with CCP Manifest (Ned Coker) which indicates not, but gosh, I'd be surprised if not. Here's the transcript...

CCP Manifest: @ashimame @midmotion There will not be any PR people in attendance #eveonline #tweetfleet

Mynxee: @CCP_Manifest Am curious why not. Don't you help shape the messaging? Isn't poor messaging part of the problem? #eveonline #tweetfleet

MailDropDead: @CCP_Manifest And PR failures are the root of the problem CCP is experiencing. (IMHO)

CCP Manifest: @MailDeadDrop @Mynxee I will combine your two questions/statements and say poor messaging is the root of the problem.

MailDropDead: @CCP_Manifest no great objection from me, but I defy you to list a PR duty that does not require messaging... :-)

Mynxee: @CCP_Manifest That, from YOU of all CCPers! It astounds me even more that PR has no audience planned w/the CSM this week. 0.o @MailDeadDrop

Anyway, am curious why there wouldn't be at least some time with PR folks, or maybe CCP thinks time with Marketing is a good substitute. Probably won't know til later, since I imagine everyone is enroute pretty much by now or there already.

drizzcat
June 30 2011, 12:10:17 AM
I think the CSM should also All Hold up Free Helicty Signs

Zoidberg
June 30 2011, 12:21:13 AM
The current CSM would be both dumb and mad to accept anything CCP say without proof and CCP isn't going to go back on MT and will almost certainly renege on any statements about non-vanity MT items in the future as soon as they see the shitstorm has worn off and subscriber rates start climbing back again after the current unsub haemorrhage.

Complete and utter waste of time, IMO.
You know, if that's true, I'd rather them just be upfront and tell us that there will be non-vanity MTs. I hate being jerked around like this.

Mynxee
June 30 2011, 12:29:28 AM
The current CSM would be both dumb and mad to accept anything CCP say without proof and CCP isn't going to go back on MT and will almost certainly renege on any statements about non-vanity MT items in the future as soon as they see the shitstorm has worn off and subscriber rates start climbing back again after the current unsub haemorrhage.

Complete and utter waste of time, IMO.
You know, if that's true, I'd rather them just be upfront and tell us that there will be non-vanity MTs. I hate being jerked around like this.

I feel the same way. A clear statement that they are leaving the door open to that in future to be considered if/when the business and game environment suggests it will be a good and necessary thing for EVE would be most welcome. End of story. And not *necessarily* the end of EVE (although probably the end of EVE as we know/love it). But as someone suggested elsewhere, if they're going to introduce non-vanity MTs, they would prefer to do it gradually so as to manage the exodus of those opposed. Blurring lines in the vanity --> service --> advantage pathway is one route to that.

noobcake
June 30 2011, 04:34:39 AM
I've asked Virt/Entrox for a CSM subforum here, which hopefully should show up soonish, I would love to get some more feedback from you guys about what you want form CCP at the summit.

you know, the new CSM forum is a good idea....but really, isnt Assembly Hall there for this reason? Why are you trying to further reduce the credibility of that forum by using a 3rd party forum to conjure up ideas to go to CCP with?

Sponk
June 30 2011, 04:56:57 AM
Assembly hall is

a) full of noise
b) full of retards
c) not full of bittervets

This forum takes the ~pulse~ of bittervet army.

noobcake
June 30 2011, 06:10:37 AM
Assembly hall is

a) full of noise
b) full of retards
c) not full of bittervets

This forum takes the ~pulse~ of bittervet army.

i KNOW what assembly hall is. But if the CSM is going to take ideas from THIS forum over the OFFICIAL forums CCP have set up, then whats the point of the official forum subsection?

Sponk
June 30 2011, 06:53:43 AM
A place for pubbies to vent, while the big kids have serious discussion over here.

noobcake
June 30 2011, 07:41:33 AM
A place for pubbies to vent, while the big kids have serious discussion over here.


:lol:

raiden55
June 30 2011, 10:28:37 AM
i KNOW what assembly hall is. But if the CSM is going to take ideas from THIS forum over the OFFICIAL forums CCP have set up, then whats the point of the official forum subsection?
o-forum doesn't have polls.
no choice but to use something else to do them
(of course maybe not here but well...)

Rupert
June 30 2011, 10:44:14 AM
What do we seriously expect the CSM to actually achieve out of all these meetings??

For all the back and forwards that Mittens and Co have with CCP, have we actually had any concrete evidence that ANYTHING the CSM has suggested CCP adopt/change/whatever has actually been implemented??

Or is the entire project just a way for a group of people to get a sneak peak at the inner workings of CCP, position themselves within Eve to take advantage of upcoming patches, feel important, and give CCP a route to improve their PR?

I am honestly just curious as to what the CSM has done... or is capable of doing, as in my experience, negotiations generally require one or both parties to have something the other wants... and since CCP disregard the CSM anyway, I cant really see what leverage they have over CCP. Worst case they come back and say "CCP wont listen to us waah".... some people quit, some people stay, and the circle of Eve continues.

Tafkat
June 30 2011, 12:16:00 PM
I am honestly just curious as to what the CSM has done... or is capable of doing, as in my experience, negotiations generally require one or both parties to have something the other wants... and since CCP disregard the CSM anyway, I cant really see what leverage they have over CCP. Worst case they come back and say "CCP wont listen to us waah".... some people quit, some people stay, and the circle of Eve continues.
In this specific case, I believe the CSM's lever has a tag on it labeled "unsubscriptions to the value of 20-30% of your annual profits"...

Sponk
June 30 2011, 12:52:50 PM
Basically, we want CSM to try hard and win, or destroy eve. P simple.

thatguy
June 30 2011, 01:42:09 PM
Basically, we want CSM to try hard and win, or destroy eve. P simple.
qft

FatFreddy
June 30 2011, 01:44:51 PM
FANATICAL GAMER TERRORISTS UNDER LEADERSHIP OF EX-LAWYER LUNATIC SEIZE GAME DEVELOPER HEADQUARTERS IN REJKJAVIK, ICELAND

Lallante
June 30 2011, 02:54:11 PM
I believe THIS may be relevant to your interests:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2730 (http://www.failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2730)

raiden55
June 30 2011, 07:44:23 PM
CCP started this meeting by saying something incredibly smart. It gave me hope that the entire summit would be a success, but you will have to wait to find out what it was. Suffer, bitches.

@MaxSingularity We did discuss ship spinning with CCP and what I heard pleased me. One of the bright spots. Can't say details. vOv
seems they will give us back the old hangar view, or something similar.
it seems something doable without too much work, and able to apease the crowd.
what do you think ?

Rupert
July 1 2011, 10:00:53 AM
CCP offer to bring back ship spinning until the performance kinks in Incarna are ironed out, but refuse to agree to anything else.

CCP uses monocle-fund to purchase hookers and blow to distract CSM til they leave

CSM claim great victory.

MT for non-vanity introduced within 12months.

:nostradamus:

Zoidberg
July 1 2011, 10:17:54 AM
MT for non-vanity introduced next expansion.

:nostradamus:
That seems more like it.